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Charles1810

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 19:23 PM

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Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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This is something that has always baffled me, but I never asked why. A long time ago I noticed this to be odd to say the least just wanting to hear from the dm staff why this is like this when it goes against Forgotten Realms Lore.

Amia Strong Heart Hafling
Abilities: +2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution;
Armor Class: +2 Dodge;
Skill: +5 Discipline;
Level Adjustment +2

Forgotten Realms Strong Heart Hafling
Default Lightfoot Halfing Stats with the only exception of no+1saving throws to all saves and instead +1bonus feat

Just never understood how this race went from a rogue like race to a +2ecl fighter base race? Unless amia Strong hearts are on steroids.

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Gers

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 19:36 PM

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Joined: 30 Apr 2005
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They are. Why do you think they protect Bendir's well so fiercely? That's where their stash is. :twisted:

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 19:37 PM

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My guess is the stats were either homebrew or that those stats are 3.0, and in 3.5 Strongheart was changed to be the Lightfoot + a feat.

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Charles1810

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 19:42 PM

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Nope those stats are out of my Forgotten Realms 3.0 book.

So ya am guessing just home brewed just wasn't sure if there ever was any specific reasoning for it or just because.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 20:02 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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If it's not Lore; then it should be fixed?

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 20:14 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Not possible. I see Suney on the forum, he was around when this was added. Ask him.

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Glyph

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:12 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

maybe the +2ecl offsets the dex and strength mods, and discipline, the other subraces don't match the books either, but then again in pnp you -could- go to level 40 if you wanted to. imho it is fine how it is, not too extreme, not unbalanced either.

isn't lyle strongheart? >_>

svensk, compare the sidebar to the dm's manual or srd d20, or nwn wiki, and you will find you are not correct this time >_> (3.5)

// on amia it seams the subraces that are avaliable to choose from the list, platinum or no, are more rounded for balance rather than for strict RP and racial qualitys. imo.

Last edited by Glyph on Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:20 PM, edited 3 times in total.

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:13 PM

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'A LOT' of the subraces match the books, imo

AlphaWaves

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:22 PM

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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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I've mentioned this in the past a few times on the forum and in party chat quite liberally.

I don't like how the average "strongheart" is as strong as an average half-orc. More-so than an average human. Also the fighter as preferred class is really all messed up.

Few things that have been said to me on the subject by DMs:

Well, they would be stronger.
- No. they're strong-hearts- not strong arms! They have a different work ethic to lightfoots. One could argue that a traveller has more of a work-out than a Luiren hin.

Fighter offers more variety than just all rogues.
- No. Well, yes & no, but not strictly true. Having a favoured class doesn't mean you stick to it. You can be a dex-based or even strength based lightfoot halflings that work! Are all moon and sun elves wizards?

Tormak's response one time was something like "Amia stronghearts are just different". This I can accept. The DMs have the power to decide this for us for the setting. If Amia Stronghearts are all 30+ STR bodybuilders, then so be it. It makes it difficult to make any references to other things Strongheart related due to it, but it's their decision to make.

Personally I'd like to see them more close to the Stronghearts in the 3.0 Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. That way I might even play one. If the hak allows, I'd suggest making them physiologically like the other halflings (as they should be. i.e. not as strong, and rid of that unsightly +2 AC) and give them that extra feat but at level 2 (after the subrace activation).

But I guess that's only my lowly opinion.

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:23 PM

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Glyph wrote:

isn't lyle strongheart? >_>.

What's that got to do with anything?

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:24 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Amia's stronghearts are just different, yes. Kind of like our Shadow Elves and Snow Elves. Like I said, back in... '06? When all of these subraces were added the team in general was a lot less lore knowledgeable and balance knowledgeable and most of these were added on the basis of "Hey, PCs RP being a srongheart, let's add it, okay here's stats."

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:26 PM

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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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So no possibility of tweeking? Of course, not making any changes retro-active. That would make a lot of Strongy players furious, I'm sure.

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Glyph

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:28 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

he can grapple dwarves and has an intimidate skill in the rediculous. way I read that one is they are built to be tanks rather than casters. also I was wondering if he is, or a lightfoot one.

what we're they like in 3.0? I don't think I have a source for that.

I think I can relate to what tormak is saying aswell, since I started way back with 1st edition (not in the 80's but thats what I started with) all the new races/subraces we're rather confusing. there we're six races total in 1st ed, adding half orcs in adnd (or 2nd ed, or, whatever.) then suddenly there was monster races, I imagine for dnd as a whole that must have been a confusing switch, nevermind implimenting it onto a server. I struggle enough to find the lore now with the 3.5 books. some races its easier than others.

why tweak?

Zinovy

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:29 PM

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Joined: 10 Jun 2010

Quote:

balance

*Giggle.*

TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:43 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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AlphaWaves wrote:

So no possibility of tweeking? Of course, not making any changes retro-active. That would make a lot of Strongy players furious, I'm sure.

Not doable, either way. Either you fix everyone or you fix no one. Strongheart's been this way for going on 4-5 years and fixiing it now incurs an incredible backlog, even more than properly fixing RDD. At this point I'd simply accept that our Stronghearts are just different and balnce wasn't taken into mind much when making the subraces, especially the human regionals.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:47 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Could just add 'Old Strongheart', and 'New Strongheart', and Encourage Old stronghearts to self?

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 21:54 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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After a while, all Old stronghearts would be phased out...

Logicality

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:22 PM

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Joined: 23 Apr 2008
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...but that makes no sense, from an in-character perspective.

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QPR

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:25 PM

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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
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Doesent make much less sense than other rebuilds.

But that said, i rather like the concept of halflings that aren't weak wuzzies. And I especially like Lyle. That little bugger is fearsome, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Don't even know if he is a strongheart to be honest.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:26 PM

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Very_Svensk wrote:

Could just add 'Old Strongheart', and 'New Strongheart', and Encourage Old stronghearts to self?

No. How would you feel, Svensk, if we were to add nerfed versions of every item in the module, but leave the old ones in? Old PCs would "Eventually phase out", and they're "Encouraged" to turn items in, but it isn't mandatory, they can keep them and do as they like.

Not tenable.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:37 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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Well, Since i am the one with the suggestion, I would probably agree onto it. But ... I 'Presume' There would be some slight hesitation, and upset feelings, yes.

TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:38 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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You presume? Let me fill you in then, Svensk: This happened three times in Arelith/Amia's history and there were A LOT of problems.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:40 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
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...Yes i presume? Hell, I can't predict a prophecy of what is to come... Obviously i presume.

So, You've done it and ... Managed to do so, Successfully; Or did it became a hell-o-va Miss-mash?

TormakSaber

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:42 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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"Alot of problems" does not say "successfully" Svensk. Take a giant wild guess. You're not stupid.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:45 PM

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..I had a 'Lot of problems' When i moved to a new Apartment; But i did so successfully, For an example.

Ne-Hepp... Then its out of the question then.
Let us all continue to play the Non-Lore Class and be happy about it, I assume.

QPR

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 22:45 PM

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Joined: 21 Sep 2008
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I'm guessing the birth of Amia. Do I get cake now?

Dwagin

Posted: Tue, Aug 24 2010, 23:03 PM

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Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod

Homebrew is ok.

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 0:45 AM

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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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QPR wrote:

As far as I'm aware, he's a WIS based cleric. Though he was uber strong before the rebuild as a STR based CoT and when he was a WM.

Regardless, you can be a powerful WIS based cleric and be as good if not better than Lyle as a lightfoot. Similarly you can be very strong even with -2 racial STR.

You don't need to have +2 STR to not be a wussie.

And +2 is 4 more STR than what a halfling would/should be. It's unexplainable, freakish and plainly horrible to see people take the race for the STR if not the supernatural +2 AC from gods knows where. And they do. Fact.

Even with -2 STR one can accomplish a lot more through experience levels. 7 more from levels and X amount from Great Strength feats. That's unbelievably high for any halfling as it is. Strongheart or no. But at least it shows there was effort put in. Not just 4 more strength than all other folk of the same physical build.

Biologically there is not a difference between Stronghearts, Lightfoots and Ghostwise halflings, but there is a cultural difference. But no cultural difference can justify why Stronghearts have 4 more STR than the others.

On the matter of the preferred class: Rogue is the most versatile class there is, and this is a reflection of the behaviour of all halfling kind. Naturally there are exceptions, and thus begets halfling fighters. There is no obligation to be a rogue if you have rogue as the favoured kind, but it does make things skew towards it, which fits perfectly. Especially considering their fighting tactics as groups that outflank, not relying on one dwarf-sized "hero" to dev-crit a giant. No. The reliance on numbers and each other is at the heart of all halfling sub-cultures whatever their subrace.

+4 Str (relatively) and +2 AC only encourages these "dire halflings" that make me tetchy (as you can see, I'm sure) and it's something I've always been passionate about.

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Charles1810

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 2:49 AM

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Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Location: Hubbard, Ohio

Mkay, but ya didn't mean to make a heated argument am not trying to aim at a change just wanted to find out lore wise why this was done. I am more then content to say the the dale gives all young strong hearts special herbal tea to make them big and strong.

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Logicality

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 2:55 AM

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Unless I misread, there was no real thought to lore when creating this subrace for Amia. So there's no "lore-wise" reason that they were decided to be as they are.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 2:59 AM

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Logicality wrote:

Unless I misread, there was no real thought to lore when creating this subrace for Amia. So there's no "lore-wise" reason that they were decided to be as they are.

Yups.

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Gunz

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 3:38 AM

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Joined: 01 Jul 2006
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Strangely... I never even thought about how ricockulous it is that Stronghearts have +2, while Lightfoots and Ghostwise have -2. That -is- pretty damn freakish. I can understand maybe a normal 10 start, but damn.... +2? That said, I'm no sure there's much to be done about it without doing a massive overhaul of all the Stronghearts there are.

And no, Willow isn't a Strongheart as base race. I've never played a Strongheart before.

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DustSpray101

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 5:30 AM

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Oh Alpha, you crack me up...
I can see it now....

"... And here we are observing the Dire Halflings running about the dale in their natural habitat. Look out! one slight could upset the whole herd and create a stampede. Lets throw a stick at them and see if we can run faster."

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Bobo_Underhill

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 18:37 PM

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Lyle's a strongheart, partially strength-based cleric. He was based off another character I had who was also a strength-focused lightfoot halfling fighter, specifically created for some campaign. I don't know why he was mentioned, he's a badass because that's how I roleplay him, not because of his strength bonus. Honestly, I'd rather have the two general feats, levels and HP.

Stronghearts on Amia have sort of become an odd case of homebrewedness that the sheer amount of work required to change and implement the subrace makes it infeasible to do.

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 18:53 PM

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If someone directed me to how they're done I could do the work.

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Bobo_Underhill

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 19:00 PM

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You really can't implement the changes among the PCs, realistically, even if you do script the subrace.

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PaladinOfSune

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 19:03 PM

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Joined: 15 Dec 2004
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This was their original stat modifiers on Arelith. At a guess, I'd say it's because back then they weren't able to use Leto to modify PCs, and because of that, there was really no way of giving them the extra feat. This was the alternative decided upon.

Anyway, the same modifiers were brought across to Amia when we split, and short of changing Aasimar/Tiefling to +1 ECL rather than +2 ECL, we just used the same modifiers when the Letoscript subraces were brought in. Bit too late to change now!

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TormakSaber

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 21:10 PM

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Ahhh, that's right, we used to use the template adjustments as temporary modifers before Letoscript was advanced or before they used letoscript anywyas, to make the subrace adjustments permanent.

Well, there you go then.

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 21:59 PM

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So you can't make a new one, leaving the old ones how they are?

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 22:02 PM

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I Just suggested that, and all I got was a remark ><

NinjaClarinet

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 23:39 PM

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Joined: 12 Jul 2010

Because it's a dumb idea. Why would new halflings be scrawnier than old ones from a continuity standpoint? How is that fair from a mechanical standpoint? If you don't like em don't play em.

AlphaWaves

Posted: Wed, Aug 25 2010, 23:51 PM

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NinjaClarinet wrote:

Why would new halflings be scrawnier than old ones from a continuity standpoint?

Why would current halflings be as muscular as half-orcs from a continuity stand-point?

NinjaClarinet wrote:

How is that fair from a mechanical standpoint?

They're not really that balanced for what they represent including the +2ECL. The Stronghearts as designed in the campaign setting are far more mechanically sound.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 0:36 AM

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It's a dumb idea because it creates tiering and balance issues. I won't be changed unless eveyrone is changed; it doesn't really matter how passionate you are about halflings, i'm afraid.

Quote:

Why would current halflings be as muscular as half-orcs from a continuity stand-point?

Because Our Setting Says So, and the DMs Say So, the ultimate trup card in any lore argument.

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Gravemaskin

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 0:41 AM

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Quote:

Why would current halflings be as muscular as half-orcs from a continuity stand-point?

The same reason Elflings get +2 Dexterity, making them more agile and mobile than most halflings... but then get -5% movement speed penalty.

Just 'cause!

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 0:50 AM

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Gravemaskin wrote:

Quote:

Why would current halflings be as muscular as half-orcs from a continuity stand-point?

The same reason Elflings get +2 Dexterity, making them more agile and mobile than most halflings... but then get -5% movement speed penalty.

Just 'cause!

What? Elflings have +2 Dex just like their +2 elven dex and +2 halfling dex

Halfers have +2 dex, too.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 0:51 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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Still move 5% slower though ,inexplicably. I assume this came from them being small size in PnP and was intended to reflect that smal lraces only move 20 ft a round instead of 30 feet.

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 0:55 AM

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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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I have walked side by side a haling as my elfling and hadn't noticed any difference, strangely. I keep forgetting to mention it. Not that it's important, I guess. I've tested often.

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 14:59 PM

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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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TormakSaber wrote:

Because Our Setting Says So, and the DMs Say So, the ultimate trup card in any lore argument.

It would be nice to have a little blurb about what lore on this matter explains it, like the purpose of the OP.

"Because I say so" is only going to cause trouble. Make something up. Anything. Then I can accept it as lore. Put it in the side panel stuff. All will be good.

Edit:
Here's a possibility:

Arvoreen's Gift: For the Luiren hin dedication to the defense of their home against ogres and the like Arvoreen bestowed a permanent +4 Strength bonus to those of Strongheart descent.

Yondalla's Blessing: Yondalla looks fondly to those that provide so diligently for their fellow halflings. As such, she has granted those with Strongheart descent a +2 Dodge bonus to their AC helping the to avoid any rare mishaps. Yondalla's Blessing also adds a +5 bonus to their discipline checks, though their bodies have suffered much fatigue due to it causing -2 penalty to their constitution.

Utter balls, but it's at least something. There are other creative ways out of it, but please oh please stop with the "because I say so" attitude.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 18:46 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
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There's no need for lore to explain, it because this is How It Is. There's no change, this is standard. One doesn't explain why a lightfoot halfling gets +2 dexterity, or why a Gold Dwarf gets -2 Dexterity instead of -2 charisma.

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AlphaWaves

Posted: Thu, Aug 26 2010, 18:55 PM

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Joined: 16 Jun 2006
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A halfling has +2 dexterity because they are quick, nimble and often agile. moreso than most humans (The standard 'average'). Most of their everyday skills make use of their dexterity, so it is only natural that they have an affinity for it.

Gold Dwarves are much less socially clumsy than their shield counterparts. They are more clever with their blending into race-to-race interaction to make their Charisma more neutral than penalised like their shield cousins. However, while they may be more socially keen, they 'generally' aren't so much in the way of graceful.

It's easy to see why, and to be honest, pretty damn fundamental. The figures aren't arbitrary. And if they are, they can be explained. And should be explained.

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Strong Heart Hafling... WHY?

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