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Dramatic_Prince
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 Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 13:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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BrainSplitter wrote: Additionally; the DC Economy isn't broken in the same manner as the Gold/Loot system. Maybe not, but it's been said before it's neither a perfect nor fair system either. Look at the people with 1000-800 DCs vs those with 1-5 DCs. RealPolice wrote: Reduce rich-poor gap? I'd have to support Tormak's idea on total wipe. _________________ 
Prescia the Pristine Voice
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msheeler
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 13:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Location: eastern USA
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I like this example: The Amian Economy It quite simply and artfully demonstrates the Amian economy. Looking at that example I can see the problem very well. Quite simply the Gold In is greater than the Gold Out, which has lead to the vast growth of the Gold Left. There are many types of solutions that we can use to fix the problem of the growing Gold Left value. There are the solutions that attack the Gold In like changing the loot bins or getting rid of the gold drops from monsters. There are solutions that attack the Gold Left like a gold wipe of all characters or full inventory wipe. Then there are solutions that attack the Gold Out like taxes, or upkeep fees or more money sinks. The way I see it these solutions can be used to fix the economy slowly by making the Gold In less than the Gold Out or quickly by making the Gold In equal to the Gold Out and wiping the Gold Left by some means. Ultimately though a difficult decision needs to be made if it will be fixed - you either have to make treasure/loot/gold harder to find or get, or you have to make systems that force players to spend the gold (and possibly a little of both). There are a number of great suggestions through out this thread that could be put to use, and with a little thought, done so while maintaining a good balance. I think Xavi had a great idea to use this pole to get a good feel for what players would be happiest with. The most popular of these are currently Additional gold sinks, Uncap the respawn Penalty and Gambling / Item recombination which all seem to be in the “attack the Gold Out” category. I then suggest that these be put into the module as soon as possible to see if they do affect the economy positively. Two of these seem relatively easy and to implement - the respawn penalty uncapped and remove resurrection and raise dead in the welcome room, and create some type of item gambling merchant (which might be a bit more involved since it would require some sort of script). The third, Additional gold sinks, is a little vague but there were some pretty nifty ideas for that already like more power for factions/churches gauged on the amount of gold put in their coffers (I sorta like that one) or more rentable homes and a charge to use the rooms in the inns. I still like the idea of gold having a physical weight and physical inventory representation in some form or other and there are some ideas I have not seen put forth yet like NPC merchants with a set amount of gold in their shops so they can not by loot infinitely. Perhaps the NPC shops that offer the higher rates have smaller banks to work with until players buy more from them (like Hil’rash) and shops that have the caps have a vast more amount of gold to buy items with (like the Temple of Waukeen). Last time I set a shop up I think this was a relatively easy thing to implement. Anyways, cheers to everyone and I for one hope to see some, any, or even all of these ideas implemented in the module as soon as possible because I think it will only add to the RP value and the sense of accomplishment the players will get when the attain financial independence  .
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Dramatic_Prince
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 13:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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Murex wrote: If the problem lies in epic boss farmers, why not just make epic loot easier to get? Might as well add a shop selling all the epic loot. 1. You eliminate boss farming altogether. 2. You eliminate people complaining about their god-given right to buy epic loot from the farmers. 3. Bam! You have fixed the prices on one of the root problems forever. _________________
Prescia the Pristine Voice
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msheeler
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 13:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Location: eastern USA
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Dramatic_Prince wrote: BrainSplitter wrote: Additionally; the DC Economy isn't broken in the same manner as the Gold/Loot system. Look at the people with 1000-800 DCs vs those with 1-5 DCs. OMG! sorry, continue on topic.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 14:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: I know, it's scary, but while we won't enforce RP; encouragement is certainly an understatement. This is the most depressing comment I'm read from a DM at least this month. We are a roleplaying server, and we will enforce roleplay, because everything you do here the second you leave the entry is IC. That you would adopt this stance is scary, but not for the reason you suggest it. It may be the last thing I do here, but so help me, Amia will lose the shackles of this ridiculous "RP lite" curse.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Goblin
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 14:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
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What - the grizzly manparts - does that have to do with Amian Economy, Tormak?
That you put forward an OOC solution to the problem and then spout out this level of jibber-jabber just 'screams' hypocrisy. Whether it's the correct view or no.
You also put forward an OOC idea over NPCs and the destruction of faction areas earlier which could also have had some loose ties to the current topic.
_________________
"O God of Earth and Altar,
Bow down and hear our cry,
Our earthly rulers falter,
Our people drift and die,
The walls of gold entomb us,
The swords of scorn divide,
Take not thy thunder from us,
But take away our pride."
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 14:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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You're angry because in my opinion, I don't feel you should be able to walk into a faction base unsupervised, kill all te NPCs and PCS, and say it's destroyed? You'll just have to stay angry them, sorry, because I'm not changing my opinion on that.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 14:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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Amia's version of Spellplague: Goldplague.
Maybe Waukeen has a plan up here sleeve. Or perhaps an extremely bitter alchemist or transmuter had a bad deal in Cordor once and plotted revenge.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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-Cloak-and-Dagger-
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 14:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Feb 2009
Location: England
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Left field suggestion? Rethink the inclusion of the Rust Monster into the new hak. Implement it as a Gold eating epic boss. 
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realpohlice
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 14:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Location: Giving a fuck when it ain't my turn to give a fuck.
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It's evident to me that those who advocate for a vault wipe are the ones who doesn't really want any change to happen. Deep down we all know a wipe is the least likely to happen. It's just polarizing & adding noise to the thread. And the worst part? A wipe doesn't even improve anything to the current system. What improvements will a wipe allow that can't be implemented now?
Seeing as how the topic keeps getting derailed, with an assist from a DM no less, I guess there's little hope left for a positive change.
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msheeler
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 15:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2008
Location: eastern USA
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realpohlice wrote: Seeing as how the topic keeps getting derailed, with an assist from a DM no less, I guess there's little hope left for a positive change. Don't Fret, there is always hope!!!!! If its not solved through the forums perhaps you can do something IC like create a monk/sorcy PC who feels the entire server must take the vow of poverty and then charm them all into giving you their gold so you can dump it into the deepest reaches of the trackless sea
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realpohlice
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 15:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Location: Giving a fuck when it ain't my turn to give a fuck.
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msheeler wrote: Don't Fret, there is always hope!!!!! If its not solved through the forums perhaps you can do something IC like create a monk/sorcy PC who feels the entire server must take the vow of poverty and then charm them all into giving you their gold so you can dump it into the deepest reaches of the trackless sea
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Xaviera
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 15:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
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TormakSaber wrote: II think a tax system is probably one of the most unfun things you could implement. A player has to groan at losing their work every single time they log in. They begin to need to adhere to a schedule of "I need to grin X hours" just to maintain. My projected solution of Wipe It All means you suffer once, and since every other fix was introduced simultaneously, you suffer never again. To which I again reply Xaviera wrote: characters under a tax system who want to keep their cash levels up will hunt - just as they do today. You must must MUST substantially reduce the inflow, by a) eliminating cash drops and b) instituting merchant buy caps. BUT trashing everyone's gold reserves will only slow their regrowth. Farmers will still accumulate more that anyone else and the situation will recreate itself without continuous drains on all characters. Dwagin wrote: This is great for 'Boss farmers'.
Sucks for -real- merchant pc's. Yep I said it. I confess that this is true. Still, there will always be boss farmers. And it's because of boss farmers that the module is in the shape it's in. The money they acquire comes into the system but doesn't leave, and they retain most of it. So the rich get humongously rich and everyone else gets slowly richer by a trickle-down effect (Reaganomics, anyone?). Reducing the inflow only slows the rate at which this occurs, because money still comes in but doesn't leave. Where money sinks are voluntary, they will only remove some of the excess cash. Unless you make everything cost money, in which case you have to script NPC pickpockets, gate tolls, inn room rental costs, equipment upkeep costs, etc. Why not just apply a flat 'ooc tax' to reflect these? if the loss is 1% per RL day, it will take about 3 weeks to lose 20% of cash. The only real solution as far as merchant PCs go is to keep most of their wealth in items (items, gems or perhaps mythals) that can be liquidated for cash if and when necessary and then immediately spent. This will of course bloat merchant inventories even more (which is, I admit, not good). It will also shift the economy to a barter economy rather than a cash economy, but this is often the case for epic items anyway because gold is nearly useless to the people who trade these items (this is status quo). With a continuous across-the-board drain, anyone who wants to preserve a cash balance higher than the 'state-approved stipend' will have to grind/trade/work for that (status quo in that people do this anyway - that's where the problem is coming from in the first place.). Now, Tormak has expressed his apparent displeasure at merchant PCs with lots of cash - I'm not really sure that you can have a merchant PC without a big wallet. Any system that removes wealth from everyone without them actively spending it will prevent characters from having large cash reserves... which is in fact the point of this whole exercise (which is good?). I certainly see the value in having such characters in the game, but they won't exist if it's too hard to profit. The team has to ask themselves if they're prepared to prevent merchant PCs from existing (good or bad, it is the team's decision; perhaps taking a merchant or item trader job might allow extra cash storage, somehow? you can still be a merchant PC but your job choices will have to reflect that). realpohlice wrote: I'd rather have a choice to pick on the upkeep cost that I can maintain than to have everything I worked for wiped out.
[...]
"I need to grind X hours just to maintain," complaints? If he's within the ideal wealth the Devs & DMs have agreed upon, then it's up to you guys to decide how much hours these people need to do to maintain it. You decide. You find the balance that works.
[...]
You'd have a tool. You talk it out amongst yourselves on what you guys would like to see in Amian economy and slowly use your tool to make it happen. Maybe over a 6 month course or even a year. There's no need for drastic changes. This is not an alt account of mine. Really.  AlphaWaves wrote: Amia's version of Spellplague: Goldplague.  _________________  ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 15:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Dramatic_Prince wrote: Maybe not, but it's been said before it's neither a perfect nor fair system either.
Look at the people with 1000-800 DCs vs those with 1-5 DCs.
1,000 Dream Coins? Are you freakin kidding me??? My suspitions were right, it's a consparicy. 
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 15:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Dramatic_Prince wrote: Murex wrote: If the problem lies in epic boss farmers, why not just make epic loot easier to get? Might as well add a shop selling all the epic loot. 1. You eliminate boss farming altogether. 2. You eliminate people complaining about their god-given right to buy epic loot from the farmers. 3. Bam! You have fixed the prices on one of the root problems forever. I'm glad someone else sees the logic in this.
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Dwagin
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 15:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Murex wrote: Dramatic_Prince wrote: Maybe not, but it's been said before it's neither a perfect nor fair system either.
Look at the people with 1000-800 DCs vs those with 1-5 DCs.
1,000 Dream Coins? Are you freakin kidding me??? My suspitions were right, it's a consparicy. If anyone has a chance of having remotely close to that amount of DC's it'd have to be someone who's played every day, since 2005, and gotten a DC every 1.8 of those days. So basically. A DC every 2 days at bare minimum for 5 years straight.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Dramatic_Prince
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 15:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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Murex wrote: Dramatic_Prince wrote: Murex wrote: If the problem lies in epic boss farmers, why not just make epic loot easier to get? Might as well add a shop selling all the epic loot. 1. You eliminate boss farming altogether. 2. You eliminate people complaining about their god-given right to buy epic loot from the farmers. 3. Bam! You have fixed the prices on one of the root problems forever. I'm glad someone else sees the logic in this. 4. Easily to implement gold sink. 5. The said 1% elite who is said to be controlling the non-existant economy, no longer have control. The bad? Nobody really gets screwed over, resulting in a lack of satisfaction. _________________
Prescia the Pristine Voice
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Dwagin
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 16:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Xaviera wrote: Now, Tormak has expressed his apparent displeasure at merchant PCs with lots of cash - I'm not really sure that you can have a merchant PC without a big wallet. I've never once had ANY Dm complain at me for what I've done with Xyrkha/Shark, and I'd wager no one had issue with Othokentir either nor the money either of them had. There's a difference between being a -merchant- and a person which habitually farms and sells loot on epic auctions. Only one I saw that -really- truly wheeled and dealed a bit with both was Sundyr. If I just went out and ground mobs, I could likely have made in 2 weeks, what it took me to collect through earnest trading, profit, and reselling to players over the course of a year worth of merchanting. But You know what? I wouldn't trade it for the world. Why? The RP was great. It was fun, and it allowed me to interact, even if it was briefly with probably more PC's than any other PC I've -ever- made. And maybe all of them I've played over my (Just over! 4 years here) Dramatic_Prince wrote: 4. Easily to implement gold sink.
5. The said 1% elite who is said to be controlling the non-existant economy, no longer have control.
The bad?
Nobody really gets screwed over, resulting in a lack of satisfaction. What would you possibly spend your scads of gold on other than something to get you more? Be serious.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 16:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Final Draft of the BEST solution-
Create a shop that sells all the epic loot.
The good-
1. You eliminate boss farming altogether.
2. You eliminate people complaining about their god-given right to buy epic loot from the farmers.
3. Bam! You have fixed the prices on one of the root problems forever.
4. Easily to implement gold sink.
5. The said 1% elite who is said to be controlling the non-existant economy, no longer have control.
The bad-
Nobody really gets screwed over, resulting in a lack of satisfaction.
(psudo-quote/paraphraise)
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Grymia
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 16:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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The creation of an Epic Loot Shop would be interesting, in concept. However, the issues of balancing creatures/encounters etc. would become an even greater concern, because the loot's more commonly availible thus the end-level monster encounters have to be even tougher or a bit more tweaked to adjust for the gear.
That said, it does take away some of the power from the 1% who hold Amia's academy by the gonads.
The only time I've held even a FRACTION of what some of the higher up folks are reported/rumoured to have was either when I hold/held funds meant for a faction, or a specific RP fundraising reason that ultimately the money was given as part of a plot. I'm not saying anything ill, I'm just saying PCs can have a functionally good life on here without having ruddy scads of gold.
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Xaviera
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 17:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
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Dramatic_Prince wrote: Murex wrote: If the problem lies in epic boss farmers, why not just make epic loot easier to get? Might as well add a shop selling all the epic loot. Oh, and don't forget to award 500,000 xp on character creation.  _________________ ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 17:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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you just, arn't getting it are you? the PLAYER CHARACTER shops are the epic loot shops.
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corypx
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 17:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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if Amia worked more like WoW we would not have such a large gold problem,in WoW some of the best items in the game are crafted by players but the rest of your items you fill out by raiding.
if the job system worked like WoW's professions it would give a reason to do the jobs and because you limited how many job points you can get, more people can join into the economy because we would need the diffrent jobs.
NWN has heavy,medium and light armor types, well in WoW the jobs to make that the armor types are blacksmithing,leatherworking and tailoring, so then you would need a miner for ore and skinner for leather,cloth is WoW is just droped off monsters but in amia a person would weave it.
so thats just 6 jobs people would do to make good items, NWN has rings in WoW thats a jewel crafting,Alchemy and Herbalism for our potions, and alot of other jobs that if useful people could do so it would give them a reason to use the system.(side not, way to many jobs the fail rate and 2min cool down kills it right now)
it would have a economy not based off who can kill what monsters the fastest.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE) 
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hendrack
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 17:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Delevel of everything to level 1, item&gold strip, level 20 max, no epic loot drops, drastic less mundane loot, no consumables (potions etc - only craftable from PCs) - in other words, a drastic drop of power, magic and item level.
If you want to talk serious, something like that is the price you have to pay if you want to give the DMs the necessary control tools to balance the Amian economy. Everything else is arguing in circles.
Do some halfarsed cosmetic change and keep Amia over the top as it is, or step forward and give up the luxury you are used in that setting. You are the players, make up your mind and make a poll about that.
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 18:04 PM |
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Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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please, just watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g85 parts, explains why nothing you do will work long term. wipe WILL NOT (imho) work without other changes. ed: skip to about 2 mins in to skip the intro...(summary: banks invent money 9:10 % of the time. which is why there is such things as trillions IRL.)
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 18:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Of course it won't. No one is proposing a gold wipe without it being accompanied by about half a dozen other changes that would go in simultaneously, changes that require dozens of hours of manpower and would piss off so many people that it's long been deemed as untenable without a massive paradigm change in the player culture on Amia.
A vault wipe has never been considered and will not be considered.
n.b.: No one's going to watch an hour of video in the hopes that you have a point, sorry.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 18:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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well thats kind of..releiving, you know my problem is the math and the uncertainty though right? you can't stop people banking their cash, buying some nice stuff and making a shop, and this will always leave them with somewhat more gold than they began with unless they only trade.
also I imagine knock a zero off mythal crafting costs.
there is a point to the video trust me, the summary I put pretty much explains it without needing to watch, 9:10 of money is invented and loaned, if you actually busted into a bank with half the population they would scream please don't kill us. im not joking.
ed: this is relevant because on amia currently 5:10 % is invented to cover expences of travel and making stuff, or mythal craft, or double what hil'rash would take it for because most shops are naturally halfed by default.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 18:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Err, you want us to lower crafting costs as a way to decrease goldflow? Quote: there is a point to the video trust me, the summary I put pretty much explains it without needing to watch, 9:10 of money is invented and loaned, if you actually busted into a bank with half the population they would scream please don't kill us. im not joking. And yes, I'm aware of the transitionary currency idea. Currency is given and loaned on the idea that behind it all the money exists, and so we begin to trade the concept of money. It evolved from bater system and gold and was the reason for paper money. Instead of handing over a gold bar, yu gave them a piece of paper that could be exchanged for that gold bar. Eventually people came to understand that this piece of paper was worth the gold bar so why exchange it, because then you can use that "gold bar" as further currency. Add in interest, loans, and you can quickly see how society functions off "imaginary money" that isn't really imaginary at all. IT's fascinating but really has no bearing on Amia, imo.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Glyph
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 18:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jun 2010
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you can't decrease gold flow thats my point, flow rate is however many monsters you decide to gank apparently...
value, is what needs to drop, along with cost.
I guess the paper money loans thing isn't so relevant but you can loan people cash with interest, as long as its not over done and classed as twinking.
I say mythals in particular because it costs 30k gold for a greater? and you can fail multiple times. my sword cost 150k to mythal, if you don't drop costs aswell it will take WEEKS to mythal something.
(actually more than 150k, thats how much it would cost if every roll including crafting ingots worked flawlessly, which for me and ascalon it did not.)
(not to mention the vast sums I traded for the mythals in the first place, I had more cash when I was doing that than I do now.)
ed: lol, I have zero craft anything, I had to find a smithy, rolled a 71 on a 70 for the mithril, and mythal failed once or twice. weapon craft is not one of my class skills. finding cash is.
ed2: I give up, fine i'll just make another tank...(rant about how not everyone is a fighter class tank and why ganking is not ecomony....)
Last edited by Glyph on Sun, Aug 15 2010, 19:20 PM, edited 3 times in total.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 19:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Well, don't fail your mythal rolls, then?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 19:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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TormakSaber wrote: This is the most depressing comment I'm read from a DM at least this month. We are a roleplaying server, and we will enforce roleplay, because everything you do here the second you leave the entry is IC. That you would adopt this stance is scary, but not for the reason you suggest it. It may be the last thing I do here, but so help me, Amia will lose the shackles of this ridiculous "RP lite" curse. Make hunting areas longer and limit any one character to entering a hunting area more than once per reset, unless they leave before finishing it. More more repeated grinding, and a more IC sollution. There's little cause for someone to run trough it twice ICly, if you succeed the first time. Then set bosses to always drop 1 epic loot in return and eventually the economy also stabalizes, because everyone can get it. OR switch the epic loot drops with +4 half-epic items, and save true epic items for DM event bosses only. Encurages RP more, discurages repeated grinding.. hinders peopel from grinding endlessly for gold and so on and so on..
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 19:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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People will grind for +4.5 like they will grind for +5, you know, because it's still better than +4.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Gravemaskin
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 20:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Jul 2007
Location: Norway: Home of the Trolls
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TormakSaber wrote: People will grind for +4.5 like they will grind for +5, you know, because it's still better than +4. Also true, but like I suggested limiting hunting areas to once per char, per reset will cut down on the time people can spend there. Unless they have several characters and run trough them every 4 hours. It still cuts down on it all, not just limiting bosses to once per reset, but grinding trough a place at the same time, effectivly cutting down on the number of +4 loot they can get too. Effectivly making gold more rare because of it, without touching the merchants or wiping anything. Maybe instead set epic bosses to drop the gold/yellow items like Darkness does, and keep +5 stuff for DM events only?
_________________
Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 21:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Then we get to the issue of DM Covered Timezones, And Non DM Covered DM Timezones.
Somebody will quickly Cry Wolf.
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Dev Disco
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 21:32 PM |
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HRM Chicken I of Amia
Joined: 02 Jun 2005
Location: Amsterdam
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TormakSaber wrote: Quote: I know, it's scary, but while we won't enforce RP; encouragement is certainly an understatement. This is the most depressing comment I'm read from a DM at least this month. We are a roleplaying server, and we will enforce roleplay, because everything you do here the second you leave the entry is IC. That you would adopt this stance is scary, but not for the reason you suggest it. It may be the last thing I do here, but so help me, Amia will lose the shackles of this ridiculous "RP lite" curse. How do we exactly enforce RP?
_________________
Say 'no' to JSBF!
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corypx
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 21:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Oct 2006
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Dev Disco wrote: TormakSaber wrote: Quote: I know, it's scary, but while we won't enforce RP; encouragement is certainly an understatement. This is the most depressing comment I'm read from a DM at least this month. We are a roleplaying server, and we will enforce roleplay, because everything you do here the second you leave the entry is IC. That you would adopt this stance is scary, but not for the reason you suggest it. It may be the last thing I do here, but so help me, Amia will lose the shackles of this ridiculous "RP lite" curse. How do we exactly enforce RP? I would assume people who talk OOC alot will get informed if they keep it up they will be temp banned, same with metagaming guards,killing NPCs guards, keeping people IC from the most part. _________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
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Selmak
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Posted: Sun, Aug 15 2010, 22:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Dec 2004
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It's not exactly an imposition on players if they have to roleplay. Many of them do that anyway without needing to be badgered.
When one player sees another not roleplaying (or circumventing roleplaying) with no consequences, it seems to them like roleplaying is optional, even if in truth it is not optional. What this does then is decrease what motivation they had to roleplay in the first place. Which isn't so bad until it becomes commonplace, so the only way people get their motivation back is to leave the server and come back after months or years. Or something.
If instead there are usually consequences for not roleplaying or for circumventing roleplaying, then players will always be mindful of those consequences, and will act more responsibly, and avoid the need for consequences in the first place. Result? Everyone just gets on with roleplaying instead of bickering or dragging their feet.
At least, that's the idea. If you want to just order in some Acme Motivators, that would work too.
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realpohlice
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Aug 2010
Location: Giving a fuck when it ain't my turn to give a fuck.
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Murex wrote: Create a shop that sells all the epic loot.
3. Bam! You have fixed the prices on one of the root problems forever.
5. The said 1% elite who is said to be controlling the non-existant economy, no longer have control. Wrong. You haven't done anything to stop the spiraling inflation problem. Do you understand that the reason epic loots are so expensive is because of too much gold is left in the economy? Rising cost of epic loots is an effect of inflation. And the 1% elite? Still the elite. They're far far richer than everybody else still. What's the real measure for the value of gold then? It's set by the Dev & DMs. In general, grander things will become more and more expensive still. A faction base will become more and more expensive. The Dev & DM gold sinks (i.e., elite loot auctions) will still be won for an insane amount of gold & thus controlled by the elites. Think of real money - governments accept them as payment for taxes and so it has value. That is, unless the Dev & DMs completely stopped accepting gold for transactions. Then gold will be utterly useless by then.
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Murex
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Glyph wrote: you just, arn't getting it are you? the PLAYER CHARACTER shops are the epic loot shops. I don't think YOU get it. If epics don't need to bossfarm, they won't be so rich because they could buy everything they need early on at shop that sells all the epic stuff. After they get everything they want, there is no point in much of anything besides pure role-play. A shop that sells epic items has quite a few reasons why it would not just fix the economy, but make it more fun. I hate bossfarming for many reasons, but mainly the reason that it takes 1,000 hours over the course of many months to get what I want. With nobody having to do that, there would be more overall BALANCE.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:13 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Shops are the bane of Amia and it really should have been geared towards a more player based economy to begin with. I don't think adding more shops will fix that.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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player based economy is "I haz epic lootz 2 trade 4 epic lootz" As we have right now. Not entirely, of course. There is some decent trade going on, but then when it does, it gets out of control, and we end up where we are now.
Gold sinks are bad. Bad bad bad! Already mentioned why above. Mundane every day stuff should not cost more than a commoner earns in a lifetime. Ever.
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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No, Gold sinks are great. Taxes are bad. When gold has value, it will be used in a player economy. Currenly there is far too much gold and nothing to spend it on, rendering gold largely worthless and ergo we've devolved to a barter economy.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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When is a house rent or a musical instrument that does nothing but serve its day to day purpose more expensive than magical full plate there's something wrong and immersion breaking. Where do all the commoners live? Where do the minstrels buy their gear? How does anyone advertise?
I remember the commoners complaining that 1 platinum coin was massively over priced for membership into an antiquarian society. Yet there's no outcry when new flats are to let. Why is that?
_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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Murex
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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TormakSaber wrote: Shops are the bane of Amia and it really should have been geared towards a more player based economy to begin with. I don't think adding more shops will fix that. How are shops the bane of Amia? I'm sure there are better games to play for pure role-play than Amia if you hate powerful characters. You must hate other characters gaining levels too (hey- that's not fair!). If you want everything balanced and all characters equal, then why not just eradicate all epic loot and have bosses just drop normal loot instead. Do something with epic loot instead of being someone who points at everything with negativity. You hate powerful characters? Kick them all in the nuts with an epic item shop.
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Gunz
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 0:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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AlphaWaves wrote: When is a house rent or a musical instrument that does nothing but serve its day to day purpose more expensive than magical full plate there's something wrong and immersion breaking. Where do all the commoners live? Where do the minstrels buy their gear? How does anyone advertise?
I remember the commoners complaining that 1 platinum coin was massively over priced for membership into an antiquarian society. Yet there's no outcry when new flats are to let. Why is that? Indeed. I always found that strange too.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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ainjyll
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 1:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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First, there is no perfect system. If there was, it would be in place IRL and the world would have no destitute and poor and then dirty, filthy rich. Outside of a pure communist-style economy there is always going to be a separation of wealth classes.
In a rare connection to the real world, the Amian economy reflects a true principal. Basically, all our characters are on an effort exerted pay scale, just as a car salesman. Those that grind endlessly are the same as the guys that spend all their time out in the lot, working people over to sell more cars. Those that don't put their time into obtaining more wealth with their characters are the guys that sit inside all day in their buddy's office sipping coffee and shooting the breeze.
This is not to say that the Amian economy isn't out of control. It is. However, if someone wishes to devote their time to having their characters obtain massive personal fortunes, that's their business. Just as those that wish to sit in Cordor, or wherever they choose, and talk about fake weather all day have the right to do that.
The problem arises when the people who do not apply as much effort into obtaining what they want begin to feel that they are entitled to what those that do put the effort in. I do think that perhaps if Epic Loot was given set DC prices, then that may convince some to stop grinding endlessly. However, some people enjoy doing that. They like to point and click on red targets and kill things endlessly.
Some of the suggestions made here come dangerously close to punishing people for liking "the grind". I'll admit it, I'm probably about 60%/40% hunting/rp. I do my best to RP while hunting, but I'll admit that I fall into the point, click, point, click, point, click routine as much as anyone else.
The more extreme suggestions (such as a complete wipe) will instantly fix the problem, but only on a temporary level as people work their way towards having what they had before the wipe. The less extreme suggestions (such as a tax) would have a long-term effect, but immediately it wouldn't be felt.
There is one very simple, very pure truth to this whole thing. There has to exist a outflow of gold that equals or at least comes close to equaling the amount of gold that comes into the economy. That is what must be addressed and if the suggestion doesn't do anything to address that problem, then it should be tossed out with the rest of the refuge.
I do believe that realpohlice/Xaviera (pretty much the same idea, just worded differently) have come the closest to suggesting a viable solution. A sliding tax rate based on amount of net worth. Plot items or things marked as stolen could possibly be overlooked in inventories. That would get rid of arrows made by the ammo bags and DC items (I think) being counted towards the tax. If the character runs out of gold, it starts eating kits, then potions, then scrolls and then stops.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Xaviera
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 2:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
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realpohlice wrote: What's the real measure for the value of gold then? It's set by the Dev & DMs. In general, grander things will become more and more expensive still. A faction base will become more and more expensive. As an example, the Temple of Love cost 1 M gp when it was originally constructed, oh, 5 years ago or so? My character merely renovated it and had to spend 8 M as well as acquiring the job system materials to actually do the construction. ainjyll wrote: The problem arises when the people who do not apply as much effort into obtaining what they want begin to feel that they are entitled to what those that do put the effort in. I do think that perhaps if Epic Loot was given set DC prices, then that may convince some to stop grinding endlessly. However, some people enjoy doing that. They like to point and click on red targets and kill things endlessly. I would like to see some of those epic lootz, but I won't unless I grab me a bunch of buddies and do the rounds of the bosses. Absent that, I'm content to sit around and talk about fake weather, and when I do want something spiffy, I can usually buy it with DCs. I dont begrudge the bossfarmers their epic loot either, but when their actions drive prices for everyone else out of control, not because of what they're doing per se, but because the monsters and gold are infinite, then it does become a problem for everyone else. _________________ ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 2:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Murex wrote: TormakSaber wrote: Shops are the bane of Amia and it really should have been geared towards a more player based economy to begin with. I don't think adding more shops will fix that. How are shops the bane of Amia? I'm sure there are better games to play for pure role-play than Amia if you hate powerful characters. You must hate other characters gaining levels too (hey- that's not fair!). If you want everything balanced and all characters equal, then why not just eradicate all epic loot and have bosses just drop normal loot instead. Do something with epic loot instead of being someone who points at everything with negativity. You hate powerful characters? Kick them all in the nuts with an epic item shop. I don't hate powerful characters, I dislike what the culture has done to the idea of gold and money, making it a tool I cannot, as a DM, use satisfactorily to effect the world.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Dramatic_Prince
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 3:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
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realpohlice wrote: Do you understand that the reason epic loots are so expensive is because of too much gold is left in the economy? Rising cost of epic loots is an effect of inflation. If some items cannot be bought it the first place, how is that true? Priceless =/= Expensive. The reason epic loots cost so much, if anyone sells them at all, is because it costs X amount of man hours to get said epic loot. You are paying for the boss farmer's time. Even within the epic loot selection, only about half has tradable value. You'd be lucky to find someone who even wants to waste his useless gold on a wonderforged club. Quote: And the 1% elite? Still the elite. They're far far richer than everybody else still. I fail to see the point here. When gold is worthless and epic loot prices becomes DM controlled. What is it that they have that anyone else doesn't? Who is more elite? DMs or players? AlphaWaves wrote: player based economy is "I haz epic lootz 2 trade 4 epic lootz" See? That's the mindset that seems to be dominant. Selling blank wands and paper scrolls, homebrew potions, crafting wands, the random +4 lootbin items. All those exist, but we choose to focus on the epic loot. Why? Quote: However, the issues of balancing creatures/encounters etc. would become an even greater concern, because the loot's more commonly availible thus the end-level monster encounters have to be even tougher or a bit more tweaked to adjust for the gear. The +5 loot is not balance breaking. It's does no better than any cleric build can do with mundane armour. So unless the existance of the +5 buff spells was not put into consideration, I think it's really a minor concern. _________________
Prescia the Pristine Voice
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brooksthegreat
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Posted: Mon, Aug 16 2010, 3:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jun 2007
Location: Eastern US
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The only time I've ever seen a player economy that really worked well was back on a server I played in which the crafting system was a HUGE part of the experience. You could buy crappy iron weapons from the shops, but they went up as steel, mithril, adamantine, and so forth upwards to bigger and better stuff. Yes, you could find a sword in a drop and once in a blue moon, it might be worthwhile, but most of the good gear came from buying from other players. This held true for armor, weapons, potions, scrolls, and everything else. Basic gear from merchants, but the good stuff required other players.
This is a bit extreme, granted, but I honestly wouldn't mind seeing something more like it in the module. I'd love to be a weapon-smith if I thought that my time and effort would yield something that would have demand. As it is though, between the cost of grabbing the mythals and the price of enchanting, system of enchanting, etc.. I don't think you can create something that can compete with loot drops at most levels.
Players selling to merchants puts more gold into the economy. Get a lively trade economy in, rather than just as a neat RP additive (which it is, and I do enjoy) and the economy will close the circle off. If players with sufficient crafting ability (Master Rank weaponsmithing and full craft weapon or the like) can compete with epic loot, then there is also less reason to grind bosses.
Add gold sinks (i still like the gambling idea) and maybe even reduced amounts of stuff in the lootbin (think more miscellaneous gear or trinkets.. and less stuff that crafters could be making) and you help make it a more circulating economy.
_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order
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