Rouge archer will not have goo-gobs of AC. They will get hit.

Tumble only works on Attacks of Opportunity.

Running away only works if you have a faster base speed, like monk or barbarian. Haste potions are not a great remedy, as it requires a whole round to use and provokes an AoO.

Epic Dodge only works on 1 (successful) attack per round. Even on an unhasted fighter, that leaves another 3 attack that will still hit rogue's middling AC.

There really is no build I can think of that cannot benefit from having a decent Discipline rank. Sooner or later, someone or something will try to KD you.

Anubis....

zen archery?
Or melee...

Didnt see any wf...

Personally i'd drop hellball and go epic summon. If not getting 26 or more wis i woudlnt bother with more then 20 and i'd reallot them other stats/feats.

_________________

The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

my point though is being an archer they shouldn't even get near you to be able to bash, also my current build has no classes where disclipline is a class skill, though it does not include archer in that case. polymorph/shapechange is always a good alternative if you run into a quick tank.

also idk about hellball either, I like the sound of 100d6 against constructs with GR personally. EDK obviously has its benefits.

Rogue(19), Fighter(5), Shadowdancer(6), Kobold

STR: 8
DEX: 20 (28)
CON: 12
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Halfling: (Fearless, Good Aim, Lucky, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Move Silently, Small Stature)
01: Rogue(1): Dodge
02: Rogue(2): {Evasion}
03: Fighter(1): Weapon Focus: Shortbow, Weapon Finesse
04: Rogue(3): DEX+1, {Uncanny Dodge I}, (DEX=21)
05: Rogue(4)
06: Rogue(5): Point Blank Shot
07: Rogue(6)
08: Rogue(7): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
09: Rogue(8): Mobility
10: Shadowdancer(1): {Hide in Plain Sight}
11: Shadowdancer(2): {Darkvision}
12: Shadowdancer(3): DEX+1, Rapid Shot, (DEX=23)
13: Shadowdancer(4)
14: Shadowdancer(5): {Defensive Roll}
15: Shadowdancer(6): Blind Fight
16: Rogue(9): DEX+1, (DEX=24)
17: Rogue(10): Crippling Strike
18: Fighter(2): Improved Critical: Shortbow, Called Shot
19: Fighter(3)
20: Fighter(4): DEX+1, Weapon Specialization: Shortbow, (DEX=25)
21: Rogue(11): Epic Weapon Focus: Shortbow
22: Rogue(12)
23: Rogue(13): Improved Evasion
24: Rogue(14): DEX+1, Great Dexterity I, (DEX=27)
25: Rogue(15)
26: Rogue(16): Epic Skill Focus: Hide
27: Rogue(17): Epic Dodge
28: Rogue(18): DEX+1, (DEX=28)
29: Rogue(19): Epic Skill Focus: Spot
30: Fighter(5): Epic Weapon Specialization: Shortbow

Edit: HiPS being the backup plan, rather than the goal for the character.

_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

you don't get hips at level 1 on amia, the SD part is wrong. however you would still get hips at level 6. (ecl 15)

*looks at the drained stats* powergamer >_<

I was thinking Melee. I thought since he was a Cleric he wouldn't need WF's wioth all his AB buffs.

The Epic spell selection would depend on the RP of the character, which I haven't came up with yet, I just had that build lying around for a while with no char to set it to.

Oh and, the Cleric Bonus feats forced me to 22 WIS, otherwise it would have been extra CHA.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

1. It's just the way that the program has HiPS set up. I know i need to go to 6, which is why he took six levels.

2. Drained stats would be a kobold with strength 4..

3. This is a build thread. about builds. Seriously.

_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

That's a pretty good build Brooks. All I'd think about is swapping out Crippling Strike (Awesome feat, but it only works in Melee) for Skill Mastery, which might be cool for a specialist trapper. Depends how much you put the bow away, I guess.

I don't care if its the powergamers weekly thread -1 wis, cha and str, power gamer.

I didn't know there was a build program I use the character creator mod and read the classes thread in <-- sidebar, to figure it out.

<rant about RP and stats here.>

Huh. Lame. well then. Yar. one rogue bonus feat free. *goes to tinker*

_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

Also, aim for 12Rog/4Ftr/4SD at level 20, to get enough BAB for 4 attacks.

No, it's only powergaming if the character is roleplayed as wise and charismatic. If he or she is a surly reckless git and brooks gamely suffers the IC consequences of this, you have no case. Kobolds are weak as piss, the -1 mod in STR is actually pretty beefy.

It's actually a rather neurotic and fidgity little kobold, truth be told. wisdom and charisma are nowhere near applied >.>

My point having been, to decry "powergamer" in a thread about optimizing builds is silly and pointless. And calling someone a powergamer in a "powergamer's weekly" (creative title, there) thread is ..even more pointless. If you've got an opinion on a build of mine that has something to do with the furthering of said build, please. Do share. Otherwise, it's not terribly constructive or useful for anyone.

_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

and. Lame. Right. forgot about that. ...meh. Wait for HiPS in epic then? *mutter*

_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

29/1. Take bard as your last level to get the ultimate dump. Second last, actually, as you have to take Hellball on level 30.

Seeing you're not going the caster route, WIS 20 is all you'll ever need.

I'd rather go this for feats and stats:

Starting stats (subrace activated):
STR - 14
DEX - 7
CON - 12
INT - 12
WIS - 16
CHA - 15

It is essential for you to get all the skills you need: Tumble30, Concentration33, Discipline33, UMD6, Spellcraft32.

Pre-epic feats would be: Power atk, Div Might, Extend spell, Maximize spell, Div Shield, WF, Blind fight + Imp crit. You can get Knockdown on an item, it isn't much of a loss.

Remember to take Armour skin and the Great Wisdoms as bonus cleric feats: EWF, Armour skin, Mummy Dust (unless you're going with Death domain, then Epic Fort or Epic Prowess), Great Wisdom I, Greater Ruin, Great Wisdom II, Hellball.

So, ending stats ought to be:

STR - 16
DEX - 7
CON - 12
INT - 12
WIS - 20
CHA - 18

Charisma modifier 10 is a very good number for cleric as it settles so nicely with your Extendend Divine Favour.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

'Kay, thanks vereh much.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

There seems to be an implication that powerbuilding and RP are mutually exclusive. Time to disprove that.

I present to you a build designed from the ground up as a character concept rather than a build- a character whose stats I set before ever deciding on a level layout, whose classes are an IC part of his character, and that does nothing short of kick severe ass.

Nerds and nerdettes, I present:

The Drunken Master


Race: Dwarf
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

Ubiquitous to pub stories is the legend of the Drunken Master: an individual who, against all odds, becomes more skilled and deadly with every drink. Stories are exchanged and bar bets are settled, and all seems calm until a portly dwarf in battleworn armor walks in. He pulls a stool at the bar and orders six rounds of whatever they use to kill rats. As he drinks his mood brightens, but the cheer is little more than phantom security. At the slightest provocation the drunken dwarf pulls a well-used and wickedly sharp waraxe from his belt, whips his shield from his back, and lays into anyone in sight with insults as he charges. As he swings he smiles- and to the astonishment of those not fleeing he bursts into merry tavernsong. Now timing his swings to the beat of the shanty, he calls on long-dormant training to pack even more punch with every swing. Foes can do little but be cut down as their skilled attacks are foiled by fortitude brought on by decades of hard drinking and fighting. When the dust settles, the Drunken Master stumbles out of the bar and into the street, just another drunk amongst the crowd.

How the build works:
The build is a curious synergy of Fighter, Bard, and Champion of Torm. Capitalizing on the slew of feats from Fighter and CoT, the Drunken Master has a huge host of combat feats and abilities to handle any situation. Improved Expertise, Improved Disarm, and Improved Knockdown allow a competent player to handle a wide variety of melee scenarios. But the Drunken Master is no slouch against casters either; a base fortitude save of 38 when properly geared ensures not only that Devastating Critical is a much smaller threat in melee, but that many of the most powerful spell effects can be shrugged off as well.

The Drunken Master also carries a slew of anti-magic tools: Protection from Alignment, Balagarn's Iron Horn, and Silence aid the Drunken Master in shutting down opposing mages. With a host of stilled spells, the Drunken Master can cast in full plate (or in the curious situation that his hands are bound!), lending the aid of Darkness, Ultravision, and more to his crushing offensive capacity. Capping it off, the Drunken Master, once per day, can use his Bard Song and Divine Wrath together to gain +7 to AB, +7 to all saves, +5 divine damage, and more on top of having nearly full BAB and all available focuses in his waraxe.

When fully buffed with its own buffs and equipment available ingame, this build can reach a peak AB of 48, a peak AC of 67, and a peak fortitude save of 48 (before bonuses directly to the fort save).

When buffed with True Strike, this build can achieve 67 AC and 58 AB at the same time, effectively dominating most melee matchups.

Strengths:
- Very high HP (560 with +12 to Con gear at full buff).
- Very high AC (67 with Improved Expertise).
- Very high Fort Save (48 idle when geared, not counting direct bonuses from gear).
- Full complement of Spellcraft further improves all spell saves by another +6.
- Full UMD allows use of items not normally available.
- Stilled Bard spellbook allows casting in full plate.
- High AB (48 with its own buffs, 68 with True Strike).
- Strong party character thanks to bard song.
- Can self-enchant weapons up to +4 and keen.
- Has +15 damage on every swing from strength and feat bonuses when geared.
- Self-Haste.
- Taunt is useful against characters without points in concentration (Many melee types).
- Free Lore: the Drunken Master gets a Lore check of 16 by virtue of his race, classes, and intelligence modifier without putting a single point into the skill.

Weaknesses:
- No spot or listen. The Drunken Master is not perceptive at all- he's drunk, after all. If a player wants to focus on detection, listen is advised to take advantage of the Amplify spell.
- Semi-Glass Cannon: the Drunken Master's peak power is only available in short burts. Not a full glass cannon because it still packs a hard punch when not fully buffed and is still a massive damage sponge.
- Weak Will save. Must carry Lesser Mind Blank potions or scrolls.
- Weak Reflex save.
- Taunt skill is too low to be of use against casters.
- Not particularly strong against stealth builds overall.
- Interruptable: The Drunken Master has no concentration check (drunks are easily distracted) and can have his spells disrupted easily.
- Relatively few skill points when compared with other builds.

Starting Stats:
Str: 16. The Drunken Master has spent a lifetime developing his swing to face after face.
Dex: 8. Stumbling over himself half the time, the Drunken Master is more a show of blind fury than a focused attacker.
Con: 16: Veteran of a thousand bar brawls, this cranky warrior is able to take a load of punishment and keep coming.
Wis: 8: What, you expect good decisions while plastered?
Int: 14: Improvisation is the name of the game for the Drunken Master- anything and everything is a weapon in his eyes.
Cha: 13: Though scarred and greying, this old fighter has that charisma only possessed by the beloved town drunk.

Level Progression:

NOTE: "Skills" doesn't mean "take these skills at this level", it means "Have these skills at this point when you're done leveling this level". I highly encourage putting points into the skills as you level.

NOTE 2: These are only the RECOMMENDED skills. Your Drunken Master may have excellent hearing or a talent in weapons or armor manufacture- but you will have to sacrifice one or more of the other skills if you want to move points around.

1: Fighter.
Skills: None.
Feats: Luck of Heroes, Weapon Proficiency: Exotic.

2: Fighter.
Skills: None.
Feats: Knockdown.

3: Fighter.
Skills: None.
Feats: Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe.

4: Fighter.
Attribute: Charisma +1
Skills: None.
Feats: Weapon Specialization: Dwarven Waraxe.

5: Fighter.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.

6: Fighter.
Skills: None.
Feats: Great Fortitude, Expertise.

7: Fighter.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.

8: Champion of Torm.
Attribute: Charisma +1
Skills: None.
Feats: None.

9: Champion of Torm.
Skills: None.
Feats: Toughness, Improved Knockdown.

10: Champion of Torm.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.

11: Champion of Torm.
Skills: None.
Feats: Improved Critical: Dwarven Waraxe.

12: Champion of Torm.
Attribute: Charisma +1
Skills: None.
Feats: Improved Expertise.

13: Champion of Torm.
Skills: None.
Feats: Blind Fight.

14: Champion of Torm.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.

15: Champion of Torm.
Skills: None.
Feats: Skill Focus: Discipline, Disarm.

16: Champion of Torm.
Attribute: Charisma +1
Skills: None.
Feats: None.

17: Bard.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Cure Minor Wounds, Resistance, Daze, Flare.

18: Bard.
Skills: None.
Feats: Still Spell.
Spells: Light, Balagarn's Iron Horn, Grease.

19: Bard.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Protection from Alignment.

20: Bard.
Attribute: Charisma +1
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Darkness, Ultravision.

21: Fighter.
Skills: None.
Feats: Epic Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe, Epic Weapon Specialization, Dwarven Waraxe.

22: Champion of Torm.
Skills: None.
Feats: Armor Skin.

23: Bard.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Amplify, Silence.

24: Bard.
Attribute: Charisma +1
Skills: None.
Feats: Lingering Song.
Spells: None.

25: Bard.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Sound Burst, Haste, Wounding Whispers.

26: Bard.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Keen Edge.

27: Bard.
Skills: Suggested: Tumble, Spellcraft, UMD to 30.
Feats: Epic Fortitude.
Spells: None.

28: Bard.
Attribute: Charisma +1
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Dispel Magic, Improved Invisibility, War Cry (Legend Lore may be more useful since War Cry can't be stilled).

29: Bard.
Skills: None.
Feats: None.
Spells: Dismissal.

30: Bard.
Skills: Suggested: Discipline, Perform to 33, Taunt to 11.
Feats: Epic Prowess.
Spells: None.

Pics of the build in action:
(NOTE: All pics are of the build geared with +12 strength, +12 charisma, and +6 constitution on gear, totals which are all attainable ingame through various means. Different setups may be necessary for different situations)

Standard self-buffs with Bard Song


Standard self-buffs with Bard Song and Divine Wrath


Standard self-buffs with Bard Song, Divine Wrath, and Improved Expertise mode


Buffed saves


With True Strike

I was thinking of Ftr8/CoT10/Bard12 as a rebuild for Bekenkhonsu, although that went for Devcrit.

Quick pointers for an AA build? My last was the monk-based, zen-archer but that is somewhat nerfed now.

So, looking for a new one. Fighter/bard/AA?

What is the best level mix on that? Mostly how many AA?

_________________
Captain William Jackson Malloy of the Debra Sanchez!
also staring:
Elyon Vassius, Paladin of Kelemvor
Kael Jericko, gentleman of fortune.
Marcus Tyberius of the Eternal Order

I was recommended 18 AA lvls a few pages back in this thread (Think it was this one, anyway.)

So Figther10/Bard2/AA18 is likely best, I think. I'm sure someone else will have better input than me though, so I wont bother suggesting feats, lol.

_________________
Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Hear that, almost every commoner on Faerun? You're all powergamers!

That bard/Cot build seems Ok, But doesn't he hit +20Maximum AB Cap?

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The screenshots are right there dude.

#1 Thumb-Rule - The Character sheet lies. It does not count towards the +20AB Cap.

Try testing that build and whacking stuff, Then you check Combat Log what the rolls are.

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Truth.. Rikku gets 58 ab according to log... and has only 50

_________________

The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

My Old Cross-Bow Cleric / Cot got +75AB.

In truth, he had FAR less. Always test the build in game and check Combatlog.

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That booger'll cap at 62 or so then. Still nothing to sneeze at.

I Do believe a Rogue/Weaponmaster/COT could do higher and be more effective.

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13/7/10 epic dodger....

_________________

The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Darn.

But yes, It's quite usefull. High saves and stuff also. And ready to use that 'One day use' of Divine Wrath in order to smite infidels.

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Probably could. But I was making an RP build on the fly. Anything I make for powerbuild-only purposes is reserved for friends.

Wouldn't a bard 16/Fighter 4/CoT10 accomplish the same thing but a bit better?

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

* Just Brainstorming *

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Depends on what you're going for, I suppose. My main priority in any melee build is the BAB which dictates what I call 'idle' performance in melee types- i.e. their unbuffed AB and damage output. I really tend to lean towards character builds with the highest resting AB possible, but it's entirely possible that a higher bard level could output better numbers when buffed.

Rogue would give you:
Sneak damage
More skill points
Two rogue-only feats
Evasion

Bard would get you:
Spells (+5 GMW, keen, haste)
Song (AB, damage, AC)

The only caveat compared to a fuller bard is the lack of Lasting Inspiration, but you can dip into 4 levels of CoT and lose 2 feats and saves for a much longer song if you want.

More for better song and better all day buffs, +5 GMW, etc, as well.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

I looked at a few variants of Bard/CoT/Ftr before settling on that mix. I think it trades off best between resting saves+Devcrit versus being a Bard*, although if you're not tied to the frankly insane decision to go half-orc like I did, Bard16/Ftr4/CoT10 will probably yield Dev on a woodelf.

*I wanted something that played a little different to the zillion other Bards I've driven.

If you want another savesy build that's ready to rock in two rounds, then Barb18/CoT10/Rogue2 is sexy too.

Alright I feel vindicated in that I did some searching around but anyways. I'm looking for a palemaster build prefferably with really ungodly AC. I don't mind being a guy that has to buff my pets and let them do the killing, or having to shop for spells rather than learn them freebie so long as I can be a guy thats super hard to kill >.>;

Also a request to how to max out ac on characters? I don't understand how some people get 60-70+ ac while i'm lucky to get to 52 buffed on a tank


Thanks in advance for responses

_________________
Must I at length the Sword of Justice draw?
Oh curst Effects of necessary Law!
How ill my Fear they by my Mercy scan,
Beware the Fury of a Patient Man
-John Dryden, 1681

Not that I'm a buildmaster, but I have heard that some people, actually many people, used Improved Expertise in their builds to get high AC. There's 10 AC right there, not conflicting with anything else. Add shields, Armor, cloaks, Tumbledump, and buffs, and wa-la! 60-70+ AC right there.

Or I could be sadly mistaken and terribly wrong.

_________________

Bard4/SD10/PM16 Durpari subrace. 18DEX and 18CHA at start, going to 23(then add 2 Great DEX) and 20 by close of play. Rest of stats are 10INT, then 2 to put wherever, but it's seriously gimped whatever you do.

Epic Feats:
21 Great Dex
24 Great Dex
27 Armourskin
30 Epic Dodge

PM13: Epic Enery Resistance. The only thing you can take, alas
PM16: Epic Mage Armour

AC is 67 unbuffed in normal gear, with EMA taking that to 75, I think. EPIC DODGE. Can barely hit anything and will do well to clear the teens for damage when it does, but you asked for uber AC.

Edit: hangon, I forgot that DEX is only 25. 66 and 74, then. A real Bard will add another 10 to cap out Dodge AC, and either a Cleric or an uberloot can +5ify your shield, so you max out at 85.

Improved Expertise is only a good plan when you're in a 20's match anyway.

*slaps Uce*

And really, the best variant for your Drunken Master is actually Bard16/Fighter4/CoT10. After testing it thousands of times with the generic Amian gear, it just worked out the best. That GMW +5 and Mass Haste once a day are just sexy enough. Not to forget duration and bard songiness.

I mean, naturally you're enough a beast alone, but those four bard levels add so much value to you when hunting with even a single partner. Add a few jolly friends and you make a mighty band. However, of course the unconditional favourite in faction based PvP would be something with Bard20, such as Bard20/Fighter4/CoT6. It can achieve feasible saves as well, trust me.

Also there's a half-plate with 0% ASF, which you may find spanking, yet of course Still spell will come in handy when you need the SR plate, for example. Your reflex save isn't weak. Sod all that charisma, 16 is more than enough.

I see your feats need a bit of fixing too. I assure you'll find Maximise and Extend most useful in playing your bardy. Assured +5 STR, CHA and DEX buffs, you'll love it. Extend spell is just to make your most important melee buffs a bit longer, you'll find it cuddly too. So, replace Luck of Heroes with Extend (yes, start with Bard to get more skill points). Great Fort with Maximise and Skill focus (Discipline) with Lingering Song. Lingering Song is indeed endearing with that build.

I would have personally done a lot of things different with the build, such as getting Dev, but it is your build.

P.S. Your anti-magic tools still suck against mages.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Tieflings.

Yes, we all know they're ...Odd.
But i still need a teeny-weeny bit help with a build.

------
Let's start with the concept.


Something that can hold it's own in PvE
Something that can provide a reasonable Income in the future
Something with a Wide variety of skills.

Doesn't 'need' to be melee, Could be Ranged.

Suggestions? Just ..Brainstorm. Anything, At this point i need ideas more than Builds.


// Since the Assassin changes have been mentioned with new Beefyness, i Am interested in Such aspects.

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You will have to actually wait for the beefiness to happen. Otherwise Wizard sounds like your go, really. Has a wide variety of skills and can hold its own in everything.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Mjeh. Not Magic ranged, Something un-magical really.. Or Semi-magical (Since everything is magical in faerun)

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A plain Rogue/Something then. They're a bit tricky in PvE, but can pan it out.

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Hum. Y'mean a ...

30 Rogue?

The pain to level one like that ... *Shudder*

Any other suggestions?

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problem with improved expertise, or power attack, is you get an -10 aswell, +5 ac -5 AB is good enough, you only want improved if you want to stand there while the wizards kill them all while you semi-parry. (though with buffs you'll still be gutting things left and right.)

Said Rogue/Something. You could try out the Rogue/WM/Fighter?

_________________

UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Aye, Thinking of it...

Would an Arcane-Archer/Rogue
Half-Elf(Tiefling) work? Or is that ...weird?

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