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Got an idea for a couple of dwarven wizard Thunder Twins...

Race: Shield Dwarf

Str: 16 -> 20
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 15 -> 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

1) Wizard (1) - Toughness
2) Wizard (2)
3) Wizard (3) - Dodge
4) Wizard (4) - [+1 INT= 16]
5) Wizard (5) - Extend Spell
6) Wizard (6) - Exotic Weapons
7) Wizard (7)
8.) Wizard (8) - [+1 INT= 17]
9) Wizard (9) - Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
10) Wizard (10) - Maximize Spell
11) Wizard (11)
12) Wizard (12) - Blind Fight [+1 INT= 18]
13) Wizard (13)
14) Wizard (14)
15) Dwarven Defender (1) - Knockdown
16) Wizard (15) - Still Spell [+1 INT= 19]
17) Wizard (16)
18) Wizard (17) - Improved Critical: Dwarven Waraxe
19) Wizard (18)
20) Dwarven Defender (2) - [+1 STR= 17]
21) Wizard (19) - Epic Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
22) Wizard (20) - Greater Intelligence= 20
23) Dwarven Defender (3)
24) Wizard (21) - Epic Mage Armor [+1 STR= 18]
25) Wizard (22)
26) Wizard (23) - Mummy Dust
27) Dwarven Defender (4) - Epic Skill Focus: Spot
28) Dwarven Defender (5)
29) Rogue (1)
30) Dwarven Defender - Great Strength= 20

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Tumble, UMD, Craft Armor, Spot. (Yes, I know I'm missing Discipline and should swap Craft Armor for Discipline...but I want to RP as a crafter, so it takes precedence. Though, I'm not super sold on Spot and could swap -that- for Discipline)

Anything I could/should change? Perhaps 5 Dwarven Defender and 2 Rogue for Evasion, I suppose?

Edit: Stupid smiley.

after a little testing I THINK i've discovered your companion scales with caster level. would like confirmation on that one.

I also noticed I can get my crit range to 15-20 with improved crit ^_^ but, whats the feat path for dev crit, and whens it getting nerfed so people can actually stand a chance against it (lol, no really. one shots suck. assassins fine, dev crit? what, you impale me through adamantine? XD) sorry if that killed your buzz but i'm fed up with watching two second duals.

also, there are ingame items which boost (a little) craft skills, I messed up on mine, didn't get enough craft weapon stat before fighter class changed, woops. *gets forging hammer*

...yes. Familiars level up via taking levels in the caster class they're attached to. This is basic NWN.

So what's the deal with 23 cleric/6 fighter/1 rogue?

Heard it nets you high AB as well as AC and dev crit?

Is it possible to take Purple Dragon Knight levels if not being one?

If not, is it possible to use it to simulate some PrC?

Glyph wrote:

after a little testing I THINK i've discovered your companion scales with caster level. would like confirmation on that one.

I also noticed I can get my crit range to 15-20 with improved crit ^_^ but, whats the feat path for dev crit, and whens it getting nerfed so people can actually stand a chance against it (lol, no really. one shots suck. assassins fine, dev crit? what, you impale me through adamantine? XD) sorry if that killed your buzz but i'm fed up with watching two second duals.

also, there are ingame items which boost (a little) craft skills, I messed up on mine, didn't get enough craft weapon stat before fighter class changed, woops. *gets forging hammer*

We discussed Dev Crit many a times allready. My advise: Mythal +3 Fort Saves onto everything.

There are items that boost Craft Armor, and Spellcraft, but few that boost Craft Weapon. My advise: Put 1 point into Craft Armor and Spellcraft, and put a bunch into Craft Weapon. The gear will take care of the rest.

or just get someone to mythal forge it for you, like my crafter PC.

What should my human monks starting stats be pleeeease?! Needs about 11 charisma right? How much intel should I take?

Pure monk? You want enough skill points for at least Discipline, Tumble, and (imo) Concentration (though, I rarely see people use Taunt). And then two more if you want to be sneaky. And I find Listen to be good to have. My (retired) monk has up to 100 Listen at level 25.

A human will get that with 12 INT. 14 could net you Heal, which I find useful until gold isn't an issue. Or, if you're crossclassing, 14 INT would get you UMD and other skills.

As for starting stats, I'm not really into min-maxing so much, so I'll let someone else offer those.

Ive gone with 15 str, 14 dex, 13 con, 8 int, 14 wis, 11 charisma. Skills ive taken tumble, discipline, listen and heal. I wanted him to be more of a kick-in-the-door type monk (going with the draconic theme) so yeah, I think these will suit.

What was your reasoning for 11 charisma? You could take 10 charisma and 14 constitution instead.

I'm taking a sorcerer level so I'd like to be able to use it, haha.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Melee mage stuff

I guess it'll buff then swap to Tenser's, when it isn't just being played as a straight mage in party?

Bear in mind the DwD flanking immunity doesn't work against stealth - they still qualify for Sneak Attacks for the first round on the grounds that they are coming out invisibility. Perhaps that should be non-visibility to avoid confusion with the spell's name.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

buildbuildbuild

We have the Job System if you want to have crafter as your profession. Discipline is just really important; it will prevent you from falling on your arse all the time.

Start with INT 16 and STR 15 to net more skill points. I'd rather toss the remaining points to the craft skills.

P.S. IKD is sheer kickass. Consider abandoning that pretty dwarven axe.

Quote:

Got an idea for a couple of dwarven wizard Thunder Twins...

Race: Shield Dwarf

Str: 16 -> 20
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 15 -> 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

1) Wizard (1) - Toughness
2) Wizard (2)
3) Wizard (3) - Dodge
4) Wizard (4) - [+1 INT= 16]
5) Wizard (5) - Extend Spell
6) Wizard (6) - Exotic Weapons
7) Wizard (7)
8.) Wizard (8) - [+1 INT= 17]
9) Wizard (9) - Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
10) Wizard (10) - Maximize Spell
11) Wizard (11)
12) Wizard (12) - Blind Fight [+1 INT= 18]
13) Wizard (13)
14) Wizard (14)
15) Dwarven Defender (1) - Knockdown
16) Wizard (15) - Still Spell [+1 INT= 19]
17) Wizard (16)
18) Wizard (17) - Improved Critical: Dwarven Waraxe
19) Wizard (18)
20) Dwarven Defender (2) - [+1 STR= 17]
21) Wizard (19) - Epic Weapon Focus: Dwarven Waraxe
22) Wizard (20) - Greater Intelligence= 20
23) Dwarven Defender (3)
24) Wizard (21) - Epic Mage Armor [+1 STR= 18]
25) Wizard (22)
26) Wizard (23) - Mummy Dust
27) Dwarven Defender (4) - Epic Skill Focus: Spot
28) Dwarven Defender (5)
29) Rogue (1)
30) Dwarven Defender - Great Strength= 20

6 dwarven defender isn't really needed as 3/ DR will be rather useless anyway compared to evasion... I am guessing you are going to rely on the 0 spell failure plate and the shield as well since I don't see stillspell in their. Your DCs will be low but you know that already... could be fun for pVm.

Actually with that Dex he's aiming to use the chain without the -str on it.

SLS wrote:

So the advantage of a 19 AA is just it's high AB, and that they get further range then the rogue build? Also what 2d10 AA arrows?

Every AA level adds +1 BAB per level, plus +1 damage/attack every 2 levels.

And there are special AA arrows about that add 2d10 damage, those are AA only arrows and are only handed out by other AA's.

Quote:

Actually with that Dex he's aiming to use the chain without the -str on it.

A Dwarf wearing armor meant for those long ears is no dwarf at all lad! Might as well shave off that beard and start eating grass as well! But, in truth they both offer the same protection 4 ac/+4 dex for the chain and 7 ac/+1 dex for the plate so either one works.

HellScourge wrote:

SLS wrote:

So the advantage of a 19 AA is just it's high AB, and that they get further range then the rogue build? Also what 2d10 AA arrows?

Every AA level adds +1 BAB per level, plus +1 damage/attack every 2 levels.

And there are special AA arrows about that add 2d10 damage, those are AA only arrows and are only handed out by other AA's.

Ah I see, well that explains it, am now actually attempting a HipS AA, seeing how that works out, not liking the 6INT much tho.

Vaylek wrote:

Ive gone with 15 str, 14 dex, 13 con, 8 int, 14 wis, 11 charisma. Skills ive taken tumble, discipline, listen and heal. I wanted him to be more of a kick-in-the-door type monk (going with the draconic theme) so yeah, I think these will suit.

8 int = me no speak so guudz. Drop down to 12 dex, bump con to 14, int to 9. It's not pretty, but at least now you're a step above the Texas education system and even in Bruce Lee films they were able to recite entire lines with clarity. That and IIRC you're susceptible to flat-footed unless you take one of those crazy rogue-type classes, plus your wisdom bonus never goes away, so it's not a huge loss.

Just run through 20 monk, 1 sorc 4 rdd 5 monk. You'll get your double feats on level 30, and at 25 you'll have the 25 str you need for what I'm assuming is overwhelming and dev crit with your final levels, although the overwhelming gives you damage you won't notice and the dev crit will be rare.

Pre-epic: You at least get imp knockdown for free, and you won't be seeing imp disarm with that kind of int. Power Attack, Great Cleave, Blind Fight, Weapon Focus, Imp Crit, and the rest is generic grab bag.

P.S. : Starting levels are going to be hell as a str monk unless you have a friend. My monk took a few weeks just to hit 8, and now I can hardly stomach playing him.

A while back me and a friend played two PC's who were borthers, and monks. The build i created for him was pretty nice, it was:

14/6/10
Monk/SD/BG

I know it's cheezy/lame but w/e dual kamas, anyone wanna help me with the feats? pre-epic and epic would be nice!, and perhaps leveling order, thanks!

Your build makes me interested in another concept.

15Monk/15Paladin.

D'ya think it's doable?

Edit: hrm. Might have to reconsider since 16Monk = 1d20 Fists.

Edit 2 :: Its not working. I'll forget it.

I'd just rather go with 20/10 for example. There's nothing that great the 5 monk levels net you to abandon +5 CL and spells.

Freezey: go BG13/Monk10/SD7 or BG16/Monk10/Fighter4 if STR based. Sneaking might not be the salvation at all points; you'll be really, really starved on feats. This means you'll never have the truly efficient stealth mode, but you're a BG with Epic Dodge, so you ought to survive.

I'd personally prefer to play BG16/Rogue13/Ranger1 over that.

20 Paladin, 10 Monk?

Well, It's not -that- Powergamey...

Nope. You could also go Pally20/Monk6/Fighter4. There's also the cheesy kamawhore with a Ranger level.

Vaylek wrote:

I'm taking a sorcerer level so I'd like to be able to use it, haha.

You copycat! :mrgreen:

Anyway the question is, I am failing to understand how DR stacking works. Say that I have DwD with 21/- DR. If I add perfect mythal to armor for stoneskin, would it stack?

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:

6 dwarven defender isn't really needed as 3/ DR will be rather useless anyway compared to evasion... I am guessing you are going to rely on the 0 spell failure plate and the shield as well since I don't see stillspell in their. Your DCs will be low but you know that already... could be fun for pVm.

Still Spell is in there. Wizard level 15. He'll be casting everything out of Still Spell until he gets the UMD to use the 0 spell failure armor.

___________________

As for Vaylek's monk idea, if he's going 10 RDD, you won't need 11 Charisma because you'll get +2 at RDD 10.

There are 3 kinds of Damage Restitance/Reduction.

Feats, from Dwarves, Barbarians, and Epic Damage Reduction 1-3, all pile on top of each other, to end up with something like your 21/-.

Damage Restiance from items - Eg, a Tower Shield with 5/- Slashing Damage Resitance also stacks with this. But in the case of multiple items with DR to the same kind of damage, only the highest counts. A sheild with 5/- Slashing Resistance and a helmet with 5/- Slashing Resistance would still only give 26/- Resistance to Slashing Damage to the same guy. There are a few items with different types of Damage Resistance to give a good spread.

Stoneskin, Premonition, Shadow Shield, etc - Damage Reduction - is a whole other thing. Mythalling 5/+5 Damage Reduction onto some armour with give you another 5 points of damage reduced from every attack that doesnt come from a +5 Weapon or better. These effects don't stack with each other, but can exist at the same time as a backup. If you drink a Potion of Stoneskin (10/+5), that would override the Mythalled quality and reduce damage by 10 points, but when the stone is smashed off your 5/+5 would still be there waiting to knock off 5.

Damage Reduction stacks with Damage Resistance. This guy would be losing 31 points of damage - 21 from his feats, 5 from his DR item, and 5 from his armour, from every attack that comes from a crappy slashing weapon.

the build i posted would be dex based, it deals decent amounts of damage with decent APR, and i believe it netted Epic Dodge, along with BG abilites it can do some work.

I realise that you can get spell penetration on certain items but is it worth going for epic spell penetration through feats instead?

also which two metamagics should I get if I do this method? i'm liking quicken, and i'd go with still but silent delayed fireball is a sexy combo.

When only two metamagics can be selected, the answer is ALWAYS Extend and MAximize.

Would the good domain allow you to turn tieflings?

Yep. Genasi too. And Aasimar.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Damage Reduction stacks with Damage Resistance. This guy would be losing 31 points of damage - 21 from his feats, 5 from his DR item, and 5 from his armour, from every attack that comes from a crappy slashing weapon.

No, feat DR is apparently implemented as +21/x, where x is determined by feats. That stump's +5/5 will be overwritten by the DR from DwD10.

Here's a build I'm looking at, and I'm not interested in AC whatsoever.

Half-Elf

15 Str
12 Dex
12 Con
14 Int
14 Wis
10 Cha

25 Ranger 4 Fighter 1 Assassin

(Not bothering with Favored Enemies)
All stat points into strength
Level Progression:
1-20 Ranger
1: Toughness
2
3: WF: Greataxe
4
5
6: KD
7
8
9: Improved Critical: Greataxe
10
11
12: IKD
13
14
15: Blind Fight
16
17
18: Great Fort
19
20

Epic:
21: Fighter: EWF Greataxe, ESF Discipline
22: Fighter: Epic Prowess
23: Fighter
24: Fighter: Epic Fort, Weapon Specialization: Greataxe
25: Ranger
26: Ranger
27: Assassin: Great Strength 1
28: Ranger
29: Ranger
30: Ranger: Great Strength 2, Bane of Enemies

Ending with 24 Strength (Base)

Thoughts based purely on damaging and whatnot.

172 Skillpoints, Sunk in Hide, MS, Spot, Discipline
20 in heal
20 Points Left over

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

buildbuildbuild

We have the Job System if you want to have crafter as your profession. Discipline is just really important; it will prevent you from falling on your arse all the time.

Start with INT 16 and STR 15 to net more skill points. I'd rather toss the remaining points to the craft skills.

P.S. IKD is sheer kickass. Consider abandoning that pretty dwarven axe.

Hm. Only way to get IKD is to take WF in a Wizard-only weapon, it seems. I don't qualify for IKD or Martial Weapons until level 15, and I'd be dropping a feat before then, with nothing to fill the gap with.

Crimmage wrote:

Here's a build I'm looking at, and I'm not interested in AC whatsoever.
25 Ranger 4 Fighter 1 Assassin

Thoughts based purely on damaging and whatnot.

Dualwield. The more damage you get that's not from STR-mod, the better it is to dualwield, and since you're going to the get the feat for it free anyway...

The Dualwield feat cares about your armour, but the Improved Two Weapon Fighting feat doesn't go byebye when Medium or Heavy armour are equipped, so you just need to get Ambi and TWF from the various items/weapons in the game and you have your six attacks per round. This is a DM sanctioned trick.

I've seen at least one version of this build in action (Opustus' dwarf Ramnius, with the awesome Wooleh as his rothe sidekick) and the two of them throw silly damage/round downrange.

As a A general question to anyone: What would be the top build choices for the monk class if having at least 20 levels of Monk is preferred?

So much talk about monks.....strange how I just made a new one. I'm still trying to figure out a way for a monk do be good at killing monsters/players quickly without having to go with Dev Crit.

how to kill people with monks: engage them in unarmed combat. you win.

ed: the 20 monk is for the diamond thing, I forget its been so long

Murex, explain more what you want and the rp you have planned. There is probaby 1 hundred monk builds with 20 monk that are decent.

Murex wrote:

As a A general question to anyone: What would be the top build choices for the monk class if having at least 20 levels of Monk is preferred?

So much talk about monks.....strange how I just made a new one. I'm still trying to figure out a way for a monk do be good at killing monsters/players quickly without having to go with Dev Crit.

Without Devcrit, Monk 20+ builds really only has one ways of killing players quickly: Quivering Palm. That requires you to gimp your AB by pumping WIS up for the DC until it's in the Devcrit neck of the woods, which still means it'll suck against anyone wearing their Fort-pimping gearset.

The most lethal Monk isn't functionally a Monk, it's just a Sneakwhore that happens to use kamas very flurrily. Rogue19/Monk6/Ftr5, but that obviously falls 14 Monk levels short of your criteria.

It's just the nature of the class: it doesn't *do* quick and brutal fights, it wears things down while barely getting touched. Not very good for a server with Heal potions the way they are here, unless you're in an arena sparring match.

Forcing the issue and going for STR-base and/or Devcrit still doesn't give you a killing machine, it just gives a decent DPS guy with better AC/saves/immunities.

Overall, I say go Monk20/Rogue10 (Epic Dodge) or Monk20/Ftr5 (Devcrit). There's a gap of 5 levels in the latter that you can fill in as you see fit. It'll depend on what race you took and therefore the number of Great STR feats you need. I very heavily advise a level of Rogue or Assassin for UMD on a STR base - I have two and filling out WIS/STR/DEX is a nightmare without Owl's Insight scrolls. In party it's fine since parties without at least one UMD person are so rare. Just buy a bookcase worth of them and dish out to your pals to read at you. Monk21/Ftr8/RogueOrAssn1 will give you room for Great STR, Epic WF+Spec, Armourskin, Over'n'Devcrit.

Just know one thing. Monks are very hard to level until they hit epic. Than you can solo stuff. I went for strength based, rdd/monk. You will have lame ab (like most monks), you will prolly have med. AC (unless if you find someone to buff you), but you can get up to 41 DC on deving and it is very interesting to RP.

Shadowdancer/monk/assassin is a good choice too, if you prefer sneaker. Your death attack DC won't be high, but if you spam an enemy, eventually, they will fail their roll. + if you are using it right, you would be nearly impossible to kill.

No, really. Monks are really easy to level.

And yes, Rangers make Hercules seem gay with their awfully beefy damage output.

Human

28wizard/1fighter/1rogue

STR 12
DEX 8
CON 14
INT 18 (26)
WIS 10
CHA 10

33 Craft Weapon
33 Craft Armor
33 Craft Trap
33 Spellcraft
32 Lore
30 Tumble
30 UMD
30 Set Trap

1 WIZ Scribe Scroll(free), Skill focus: Craft Weapon, Skill Focus: Spellcraft.
2 Fit Exotic Weapon Prof.(RP reasons)
3 WIZ Skill Focus: Craft Trap
4 WIZ
5 WIZ
6 WIZ Brew Potion, Extend Spell (wiz feat)
7 WIZ
8 WIZ
9 WIZ Spell Penetration
10 WIZ
11 WIZ Craft Wand (wiz feat)
12 WIZ Greater Spell Penetration
13 WIZ
14 WIZ
15 WIZ Great Fort. (?)
16 WIZ Maximize Spell
17 WIZ
18 WIZ Toughness (?)
19 WIZ
20 WIZ
21 WIZ Great Intelligence 1, Epic Spell Penetration (Wiz feat)
22 WIZ
23 WIZ
24 WIZ Epic Skill Focus: Craft Weapon, Epic Spell: Mummy Dust (wiz feat)
25 WIZ
26 WIZ
27 WIZ Epic Skill Focus: Craft Trap, Epic Spell: Mage Armor (wiz feat)
28 Rog
29 WIZ
30 WIZ Epic Skill Focus: Spellcraft

=====

RP build for an arcane crafter I'm making, the feats with the (?) next to them, Expertise and Toughness, I just threw in cause I didn't know what to take.
So is there any way to improve on the build without breaking away from the RP concept? Skills Focus and Epic Skill Focus feats are a must, so are the crafting feats.

Some questions:
Should I get Still/Silent Spell?
Is Maximize Spell necessary?
Does Craft Trap actually let you craft traps in Amia? or is it utterly useless? I want him to be a sort of tinkerer and someone who works on devices.
Is 30 set trap enough to handle epic traps?
Is 30 UMD enough to use/learn 9th level scrolls of other classes? eg, learning Owl's Wisdom from a cleric crafted scroll, does that even WORK?
Most importantly, I know you can buy scrolls of many of the spells in Amia from NPCs, but not all of them, so are there any spells I should make sure I take during level up?

---

Was suggested I dump Expertise for Great Fort, so made the change.

Feats you need: Silent, Extend, Empower, Maximise, Spell focus, Greater spell focus, Epic spell focus.

Skills you need: Concentration, Spellcraft, Discipline, Tumble, UMD. You need only UMD 10 for any scroll in the game.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Feats you need: Silent, Extend, Empower, Maximise, Spell focus, Greater spell focus, Epic spell focus.

Skills you need: Concentration, Spellcraft, Discipline, Tumble, UMD. You need only UMD 10 for any scroll in the game.

Err why Empower and Maximize? Also I can't get all of them, as I said it's an RP build, I could work in Discipline tho.

I'd drop Great Fort and swap it for Luck Of heroes. Granted, you have to take luck of heroes at level 1 so you'd have to do some swapping.

SLS wrote:

Err why Empower and Maximize? Also I can't get all of them, as I said it's an RP build, I could work in Discipline tho.

You can. Just drop Toughness, Great Fort and the Spell Penetrations.

Huh, luck of heroes is not a bad idea actually, and isn't spell penetration needed for a mage?

Not really. Just dump a Mordenkaines disjunction on your enemies and you shouldn't have much of a problem hitting them with spells.

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