AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Greater Sanctuary is completely useless. Twice in one day I've had two different Drow just Whirlwind with Dev Crit and my wizard dies, even with GS on. They aren't affected by any of the elemental shield spells.

Does anyone have any suggestions? It's getting frustrating trying to do Brog giants or Ilithids and a band of Drow run through, kill my wizard in 2 seconds (even with GS on), then run on in. Since I RP my character as an outsider, it isn't appropriate for my character still remain in that area after he's died, so they just inherit the hunting ground by virtue of killing my character.

You can do two things.

1. Don't stand close enough so they can Dev you with whirlwind attack.
2. Take screen shots and send a -PM- to a DM who will take care of it, since doing this is against the server rules.

But if you bring your PC back anyway, can you just not use Respawn as usual and stay with the hunting ground?

I'm talking to a DM now and he or she isn't clear either in regards to whirlwind and Greater Sanctuary. Is it within the spirit of the spell to also protect against whirlwind, even if the game mechanics don't?

As for the hunting ground, I've assumed that as a serious drawback to playing an outsider. Not only that, but I RP banishment as well if they can get past his protections. It would take at least a few hours for him to get back, and potentially a few weeks. So I generally just allow that person to continue on their way.

If you are hunting, and you are there first, and have not done a full circuit, they need to wait. Period.

Losing PVP does not lose you the grounds, per server rules.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Get Qirlan...oh wait.

AxlLeigh wrote:

If you are hunting, and you are there first, and have not done a full circuit, they need to wait. Period.

Losing PVP does not lose you the grounds, per server rules.

I understand that, but that wouldn't be in the spirit of my character. I don't mind losing a hunting ground as much as dying while using Greater Sanctuary.

In regards to the GS, this has been discussed before, and I believe (correct me if I'm wrong, those who are more knowledgeable than myself) that GS actually takes you out of the physical dimension, therefore immunity to any physical attack, RPly. Mechanically, just stay out of range of meleer's, which is a good idea anyways in any situation that could turn into PvP

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

I think the lore behind GS was changed to "no direct hostile action". I would guess that using Whirlwind against a GSing mage would be considered fine.

What the Moon Brings wrote:

I'm talking to a DM now and he or she isn't clear either in regards to whirlwind and Greater Sanctuary. Is it within the spirit of the spell to also protect against whirlwind, even if the game mechanics don't?

It's not only within the spirit of it, it's a completely legitimate IC way of dealing with it.

All GS does is prevent people/monsters/things from directly choosing to attack you. And making you undetectable to them should they show "hostile intent". But it doesn't take a genius to figure out a major loophole in this spell is that the person in GS can still be hit indirectly, or without express intent. Hench, while in GS, you can still be hit by AoE's and any fighter with half a mind (and Whirlwind) is going to figure out that he can flail wildly(though with no direct intent as he can't even see you) and hit you.

So to answer your question about How a wizard is supposed to protect himself from a Drow, the answer is this: Distance. Distance and Mords.

What the Moon Brings wrote:

AxlLeigh wrote:

If you are hunting, and you are there first, and have not done a full circuit, they need to wait. Period.

Losing PVP does not lose you the grounds, per server rules.

I understand that, but that wouldn't be in the spirit of my character. I don't mind losing a hunting ground as much as dying while using Greater Sanctuary.

The issue with this being, other people ( like, say...me.) /do/ have issue with it. My chars would, and I have issues with people breaking server rules to grind. You need to report it, just because it /is/ a violation of the rules, and if they're breaking this one, they'll break others.

Dark Immolation wrote:

What the Moon Brings wrote:

I'm talking to a DM now and he or she isn't clear either in regards to whirlwind and Greater Sanctuary. Is it within the spirit of the spell to also protect against whirlwind, even if the game mechanics don't?

It's not only within the spirit of it, it's a completely legitimate IC way of dealing with it.

-Explination-

So to answer your question about How a wizard is supposed to protect himself from a Drow, the answer is this: Distance. Distance and Mords.

Sayeth the one more informed than myself, proving me completely wrong. Ignore the inferior information from myself.

What the Moon Brings wrote:

I don't mind losing a hunting ground as much as dying while using Greater Sanctuary.

Ooo boy. Greater Sanctuary does not invulnerability make. As a player who deals extensively with spellswords, I can confirm this on both sides of the mage-melee situation. :wink:

Quote:

The default description of Greater Sanctuary clashes with how it actually works ingame, which often confuses the roleplay surrounding Greater Sanctuary users. So please ignore the description entirely.

An Amia the spell is considered, for RP purposes, to be a save-less version of the level 1 Cleric spell Sanctuary. You are not on (or partially on) the ethereal plane; what the spell does is penetrate any magical or inate supernatural barrier to mind-affects and makes all individuals incapable of choosing to hurt the caster directly. They can still be seen, smelt and heard, but direct hostile action is impossible.

Note that this does not allow you to escape from all roleplayed conflicts: for example city guards can still detain you by other means than physical assault. Locking the city gate, for example.

Furthermore, when in battle(in game mechanics terms, set to Hostile) the spell affects your senses too, making them incapable of detecting the caster unless they have the powerful magical senses of a dragon or Umber Hulk. Even if they have such eyes, they cannot choose to hurt the caster directly.

On an intellectual level, any semi-intelligent character with experience of mages will be able to deduce a GS'd caster is probably in the general area from in-character clues like the existence of summons, or from having seen them cast it in the first place, or from having a friend or summons with 'real' True Seeing, so using area-of-effect spells/feats in PvP is not considered cheating, provided the various purely out-of-character means of locating someone have not been used.

For example, if you have set a Weapon Master to Hostile during a roleplayed conflict and then cast Greater Sanctuary, you are legitimately vulnerable to Whirlwind Attack being spammed while you buff in 'safety.' The WM has 13 INT. He will know you are around somewhere, even if some part of his brain is ignoring the fact his eyes/ears/nose are telling him exactly where that is.

So in short, the spell is pretty much useless.

What the Moon Brings wrote:

So in short, the spell is pretty much useless.

If you're expecting it to make you completely immune to everything that tries to hurt you, Yes.

If you think about it, and use it as a tool and not as much as a crutch, Abso-freakin-lutely No.

*suddenly decides not to take GS*

think I'm stick with improved invis, premenition and time stop thanks

do monsters at least refrain from attacking you or are you vunarable to them aswell? also did this drow see you before you cast? sounds an iffy one

The spell's actually extremely useful as long as you're using it as a tool and not a crutch. Can be everything from an escape spell to a distancing spell. Unless you've REALLY chosen your fights badly, most anything can be beaten with the current GS, assuming you utilize it wisely.

GS , when you get the hang of howi t can be used can be somewhat effective.

Admittedly, what those Drow did was wrong and, TBH should be reported.

Dark Immolation wrote:

If you're expecting it to make you completely immune to everything that tries to hurt you, Yes.

No. However, not even the original GS made you immune to everything. Force based spells (Magic Missile, Greater Missile Swarm, etc.), psionics, and anything ethereal worked against it.

Dark Immolation wrote:

If you think about it, and use it as a tool and not as much as a crutch, Abso-freakin-lutely No.

Nearly everyone has some form of True Seeing which renders it useless even as a tool, at least, that's what I've discovered the hard way.

.........how is "being unable to even want to harm the caster directly" and "vunrable to windmilling" compatible? this spell needs a re think.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Glyph wrote:

.........how is "being unable to even want to harm the caster directly" and "vunrable to windmilling" compatible? this spell needs a re think.

The custom lore is incredibly stupid, what can you do though?

Umberhulk, Shapechange, Shifters and Psuedodragon Familiars are the only way to see a mage in GS. The spell, True Seeing, has been modified so it merely confers See Invisibility, Ultravision, and +10 Spot.

Again; pick your fights.

Re: The Lore. It's not great, but given the spells' mechanics, you try work out something better. It was decided (as a balancing factor) that AoE's and WWA and so forth can still hit someone in GS, so with that in mind, making a working lore was obscenely tricky.

DM's have asked us time and again as players to report violations. If you see someone doing it then screenie and report, nip it in the bud early and will save a lot of problems down the road.

Glyph wrote:

.........how is "being unable to even want to harm the caster directly" and "vunrable to windmilling" compatible? this spell needs a re think.

I don't understand it myself. A whirlwind attack is simply a single attack made around in a circle. It's still directly hitting people. However, for whatever reason, it comes down to intention. If someone intends to hurt someone directly, they can't. For some reason if they intend to hurt someone directly, so long as other people are hurt in the process, it's OK.

this is all very confusing, so...if you know they cast GS and you pass an INT roll you can windmill them but you feel no need to harm them so lock the city gate and wait for it to ware off.......right.....

on the topic at hand I stand by my previous comment, did they see you cast GS or did they just pwn you on purpose? disregarding the charm like part of the lore a moment...

The really short form of it is this;

GS Works Exactly as the merchanics do. AoE's can hit you, including weapon based such as Hail of Arrows and Whirlwind Attack.

What the Moon Brings wrote:

So in short, the spell is pretty much useless.

How can anyone make the claim that GS is useless? I'm sure my Salandran would have disagreed, buffing the party with delicious cleric goodness, and then following, invulnerable, while healing everyone with 100+ HP healkits. GS is an extremely useful spell, and I don't mean to sound elitist when I say if you think it's useless, you're probably not doing it right.

The spell does not make you invulnerable, but is still far from useless.

What the Moon Brings wrote:

Nearly everyone has some form of True Seeing which renders it useless even as a tool, at least, that's what I've discovered the hard way.

You, my friend, are forgetting the #1 principle of being a mage and the answer to your first question.

Distance.

Besides. TS just means they can see you. Which is only a problem if you allow them to get close enough to WW. In which case you have forgotten, you guess it:

Distance.

As for "How does whirlwind rep unintended hitting", well try this. Stand next to someone. Close your eyes. Stick your hands out and spin in a circle. Did you hit them? Yes. Did you see them or know exactly where they were? No. The breakoff with "intent" is that you look at them and make a conscious action to harm them. Flailing "in the dark" so to speak, you don't know where they are, you don't know if they are, you just have a vague idea. The lore is fine, if you try to think about it in the context of what is represented, rather than try to over-analyze it.

They picked the fight, I chose not to fight, so my character went Greater Sancturaried. They cast some sort of spell (with eyes), run over, whirlwind, I die.

The description is contradictory. You can't protect against intention to harm someone, then neglect Hail of Arrows or Whirlwind Attack (or that one Arcane Archer attack where it always finds its target.) There's still intent there, and those attacks are still directly harming the caster, even if the attack is over an area.

I didn't think anything PCs had access to in the way of True Seeing except umberhulk and dragon could see GS (i.e. need to polymorph, in which case you can smack them, or can summon a dragon familiar, in which case you're fighting another mage).

Glyph wrote:

... how is "being unable to even want to harm the caster directly" and "vunrable to windmilling" compatible? this spell needs a re think.

Even though it's probably useless to agree with you (neither the lore nor the machanic is going to change, I suspect), I agree anyway. Whirlwind Attack is not merely "flailing around in a circle and hoping to hit," as someone said... if it were, you'd probably use something substantially less than your full base attack for every strike in the whirlwind. Whirlwind Attackers specifically and intentionally target their weapon at each hostile within reach.

They probably cast it thinking you cast Invis, as many mages do. Unless you actually moved, he was just WWA'ing the location he last saw you, probably assuming you were buffing or something.

And, it's imperfect, but until someone wants to suggest an improvement that takes all factors into account, it stays.

Lizzie wrote:

Glyph wrote:

... how is "being unable to even want to harm the caster directly" and "vunrable to windmilling" compatible? this spell needs a re think.

Even though it's probably useless to agree with you (neither the lore nor the machanic is going to change, I suspect), I agree anyway. Whirlwind Attack is not merely "flailing around in a circle and hoping to hit," as someone said... if it were, you'd probably use something substantially less than your full base attack for every strike in the whirlwind. Whirlwind Attackers specifically and intentionally target their weapon at each hostile within reach.

You've hit the nail on the head, I couldn't quite figure out why this was bugging me so much. It's an intended, direct attack, it just involves multiple targets. Whirlwind is not an area attack like having 30 archers unleash a storm of arrows.

Im willing to bet he had an epic summon out and thus GS doesnt do what he thought it does.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Im willing to bet he had an epic summon out and thus GS doesnt do what he thought it does.

No I did not, just my Floating Eye.

Last edited by Liz on Fri, Jul 23 2010, 6:28 AM, edited 1 time in total.

What the Moon Brings wrote:

You've hit the nail on the head, I couldn't quite figure out why this was bugging me so much. It's an intended, direct attack, it just involves multiple targets. Whirlwind is not an area attack like having 30 archers unleash a storm of arrows.

Thanks for agreeing... a further point occurred to me a few minutes later: If Whirlwind Attack was actually "flailing around and hoping to hit," a Whirlwind Attacker would be just as likely to hit friends as hostiles. Since this is not the case, WWA must involve a specific intent to harm a specific subset of the available targets. Thus, the lore is... flawed.

Use Timestop..... F%$^% Their life up.

The whole point of the spell description as it is now was to attempt to give a justification for the spell being supposed to do exactly what it DOES do in game. What You See Is What You Get. It was created to avoid exactly this kind of "Well, GS SHOULD do this, so you cheated" kind of complaint.

If the drow did not give you an rp out, they need reporting.

If they ran ahead before you left without checking whether you gave them permission to do so, they need reporting.

But the GS rules are as manageable as possible, I think.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Use Timestop..... F%$^% Their life up.

I've never used Time Stop, I was under the impression it didn't do anything because it messed up the server.

Mind effecting magic, meaning that a good warrior probably has the training to "empty their mind" as it were and make the attack while making a point of not doing it for the explicit purpose of hurting the target... Or in the case of raging types like barbarians they really are just flailing angrily.

This is what I am going with at least, as it explains well enough the mechanics and is plausible enough.

Didi wrote:

The whole point of the spell description as it is now was to attempt to give a justification for the spell being supposed to do exactly what it DOES do in game. ... <snip> But the GS rules are as manageable as possible, I think.

I agree with you... I'm not arguing that the spell is flawed. I'm arguing that the lore is flawed. Not really a big deal, but I can see how frustration like the OP's can result.

If you spin around like a spaz with your weapon out because you think someone's magically hiding in that spot, you are intending to do them harm.

"I didn't mean to hurt him by twirling around with these axes, officer!"

BrainSplitter wrote:

They probably cast it thinking you cast Invis, as many mages do. Unless you actually moved, he was just WWA'ing the location he last saw you, probably assuming you were buffing or something.

And, it's imperfect, but until someone wants to suggest an improvement that takes all factors into account, it stays.

How about the spell is an exceptionally powerful version of the invisibility spell, and even for creatures with as grand senses as an umber hulk or a dragon you are still too obscure to be able to hit directly, and they just have the general idea where you are (since we're basing it off a game where a square to aim at is 5ft by ft, there's plenty of room to not be able to hit directly)?

This gets rid of all this arcane 'unable to target you but not quite' business.

What lvl is your eyeball?

Why are you arguing a facet of WWA that no one is contesting? WWA is indeed an intentional attack against all hostile individuals within a 5ft area. It just happens to hit Invisible, Hidden, and Sanctuaried opponents as well, but there's really no explanation for that other than "Mechanics".

I usually just consider it the same as blind-firing with a firearm, really. You can't see your opponent, but you know they're there, so you're not so much shooting -at- them, but you are indeed saying "OK, I'm putting bullets downrange and hoping for the best"

That all said, as i mentioned above. Please don't grumble about the lore if you haven't got a better suggestion of your own.

Didi wrote:

But the GS rules are as manageable as possible, I think.

Can't GS be modified to protect against a specific feat?

It's intentionally susceptible to WWA and Hail of Arrows.

Given Disco's opinion on it, I would imagine it stays as it is, or gets removed altogether.

Not to mention mages do not need more help. This is more about learning to avoid or overcome these situations.

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