AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mk. IV

You get turn undead based on levels, right?

So a level 10 cleric gets 10 Turns?

No. 3 + CHA mod turn attempts. +6 for Extra Turning Feat.

What? 3 Turns per level?

nope, just 3 at cleric 1, and that is all. it can go up with the feat or your charisma, but you don't gain turns with level

No, just 3+Cha Turns. Level 10 Cleric with 18 CHA (+4 Modifier) has 7 attempts. 13 with Extra Turning.

Then i guess this build needs 'improved turning', right?

I'm not planning on having any Charisma, and I don't care for the RDD class.

I had a good Cleric/Fighter/Weapon master character once upon a time who was fun to play, and I just wanted to know if Dev Crit was possible for that combination.

MoshingChris wrote:

If you take Fighter 4 on level 24, 27, 30 you can take weapon spec and epic weapon spec on the same level. So the flat damage is +7. (+1 str + EWS)

The model for that build is 1 - 20 ranger

Then

4 Fighter 5 Ranger and one Rogue in epic.

What do the epic feats look like on this? Dex based version

PS: Would asking which builds among a few is best be off topic here? Asking so I don't get scolded or shamed or anything.

The living doll: Same as STR. Get the needed Bane of Enemies, EWF, EWS, Armour skin, etc.

Murex: Just leave Dev out of it. It's a bit crippled as it is.

I'm rebuilding Gill Bensbennard of the Eternal Order,

His build is... Incomplete, but it was originally going to be 30 cleric, that was a default cleric all the way through except the martial and exotic weapon proficiencies. I'm debating between a good caster or melee cleric build.

Obviously he's a faction character and is going to need to surrvive those conflicts as well.

Svenks... That build is bleh. You dont need maximize spell, you have 10 levels of cleric but only enough wisdom to cast 5th level spells.

Zeborah... Here are your level options, take it from there, build and come back

23 Cleric/ 6 fighter /1 rogue
25 cleric/4 fighter/ 1 rogue
26 cleric/2 fighter/2 rogue
28 cleric/1 rogue(monk)/Ranger(Fighter)

Any of that works.

Uberuce wrote:

For RP purposes it's simply absurd that a dedicated warrior with more than 8 INT would to look at the Rogues they travel with and see such cunning, such use of weapons where anything can be a weapon and not yearn to learn those skills. It also absurd in a world where the gods are known to aid those devout to them in battle that they would not seek the patronage of their chosen diety.

But in a thread for build optimisation and such, it is toffee.

99% of builds are not going to be representations of the character. Heck, it is rare to see a Drow that is bothered by sunlight, some 8 charisma characters will be real charmers. Some will be a very, very long way away from RP, so.. Pure fighter wins all the bonus points. That, or a strength-based wizard heavy on the persuade and bluff skills. Mmm, Bluff.

Extra bonus points if you take the dirty fighting feat.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Svenks... That build is bleh. You dont need maximize spell, you have 10 levels of cleric but only enough wisdom to cast 5th level spells.

Zeborah... Here are your level options, take it from there, build and come back

23 Cleric/ 6 fighter /1 rogue
25 cleric/4 fighter/ 1 rogue
26 cleric/2 fighter/2 rogue
28 cleric/1 rogue(monk)/Ranger(Fighter)

Any of that works.

What do they each do, out of curiosity?

Please read all of page 3 and 4, where your buddy, Svenks's Johnsson, hashed out his build and spewed nonsensical crap everywhere. They each can do just about anything, their friggin clerics.

Better yet, which is better? SPellcaster or Melee cleric? I'll be in alot of conflicts. Sorry, I don't know the first thing about making clerics.

Both are great in their own aspects. I recommend a melee cleric if you are used to fighters and a caster if you are used to casters.

Moon elf
str:12
dex:18(25)
con:12
int:14
wis:8
cha:10

1 rogue: dodge
2 rogue
3 rogue: weapon finesse
4 rogue (4)
5 fighter: mobility
6 fighter: exotic weapon/weap focus
7 fighter
8 fighter(4): weap spec
9 shadowdancer: knockdown
10 shadowdancer
11 shadowdancer
12 shadowdancer: blind fight
13 shadowdancer
14 shadowdancer
15 shadowdancer: stealthy
16 shadowdancer(8)
17 ?
18 ? : imp. knockdown
19 ?
20 ?
21 fighter(5): epic weapon spec
22 shadowdancer
23 shadowdancer(10)
24 shadowdancer: epic hide
25 shadowdancer
26 shadowdancer: epic shadowlord
27 shadowdancer epic ms
28 shadowdancer
29 shadowdancer: epic weapon spec
30 shadowdancer(17) epic dodge

four spaces, 17-20...

4fighter: idk what other pre-epic feats I'd want to pick up...
4rogue: 8 total rogue, for 4d6 sneaks, and a handful more skill points for trap skills.
2SD/2ftr: 1 more pre-epic feat, and potentially I could put 2 more fighter or rogue in epic and still end with 17 SD. I'd net 3AB from these 4 levels and still net my 4th attack.

and yes, 17 shadowdancer lvls minimum. suggestions?

blackvswhite wrote:

Moon elf
str:12
dex:18(25)
con:12
int:14
wis:8
cha:10

1 rogue: dodge
2 rogue
3 rogue: weapon finesse
4 rogue (4)
5 fighter: mobility
6 fighter: exotic weapon/weap focus
7 fighter
8 fighter(4): weap spec
9 shadowdancer: knockdown
10 shadowdancer
11 shadowdancer
12 shadowdancer: Skill Focus Hide
13 shadowdancer
14 shadowdancer
15 shadowdancer: stealthy
16 shadowdancer(8)
17 Rogue (skill dump)
18 Fighter : imp. knockdown, Skill Focus Move Silently
19 Fighter Blind Fight
20 Fighter
21 fighter(8): epic weapon Focus/spec
22 shadowdancer
23 shadowdancer(10)
24 shadowdancer: epic hide
25 shadowdancer
26 shadowdancer: epic shadowlord
27 shadowdancer epic ms
28 shadowdancer
29 shadowdancer: epic dodge
30 Fighter Great DEX

four spaces, 17-20...

4fighter: idk what other pre-epic feats I'd want to pick up...
4rogue: 8 total rogue, for 4d6 sneaks, and a handful more skill points for trap skills.
2SD/2ftr: 1 more pre-epic feat, and potentially I could put 2 more fighter or rogue in epic and still end with 17 SD. I'd net 3AB from these 4 levels and still net my 4th attack.

and yes, 17 shadowdancer lvls minimum. suggestions?

First, a query: What on earth do you want 17 SD for? It's every 3 levels that it gets bonus feats. I updated it for you, tell me if you like, and feel free to ask questions.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Svenks... That build is bleh. You dont need maximize spell, you have 10 levels of cleric but only enough wisdom to cast 5th level spells.

sure i do. 10 Cleric levels = 20 Turns of Bulls. Having maxed looses up LOADS of gearslots.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Please read all of page 3 and 4, where your buddy, Svenks's Johnsson, hashed out his build and spewed nonsensical crap everywhere. They each can do just about anything, their friggin clerics.

they were cuuuute!

17 is 4th attack and blind fight for the shadow summon. I might keep the last level shadowdancer and rearrange feat order, but I like how that looks.

You don't get attacks in epic. 17th SD does nothing.

^^ Its for the summon though, it would be impossible to get 17 SD in pre-epic anyways.

Summons dont get more attacks in epic levels? Or misread?

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Epic_shadowlord

^ this, for clarification. not to mention I just want lots and lots of shadowdancer.

problem though... I can't take hide on my fighter levels, I'm finding... not even 1 for the price of 2, so if I take 4rg/4ftr/1rg/8sd/3ftr pre-epic, do I still get my own 4th attack? I believe I should.

It's been so long since i had a shadowdancer summon that I don't remember, honestly.

Question: If 35 ranks in Spellcraft are needed to get Hellball, then how is it possible to get Hellball?

Spellcraft prerequisite: 32 Not 35. Means you can get Hellball at level 29 or 30

also means that drow cant get it

Epic Shadelord doens't improve attacks on Amia with more levels. Also relying on a summon when you are not a caster is a sure way to fail.

13 SD 13 Rogue 4 Fighter if you simply must have the epic shadelord feat. (Also nets you crippling strike and skillmastery which are. . .useful)

MoshingChris wrote:

Epic Shadelord doens't improve attacks on Amia with more levels. Also relying on a summon when you are not a caster is a sure way to fail.

13 SD 13 Rogue 4 Fighter if you simply must have the epic shadelord feat. (Also nets you crippling strike and skillmastery which are. . .useful)

On that would you prioritize pre-epic BAB 16, or epic weapon specialization?

EWS... Most likely like most SD's you are only going to be attacking half a round anyways before jumping back into shadows. The 4th attack will probably rarely be used. Always could dual wield or whatnot.

IN this cage Pidge is incorrect. Your three fighter feats in pre-epic are for Ambidex, Two Weapon and Imp Two Weapon Fighting and the fourth attack which is more important for a Shadowdacer than EWS. The reason is it changes up your flurries coming out of HiPS.

With Seven attacks your first flurry has three attacks in it.
With Six or less you only get two.

Shucks! My apologies. I did not know about the flurry changing. Thought it was 2 in first flurry all the time.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Both are great in their own aspects. I recommend a melee cleric if you are used to fighters and a caster if you are used to casters.

Nuh, the Pigeon phales. I recommend the one you'd rather play, is the answer. Experience will come in time.

so... does more levels of shadowdancer give the summon anything?

Eh. I lost what I was talking about with Gill's rebuild.

Should I multiclass my cleric?
Should I make it caster or melee?
What skills should I focus on?
Do epic spells for Clerics require a WIS minimum?

I really suck when it comes to builds. The best thing i've ever done was figure out how to make a simple dev critting WM.

Zeborah wrote:

Eh. I lost what I was talking about with Gill's rebuild.

Should I multiclass my cleric?

[...]

I really suck when it comes to builds.

(Because of the latter comment, this post is going to be pretty basic/obvious -- apologies if it's unnecessary.)

Yes. Clerics get a large benefit out of multiclassing. A class with Tumble as a favored skill effectively gives you +3 AC, which is better than most epic feats. Clerics are particularly feat-starved, so any class that grants bonus feats at low levels are good. Martial weapon proficiency from a class saves you from having to use a feat to be able to use decent weapons. Getting Discipline and UMD favored is also useful.

As far as multi-classing in general, a good way is to think in terms of marginal utility ("what does one more level of this class give you, versus what one more level of another class would give?"). Bear in mind the following "breakpoints:"

Cleric 29: final epic bonus feat
Cleric 27: final Gate upgrade
Cleric 26: second epic bonus feat
Cleric 25: d12 darkfire, become dispel-proof
Cleric 23: first epic bonus feat
Cleric 22: first Gate upgrade
Cleric 20: full number of cleric spell slots; d10 darkfire
Cleric 15: GMW and Magic Vestment become +5; Divine Favor becomes +5; 1d8 darkfire

(If you take the Death domain, the final upgrade for the summon is at level 28.)

Quote:

Should I make it caster or melee?

Entirely your choice. My own opinion is that melee clerics work better, but even a caster cleric can cast a few buffs and become a decent fighter in a group.

Quote:

What skills should I focus on?

Concentration, Spellcraft, Discipline, Tumble, UMD.

Quote:

Do epic spells for Clerics require a WIS minimum?

Yes. From http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=23225&p=644297#p644297:

"NB: Mind that you need a Wis, Int or Cha of at least 20 to be able to cast Epic Spells! This is in your casting stat, so Int for wizards, Cha for Bards/Sorcs, Wis for Druids/Clerics."

Final Death Domain upgrade is at 27
You also didn't point out that 18 Cleric is +5 Deflection AC from shield

Also remember the Deity system.

Air - Immunity Increase vs Electric, 20% + cleric levels
Animal - Increases damage of Animal summons, 1 for every 7 cleric levels
Death - Increases damage of Undead summons, 1 for every 7 cleric levels
Destruction - Damaging Fire shield, d6 + 1 for every 5 cleric levels
Earth - Immunity Increase vs Acid, 20% + cleric levels
Evil - Extra damage vs Good, 1 + 1 for every 7 cleric levels
Fire - Immunity Increase vs Fire, 20% + cleric levels
Good - Extra damage vs Evil, 1 + 1 for every 7 cleric levels
Healing - Regeneration, 1 for every 10 cleric levels
Knowledge - All skills boost, 1 for every 5 cleric levels
Magic - Spell Resistance increase, 10 + 1 for every 2 cleric levels
Plant - Natural AC, +1 for every 5 cleric levels, capped at 5
Protection - Concealment, 20% + cleric levels
Strength - Strength increase, 1 for every 7 cleric levels
Sun - Extra damage vs Undead, 1 + 1 for every 7 cleric levels
Travel - Immunity to Movement Speed Decrease
Trickery - Invisibility
War - Damage increase, 1 for every 10 cleric levels
Water - Immunity Increase vs Cold, 20% + cleric levels

A good reason to take 28 Cleric levels is that you get +5 Bonus from Some Domains. Aka 1 Base + 1 every 7 levels.

7+7 = 14
+7 = 21
+7 = 28

It'd be nice if the durations of those buffs were posted, but I can't arse the team to be bothered with putting in those calculations. I know they're rather short though, even for a high level cleric. Considering you can only pray once per hour.

5 turns + 1 turn / 3 Cleric levels.

Very_Svensk wrote:

5 turns + 1 turn / 3 Cleric levels.

Too bad it doesn't last an hour at full 30 cleric. Then again, some of those buffs are way too powerful to last that long.

Wouldn't matter. A cleric only maintains peak efficiency for however long its Divine Favor lasts for. Once those run out I know personally that my cleric rests because running with 5 less AB/Damage is inefficent.

blackvswhite wrote:

so... does more levels of shadowdancer give the summon anything?

I don't think so, from what Mosh said.

So, basically you want Epic dodge and epic shadowlord, right? Those are the only prerequisites? And out of curiousity, are you thinking of two weapons, or is one weapon a must?

Im curious how much the Death Domain summon improves from level 22-26 to level 27. I Mean.. Not in EXACT numbers, but more estimated.

A little better?
A Lot better?
HELLOVA MUCH BETTER?

Does the BAB gained from Tensers transformation count towards the +20 AB cap?

EDIT: Also, does one score Sneak Attacks with a bow from a distance if their target has locked onto them? As in clicked Attack and is now charging towards you.

Yes

No

www.nwnwiki.com

Ok so my Rogue/SD main uses a bow and seems way more suited to RP spying/pvp than PvE. Often times the groups she gets in want to go kill undead or other things immune to SA so I end up feeling pretty useless watching immune to sneak attack fill my combat log. So! I saw a few Arcane Archers and thought I'd try my hand at it. As with all characters I make I come up with a concept and what I want them to do once they reach 30 so here is what I'm looking for:

I know Arcane Archer without a doubt but if it wouldn't hurt the build too much I'd still like 6 SD levels for hide in plain sight with emphasis on being sneaky. However, the end goal is a character that can solo moderate difficulty and be a valuable asset to a party for the higher end places. I'm not wanting a powerbuild for pvp, though I would like to at least be able to handle myself if it happens. Perhaps not able to kill whoever is attacking her, but at least disable them enough to get away.

As for her concept and RP: I'm looking to make her a tomboy and I haven't really decided on good or evil yet. I'm leaning towards evil but not the kill babies, and murder families. More of the, I won't go out of my way to cause bad things to happen to someone, but I also won't think twice about leaving them to die if it comes down to a choice of them or me. Of course this self-concerned nature would not be blatantly obvious. I'd like her to be quite charismatic. Quick witted, and one of the types that when in trouble finds a way to talk her way out of it. If possible I'd also like her to be able to use traps but that's not a deal breaker.

Wow this post got huge, so let me summarize in order from most important to me to least important but still important to me:

1) Awesome ranged DPS via Arcane Archer (Maybe even with Sneak Attack tacked on but not majorly focused on sneak attack or even at all if it sacrifices too much)

2) Capable of soloing moderate zones like Yuan-ti and around that level.

3) An asset to a group in the Abyss/etc higher level areas.

4) Use of traps/UMD

5) Spell casting isn't as important to me as the bow and arrow stuff.

Those are the five things I feel are most important for the build. And here are some of my more specific questions:

A) What build should I use? Please at least break it down between take this pre-epic, and this post epic.

B) Tips on feats that are a must have for this sort of build, and suggested optional feats.

C) Skill suggestions (A lot of my toons have high int so I have tons of skillpoints because I'm used to playing Human Rogues because I love skills and have a hard time picking which ones to take)

D) Suggested starting stats: Being an arcane archer of course the race must be Elf, though I'm not against subraces that also meet the requirement for AA. I sometimes have a hard time deciding where to put points, and I've never played an AA so I wouldn't know if I should try for 18 dex, and settle for min Cha, or if I need to go with 16's for both or what. A lot of my characters usually end up with 8 str though, but if you have a more balanced stat allocation I'm all for listening.

That was a huge post and I apologize, but thanks for reading and any tips in advance. =)

Well, Bard/Shadowdancer/Arcane Archer? From the top of my head, something like 9/6/15? There's probably a better class balance that someone who actually knows what theyre talking about can suggest, but for a first draft....

Anyway. No Sneak Attack I'm afraid. Could maybe 4 more Shadowdancer instead of AA if you want the awesome Epic Dodge. Maybe also no Traps, unless you put point in cross class. But still sneaky and with a nice arrow output.

For Max AB it would be something like 8/4/8 at 20?

YOu cant really have min Cha, unless you use Wizard as base for AA, which I wouldnt recommend given you (a) want to be charming, and (b) Bard has the best selection of class skills bar none.

10 SD reduces AA damage, but nets you epic dodge. Would have to take 11 AA then instead,. YOu'll loose 2 AB/&Damage

Edit:: And ...You may Potentially Loose 1 attack or some BaB, Its a risk.

Edit: oh, and your HP will be riddiculous.

Ridiculous as in bad or good? >_>

Ok so, so far we have 9/6/15 or 9/10/11

My question here is: Which on is better as far as the solo/asset to a party? Also what is pre-epic and post epic or does it not really matter?

And feats! I'm guessing Rapid Shot and Point Blank Shot are givens, but are there any others I should look out for? (Of course I include the ones required for the SD levels) Even still though, is SD a better choice than Rogue for the third class since they get more skill points and can set traps?

One of the things I like about traps is it's a cool skill. With her being designed to RP her way out of conflict, I'd like to have the option of using traps as a back up escape plan. Plus one of the times I felt the most useful on Sairia was when everyone in my group died but me, and I put some traps down, kited the mobs over them so I could rez everyone.

I'm willing to give up SD if it means a more effective build PvE/PvP.

Edit: Actually thinking about it: Perhaps Bard/Ranger/AA would be better? Ranger could boost the Bards AB pre-epic (or is that not a problem for AAs?) plus they get set trap and I think Ranger could fit her RP too.

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