AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

This question is prompted by an exchange in the Requests folder... bringing it to General to avoid posting in someone else's request (and because hey, it's a general question). Regarding the following:

TormakSaber wrote:

AxlLeigh wrote:

The Rules wrote:

"Do not give your characters titles that they supposedly earned on Amia, unless a DM grants you that title. If your character's past in some other land or plane involved him/her having a title, that is fine, as long as you don't claim to have any unearned influence on Amia"

Thus, if his title is in any other land, by DM and Rules stance, he's fine. Why is it not okay now, other than the fact that the char is already made?

Her quote is wrong, or, at least, being wielded in the wrong context. If you wish to be established nobility, it is a requirement to make a request. That is why phearnun needed to make a request in the first place to play Robert of Caris, why this request needed to be made pre creation, and why Renais should have made one.

I'm having a hard time understanding Tormak's response to this. The rule as quoted seems pretty clear: the "character's past in some other land or plane involved him/her having a title," which is explicitly stated as being "fine" in the rules; likewise, the character doesn't "claim to have any unearned influence on Amia," also explicitly stated as being "fine."

The reason I bring this up is because my drow character, and virtually every surfacer drow character I've ever seen, has claimed to have come from House Whatever, which was located in Somewhere Else, and then lost the privileges of nobility when coming to Amia and the surface (the same situation at the original requester's character, but with a different race).

My two questions: First, How is it that the original requester's bio was out of line, given that his nobility was "from some other land" and didn't grant "any unearned influence on Amia?" Second (and this will sound sarcastic but it's not intended to be), did all those drow characters really submit an approved nobility request, and should I have done the same for mine?

Edit: I should also note that, try as I might, I couldn't find the original source for the rule quoted above. Perhaps my search fu is just weak? Or maybe the rule has already been changed somehow, in which case... umm... nevermindthewholethingplease.

Lizzie wrote:

Second (and this will sound sarcastic but it's not intended to be), did all those drow characters really submit an approved nobility request, and should I have done the same for mine?

Been ages since I last played a Drow but lets see if I get it together:

You are in theory earning the right of nobility by being taken into the house, so you earned the right very much IC. Granted, Drow are a special case as well regarding this.

Go read the drow topic. I'm not repeating myself for the half dozenth time.

Nobles require requests. Period. End of story. No loopholes. They will be shot down.

TormakSaber wrote:

Go read the drow topic. I'm not repeating myself for the half dozenth time.

Nobles require requests. Period. End of story. No loopholes. They will be shot down.

Oh jeez... I didn't know that nobility was such a hot-button issue, but now that I've read the thread you made me aware of, I can see why you'd be a bit ready to snap about it.

That is Tormak being calm fyi.

I'd like to clarify a few points. While you have to request to play a noble from point A, you can gain nobility through IC actions in the form of titles and knighthood. Avadon of Wiltun is a perfect example of this. Avadon did things for Wiltun and got made a knight and thus a noble, of Wiltun.

So while you may miss your request for one, you can intergrate the quest for nobility into your characters RP.

As the current rule stands:

Quote:

Do not give your characters titles that they supposedly earned on Amia, unless a DM grants you that title. If your character's past in some other land or plane involved him/her having a title, that is fine, as long as you don't claim to have any unearned influence on Amia

it is not clear that nobility requires a request in all of its forms. There are three parts of this rule.

- One may not claim titles earned on amia without a dm granting you one.
- One may have a title outside of amia in a different land or plane.
- One may not claim any unearned influence on amia.

This means, you can not claim to be a cordorian or kohlingen nobility without request, as it would be a claim title of the isle without dm permission. So concerning non-amian nobles the only way to justify the current enforcement would mean that such a character has more influence on amia than character without it would have, and hence be against the third point.

However, in the cases of Renais, Lizzie's character or Yaston Sylgerand this was not the case to my knowlege. That is why in my own topic I requested a clear ruling is given to clear this matter. The fact my request for Robert, where the ruling was given that it does not really need a request for such a noble character was moved when nobility-discussion first arose is a bit odd, especially if it was so clear as Tormak suggests.

On the subject why I requested the noble status of Robert, it was not because I thought I had to do so. It was because my experience on amia that as soon as a problem arises the staff creates laws and enforces them on pre-rule-created characters, just like with ruling concerning the child characters clearly demonstrates.

So I will take the liberty here to ask once more, please draft a clear rule concerning such cases, as it currently only comes down to the question if a noble of a distant land has more influence than a non-noble would have. Something that could be debated and I doubt would reach a clear answer. A discussion where one could give very different examples, from a princess having more clearly, but then again what of a unknown small house with no influence? Or what of a destroyed lothite house?

I am surprised why not a simple rule is made to finally make this clear and give a guideline concerning this issue, so it does not just seem like a new unwritten law enforced.

As Disco has said in the drow topic, he can also not find any nobility requirement in the Rules and Lore.

That's exactly what I asked, Phear, just with more words.

I fail at the sense-making. But yes. If I'm a noble in, say, Waterdeep, which gives me NO status here, as who cares about Waterdeep when you're in Bendir, by that rule, I should not have to request anything. Confusion ensues.

That was the rule I was looking for, and how I understood it myself - titles of nobility are fine, so long as they have no influence on Amia. A minor noble from the arse-end of some nation has absolutely no advantage in his title except for nobility itself. Perhaps the rule should be changed and worded much more clearly - if a request is required for all nobility, that requirement should be stated.

I guess I agree, KrautBoy, a clarification would be helpful.

Also, on a bit of further reflection, I think that my question was a bit different than the one asked in the thread Tormak pointed me to. That thread (if I'm reading it correctly, through its massive fustercluck of static) seemed to be about characters with current, active, ongoing noble status, which gives them some sort of claim to authority or privilege in one or more locations in Amia. My question (and the question of the person whom I originally quoted) was about characters with defunct noble status, who for whatever reason no longer occupy the station they were born into, and have no hope of ever being able to claim any authority or privilege in Amia or anywhere else.

Yurell wrote:

That was the rule I was looking for, and how I understood it myself - titles of nobility are fine, so long as they have no influence on Amia. A minor noble from the arse-end of some nation has absolutely no advantage in his title except for nobility itself. Perhaps the rule should be changed and worded much more clearly - if a request is required for all nobility, that requirement should be stated.

Uh... yeah, what he said.

If you are making a noble PC, you make a request. What is so hard to understand about this incredibly simple concept?

Quote:

It was because my experience on amia that as soon as a problem arises the staff creates laws and enforces them on pre-rule-created characters, just like with ruling concerning the child characters clearly demonstrates.

This comment hardly endears me to the request now that it's approved, though.

Because there is no rule to support your claim of there being one. And I do not really care if it endears you, I am rather safe than sorry when making a character. Something clearly I was as lucky to do.

"But there's no rule saying I can't!" is the worst loophole and bar none the worst justification for doing anything EVER.

Then finally clear the subject with a rule and do it like with the child characters. Have those who want the claim write a request now except just saying "I made a new rule that is not written anywhere but will enforce it."

That is at least somewhat respectful towards the playerbase. Pretending there is a rule where there is not and enforcing it in a fashion that says "why is it so hard to understand" seems very unproper to me.

Link me to the forum post where it says it and I will change it right now. Because if you make a Waterdhavian noble, you will be asked to cease playing it until you make an approved request. If noble -> Request. Period. End of story.

The fact is there is no written rule concerning nobility. There is a rule that would indirectly bar -amian- nobles made without request. What is being enforced is not a rule, but an opinion of you. That is why I am asking once more - please have the dm team make one - .

I for one completely support noble characters all requiring a dm request. My problem is that you are using dm authority to enforce something which does not exist, and doing it in a disrespectful fashion towards the playerbase by pretending it is so obvious.

Uh, every DM enforces this. Not just me. Thanks.

Not to mention that it should come as a surprise to no one that since it's in the sidebar, it's incredibly old and outdated and the sidebar links need linked to forum pages instead....

Then update it and if you would look at the request of Robert (which cannot be read by players because it was moved after permission was given to me) you would see not every dm understood it so. Not to mention the rules and lore section does not really seem outdated to me.

Do it like with the child characters. New rule -> all those it applies to need to do a request now. It would solve the whole damn issue which is getting more than annoying.

It's only an issue because the latest trend of nobility characters want to make it one. There has, before this never been an issue understanding the simple concept of "If yo would like to play a character that is nobility, you make a request."

Is it not in R&L to update. If it is, link me to a post, as I have asked twice now.

Last edited by Pony on Fri, Jul 16 2010, 10:08 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Sidebar Ruling:

It needs to be clarified, due to the problems in the first post in this topic by myself. It also needs to be added here:

Rules: CREATING YOUR CHARACTER

While we are updating, you can also add the child character ruling to the Rules: CREATING YOUR CHARACTER topic.

And there clearly has been an issue about the rule before, so please do not pretend it is not so. There are various players who read the rule as I did, as it was outlined above. The only reason it was an issue now was because they were informed of this unwritten rule recently after the fact they had that background came out more prominently through my own rp.

Edit: Ignorance does not protect you from punishment when breaking the law can only really apply if access to the law is given. Here it clearly was not the case, I think that is the main problem.

So... On this question, can I ask whether it is okay that my character is an 'Elder' or whether that's just an assumed affiliation that has stuck with many people in game and it's entirely unofficial?

The majority of the Elven populace call my character Elder as his title in greeting, and often in any other circumstance. So... Is he an Elder? Or do people just call him that? Official DM-stance wise. Not what my character thinks he is or isn't.

I think that's because Elminster pre-empted the term "Crusty old bastard".

<3

And Tormy, yes, we understand NOW the rule is "if you want nobility, ask", but the simple fact is that the way that's worded, til DMs gave a definitive ruling, is confusing. For those that come in now and haven't seen the umpteen million requests, they're not going to see that as "If you want nobility, ask". They're going to (likely) think like us and make some noble from god-knows-where, then not understand WTF the dm team is on about when they have to change it. So, we're fine with the rule, just put it somewhere other than the fifteen-page flamethreads that no one wants to read.

As I just edited into my post above:

Ignorance does not protect you from punishment when breaking the law can only really apply if access to the law is given. Here it clearly was not the case, I think that is the main problem. And instead of trying to get it written down quickly, having these discussion topics really made the situation worse I believe. So yes, if its in I hope we can put an end to this all.

The Peacock wrote:

So... On this question, can I ask whether it is okay that my character is an 'Elder' or whether that's just an assumed affiliation that has stuck with many people in game and it's entirely unofficial?

This was earned IC wasn't it? If other PCs recognise Meldrium as an elder, how does that make it unofficial?

Because it was never confirmed by DMs... Although they use the term in reference to me as well. I am not sure... I did earn it IC, and it has stuck.

Anyway... If PCs use it, then I will let it continue as is.

Being of a noble family, at all, requires a DM-approved request.
That is the ruling.

If you think you have an outlier, PM a DM.

I'm locking this, as the ruling stands.

Nobility Requests?

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