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Guardian
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 Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 12:08 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
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All right...
I thought about this thread even before, but after what I have seen yesterday in Kohlingen, I must ask...
Don't you ever thought about disabling this feat? I mean, if you check the Bioware site, you can find a topic about this feat where one of the main creators of the game describes it as 'An epic feat designed for the single player'. Yesterday, in Kohlingen, we had an arena fights, right... it was quite common to see two players standing against each other... countdown was set - Fight! One hit... match is over. Devastating critical hit.
Now... the only chance to avoid crit. hit is having a crit. hit immunity. Fort. saves... no chance. Now I do not know if there is anything in the game that grants crit. immunity (maybe Palemaster and Shifter legacy), so I think the feat is absolutely imbalanced.
If such thread already exists, I am sorry... I tried to find it, alas I failed. But I am really curious why is this feat allowed in a RP world.
_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 12:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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It has been discussed many many many times before, and has been under discussion by the Balance Team. For the interim, the feat remains in its current incarnation. When / If it is decided to be changed, you'll be sure to find out.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Guardian
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 12:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
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Thanks, nothing to discuss then... please lock lock.
_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)
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Uberuce
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 15:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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The folk in the Build thread can show you how to create an equipment roster that'll raise your Fort save to 95% Devcrit-proof without uberloot or totally ganking your gearset for AC. The very low Fort builds like sub-10-CON mages/Rogues/Bards are exceptions to this but typically they have so few HP that they wouldn't even be rolling against Dev.
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Guardian
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 15:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
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I play Nwn quite a while... in fact, since the very release. I assure you, I know how to build a character that survives practically anything. I just do not find it proper to do it on a RP server. Arena, Action, sure... RP servers are not about builds.
_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 15:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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Guardian wrote: I play Nwn quite a while... in fact, since the very release. I assure you, I know how to build a character that survives practically anything. I just do not find it proper to do it on a RP server. Arena, Action, sure... RP servers are not about builds. It is more about gear, really. You can up your saving throws with gear, though your argument may still apply I guess.
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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Uberuce
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 15:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.
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I said equip, not build.
It's the opposite of poor roleplay to have your character build him or herself an anti-Dev'n'Wail suit. The existence of these two dangers(as well as all the other ones that roll Fort) is as much an IC fact of life to an adventurer as bullets and shrapnel are to a real life soldier or cop. Are they not being proper by wearing Kevlar?
I'll gladly concede that you know how to build out of Dev, but by the way you said "Fort saves...no chance" I guessed you don't know how to equip your way into a 95% chance, not on Amia at any rate.
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Ummma
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 15:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Location: unknown
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NWN (and D&D in general??) was never really designed/balanced for PvP - as can be seen by the massive changes that PvP servers use in the uphill struggle for balance. Devastating Critical does have one quite important role to fill in this regard - something to stop casters. Especially pure casters, with their laughable fortitude. This is assuming they have not already killed you or stopped you in yout tracks with the Bigby stun of doom or whatever, and you roll the dev before Mestil's Acid of Annoyance kills you. If one of the more common Mage-Killers is removed, it will lead to needing a million rebalances on spells or something.
Maybe there could be a 'stadium widget' that disables the dev, but still allows for overwhelming and high-output damage?
(and another widget that makes Shifters less likely to fall over when you sneeze on them, like a harm potion? *nods to Cory*)
_________________
Yay for Morphine!
Boo for having enough pain to have to use it..
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Lord-Hadeis
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 15:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Location: Netherlands, Schoonhoven
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NOT TO START OF A LONG DISCUSSION AGAIN
But a few nerf dev crit topics ago it looked plausable for some timer to be put on devcrit to limit it once a round or so. Anything ever come out of that?
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hendrack
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 16:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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hadeismetirion wrote: NOT TO START OF A LONG DISCUSSION AGAIN
But a few nerf dev crit topics ago it looked plausable for some timer to be put on devcrit to limit it once a round or so. Anything ever come out of that? BrainSplitter wrote: It has been discussed many many many times before, and has been under discussion by the Balance Team. For the interim, the feat remains in its current incarnation. When / If it is decided to be changed, you'll be sure to find out.
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Leggomi Eggolas
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 16:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Location: Oregon ('OR-ə-gən') [-8 GMT]
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Uberuce wrote: The existence of these two dangers(as well as all the other ones that roll Fort) is as much an IC fact of life to an adventurer as bullets and shrapnel are to a real life soldier or cop. Are they not being proper by wearing Kevlar? Kevlar is such a lame cheese build. Real RPers don't wear body armor. _________________ 
Those trees won't burn themselves down. (by Maryn)
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Silent2001
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 16:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire
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I don't think it's that overpowered given the amount of save items out there. My rogue can easily hit a fort high enough to evade dev crit on everything but a 1.
_________________  <3 MarynWe are going to die and that makes us the lucky ones.
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The Cobbit
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 16:47 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Aug 2005
Location: Satellite Of Love
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Or you can just try not to piss off the guy that has Dev. Crit.
_________________
I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.
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Guardian
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 17:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
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Uberuce wrote: I'll gladly concede that you know how to build out of Dev, but by the way you said "Fort saves...no chance" I guessed you don't know how to equip your way into a 95% chance, not on Amia at any rate. Ah, I am sorry then, that I put it the wrong way. I mean there is no chance to make a fort save in case you are not equiped for it. That is, if someone jump on you from invisibility and crit you, you have no chance to survive, no matter how badass demi-god you are. I do not say it is utterly wrong, but you know .... Ummma wrote: NWN (and D&D in general??) was never really designed/balanced for PvP - Both, I'm a fan... and I agree with you here. That's why I believe it is appropriate to custom some spells / feats to balance the game a bit. Then again, just my option which must not reflect the option of the others. And I agree, I do not want to create a flame 'killing spree' thread. In case this matter was discussed before, and the decison is made by Dms that dev. crit is appropriate for the server, there is nothing to discuss.
_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
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Obsidian (inactive)
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Dwagin
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 17:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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It burns. It burns. It burns. Stop it. No. No. No. No more!
*Flees*
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 18:14 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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My two cents, Devastating Critical does make sense on a RP server. There is such a thing as a "lucky hit". And sometimes someone getting knocked out after one swing is actually more plausible than two people standing there and whittling down their +400 Hp for 10 RL minutes.
The real problem is having people do ~60 damage on a crit and end up deving someone with a few hundred Hp. Or even more irksome, a DM event boss with a few thousand. I'm pretty sure one of the solutions a while back was to only have dev trigger only if it's above a set amount of damage.
I mean, we could always go the route of PnP Massive Damage rule. Just take dev out and whenever someone scores over a certain amount of damage in one melee hit(IIRC 50 in PnP), they roll fort vs instant KO. Likely for us, that would threshold would have to be bigger, like 70 or so. That way, "devs" as a whole go down. And for scimi/kukri/rapier, their crit range isn't as much a boon. They crit more often, so maybe a chance that they break that 70 mark a little more often, but I'd fathom it evens it up for other weapons that do more damage in general. As well, everyone has access to "getting a lucky hit", if they are legitimately doing enough damage to reason it. I'm not necessarily advocating this as the way we should change it, just putting it out there for the people that make the decisions.
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 18:44 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Likewise, a pure caster can cast one of many powerful spells and kill you instantly if you fail a Fort Save. Should those spells be removed too?
The solution: Mythal +3 Fort Saves on all your gear. It's the only save that matters. Mindblanks and Freedom of Movement take care of Will saves and Reflex Saves.
Having two fighter types with close to 500 hp battle it out would take a while without lucky blows and neat feats like Knockdown, Dev Crit, or Disarm. Next thing you know, any fighter with a grip of heal potions will almost always win if feats like Dev Crit are removed.
I don't think anything needs to be changed, but if anything should be done in hopes to nerf Dev Crit, I think a better solution would be to introduce some hard-to-get gear with +4 Fort Saves. That way, an extra few points can fix the problem instead of having to modify Dev Crit. I think the real problem is players who don't know that mythaling Fort Saves on gear is the best thing to do....so they moan about Dev Crit instead of finding the obvious solution to the 'problem'.
Last edited by Murex on Sun, Jul 11 2010, 18:53 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 18:51 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Actually, my suggestion doesn't remove dev, so much as it removes the feat. It could be argued that one shouldn't have to have specialization in a certain weapon to be able to do a crippling knockout blow it with. Merely the strength and damage.
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 18:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Dark Immolation wrote: Actually, my suggestion doesn't remove dev, so much as it removes the feat. It could be argued that one shouldn't have to have specialization in a certain weapon to be able to do a crippling knockout blow it with. Merely the strength and damage. That's too much work, and it's not the easiest or best solution. Introducing new gear with +4 Fort Saves is the most simple, and most effective change (if one is to be made).
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Guardian
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 19:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
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Murex wrote: Likewise, a pure caster can cast one of many powerful spells and kill you instantly if you fail a Fort Save. Should those spells be removed too? A wand of death ward. Piss easy. There is no temporary defense against dev. crit. Should you say cleric and Implosion, I would tend to agree, but then again, it is just a spell. There is a memorize limit on spells. Critical hit triggers a lot, and I mean A LOT with a proper build. So you can have fort. save like... 90, but there is a huge chance of rolling 1 in case the opposite character is built correctly. And I find amusing being killed in one hit and having over five hundered hp. I liked the solution on one server I used to play... where the only chance to get a dev. crit. hit was using a two handed weapons. For example... Lucky hit = critical hit. Devastating critical is far from a lucky hit. A fighter/wm with double scimitars could be the luckiest person in whole universe, should we think of it this way. You should have seen Kohlingen and duels there. None of them was longer than fifteen seconds and like 90% of them ended by insta-death that is dev. crit. hit. Anyway... let's drop it, please. Discussion is at hand in case there is a decision to make. In case the decision is made already, discussion is pointless.
_________________
Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)
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Arcadence
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 19:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 May 2010
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Murex wrote: Likewise, a pure caster can cast one of many powerful spells and kill you instantly if you fail a Fort Save. Should those spells be removed too? Dev crit is not immune to with one spell, nor does a pure caster get to cast 7-10 death spells a round. Straw men are for burning down.
_________________
Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 19:22 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Building a character for Dev Crit takes a lot of feats, so I think it's fair that it is an ability worthy of existing on amia. Having a 90-95% chance of resisting a fatal blow is a good enough counter to this. When it comes to this subject, I'd say Amia has it pretty balanced.
I'd reccomend looking up the previous thread on this subject.
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 19:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Arcadence wrote: Murex wrote: Likewise, a pure caster can cast one of many powerful spells and kill you instantly if you fail a Fort Save. Should those spells be removed too? Dev crit is not immune to with one spell, nor does a pure caster get to cast 7-10 death spells a round. Straw men are for burning down. Fair enough, But I don't think many can get 7-10 criticals in one round, although it may be possible. If the solution of mythaling Fort Saves on your gear isn't enough to quell this debate, then so be it.
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hendrack
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 19:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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BrainSplitter wrote: It has been discussed many many many times before, and has been under discussion by the Balance Team. For the interim, the feat remains in its current incarnation. When / If it is decided to be changed, you'll be sure to find out.
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Arcadence
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 19:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 May 2010
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Murex wrote: Fair enough, But I don't think many can get 7-10 criticals in one round, although it may be possible. If the solution of mythaling Fort Saves on your gear isn't enough to quell this debate, then so be it. I just meant it's not a good excuse, and ranger/rogue/wm types used to be around all the time with their 10-20 threat range...which made it pretty close to possible to do it. I have to agree - if you're too lazy to get your caster buddy or a random caster to mythal random +3 to fort saves onto your gear, you deserve to die. If you're a low fort save class, you're likely one that shouldn't be picking a fight in public in the first place either. We can't all be Superman. Just most.
_________________
Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
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Murex
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 20:13 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Dec 2009
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Not everyone can use wands or cast spells, and even the typical Fighter/WM isn't immune to Dev Crit. If ya reeeeely want to be immune to Crits, and if you can't stand Dev Crit existing on Amia......make a Pale Master character.
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Silvarus
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 20:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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I have nothing against devcrit.
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 21:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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BrainSplitter wrote: It has been discussed many many many times before, and has been under discussion by the Balance Team. For the interim, the feat remains in its current incarnation. When / If it is decided to be changed, you'll be sure to find out.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, Jul 11 2010, 23:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Didn't read except for first and last post. Locking.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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