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P Three

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 1:55 AM

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Joined: 18 Dec 2008

OK. This is mostly, but not necessarily, for the DMs. I would like to know EXACTLY at what point a True Resurrection becomes necessary. This stems from some conversations I've been having where we're beginning to wonder how, even in Amia, you can have every bit of your body destroyed, and be walking around ten minutes later, just fine. I understand that this is Amia (in b4 300), but at what point does this cease having even the vaguest point to PVP? No, this isn't in regard to any one thing. There just seems to be a lot of this on /both/ sides of the "bad guy/good guy" fence.

I mean, is a TR a pain in the ass? God yes. But at what point do we forcefully interject at least a modicum of realism to make PVP worth the fifteen (or whatever) minutes both sides put into it?

And remember, no hitting below the belt, keep it clean, come out swinging.

DING!

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Grymia

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 1:59 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

I will admit as a player to feeling a good deal of personal frustration on account of the point brought up here, especially when I have seen it happen more and more of late.

However, the problem is: There isn't a simple blanket solution that can be put forward to solve this. I know I've talked with a couple of others on the subject, but we've all come to the same bang our heads against the wall feeling that there's going to be dislike of any solution that comes of this, no matter how carefully it's thought out.

Glyph

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 2:22 AM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

I have to assume the apparent death symptoms are similar to those reapearing spawning monsters which never change

but seriously, i'd say in a DM storyline event is a good a time as any. *wonders how the heck darthion is still alive.*

for the purposes of stats and sense...

-9hp or more (positive more) = bleeding like heck, probably being stabbed.
-10hp or less = unconsious
-30hp or less = you don't do that sort of thing behind your wifes back mate (probably needs a major perfect revive spell, or whatever its called.)
-100hp or less, inside a dragons stomach soon to be a gaseous emmision = cleric circle the size of cordor square, if not more.

but, the one reason I personally click the respawn button is, because sometimes no one comes, at all, for like an hour. and it is BORING nevermind chat is locked so you can't even RP an "ugh........h........*faint groans, an arm lay meters from the elf, blood everywhere*"

all this does beg an important question, how the heck do you know when to die? when is enough enough and time for the last battle, a risky quest you know will kill you but you must succeed, knowing the guard will find you with no escape, maybe even one of those "ha got you, o snap got you too" *DOUBLE KILL* moments...

There is one thing im doing to accomodate for any deaths incured, injuries IC, right leg is already pwnt, wrapped in bandages, i'd do more but I think I need DC for custom skin parts so i'll have to RP it more.

ouch my brain....im gunna call it right there...interested in peoples opinions of the subject...

Selmak

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 2:30 AM

Player

Joined: 17 Dec 2004

If as you say, both sides want the previous fifteen minutes to have meant something, then the circumstances which would require a True Resurrection are: you have an actual plot and you don't want it to be ruined by the continuity error that is a respawn/easy raise. It needs to be hours or days before that person can be raised, for some particular reason.

When you just randomly bump into hostiles, assume that neither side gets to make the other side 99% dead. It's not going to matter if someone that 'died' earlier is alive again, it doesn't break the plot.

It goes without saying that if you're going to put someone out of action for a while, it's better when they know about the possibility of it happening.

Glyph

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 3:04 AM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

what about a slow healing [ability, movement, spell resist, damage, insert other here] drop after a PvP "kill" ? like being in hospital, or not caring that you've got a broken leg, but you will when you get to the steps. (as slow movement as f1+f2, then just f2, then your healed)

speaking of minus hp levels, if PvP you hack someone to minus 300hp you better have a good IC reason to do so imo.

im glad im not the only one who thinks solo leveling should not count as much in this.

its 4am, i need to stop.......and get back to the game XD

you are correct though, changing how death works will kill peoples desire to struggle on and -try- to somehow get to level 30, and instead aribel (or whatever) will have the highest players playing rating in the role play section O_o suddenly the difficult kobolds make sense.

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 3:15 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Glyph wrote:

-100hp or less, inside a dragons stomach soon to be a gaseous emmision = cleric circle the size of cordor square, if not more.

How is that common sense? Clerics don't need to make circles usually. And needing a circle that large is truly ridiculous, especially since it's something a lvl 9 spell can cure. Even that aside, that circle is large enough to nuke a city, or cast some decent High Magic.

To address the OP's question of when TR becomes strictly necessary (as opposed to Resurrection):

-When you don't have part of the dead creature's body from the time of death (e.g. above-mentioned dragon's dinner);
-You don't want them to lose a level or constitution when you bring them back;
-You want to raise an Outsider or an Elemental.

But quite above all this, just go with what the RP calls for.

Edit: Speaking of PvP, there is nothing that they can do to you that a Resurrection won't cure, barring burning / Disintegrating your remains and hiding the resulting ash / dust. If you allow PnP spells into it, which seems fair because you're allowing ones for raising, you can get much more creative, like Trap the Soul.
Then again, using True Resurrection in the first place is pretty useless unless you're playing with some PnP rules, since in NWN Raise Dead will do it all for you, and the body can't physically be destroyed.

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Roppi

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 3:24 AM

Player

Joined: 17 Apr 2010

I think its mostly a player issue when someone comes back to the battle zone immediately after getting beaten up and thrown out.

This ooc mechanic to "fast forward" and not waste the time of the "loser" (who could be else where rping) ends up being exploited.
Pretty disrespectful.

TormakSaber

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 3:43 AM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Quote:

-9hp or more (positive more) = bleeding like heck, probably being stabbed.
-10hp or less = unconsious
-30hp or less = you don't do that sort of thing behind your wifes back mate (probably needs a major perfect revive spell, or whatever its called.)
-100hp or less, inside a dragons stomach soon to be a gaseous emmision = cleric circle the size of cordor square, if not more.

No, DnD is:
Above 0: fine
0: Incapacitated
-1 to -9: Bleeding out
-10 (there is no distinction beyond except for regeneration): Dead.

Re: True Res: This spell should not be done without DM supervision because it is a requirement to spend diamonds on the casting.

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P Three

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 3:56 AM

Player

Joined: 18 Dec 2008

ok, somehow I wasn't clear, as usual.

If a body has been decapitated, burnt beyon recognition or is otherwise IRRETRIEVABLE by friends/allies, while we can't enforce a permadeath, at what point does a dm-overseen res become necessary?

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Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.

Yee-haw!

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Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

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RaveN

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 4:04 AM

Administrative Developer

Joined: 08 Jun 2010

Interesting and a good question. Saw someone emoting.. *Chops off head.* .. and claiming I couldn't raise the person. Is that simple of RP enough to suffice that I can't raise / be raised in the middle of an ongoing conflict?

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Yurell

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 4:12 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

If they can't get the body at all, it needs True Res.

That said, afaik you still only have the 24-hour capture rule (or however long it is) that you can hold someone who doesn't want to go along with it.
Being held prisoner is boring. Being held prisoner while dead even more so.

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TormakSaber

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 4:12 AM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

If the spell "True Ressurection" is being cast, it requires DM oversight.

Quote:

That said, afaik you still only have the 24-hour capture rule (or however long it is) that you can hold someone who doesn't want to go along with it.
Being held prisoner is boring. Being held prisoner while dead even more so.

Dms can and do make exceptions to this rule on a case by case basis.

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Jyro X

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 4:28 AM

Player

Joined: 04 Dec 2009
Location: North Carolina (EST/GMT -5)

As a general rule of respect to the playerbase, I generally request if someone dies, they don't pop up and walk around for at least an entire reset. At least not in the hostile territory they just died in.

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Yurell

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 4:53 AM

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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

TormakSaber wrote:

Dms can and do make exceptions to this rule on a case by case basis.

Yes, I didn't mean to insinuate that DMs can't ... my post was just presuming a DM doesn't.

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ainjyll

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 5:27 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc

In my opinion, it all depends on the storyline. If it's just some "random" PvP (i.e. Person 1 meets with Person 2, they don't get along PvP ensues), then everyone should keep moving on with their lives and perhaps a good nemesis plot line can spring forth from the situation. If it's more plot driven (i.e. Person from Warring Faction 1 and Person from Warring Faction 2 meet and PvP ensues), then I believe there should definitely be some time off for the losing character. Whether that time off is one reset, 1 day, 1 week or whatever should be up to those involved in the situation.

There's a whole slew of things that could be done to "fix" this kind of thing from occurring, but the easiest and most simple to put into effect is just to be civil with your fellow players. Usually if there's a bit of OoC communication, people have no problem taking a bit of time off or will at least be sure to avoid your character for the time being. If they don't and they want to come right back to fight again and again and again, screenie and submit to a DM, because unless I'm mistaken that's a form of griefing.

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MoshingChris

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 5:31 AM

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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge

Don't make posts. Lead by example.

Thats my opinion on all these threads. If you don't like something and how it works, change it up in game.

I personally switch characters for the day if one of mine dies badly enough in pvp to require a true ressurection -unless- theres follow up RP that doesn't involve me looking at my characters body lying on the floor.

Thats just me.

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Arcadence

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 5:37 AM

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Joined: 09 May 2010

Quote:

Don't make posts. Lead by example.

Um...

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Gers

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 5:38 AM

Player

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

Here's my take on it.

True Ress:

You need the name of the person, and some way of uniquely identifying them. "Joe Johnson" for example, might be a common name. "Joe Johnson, who was born on XX-XX-XXXX, to Mary Maltakir and Jordan Johnson in the year 1320 DR" would be sufficient for a True Rezz to work. Same thing with any major deeds they accomplished: "Jud'Vardas Kenlyl, who fought against the devil Terzaroch at the Nexus Falls on Amia Isle" would also work. Regardless, the spell itself requires diamonds and a level's worth of XP from the caster.

Also, *any* ressurection/raise dead spells requires the consent of the spirit. The spirit, when you cast the raise, gains knowledge of two things: the name of the person casting, and the god the one casting the ressurection follows. The dead can refuse to answer the call of the spell on either point, or simply the desire not to be raised.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 5:41 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Assuming true resurrection as a method of avoiding Perma-death isn't applicable if I'm correct, as TR requires DM supervision and is a PnP Spell? Meaning any actions causing perma-death, though possibly avoided through TR, require the permission of a DM or the party being perma-killed.

Would that be right?

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Gers

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 5:43 AM

Player

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

No.

The permadeath of your character is your own concern. You could RP that a nameless cleric came across your PC's decaying head on a roadside or something, and decided to raise it just as a good deed. No one can dictate permadeath to your characters save yourself, or a DM.

And, it's damnably hard to eradicate any example of a foe. You cut their head off? Great, there's blood gushing all over from their severed arteries for people to use to raise them. You hit them with a disintegrate spell? Better get rid of that pile of ash and kill anyone who knows where it sat.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 5:44 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Gers wrote:

Thats what I meant by permission. It requires the permission of a DM or the person being perma-killed. Just to clear it up, not related to todays events, just something I always wondered about.

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Uberuce

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 9:24 AM

Player

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.

Glyph wrote:

speaking of minus hp levels, if PvP you hack someone to minus 300hp you better have a good IC reason to do so imo.

Does "stab stab stab stab stab blood squirt death die pain bleed eyes pancreas stab stab stab stab want make babies" count?

I personally love the raise-spam: without it I couldn't incite the prolonged sprawling chaotic PvP messes that my beloved horrible little bastard creates. My favourite fight ever is still him versus three other guys, who were chain raising each other while I cornersneaked and Heal-chugged like nuts until I eventually died after fifteen solid minutes of gloriously mindless violence.

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 9:32 AM

Player

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Uberuce wrote:

I personally love the raise-spam: without it I couldn't incite the prolonged sprawling chaotic PvP messes that my beloved horrible little bastard creates. My favourite fight ever is still him versus three other guys, who were chain raising each other while I cornersneaked and Heal-chugged like nuts until I eventually died after fifteen solid minutes of gloriously mindless violence.

I like the raise spam too ... victory comes to those who are prepared.

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Selvec Darkon

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 9:50 AM

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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.

Uberuce wrote:

Glyph wrote:

speaking of minus hp levels, if PvP you hack someone to minus 300hp you better have a good IC reason to do so imo.

Having seen your youtube video. This does not surprise me.

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Wyjyn

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 10:01 AM

Player

Joined: 11 Jan 2007

I do not like the raise + potion combat at all for a whole range of reasons, primary amongst them is that the pvp never really quite ends because you 'always' have to be on guard for the potential passerby that might just wander by and raise. Sometimes I have been in the middle of a RP sentence when someone is raised and pvping. It can be very annoying, defeat is part of RP.

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Logicality

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 14:30 PM

Player

Joined: 23 Apr 2008
Location: The Otherworld

While tactically I have no problem with raising in combat and thereafter chugging heals, it does often ruin what might otherwise have been a solid end to a conflict. It gets to the point where I have to wonder whether it's the characters that want to win the battle, or the players.

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Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 14:46 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Uberuce wrote:

Glyph wrote:

speaking of minus hp levels, if PvP you hack someone to minus 300hp you better have a good IC reason to do so imo.

Having seen your youtube video. This does not surprise me.

Link the video please

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Glyph

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 15:02 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

I'm sorry but if one person casting a level 9 cleric spell can revive you after being transformed into methane through the stomach of a dragon I don't want your clerics help. magic circle I say. or is this a math argument?

also, in game mechanics wise, you can still talk until -10hp, thus -10 is unconsiousness soon to be death, and anything 0 and below is like, idk, bust your leg and can't stand sort of pain.

I can see why this would bug some though as the descriptor is clearly "raise dead" on the scroll, but if I remember rightly your not supposed to RP remembering being dead so...yea...

"...haha im alive, *stab* damn it *KO* here have a raise lol *arises* hahaha im alive...." repeat.

one thing does come to mind, make it harder to die and it will be easier to accept it when you finally do.

....I can see aswell why you we're banging heads against walls...

Yurell

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 15:05 PM

Player

Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)

Glyph wrote:

Up to you. It boils down to the fact there is a perfectly legitimate spell that can raise you from any state of death barring being undead or having died of old age. And if your cleric states that such a thing needs a magic circle ICly, mine will call yours an idiot ICly.
And this is not a maths argument, and I've no idea where you could pull that from.

As an aside, where are you getting the 'mere bodily destructions requires a magic circle of ridiculous proportions' idea from, anyway?

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Last edited by Yurell on Sun, Jun 13 2010, 15:09 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Glyph

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 15:08 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

fair enough, I didn't realise clerics we're that powerful.

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 15:13 PM

Player

Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

it's because Amia is a level 30 server, while normal pnp clerics aren't that powerfull. High priests are usually the only ones able to cast True ress in faerun.

One has to keep in mind that Amia is a HIGH level server.

Take eleminister for example. In the books he's like 23-25. On amia he would be like level 50.

IronAngel

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 15:32 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Well, I wouldn't accept it anyway. There should always be more RP to big things like that, than simply casting a spell. But luckily, the spell isn't available to clerics on Amia so you don't even have to say it doesn't revive your character, because you don't have to let it be cast at all. It simply doesn't exist as we know it.

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Uberuce

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 16:02 PM

Player

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.

Quote:

Link the video please

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCuxmhM8ocs

I have mellowed with age, mind. That video was shot before that stupid 30 thing happened.

Grymia

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 16:45 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

Homicidal bovine tendencies aside, can we get back on topic please?

As for the person who asked if *Decapitates X* is sufficient, I would say it depends. This may end up being done mid combat, where the person doesn't want to type a three-sentence description of making like Macleod in Highlander, but then again at the same time there should be some logic to it.

If the person's armed with a rapier, or a club I am sorry but they aren't decapitating someone, (but they can with a little creativity inflict very similar damage that'd require more effort then a simple raise dead, IMHO). Longsword, Axe, or other blade around that size or beyond, probably more doable.

Uberuce

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 21:12 PM

Player

Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Near the bar.

The Bear Jew. *nods*

Funiculus

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 21:20 PM

Player

Joined: 04 May 2005
Location: Right here!

Just a quick note for clarification; you've killed another player, you type "//ooc raise" and unhostile so summons/companions do not attack them. This is not carte blanche for them to immediately attack you or port out to rest/rebuff/return, unless I'm mistaken?

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Glyph

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 21:57 PM

Player

Joined: 10 Jun 2010

I believe you are correct, you are supposed...to sit down again and pretend half your skulls hanging out or whatever description would be appropriate. if you attack them it would not suprise me if they change subdue to pwnage and leave you there to lose xp on a respawn. though at this point im pretty sure your supposed to say "hey, dm, this noob won't stay down" or something.

Gers

Posted: Sun, Jun 13 2010, 22:17 PM

Player

Joined: 30 Apr 2005
Location: Kentucky, USA

Funiculus wrote:

An OOC raise is just that: it's out of character, and purely to get the respawn screen out of your fellow player's face. As far as roleplay is concerned, they're still dead or KOed. There is no way they should/could be able to stand up and port out or attack. If they do, they're breaking server rules, and it should be reported immediately to a DM. If none is on, screenshot it, host the screenshots somewhere, and send links to a DM.

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