Eh, "made up stories" is what this game is about. People who need mechanics to control their RP aren't worth my time anyway.

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So you think it's really valid that a 8 Int fighter can speak 10 languages; or what are you saying?
I think its rather appalling.

And sometimes, the player-base -need- guidelines and restrictions.

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No, I do not think that and neither did I say anything that would vaguely suggest such. I know it's the Internet and all, but do try to maintain some level of quality to your argumentation.

I am saying exactly what I said: if you need mechanical rules to decide the learning capabilities of a person you have created, you are not worth my time. You are probably an uncreative dullard who lacks taste, style and the discipline for self-moderation. You are therefore uninteresting. It is good that many players need guidelines and restrictions, but only as long as they don't get them: that way we can see who are the boring losers and who can maintain a certain quality without external force. Better not dress the lambs in wolves' clothing because that'll only mask their incompetence temporarily and end up wasting everyone's time.

In more moderate terms: it's a game about storytelling and creativity. I feel sorry for you if you can't decide how many languages your PC should be able to know, but I don't feel sorry enough to give up my own freedom to help you choose.

My previous post was especially aimed to Jyro, whose opinion does not conform to D&D rules, to Amia policy or to real life comparisons; pretty much the only three valid authorities in the matter. I'm wondering if it has any justification whatsoever to back it up.

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I don't understand what the problem is. Just because some of you want to be 'special' and excluding with your roleplay does not mean that you should ignore the roleplay of others. I don't see why you get upset if someone knows a few languages. If you don't want anybody to hear your remarks, speak in whispers, or in private.

Apologies if I'm misinterpreting, but that sounds like a very heated post directed towards me for pretty much no reason whatsoever. I never stated that -I- needed mechanical rules to govern my RP or my character. I stated that -some- people -do- need those rules because it ruins immersion for other players.

That cannot be denied. And saying my argument is baseless and in less words, "stupid" is just as offensive as a 6 INT age 22 warrior who knows how to speak Drow, Abyssal, Celestial, etc etc. And I'd appreciate it if you didn't flame me for expressing a valid opinion that wasn't aimed at anyone in this thread, but more the non-vocal community whom plagues our server with their noobish antics, even after being given the proper guidance.

I will not be replying to any more attempts at baiting me to satisfy the childish desire to argue. Gods forbid anyone express an opinion that isn't directed at any one person.

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jyro, he ment me. At least i think he did.

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Iron, how about you not be a jerk and call everyone you disagree with ignorant and stupid and "you just don't get my clear superiority" for once, alright?

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

So...

Languages. Yep. Unbridled in the realm of RP. That they are... Yep. a

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'Ze Cock! Ze Cock ist shtill aut der!! Kapitulation feiern - NEIN DANKE!'

How exactly is it that you know their ability modifiers, anyway? Also... do you know how many skill points a "warrior" with 6 in intelligence gets? I'm guessing you do. I'm also guessing that none of these 'encounters' of yours actually had 6 intelligence and that you're exaggerating. A majority of the server likes to you know... be able to distribute skill points in their builds, and as such, usually have 10-14 intelligence.

You know what he's saying, breaking down his reasonable exaggeration for point is unnecessary.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

It's a silly thing to be hung up on. Yes, it is not shocking that characters are not played according to their stats. But that does not only go for intelligence. It goes for every other stat aswell. You have characters with 8 CHA that are charming women and are generally perceived as likeable. You have characters with 8 WIS that like to offer their insights frequently. Insights that are not ones that should be had with 8 WIS. Then there are those with 8 in DEX that act pretty graceful, even though they should be tripping on their own legs as they walk.

I'd say that far more people ignore those stats than they do intelligence, and the amount of languages they can speak.

Your comparisons don't work. IT's not impossible to walk with 8 dex, nothing about 8 cha says you can't be likeable, and having 8 wis doesn't mean you stick your hand in the oven over and over.

8 int though means you are irrevocably dumb and stupid.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

So all the other stats are open for interpretation, but intelligence is not? I think you are incorrect. Either make guidelines for all the stats, or make guidelines for none.

IMHO let people play their ability as they want. It's the DMs that reward DCs on a case by case basis, and I'm going to bet some of them will (not) grant DCs based on situations, if they decide to check your stats during an interaction or RP situation. It's ultimatly up to each DM to choose how to react to it, I think. And I seriously doubt 'play your stat THIS WAY!' will ever become an enforced rule. Hence the entire topic is just going to be what Player X wants, countered by what player Y wants or interprets it. And while I am someone that do LOVE a discussion, I've seen this exact thing get discussed so much, I'm only going to leave my one post here with my -personal- views(Which means I don't care if anyone else see it as 'right' or 'wrong', it's ultimatly a personal view for everyone on how to interpret the different abilities). And for whoever's interrested in reading it, just highlight the blackened out text.



Wisdom is based more on what you do when faced with a situation, as I see it.
Where Intelligence is based on what you have learnt or experienced and how you handle that information.

Char with high wis, might be very capeable of giving eye-opening insight or discern the truth in a situation. Though if he lacks intelligence he might have a hard time processing what to do with the information. (I.E savantism)

Char with high int, will probably learn quickly and apply the new knowledge to future similar situations. Though if he lacks wisdom, he will probably go against common sense in a situation or show bad judgement in some situations.

It's how I always interpreted the difference between the two. I'll throw in my view on charisma too, brief as it is. (Ability to manipulate social situations or others, trough either good looks, smart dressing or word twisting)

I got a char with above average int (14-16) and low wis (8) and I've always played him as very prone to making the bad call in a situation he haven't faced before, though act extremely calculated and precise after having learnt from previous similar situations. (I.E Don't hit a mage with acid sheath, as it seriously hurt in the past. Instead do X Y or Z to remove it before whacking or apply a different type of attack)

I also have a char with above average int/wis but low charisma. Which is why I play him as someone who could care less about social conduct or tact, and don't much care for his appearance or reputation.

Guidelines on how to play a stat is all well and good, but it won't fit the whole picture I think. Many chars mix and match high/low stats, which will almost always produce a unique outcome in the end. Plus there are SEVERAL ways to RP each stat.

For instance writing guidelines for a high int/wis char might not apply to him, if his charisma is low or the player chooses to play him as a 'genius' (I.E Qirlan syndrome. Lots and lots of brainpower or insight into someone's behavior, but goes about it all wrong when trying to get others to grasp it/see his view or influence another person in most ways./ 'generally accepted' social behavior. (Think Sheldon form Big Bang Theory))
Where someone with lower int/wis but higher charisma might be ALOT better at hiding his intellectual drawbacks trough words and diplomacy or subterfuge and in the end SEEM to have alot more of said brainpower than someone with ACTUAL brainpower. It's all about how it's presented.

On to the real topic though: Unlike the various abilities, known languages have been 'semi' ruled on Amia as 1 language/Intmod + Native ones. Though as I've understood it, no one will have a problem with your char learning more languages from other PCs, or inventing their own as long as it's been RPed.

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Adair - Druid and part time treant cosplayer

Solution: Make the character in your mind and then use all the stupid numbers to describe that character as well as you are able. Power-builders with pollyfilla personalities be damned!

Of course, I have often been proved wrong *looks for my character sheet to make a skill test*.

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Yay for Morphine!
Boo for having enough pain to have to use it..

Case in point. It's 'proven'.

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'Ze Cock! Ze Cock ist shtill aut der!! Kapitulation feiern - NEIN DANKE!'

Either can be used as a past participle or adjective.

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"A somebody was once a nobody who wanted to and did." - Anonymous

No, they're not. 8 dexterity is the dex of an ogre or fire giant, and they can walk, ergo 8 dex means you can walk, for example.
8 intelligence is the int of a gnoll or troglodyte. Can you really justify one of those knowing four five languages? That said, in PnP int isn't connected to languages beyond first level anyway, except t gives you skill points to put into Speak Language when you do actually learn one.



I hadn't realised that ... Oxford only lists -n for past or passive participle. Either way, let he who has perfect English grammar Nazi.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

My point is not that they can't walk. My point is that you never see anyone roleplaying the dexterity of a fire giant or ogre, even though they might have 8 dexterity. But that's what happens when more dexterity simply 'doesn't fit in the build'. I'm just saying don't whine about intelligence when all the other stats get treated just as badly. Having 8 in any stat means that you are quite below human average in whatever aspects are associated with that stat, be it walking, swimming, talking, learning etc. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, nor am I saying that it's a good thing. Some consistency would be nice though. If you're going to govern intelligence, please govern all of the other stats aswell.

And that is why I always have at least 10 in every stat, no matter if it will screw with the buiild or not.

I just can't RP that (Well, save for the low charisma. Social awkwardness maximized)

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

That is commendable. On the server I played on before, you pretty much had to have atleast 10 in every stat, save for exceptional cases. It's not very viable here though, since there are not many builds that are built with the character's traits in mind. Instead, they simply get built to get the most possible juice out of the character, and that is mostly why you see stats with a negative modifier. I say mostly because there are those who choose to have a negative modifier and and then roleplay the consequences of that negative modifier. I reckon the majority doesn't, though.

Heh. I'm just enjoying some prose, I'm not mad at anyone. Though I must admit, setting up strawmans and related rhetorical questions that mispresent the opponent's stance, like Svensk did, is a pet peeve tactic of mine. Don't take it personally, I just figured I'd write lively text for once instead of the dry pedantry I usually stick to.

I did not mean that you who participate in this conversation are the aforementioned tasteless dullards. If you didn't get my point, which I hope most of you nonetheless did, it's this: it's not our problem if some loser plays a 8-Int Fighter with 22 languages. (Not that fighters are any less capable of speaking languages than other classes; PC classes all exceptionally educated individuals above the common riff-raff, save barbarians.) Yes, it's stupid. Yes, they are poor role-players. But yes, if the situation is as dire as suggested, DMs will intervene. The official stance is (or has been) that ridicilous things will not be permitted, even if there's no blanket rule.

And more importantly: whatever rules we have in place won't make those dullards any more interesting or skilled role-players. Their Mary-Sues remain as shallow and boring as ever before, only now it's not as immediately apparent because the rules force them not to betray it immediately. It shouldn't be "immersion-breaking" to see a silly PC with silly language skills. You shouldn't care that much: it should be irrelevant. These people that you'd seek to stop with rules are not worth our time to begin with, so it's counter-productive to disguise them as interesting people. And they certainly will not become better role-players for playing by DM-given rules.

So all in all, enforcing such a rule is not only pointless, but also counter-productive. We don't need an illusion. I'd much rather have the ugly truth and that the measure of every player was readily appareent in their role-play, instead of digging under layers of rules-enforced etiquette. Whenever you enforce blanket rules, you submit everyone to the same standard and expect them to perform equally well. Because it is not possible to expect these Mary-Sue-lovers to become great role-players simply by virtue of following a rule, you in effect condemn the more interesting players (from our perspective, at least) to the mediocrity of these tasteless masses (who are probably only a minority in reality).

That is to say, in summary of everything written above: Implementing rules to artificially improve the apparent (but not the real) quality of RP among "poor players" is not worth the loss of freedom for the rest of us. This is true almost always, but especially in this case where the problem almost as illusory as the solution suggested.

Tormak, I certainly don't that you don't get my superority, that everyone who disagrees with me is stupid (though if you engage in debate, you'd better be prepared to show that you're not) or whatnot. I'm the one who wrote a playful, colorful and fun post that insulted no one in particular (since who'd admit to being one of the dullards?), but you're the one who again resorted to personal attacks. Please take it to PMs with me if there's an actual issue.

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I see three people in this topic alone who came to the conclusion you called them stupid, not counting myself. This is not an uncommon response to the tone your messages take. I am not attacking you; I am simply teling you to stop doing it.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

The last response is quite good though and I agree with it.

The rules would not help against their Mary-Sue or marty Stu characters. They just would hide them better.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

Agreed. I can see that point.

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Thought of something yesterday. While i think the no side has a point, i also think that the Yes side have a good point to.

Whether it's to hide the apparent grim RP; and the tasteless buds that adopt 50 languages on their 8 Int Toon, or actually Validate that a toon has the ability to speak a certain tongue.



I want to emphasis the point that both sides prove good arguments, But there's one thing hanging in the loop.

Testing.

Who's to say that this can't be a grand new epoch on Amia.
And who's to say that this may be the bitter end of everything?

Fact stands - It needs to be taken Into the game, Tested a month or two, to see if it's favourable to have such a system, or Not.

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Do you like lag? No?

Then you don't like this idea. End of story. It's not feasible.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Are you 100% sure it will cause extreme unbearable lag?

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If it causes any lag its unwanted. Lag stacks. Think about it.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor