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Any chance we can make this cap at +4...

Make the cleric and the bard have to rely on finding sure strike equipment too.

Not while Stoneskin potions are a dime a dozen.

Make anything that runs around with premonition and greater stoneskin near untouchable? No way.

You mean, make Druid's godly? Yes! I vote yes! Na, just kidding. I say no.

Terrible idea, sorry. You're not harming the cleric (who gets most of their damage from divine/magic/elemental) or the mage (see above) and not harming the rapier/scimitar/kukri dev critter, but killing everything else.

Paper said: Nerf Scissors but keep Rock as it is.

Famous quote by ...Terra?

Some quote I got from somewhere I don't remember. But yeah.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Any chance we can make this cap at +4...

Make the cleric and the bard have to rely on finding sure strike equipment too.

Would you like me to flying kick you?

Well before you do flying kick me, my rationale is that there's many ways around the stoneskin line of spells. Elemental damage is not stopped, sneak attacks and sheer damage can overwhelm it, it's on the breach list and I'm sure there are many other ways. With the existing prevalence of umd every has access to breech too. Stoneskin potions being over available is a problem with pretty much potions save healing. That should be addressed in concert. Furthermore, a free +5 from a spell is a free extra mythal crafting slot which is an additional boon.

Alternatively if +5 from GMW is too precious to all the clerics, bards etc out there, magic vestments could be capped to +4 for similar reasons.

I don't think that mages and clerics should be able to cast spells at all. Why shouldn't they have to rely on potions like everyone else?

For that matter, the fighters hit way to hard and to accurate. Why can't they be more like mages.

Okay, so it was a bad idea. You guys don't have to be dicks about it. Leave him alone.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Okay, so it was a bad idea. You guys don't have to be (censored) about it. Leave him alone.

1. What's with the outrage over some good-natured ribbing?
2. The discussion is still ongoing. Look three posts up.
3. I find it ironic that you decided to start calling people (censored) in an otherwise mild thread. Yeah, you sure are being a champion of civility here.

Sigh. Post Constructive or not at all.

As for the topic itself; not likely to be changed. Yes, it stinks, but until a formal proposal is put forward it isn't likely to be considered, due to the sheer gravity of such changes. It sounds minor, but there'd be a pretty sharp outcry against it.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Paper said: Nerf Scissors but keep Rock as it is.

Pretty much that. If people can cast spells that give X/+5 DR, why shouldn't people be able to cast spells that let weapons penetrate X/+5 DR?

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Make the cleric and the bard have to rely on finding sure strike equipment too.
[...]
Alternatively if +5 from GMW is too precious to all the clerics, bards etc out there, magic vestments could be capped to +4 for similar reasons.

If by "similar reasons" you mean "to encourage people to grind epic bosses," in my opinion there's no part of this that is a good idea.

I'm not for changing it any myself, but if the community were to agree that it was over powered you could do something to shorten the duration so that it wasn't semi permanent. Change it to say 2 or 3 rounds per level.... just a random thought on the subject.

msheeler wrote:

I'm not for changing it any myself, but if the community were to agree that it was over powered you could do something to shorten the duration so that it wasn't semi permanent. Change it to say 2 or 3 rounds per level.... just a random thought on the subject.

As implied-but-not-explicitly-stated above, this would hurt everyone who parties with casters. Since the first action a caster takes in a party is to give GMW to everyone who can't cast it himself.

The only "balance" that this would achieve is making everybody worse at hurting mages (NPC and PC alike), so transparently so that it's hard to imagine any other motive for suggesting it.

Why?

In FvF you get buffed by the Wizard.

In PvM you get buffed by the Wizard.

The only time that you don't have the exact same spells as a cleric/wizard is when you are soloing.

Tell it for what it is, please nerf the capabilities of classes that Solo.

The only real argument I see against it has little to do with counters and more to deal with equipment.

+5 AC = 3 Powers.
+5 Enhancement = 3 Powers
Keen = 1 Power

This means that a Cleric gets (3armor + 3shield + 3deflect + 3weapon) 12 more powers to use within the Mythal System. 15 (3natural) if Plant Domain.
A Bard and a Mage gets 4 more powers (3 weapon + 1 keen), unless they have EMA in which case this becomes 13 (3 weapon + 3 armor + 3 natural + 3 deflection + 1 keen)
A Druid gets 3 powers from Barkskin.

In some cases this can mean such things as an additional +6 Saves (Scarab of Protection +6) at the cost of a (comparitively) low-level spell. Additional Saves, Regen, Statistic Boosts, or Specials all unavailable to the non-caster due to lacking the equipment-based ability to possess these. As a DM, I'm quite privy to some of the concoctions in build, gear, and stat that can be made through intense utilization of this shortcoming in Amia's internal balance.

That's the argument I see against the spells Barkskin, Epic Mage Armor, Magic Vestment, Shield of Faith, Greater Magic Weapon, and to a far lesser extent; Keen. That said, the better alternative may be tweaking instead the crafting system in time to make these far less prevalent, than to try 'rewrite' these spells.

That and the fact that clerics and druids get more item properties due to spells is because they have a lower BAB which means 5 less AB and one less attack then the fighter classes. As flawed or unfair people see it, its a matter of balance.

After the 1.69 changes, people work hard to make their clerics top notch. Although holy sword was horribly broken which I won't deny, the compromise by 1.69 was a huge blow to Paladins which are dependent on GMW more then ever. With the Amia specific cap to Charisma based saves on paladin/blackguard levels its just that step harder for both clerics and paladins. Try to remove the small bonuses and it will cause an uproar, that's true.

To be fair, the BAB Argument is sort of bollocks.

Bards - +7 AB (+10 Effective) due to Curse Song.
Clerics - Divine Power
^ More than accounts for the 3/4 spread. Especially in Divine Power's sense where it actually benefits from the lower BAB.

Not much of a trade, given Bards have plentiful Bardsongperday, and it's only a low-level spell for Clerics. Mages themselves are indeed boned on this one; but they don't fight normally anyway, they're spellhurlers. Along the same lines, Druids have their Shapeshift Forms which now grant more than enough ability when paired with their companion.

But when you add in the time and the sheer amount of self buffs it takes for a cleric or druid to put themself in a position of utter melee pwnage, the fighter's already well asleep. Especially when you don't have haste. I could cast anywhere between 15 and 25 buffs just on myself, not including the Jugg/companion/equivalent IX summon or (if you were cowardly enough) an epic summon.

Everything has its downsides for their ups. If you're whining a cleric has a +5 weapon and armour and your fighter does not, don't give them an opportunity to buff. Its that simple. Hell if you party with them, they'll generally buff you so why complain?

Anyone who hunts with a mage / cleric / bard / anything else that can create +5 weapons gets all the benefits of those +5 weapons anyway. The only people who don't are the people who solo and aren't one of those classes ... and they're the ones that 'benefit' from removing the +5, by everyone else down a notch.

Of course, everyone will be wanting the +5 weapons anyway, so I would imagine it would result in a lot more boss grinding, especially by those who already have it. Also, isn't the ability to make a weapon +5 by GMW taken into account when requesting DC weapons?

I don't see any real benefit in removing the +5 to be honest, apart from appeasing the "I don't get it why should they" argumentation. If it's 'fairness' in that respect that you're after, then ys, but the thing is you are harming every caster and, consequently, every single person that parties with a caster, in the game for the benefit of this faux-fairness.

BrainSplitter wrote:

Along the same lines, Druids have their Shapeshift Forms which now grant more than enough ability when paired with their companion.

Those were not altered, only shifter ones.

O? My bad then. Thought they'd been touched up a bit as well.

Clerics the worst out of all of them, especially with so many people taking War Domain for cheese as of late.

+9 Str/Con/Dex
+9 Cha
+5 Wisdom (Amulet Switching)

Theres 41 Mythal Powers you don't need on your gear set. Add in all the spells Ron mentioned. 41 Powers free without War Domain 53 Powers Free with it. War and Plant 56 Powers Free. And there you have the reason my Anhuran Cleric Maxed Str/Con/Wisdom/Cha effortlessly and had 80 Discipline, 50+ concentration, 50+ spellcraft and 68 AC.

Offtopic Spoiler is blacked out
This is the reason I believe that the best fix to the server would be adding a concentration check of spell level + d100 vs Concentration to Greater Sanctuary over -anything- else.

Change that to spellcraft and I'd be on board.

Only change id like to see to GMW is that it be +1/5 CL Basicly meaning to have that mighty +5, you need to actually be invested and have 25 lvls in the caster class. This could apply to other things as well, im sure lots of Cleric spells, but i dont play a cleric so id not go into that, as a Wizard having SS or GSS changed to X dr +1/5 lvl would work as well, and even counter the GMW change from being to powerful/nerf heavy. So basicly..

GMW changed to +1/5 cl
SS GSS changed to +1/5 cl
Magic Vestmant changed to +1/5 cl

So to get the DR breaking power of GMW you need a caster that is in the same teir as the person that cast the Stone Skin, and to counter the AC given by the Magic Vestmants with the AB given by the GMW, you need again the same.

This is how it was on a low magic server i used to play on.. but low magic means the highest + anything you can add to your own gear was +3.. +3 enchantment, +3 int on rings.. ect ect. And as i recall you could only have 1 thing on rings.. weapons could have a few i belive.. and lvl 25 was rare becouse perma death.. >_> Good times.

Changing this is simply not feasible on Amia without changing every monster, most every item, and completely overhauling the power level of the entire server.

Eh, ive no idea in that department. Would just like to see more reasion more pure or at least 25 lvls in a caster class. But im biased surly.

belgianbonzai wrote:

BrainSplitter wrote:

Along the same lines, Druids have their Shapeshift Forms which now grant more than enough ability when paired with their companion.

Those were not altered, only shifter ones.

Aye, only the shifters got love in that area. Druid forms still stink.

Druids make up for it though with other nifty gimmicks.

Perfect idea...remove all magic (divine or otherwise), remove all monsters, and make the level cap lvl 3. Then what could we have to complain about?

Well...
For starters, I wouldn't have anything to kill for fun. Except you. And hey, let's face it.. Level 3 PvPs would have just as much whining and complaining about balance.

"My ray of frost just -can't- kill that fighter! Fighters are clearly overpowered! FIX IT!"

Pfft, noobs. You don't use Ice Beam, you use Daze. Duhhh. Any level 3 veteren knows that!

HellScourge wrote:

Druids make up for it though with other nifty gimmicks.

Nifty gimmicks? Do explain, if you please.

Probably referring to the other hundred ways a druid can kick your ass if they need to. I've seen epic level druids solo the Abyss without breaking a sweat, just because they can summon a party whenever they need one.

Druid forms don't need any love, because they would then have an even simpler time soloing every major hunting ground on the server.

jenmeme wrote:

Perfect idea...remove all magic (divine or otherwise), remove all monsters, and make the level cap lvl 3. Then what could we have to complain about?

You people need new material. Seriously, its almost as bad as the ppl that have to correct spelling to feel good about themselves. Get togeather with them, put your heads togeather and think hard. Im sure you can come up with something new.

You quoted me...I'm touched!

If it were capped to +4, I think the spell becomes entirely redundant. Why use it when you can have a +4 from a mythal reagent, using the spell slot for something more useful.

I don't see capping it to +4 as solving any real issue.

If there was a change (which I can't see happening, but anyway.. hypothetical) I can imagine nobody apart from a select few using the spell. Basically meaning that it'd be made redundant.
Why cast a spell on your friend's sword if it's already as good as it can ever get? Or less so, as the situation is you can get a +5 weapon from a DC request.

Its not changing I don't have the time to rescale every creature for a GMW change. Discos UD would take weeks by itself.

Good every week the same couple of people talk about nerfing things... yes some things are broken but not everyspell or feat needs nerfing.

Xenos wrote:

jenmeme wrote:

Perfect idea...remove all magic (divine or otherwise), remove all monsters, and make the level cap lvl 3. Then what could we have to complain about?

You people need new material. Seriously, its almost as bad as the ppl that have to correct spelling to feel good about themselves. Get togeather with them, put your heads togeather and think hard. Im sure you can come up with something new.

*together.

That was too tempting.

You! *points at Dakotaen* In the cornor with the other one!

It is people by the way, not ppl.

oshizo2 wrote:

Good every week the same couple of people talk about nerfing things... yes some things are broken but not every spell or feat needs nerfing.

Well, nothings changing anyway so relax. I know that was aimed at me. I was also the only one fighting contagions corner so no, I don't try and just nerf things for the sake of it.

But if you want my honest opinion on the matter - Yes, no class should be able to solo. If some classes (and we all know which ones they are), need to be nerfed to achieve that, then i'd be all for it.

"No class should be able to solo" is so.. vague? Solo what? Should my lvl 30 wizard not walk from Winya to Binder Dale through the forest becouse of the Gnomes?

I dont think the issue is so much with being able to solo, but rather what people are soloing. The main thing is the very end game stuff.. Actend, Abyss, and Epic bosses. I dont belive the answer so much is in nerfing/buffing tell we find some magical balance, that likly dosnt exist, but rather simply hard code it.. Make it so you CAN NOT leave the city in the abyss unless you have a group, make it so you can NOT enter Actend unless your in a group, and make it so bosses wont spawn, unless there is more then one person. Some places and things i belive were never ment to be solo'ed, but they are becouse of builds and such, rather then making monsters and bosses harder so the 'normal' player cant beat it, just to give the power builds a work out is kinda of silly.

Though ive said this before and i think it was ignored then, too.

First, nothing's wrong with soloing. It should be discouraged but changing feats and spells is the wrong direction. If you look at some of the recent critter changes, Yuan-Ti for example, you'll notice you need a lot of money from healkits and potions to keep your summon alive. Mosh is the critterguy and he knows how to make soloers bleed their money.

Second, any cleric/sorc/wiz doing anything solo in epic areas gets an epic Nelson-on-cue-"Hahaaa!" from me, because it drains money, is slow and the chances you die are higher. Getting a party, from my dirty powergaming PoV, is faster and involves less risk.

I don't see how another class or build being able to solo a higher leveled area should have any bearing on your personal enjoyment of the game.

Mind, nerfing these buffing classes also hinders their ability to help their group. Who cares about dragging along mister bard/mage/cleric when their spell capabilities are surpassed by your gear?

It is impossible to prevent people from hunting solo, someone will always find a way to do it

GMW

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