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Why doesn't deathward work against implosion? It is a fort save vrs instant death.... true it isn't exactly death magic but it is save vrs death.

Last edited by Gunz on Wed, May 19 2010, 0:29 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

Death Ward
Necromancy
Level: Clr 4, Death 4, Drd 5, Pal 4
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Living creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.

This spell doesn’t remove negative levels that the subject has already gained, nor does it affect the saving throw necessary 24 hours after gaining a negative level.

Death ward does not protect against other sorts of attacks even if those attacks might be lethal.

Quote:

Implosion
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: One corporeal creature/round
Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds)
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.

It just doesn't ... it's not a death effect, but the physical destruction of your body that kills you.

Semantics, any spell or magical effect that kills (not damages) when the target fails a save is a magical death effect regardless of the form that death takes.

If the thought is to nerf it at all, I'd say limit it to force 1 person to roll, each 5 caster levels-10 (which would be max 4 at level 30).

That way it can't abolish a group of 7-8 that are happening to stand in the area of effect.

If I recall, it used to, but a Bioware patch altered it.

IIRC, death effects do one of several possible things: rip out your soul, disconnect your soul from your body, or snuff out your lifeforce itself (destruction of the soul). All of these have to do with lifeforce/the soul itself, and that is what is affected. It's not actual physical destruction in most cases with death effect. An implosion, on the other hand, doesn't affect the soul, and does it's killing simply by massive physical force, the same as dropping a couple tons of granite on someone would do. Thus, it's not a death effect.

Yep. Same reason Death Ward doesn't protect against Implosion is the same reason it doesn't protect against Dev: physical force caving your chest in doesn't always constitute death magic.

Well, if it's magic and it's whole purpose is to kill... then I'd assume it's death magic. Regardless of the manifestation of the magic's form. A Dev Crit'er swinging a sword isn't magic, but a mage causing a resonance in your body that crushes your inner workings most definitely is. It just makes sense that any spell that requires a save or die roll should fall under the category of death magic.

Not really.

Death Ward protects against death spells ie spells the directly kill you.

Implosion however is not a death spell; its extremely violent force evocation that crushes the body. Same as how Weird/Phantasmal Killer is heart attack inducing Mind spell. The spells themselves don't necessarily kill you, but your bodily failure as a result of them do.

RigorIYIortis wrote:

Semantics, any spell or magical effect that kills (not damages) when the target fails a save is a magical death effect regardless of the form that death takes.

It's not semantics. It's the difference between a death spell and a spell that simply kills you from sheer damage. It's why Deathward wouldn't save you from Disintegrate, either.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

ainjyll wrote:

Well, if it's magic and it's whole purpose is to kill... then I'd assume it's death magic. Regardless of the manifestation of the magic's form. A Dev Crit'er swinging a sword isn't magic, but a mage causing a resonance in your body that crushes your inner workings most definitely is. It just makes sense that any spell that requires a save or die roll should fall under the category of death magic.

No, because death magic is about removing life energy whereas implosion is about crushing their body. It is no more death magic than a machine at the wreckers crushing cars is.

Edit: 3x combo!

If I instant-die from an Ice Storm... isn't that then an instant death effect?

Shouldn't Death Ward protect me from Ice Storm then?

:roll:

Well, it's debated in PnP, too. There's no clear consensus on whether Implosion should be subject to Death Ward, and if not, then why. The explanations here don't convince me.

If a death effect has the implosion spell ID (IE: applied from the script associated with implo) it causes instant death.

If not, it need to be fixed within the script itself.

Control undead vs mind immunity is the same thing.

I have no problem with a 4th level non-scaling spell not affecting a 9th level spell. Counterspelling works fine for this type of thing. Only needing 7 caster levels to be immune from a spell needing 17 caster levels....

Bravo21 wrote:

I have no problem with a 4th level non-scaling spell not affecting a 9th level spell. Counterspelling works fine for this type of thing. Only needing 7 caster levels to be immune from a spell needing 17 caster levels....

Wail
Weird
Phantasmal Killer
Finger of Death
Cloudkill
Circle of Death
lv. 20 PM death touch

etc

TormakSaber wrote:

Bravo21 wrote:

I have no problem with a 4th level non-scaling spell not affecting a 9th level spell. Counterspelling works fine for this type of thing. Only needing 7 caster levels to be immune from a spell needing 17 caster levels....

Wail
Weird
Phantasmal Killer
Finger of Death
Cloudkill
Circle of Death
lv. 20 PM death touch

etc

Sweet! A whole list of spells that are not Implosion! Are you trying to start another argument, or am I wrong in that your comments are both directed at me and have no relevance to the topic other than being intentionally antaganistic.

I guess you showed me though....

Watch the tone, Bravo. To be fair, I didn't see what your comment contributed to the topic either.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

Watch the tone, Bravo. To be fair, I didn't see what your comment contributed to the topic either.

My appologies Bobo. However being stalked from topic to topic is getting old.

You made a sarcastic remark aimed at how a level 4 non scaling spell shouldn't stop a level 9 spell.

I proceeded to list level 9's, 7's and "Much higher than level 4" abilities are are, in fact, stopped by this spell.

Anything else you read from that is your own paranoia.

TormakSaber wrote:

You made a sarcastic remark aimed at how a level 4 non scaling spell shouldn't stop a level 9 spell.

I proceeded to list level 9's, 7's and "Much higher than level 4" abilities are are, in fact, stopped by this spell.

Anything else you read from that is your own paranoia.

I didn't realize it came across as sarcastic, you did chose to view it as such and respond though. What came after was definately sarcastic and was appropriatly pointed out by Bobo. Perhaps you could go on to tell me what exactly, besides not listing several spells, was in error in my statement? My opinion that an evocation spell shouldn't be thwarted by a Necromancy spell?

Mr Mago wrote:

If I instant-die from an Ice Storm... isn't that then an instant death effect?

Shouldn't Death Ward protect me from Ice Storm then?

:roll:

Topic could have been locked after those words of wisdom, no more needed to be said.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Yep. Same reason Death Ward doesn't protect against Implosion is the same reason it doesn't protect against Dev: physical force caving your chest in doesn't always constitute death magic.

Pretty much what happens; incredible force is trying to crush you into the size of a knife point. It's not stripping your soul or harming you through negative energy.

hendrack wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

If I instant-die from an Ice Storm... isn't that then an instant death effect?

Shouldn't Death Ward protect me from Ice Storm then?

:roll:

Topic could have been locked after those words of wisdom, no more needed to be said.

Umm... no?

An Ice Storm spell isn't roll a save or die spell. Implosion is. The type of damage they deal is nothing at all related. Let's say two adventurers take an Ice Storm to their face. One is a fighter with 400 hp, the other is a mage with 100. The rolls for damage come out and it's.... we'll say... 120 damage for both of them to keep it simple. The mage dies, but the fighter lives on. If it was an implosion spell, it's roll a save or die. Completely different.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, it's debated in PnP, too. There's no clear consensus on whether Implosion should be subject to Death Ward, and if not, then why. The explanations here don't convince me.

It says it stops all 'death spells' ... and all the ones that it allows you to stop specifically have [Death] written beside their school name (which as far as I know, are all Necromancy), which indicates that these are the death spells (since they're the death subschool).
What I suppose is unclear is in the description 'magical death effects'. Personally, I take it (as apparently did Bioware) to mean any magical effect that emulates a Death spell, not anything that requires a Save or Die.

Deathward also specifically states it has no effect on protecting against death vs outright damage. One could use this as an argument for Implosion and Disintegrate being immune to it - sure, you're protected from dying, but you're still a singularity / pillar of salt.

I've read this entire thread and it sounds like the same thing is being repeated.

Implosion is not 'death magic' - it crushes the body. It's physical. That's why a Fort. save is needed.

As has been said, with Implosion, you are crushed. It's nothing to do with your life force or psychological, deadly fear or crushing force. If you die from Implosion, you would, in theory, be a crushed corpse.

With Finger of Death, Wail of The Banshee, Circle of Death and Deathless master touch, your life force is removed and the body. With Phantasmal Killer and Weird, you're scared to death. With Cloudkill, you're poisoned to death.

So what's the major difference? All of these either affect your life force, scare you to death or poison you to death. They kill without destroying the body -- well, you could argue against that when it comes to Cloudkill. But Cloudkill uses a magical poison that instantly kills you if you don't make a save. So while it does affect the physical self, Implosion literally destroys your physical form. That's the only rational reason I can come up with anyway. Really, the only one that helps make a case against Implosion though is Cloudkill.

Exactly. Same thing again.

...How about just one more time!

Implosion crushes the body. It does not steal/destroy/remove your life force or soul.

Finger of Death, Wail of The Banshee, Circle of Death and Deathless master touch, as Gunz said, your soul belongs to Shang Tsung.

Oh, might I add that Cloudkill uses magical poison that doesn't even require that you breath it in?

Excellent explanations. I don't see the confusion here.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Oh, might I add that Cloudkill uses magical poison that doesn't even require that you breath it in?

Contact poison exists all over the world. See: Jellyfish, anything that stings you, anything that burns on contact, etc.

Yeah... in fact, I believe the deadliest venomous creature on Earth uses contact poison. The box jellyfish, often found off the coast of Australia. Try googling "box jellyfish sting pictures" if you want to see what they can do, but it's not for those with sensitive stomachs. That's sort of what I'd think cloudkill could do to a person.

True enough.

But my point is that the gas kills you instantly on contact, no real ingestion needed, unless you make a fort. save. Its very super magical, not like a natural poison. A magical death effect. In effect, nothing significant really happens to your body. Implosion though, you're a crushed deformed block of nasty. As is typical of evocation, it's very very destructive. It does lots of physical damage to kill.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

True enough.

But my point is that the gas kills you instantly on contact, no real ingestion needed, unless you make a fort. save. Its very super magical, not like a natural poison. A magical death effect. In effect, nothing significant really happens to your body. Implosion though, you're a crushed deformed block of nasty. As is typical of evocation, it's very very destructive. It does lots of physical damage to kill.

It's not a magical death, though. Your death is purely physical - the poison kills you. If you are too low a level, you are simply not fit enough to survive in it, while if you're above four (or above six if you have low fort), you can live long enough to watch your constitution plummet. Just because you can't see the physical damage, doesn't mean it's not there (such as people who take cyanide).

Also, injected poisons (stinging) aren't good examples of contact poisons. They're injected after all, not true contact poison. That includes jellyfish. They sting too. They shoot out little poison filled things that pump venom into your flesh. A better example maybe something like Poison Ivy. All it does is touch your skin and you feel the burn. Regardless, I get your point.

Last edited by Gunz on Thu, May 20 2010, 4:52 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Yurell wrote:

It's not a magical death, though. Your death is purely physical - the poison kills you. If you are too low a level, you are simply not fit enough to survive in it, while if you're above four (or above six if you have low fort), you can live long enough to watch your constitution plummet. Just because you can't see the physical damage, doesn't mean it's not there (such as people who take cyanide).

Sure it is. You die instantly without it being injected or ingested. Sounds pretty damn magical to me. I also never said it wasn't physical as well. I said "nothing significant really happens to your body", not "nothing happens to your body."

I think they just worded Death Ward poorly, and could have simply cut out the words 'magical death effects' to still have the same effect.
My rule of thumb is that if you simply die because of it, it's stoppable by Deathward, but if something physically kills you (this includes being scared to death and having an aneurysm), it's not stoppable by Deathward.

Last edited by Yurell on Thu, May 20 2010, 5:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Yurell wrote:

It's not a magical death, though. Your death is purely physical - the poison kills you. If you are too low a level, you are simply not fit enough to survive in it, while if you're above four (or above six if you have low fort), you can live long enough to watch your constitution plummet. Just because you can't see the physical damage, doesn't mean it's not there (such as people who take cyanide).

Sure it is. You die instantly without it being injected or injected. Sounds pretty damn magical to me. I also never said it wasn't physical as well. I said "nothing significant really happens to your body", not "nothing happens to your body."

I'd call death pretty significant tbh. VX, for example, is a contact poison with an LD50 of ~730 mg for skin contact. I'd imagine Cloudkill is simply conjuring a large amount of a very potent toxin, and this toxin kills you. This is supported by the fact that Cloukill is conjuration, and creatures immune to poison are immune to the spell.

Edit: I should point out also that unless you're a really low level you do not die instantly. You lose 1d4 points of constitution per round in PNP. In NWN, because they can't deal with ths mechanicall, they simply changed it to 1d10 points of acid damage per round.

Isn't VX the stuff that a droplet the size of Lincoln's eyeball on a U.S. penny is lethal?

You're not getting what I'm saying here. Of course death is major. But death doesn't mean anything huge has to happen to the physical self. My point is, Implosion is a very stand out spell that literally destroys your body. Poison doesn't destroy your body. Perhaps at a chemical and cellular level, yeah. But your body is still in one piece, not distorted by crushing or breaking. Hence why nothing saves you from Implosion. There's no spell that protects you from being crushed to death.

Last edited by Yurell on Thu, May 20 2010, 5:11 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Gers wrote:

Isn't VX the stuff that a droplet the size of Lincoln's eyeball on a U.S. penny is lethal?

You need about 15% of a teaspoon for the LD50 through skin contact. For inhalation you'd need a few large sand grains to hit the LCt50

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

You're not getting what I'm saying here. Of course death is major. But death doesn't mean anything huge has to happen to the physical self. My point is, Implosion is a very stand out spell that literally destroys your body. Poison doesn't destroy your body. Perhaps at a chemical and cellular level, yeah. But your body is still in one piece, not distorted by crushing or breaking. Hence why nothing saves you from Implosion. There's no spell that protects you from being crushed to death.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding ... are you saying that Deathward should protect you from Cloudkill, or that nothing should protect you from Implosion?

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

With Finger of Death, Wail of The Banshee, Circle of Death and Deathless master touch, your life force is removed and the body. With Phantasmal Killer and Weird, you're scared to death. With Cloudkill, you're poisoned to death.

All these fall into categories where you can protect yourself from them. Death ward for the first bunch; trues seeing, fear immunity, mind blank for the second bunch and poison immunity for the last. Implosion is unique among them all. There is not protective spell for it. Not death ward, not anything.

I'm quite sure there are spells that can make you incorporeal or into gaseous form (which would make you immune to it).
Beyond that, all I can think of is Spell Resistance and Antimagic Field (which are really trivial responses, since they stop basically anything).

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

People its a spell and its a fortitude save. It isnt really overpowered, at all.

And with all the lame PvP builds, it's not that useful anyway.

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

MadrikVale wrote:

And with all the lame PvP builds, it's not that useful anyway.

lol, you think you need a pvp build haha.

Nah I just want to implode everyone and rename the island to Madrikia.

MadrikVale wrote:

And with all the lame PvP builds, it's not that useful anyway.

Thank you, Madrik, you've summed up my perspective on this quite well, so allow me to respond in a manner such as this: Get out of my head! :shock:

If you're so tired of getting blown away by clerics slinging implosion spells all over the place that you want to see the game changed (for like the billionth time, I might add), save the DMs (and everyone who has a cleric toon) some trouble and build a con based DD so your fort save will be so obscenely high that you would absolutely -have- to roll a one to die. (I don't mean to offend with my good-natured smart-assery, of course) My point being: high fort save = deathward for implosion.

Not to mention the fact that this is a high magic server means that there are other ways to get around the spell, like mythalling fort onto your gear... Or just not picking a fight with said implosion slinging cleric.

Formerly: Implosion and Deathward

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