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TormakSaber
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 Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 3:03 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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This, this was part two of the counter to the silly divine class dipping mages and such who took 1-3 levels of a class and got +15 AC or damage.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 8:14 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Much needs of course.
Can we do something to divine power such as removing extra APR that it gives? If clerics want to have 4APR they should take four full BAB class levels pre-epic like everyone else.
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hendrack
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 8:23 AM |
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Joined: 24 Sep 2007
Location: Vienna
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Has been discussed before I think. No.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 8:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Is a shame.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 8:36 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Is a shame really as its totally unnecessary.
Edit: The extra APR that is.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 9:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It should come off both or neither.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 9:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Bring it up to 3 APR for both ^^
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 9:53 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Yurell wrote: Bring it up to 3 APR for both ^^ No. A wizard has .50 and a Cleric has .75. If the APR goes the wizard gets 2 and the Cleric gets 3.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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oshizo2
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 12:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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Okay why would you take the apr off of that spell. Tbh when using the divine stuff coupled with favor and the other one the
4th attack it adds is so low it rarely hits. Besides that as a divine user cleric 3 apr seems to work better anyways. Maybe I'm just imagining things though.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 12:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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oshizo2 wrote: Okay why would you take the apr off of that spell. Tbh when using the divine stuff coupled with favor and the other one the
4th attack it adds is so low it rarely hits. Besides that as a divine user cleric 3 apr seems to work better anyways. Maybe I'm just imagining things though. You are.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 14:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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4th APR is added at highest BAB. The fact clerics can get a better absolute BAB value than a WM is criminal in itself. The fact they can have 3 of those attacks at highest BAB is well...an issue i felt worth bringing up
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 14:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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That's not how additional APR work but it's no less broken.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 15:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: 4th APR is added at highest BAB. The fact clerics can get a better absolute BAB value than a WM is criminal in itself. The fact they can have 3 of those attacks at highest BAB is well...an issue i felt worth bringing up Bonus Attacks scale at -5 like normal attacks. If you hit a Great Cleave in the first attack of the first flurry therefore your Bonus attack is actually however many Great Cleaves triggered against the dying target x -5 lower than the max BAB. I've seen my haste attack fire for -5 AB before.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 16:14 PM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Really...Assumed it worked like haste. Good to know.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 16:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Quote: I've seen my haste attack fire for -5 AB before Same scale for all bonus attacks dude.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Silvarus
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 16:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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TormakSaber wrote: This, this was part two of the counter to the silly divine class dipping mages and such who took 1-3 levels of a class and got +15 AC or damage. In exchange for a heavy focus on charisma. I am fairly pissed off by these changes.
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 16:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Down goes the Paladin / Sorcerer.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 17:03 PM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Would have gone down with the Saves nerf anyway.
The AC nerf not so much since Wizards and Sorcs gear to 15/16 Dodge AC anyway I know I personally wouldn't waste levels, and CL on 4/5 AC when i can take expertise/improved expertise for the same effect.
Not worth discussing further anyway. If you want to be a holy warrior take the levels, the logic at least is evident.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Silvarus
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 20:02 PM |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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BrainSplitter wrote: Down goes the Paladin / Sorcerer. It already went. Gagis became a cleric/sorcerer with the saves nerf. Now I have no idea what to build him to without having to change the character dramatically. A pure cleric/fighter is next, and probably more powerful, but not the same character. This also killed my plans for a new character to make a comeback with. No more charisma based barbarians. I saw the point with the saves nerf but the divine might and divine shield kills a lot of interesting and in no way broken builds that might support interesting character consepts. I know it is useless to whine, but I needed to get that out of my system. I am not a fan of nerfing. (Unless it is the nerfing of HIPS of course. ;P)
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 23:45 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Why change out of Cleric/Sorcerer? Surely you chose those classes for your the roleplay of your character, and not for the raw powerbuild potential at the time.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Wyjyn
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 0:34 AM |
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Joined: 11 Jan 2007
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MoshingChris wrote: Would have gone down with the Saves nerf anyway.
The AC nerf not so much since Wizards and Sorcs gear to 15/16 Dodge AC anyway I know I personally wouldn't waste levels, and CL on 4/5 AC when i can take expertise/improved expertise for the same effect.
Not worth discussing further anyway. If you want to be a holy warrior take the levels, the logic at least is evident. I thought that casting with expertise activated cancelled it on amia?
_________________
Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 5:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It does.
And a 27 sorceror/2 rogue/1 paladin is still a 27 sorceror which is MORE than aenough to kill anything on Amia with a hand behind your back.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Silvarus
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 7:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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BrainSplitter wrote: Why change out of Cleric/Sorcerer? Surely you chose those classes for your the roleplay of your character, and not for the raw powerbuild potential at the time. You sure do have something against me. I try to pick useful choises that make sense for the character. I see no reason to keep things that serve no purpose.
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 9:22 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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So you admit that you only took paladin to dip the saves and AC and not because our character was a Paladin. A slong as we're clear on that, and we're clear that you're changing yur entire build because you no longer have 50+ universal saves and maxed dodge AC with the click of a button.
I mean, your counter argument is "in return for a heavy focus in Charisma"? Please. Charisma is THE most powerful ability in Dungeons and Dragons. You can run AC, damage, andsaves off it and run an entire casting class (or 2) around it as well.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Silvarus
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 10:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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TormakSaber wrote: So you admit that you only took paladin to dip the saves and AC and not because our character was a Paladin. A slong as we're clear on that, and we're clear that you're changing yur entire build because you no longer have 50+ universal saves and maxed dodge AC with the click of a button.
I mean, your counter argument is "in return for a heavy focus in Charisma"? Please. Charisma is THE most powerful ability in Dungeons and Dragons. You can run AC, damage, andsaves off it and run an entire casting class (or 2) around it as well. Gägä is/was a paladin. I said I saw the point in the saves nerf, but not the AC nerf. Gägä did not have Divine Shield before the rebuild by the way. I should have known there would be another nerf a few weeks later. Now he has two feats that simply do not function. These feats are the ability that serves no purpose. I would prefer the saveless paladin version over that, since it serves the function of enabling armour focus. The Divine Shield and Divine Might change however makes many more characters impossible than just pala/sorc and crazy blackguard combinations. For example I was just about to make a "fake paladin" barbarian17/cleric3/CoT10, which definitely was not any more cheesy than any other build, but is no longer doable. For that one charisma focus is a large price to pay for small str but gives great fun and confusion to people who expect only paladins to smite evil and lay on hands using divne might and shield. I'd prefer banning some notorious builds over nerfing several abilities one at a time.
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 10:50 AM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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I personally think the saves nerf was enough. As it is useless to debate, I'll just accept the poor destiny of many amazingly-hawt-yet-gimmicky builds.
Don't worry, Gägäpoo. There are still decent Sorcy builds including Paladin and Cleric levels, as Sorcerer is the most powerful class, anyway.
_________________  UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 15:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Silvarus wrote: TormakSaber wrote: So you admit that you only took paladin to dip the saves and AC and not because our character was a Paladin. A slong as we're clear on that, and we're clear that you're changing yur entire build because you no longer have 50+ universal saves and maxed dodge AC with the click of a button.
I mean, your counter argument is "in return for a heavy focus in Charisma"? Please. Charisma is THE most powerful ability in Dungeons and Dragons. You can run AC, damage, andsaves off it and run an entire casting class (or 2) around it as well. Gägä is/was a paladin. I said I saw the point in the saves nerf, but not the AC nerf. Gägä did not have Divine Shield before the rebuild by the way. I should have known there would be another nerf a few weeks later. Now he has two feats that simply do not function. These feats are the ability that serves no purpose. I would prefer the saveless paladin version over that, since it serves the function of enabling armour focus. The Divine Shield and Divine Might change however makes many more characters impossible than just pala/sorc and crazy blackguard combinations. For example I was just about to make a "fake paladin" barbarian17/cleric3/CoT10, which definitely was not any more cheesy than any other build, but is no longer doable. For that one charisma focus is a large price to pay for small str but gives great fun and confusion to people who expect only paladins to smite evil and lay on hands using divne might and shield. I'd prefer banning some notorious builds over nerfing several abilities one at a time. Why? You can still make a sorc/paladin. you just get the deserved amount of benefit from your class skills for the amount of levelling you'e done in the class. See: HIPS at 6. Quote: I should have known there would be another nerf a few weeks later. Now he has two feats that simply do not function. Now you're exaggerating. They still work. you get as much saves, and AC, and damage as you have Paladin levels. It's not my fault you shamelessly gamed the system and took 1 Paladin level knowing you'd get the full benefit of both abilities. Deal with it, sorry. Rather nerf than ban. You can still make your sorc/paladin, but you don't get 50+ universal saves and 70 AC for doing *nothing* now.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Silvarus
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 15:55 PM |
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Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Location: Jyväskylä, Finland, Europe
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Classes are defined by their abilities, not their names. That charisma-based dwarven barbarian is far more important to me in this than Gägä's saves. He is an inactive character after all. Do not judge me for making characters when there was nothing wrong with powerbuilding. I am concerned over all the things that can not be done in the future because someone dislikes a certain old build.
I know it is usless to whine, but I can still state my disagreement.
By the way. I was not exaggerating. I rebuilt Gagis from pala/sorc with saves and no shield to a cleric/sorc with no saves but shield a few weeks before this change was announced. If I had known I would not have rebuilt him and taken those useless feats. Luckily I postponed making new characters until the nerfs are becoming more clear or I would be more frustrated over suddenly changed character consepts that do not work in either mechanics or their roles.
The problem is not having a clue on what you people consider fair now and what you will consider fair in the future. Constant change makes planning fairly difficult.
_________________
Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 21:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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Out of curiousity how is duration of divine might/shield handled with the changes. Is that capped by your clr/Pal/BG level similar to the dmg/AC or is the duration unaffected?
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 21:41 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Blackdragon12121 wrote: Out of curiousity how is duration of divine might/shield handled with the changes. Is that capped by your clr/Pal/BG level similar to the dmg/AC or is the duration unaffected? Duration is the same as it was before. If you have a sorc with 1 pal level and 15 CHA mod, then his Might/Shield bonus is +1damage/AC, but the duration is 15 rounds. Again, duration is the same as it was before.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 0:23 AM |
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Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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pfft...I would have nerfed the duration as well. Thats still not too shabby seeing as duration is maintained.
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Kjetta
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Posted: Wed, May 05 2010, 10:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2006
Location: A Clean, Well-Lighted Place
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Sweetness. Looks like this spell opens up for a whole new range of character types.
_________________ To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!
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Daniel
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 15:28 PM |
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Joined: 15 Feb 2008
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Quote: Sweetness. Looks like this spell opens up for a whole new range of character types.
But while so, isn't it a little too overpowered in regards to your common rogue/wm Joe DevCritter type who doesn't cast spells anyway? To me it seems like unjustified +5 AB. Unless there's some sort of UMD alteration that I'm not aware of?
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 17:02 PM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Not really when now your Common Joe Blow Wizard can get 50+ AB. I'd even go so far as saying leaving the scrolls ingame is balanced.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 18:06 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I still advocate either nerfing the scrolls or making Tenser's unscribable or such. At least your wizard has to take levels an devote himself to being squishy whenever he's not using it and then not being about to cast spells or even counterspell while under it's effects for the whole duration(If your CL is 30, no way you can get your spells back for 30 rounds except to rest).
Leaving it open to UMDers makes it easier for them to get something for nothing. A big something at that, once you take into account its giving them 2empowered statbuffs, fort increase and AB. Really, it's just sickening when it's used by non-mage.
Just make it give the Str and Dex buff when cast from a scroll. Quickly transforms the user(likely a pure meleer) into a stronger, faster shape for a short duration. Something they pull out of their pocket when they get ambushed and they don't have a mage friend around.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 19:01 PM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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A wizard gets Tensers for nothing and it Turns the average 10str - 14str Wizard with Weapon Focus feats into a Tank with better AB than a Rogue and still having 39 DC spells. Hence the reason I'm an advocate for leaving it given all the tricks the Wizard has, you don't need to also make them the outright second best tanks in the game. Remember EMA means a wizards Average AC is over 60.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 19:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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They don't have the spells while Tenser's is running, Mosh. Unlike a cleric.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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LordAzack
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 19:07 PM |
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Joined: 11 Nov 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: They don't have the spells while Tenser's is running, Mosh. Unlike a cleric. Indeed, the spell turns them into a fighter... A fighter with zero ability to cast spells
_________________
Evil never looked so hot.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 19:09 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Mind, don't misquote me: Before they cast, they still have all the buffs and spells, which a fighter doesn't. I already suggested a fix to Mosh in another forum he has yet to reply to me on.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Fri, May 07 2010, 19:37 PM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Its the abhorently large AB gain not the APR thats the primary issue for me. I suggested a fix, thats all I can do, I didn't feel like repeating myself in that other thread.
I'm running a stock version through, we'll see how that goes before I say anything further.
However the tensers scroll issue isn't an issue, leave it, people favor truestrike in PvP, and in PvM the cost is prohibitive 4k for 5 AB? not worth it IMHO for only 11 rounds.
The point i was making about tensers btw, is that you are both a super effective tank, and an epic caster. You may not be able to do both at the same time, but it doesn't take away from the fact that you now have all bases covered.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Uncle-Opustus
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Posted: Mon, May 10 2010, 16:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Location: Finland
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Wait so, let me get this straight: As a Wizard I cast buffs on myself. Then I cast Tenser's. I no longer have the buffs I cast before?
_________________ UCE THIS, YOU COW.
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, May 10 2010, 16:26 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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I think that is one of the supposed "options" being considered behinds the scenes now, or at least that's the way it seems. As of now, you keep all your buffs from before. Which is right and perfectly logical.
Might be buying into our own hype right now, if we're actually thinking to make it dispell-on-cast. Most mages love their spells too much to go tank for any amount of time anyway. Without proper str, weapon feats, etc, it's not overly appealing to all but a few set-ups. Besides, we'd be gimping it even worse off than it was before.
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oshizo2
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Posted: Mon, May 10 2010, 16:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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Naw man you keep your buffs. You just can't cast anymore for spell duration.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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Blackdragon12121
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Posted: Mon, May 10 2010, 17:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
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MoshingChris wrote: However the tensers scroll issue isn't an issue, leave it, people favor truestrike in PvP, and in PvM the cost is prohibitive 4k for 5 AB? not worth it IMHO for only 11 rounds. Really not worth it...not when you can buy 1d8 extra damage for less than 300 gold that lasts all day.
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oshizo2
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Posted: Thu, May 27 2010, 1:51 AM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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Okay I have been running the spell in abyss and such it is usefull. It doesn't seem particularly over powered though in actual use.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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