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[ 23 posts ] |
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BlackDahlya
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 Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 6:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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For some time now I have been asking myself this question and I am not sure if it was already made on the forums.
On character creation, all stats of humans are 8.
In terms of game/roleplaying, what would a stat of 8 on a human mean? That he is lower than average or exactly average on that ability?
EDIT: I am asking that because I heard both that it is the exact average and that it is lower than average, from both PnP and Amia DMs.
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BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 6:09 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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8 is below average. 9-11 is average. Why does it matter? Seems an odd question to ask.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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HellScourge
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 6:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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If you get a malus you are below average, if you get a bonus you are above average.
That is how I always interpreted it at least.
_________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...] 
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 6:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Just plain curiosity, since when I talked about it with my PnP DM, the discussion was quite long with me believing it was lower than average and she saying it was the exact average.
Of course, she is too stubborn and I let the matter drop, but this keeps bugging me.
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BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 6:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The short answer is that it's whatever the DM of your game says it is, really. If she says it's average than in her setting 8 is average. Can't win arguments with the DM i PnP, generally. Especially about flavor details like that.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 6:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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True.
It is just that sometimes I can be an arse concerning lore/rules and while I might do something that breaks lore/rules or gets close to do that, I end up chastising myself for that.
But I was, in the end, in doubt about what the real rules say and what was her own interpretation.
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BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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HellScourge
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 6:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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As always, the Dm has the final word and no two DM's are the same.
_________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...]
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 7:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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PHB advocates for 10-11 as average.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Galenson
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 7:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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Noone but the most pedantic people will have a go at you for acting "beyond your modifier." Most of the stats overlap each other to some degree or cause horrendous debate that its not important. You are you and your character will always be influenced by you to some degree. Its just a fact. No DM has shot me down to date for all my characters having 8-10 intelligence and being able to make smart or well thought decisions. Possibly because I can always counter their arguement by pointing at the wisdom or charisma score and imply that they make up for academic thinking, but that's not the point of this.
Only time it matters what your modifier is is when you're talking about builds or game mechanics.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 7:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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Galenson wrote: Noone but the most pedantic people will have a go at you for acting "beyond your modifier." Most of the stats overlap each other to some degree or cause horrendous debate that its not important. You are you and your character will always be influenced by you to some degree. Its just a fact. No DM has shot me down to date for all my characters having 8-10 intelligence and being able to make smart or well thought decisions. Possibly because I can always counter their arguement by pointing at the wisdom or charisma score and imply that they make up for academic thinking, but that's not the point of this.
Only time it matters what your modifier is is when you're talking about builds or game mechanics. You are lucky, then. It happened to me once on Amia, though more because the DM was surprised when he saw my character's sheet than because he wanted to have a go at me. In PnP, I had a DM (not the one mentioned here) who was really an arse about stats. He would not accept you RPing a wise character with very low wisdom, even if sometimes some people have those sudden moments when a pearl or two will shine with their words.
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 9:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Galenson wrote: Noone but the most pedantic people will have a go at you for acting "beyond your modifier." Most of the stats overlap each other to some degree or cause horrendous debate that its not important. You are you and your character will always be influenced by you to some degree. Its just a fact. No DM has shot me down to date for all my characters having 8-10 intelligence and being able to make smart or well thought decisions. Possibly because I can always counter their arguement by pointing at the wisdom or charisma score and imply that they make up for academic thinking, but that's not the point of this.
Only time it matters what your modifier is is when you're talking about builds or game mechanics. Completely untrue.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Vaylek
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 9:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Kinda hard to police and enforce those kinds of RP guidelines on a place like Amia, I suppose.
_________________
Vaylek - The Worst Guy
Pu Liu - Descendant of the Great River Dragon
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 9:26 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Less difficult than one would think. Many DMs simply choose not to, as far as day to day argument goes. But we note it. We kow you are a 7 int character speaking fluent Elven, Draconic, and Common. And when event time comes, it will be handled.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 9:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Thus the reason my Characters all have. . .hurmmm IDEA!
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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 10:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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TormakSaber wrote: Less difficult than one would think. Many DMs simply choose not to, as far as day to day argument goes. But we note it. We kow you are a 7 int character speaking fluent Elven, Draconic, and Common. And when event time comes, it will be handled. I remember my first rebuild for Valki was from wizard to Sorceress because she was more charismatic than smart. And not because I RPed her that way, but simply because I was unable to RP someone overly smart. The DM making the rebuild was the one surprised  And some players, too, when saying she was beautiful and OOC asking what was her CHA. XD
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 10:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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BlackDahlya wrote: And some players, too, when saying she was beautiful and OOC asking what was her CHA. XD Oooh, let's start that discussion again!
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ainjyll
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 13:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Only speaking in terms of strength, I'd think that 8 would probably be a better approximation of average than 10 would be. Maybe not in terms of the average adventurer, but in terms of the average Joe Blow from Littletown.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Yurell
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 14:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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ainjyll wrote: Only speaking in terms of strength, I'd think that 8 would probably be a better approximation of average than 10 would be. Maybe not in terms of the average adventurer, but in terms of the average Joe Blow from Littletown. I disagree - for starters that would make a human, in absolute terms, be only as strong as a badger. Secondly, the ability scores were basically designed with '10 = average human' in mind. Keeping in mind that this is a 'medieval'-esque setting, it's not so far-fetched that people may be stronger on average, having had to do manual labour throughout their lives. Going even as low as nine gives you - The strength of a quasit; The dexterity of an ogre; The constitution of a centipede swarm (this one's probably not so bad); The intelligence of a troglodyte; The wisdom of a troll; The charisma of a gnoll. They seem like arbitrary rankings, with 10 being defined as the reference point of the scale, giving the ability modifiers a 'zero point'.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Bravo21
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 16:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Nov 2008
Location: In the land of liquid sunshine and coffee
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If you are talking average the formula is simple. The lowest starting score for a human is 3, the highest is 18. ((3+18)/2= 10.5). Thus the average for humans is 10 or 11. Also since when rolling for stats in a PnP game, 3 6-sided dice are used, the average is further modified by becomming a bell curve of results, where more than 40% of the results fall in to the 9-11 range and coresponding decreasing percentages for lower and higer results.
However, with the points buy system the average is 13 for all abilities. So, what is average? If you wish to truely see the average the population in question has to be taken into account. For Amia, with the rather high precidence of high strength PC's running around the average becomes skewed from human norms. In the end, like Tormak said, normal and average is what the DM's say it is.
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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.
-Krrja
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Dark Immolation
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 19:28 PM |
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Developer
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"
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Everyone knows averages are relative. "Normal" people likely don't start off with as many ability points as adventurers, IMO. So 8-10 would be the average for them. Adventurers on the other hand have more, for whatever XYZ larger-than-life reasons. Perhaps 12-13 is the average for any given adventurer stat because of the ability points they start with.
In the end it doesn't really matter what "average" is anyway. When it comes to that moment you have to roll your low ability, DM decides if it's enough to make do at that moment, likely weighing other things into that about your character. Like great wisom making up for intelligence or vice versa. I've never really seen charisma being a substitute for either of those, though. It's a mental stat that's kinda hard to put in terms of anything other than "force of will."
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 20:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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NWN's a game. It was just easier to translate it from a Pnp thing to a game this way I believe. Check out 2.0 for the "0 is average" system.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 21:41 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Dark Immolation wrote: Everyone knows averages are relative. "Normal" people likely don't start off with as many ability points as adventurers, IMO. So 8-10 would be the average for them. Adventurers on the other hand have more, for whatever XYZ larger-than-life reasons. Perhaps 12-13 is the average for any given adventurer stat because of the ability points they start with.
In the end it doesn't really matter what "average" is anyway. When it comes to that moment you have to roll your low ability, DM decides if it's enough to make do at that moment, likely weighing other things into that about your character. Like great wisom making up for intelligence or vice versa. I've never really seen charisma being a substitute for either of those, though. It's a mental stat that's kinda hard to put in terms of anything other than "force of will." Your standard Human Commoner will have stats randomized through the Standard Array, which is; 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 Your Non Adventuring, but more important NPCs or creatures will have stats randomized through the Elite Array, which is. 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15 The PHB Describes 10 as your standard commoners average amount of skill - even if individual skills vary widely. 10 Strength allows you to carry 85ish LB, 10 Dexterity allows you some basic amount of reflexes, 10 Constitution means you're neither susceptible nor strong against physical labours, 10 Intelligence means you've standard, reasoning ability and know one language, 10 Wisdom means you've basic perception and foresight skills, and 10 Charisma means you're capable of holding a basic conversation.
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Mostly Retired
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wuhwuhwolves
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Location: AMERICA, EFF YEAH
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I'd think that charisma has little to do with "being able to hold a basic conversation" as your intelligence and wisdom will have more to do with what a character is able to say and how much sense it makes.
Charisma seems to have more to do with how convincing what you say is, and who's willing to actually listen against their better judgment.
If you say something someone already agrees with, they're going to agree with you, regardless of your charisma score. Your charisma is used to see what you're capable of when "challenged".
A person with 8 dexterity isn't going to have to make checks to walk around because he isn't coordinated enough to do something as basic as walking.
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