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Xaviera
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 Posted: Thu, Apr 29 2010, 23:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
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BrainSplitter wrote: A level 30, for example, could take 5 level 3's through Brogendenstein repeatedly. Simply Invis the lowbies and have fun with your Dev Crit.
And if it isn't viable - it won't be used, thus putting us back at our current square which is "You can party with people outside your range; but it isn't as profitable as you want". I'm just yanking numbers out of my behind, but using the same calculations as I did in the examples above (CR = level * 1.5), the 5th-level lowbies in the 20th level area (CR ~30) would still only be pulling in ~10 xp/kill (and only half that in a 10th-level area). The kill rate would have to be at least triple what they'd do themselves in a CR 7-10 area to break even (mind you, they'd make more money and get higher-valued loot in Brog than against orcs or trolls). If you put more beasties that can see invisible and/or that use AoE's, it would up the risk for those lowbies. As would a more severe death system such as I've suggested previously (but that nobody will go for...). The system I'm proposing would allow lowbies to party with epics, which you can't do now (or, at least, not and get xp for it). The epics would suffer a bit and the lowbies likely wouldn't do any better than they could in a level-appropriate area, but you'd still be able to do it and not get nothing at all. Certainly it would take some balancing to pull off. _________________  ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
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ainjyll
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Posted: Fri, Apr 30 2010, 0:43 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Nex_addo wrote: Then on a realistic sense you don't learn anything abuot fighting from watching. As a trainer I can speak from experience. The best you can get is "Oh thats how you do it....You got away and practice it'
Also feel free to tag along with you epic buddies on their hunts noones stopping you from doing that just dont expect to suddenly grow more powers cause you saw your friend do it. Sorry, wrong there. After coaching high school wrestling and assisting in teaching Gracie jujitsu classes, I can safely say that you're dead wrong. You can't possibly throw a sword in someone's hands and expect them to discover the fine points of fencing. A master, shows the techniques to you and then you fence against someone else while the master watches and corrects your technique. If you only fence against the master, you'll learn, but at a lesser rate and if you only go out and practice techniques without the master present, you'll learn, but at a lesser rate. If you practice what the master teaches while s/he watches and corrects you maximize the learning potential. This is the heart of the matter and is something that I think Amia could benefit from having implemented. I have come up with an idea, I'm just not so sure about how it could be applied or if it could without a significant amount of scripting. What if there was an option added to a menu or a currently existing widget that allowed two characters to enter into a temporary mentor/apprentice bond? It can only be used once per reset and can only be good to a minor amount of XP, 2500 we'll say. Only one apprentice per mentor and keep the 6 people max amount. It could even be attached to the DC wand and notify the DM's about it and woe be to the mentor/apprentice pairing that happened to do this while a bored DM was on and got caught trying to grind through that amount of XP and not RP'ing at all. _________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Nex_addo
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Posted: Fri, Apr 30 2010, 8:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 May 2007
Location: New Zealand
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Quote: Sorry, wrong there. After coaching high school wrestling and assisting in teaching Gracie jujitsu classes, I can safely say that you're dead wrong. You can't possibly throw a sword in someone's hands and expect them to discover the fine points of fencing. A master, shows the techniques
to you and then you fence against someone else while the master watches and corrects your technique. If you only fence against the master, you'll learn, but at a lesser rate and if you only go out and practice techniques without the master present, you'll learn, but at a lesser rate. If you practice what the master teaches while s/he watches and corrects you maximize the learning potential. Clearly you've missed the point. If someone came to one of your lessons and simply watched even for two years just watched he would still not know how to wrestle. If he watched, then put it in a practical sense then he would learn! Unless wrestling is far more different then say 15th century italian longsword.
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Neso
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Posted: Fri, Apr 30 2010, 10:47 AM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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I think that the players are given too little credit in these abuse assumptions. For one, most of us are only on for a few hours, and why on earth would we spend that babysitting lowbies without any roleplay? Killing kobolds quickly? Yes, it's doable. Boring as hell? Yes, certainly. Besides, nobody would really want that brand on them. Twinking is different, because there is little chance of getting caught. However, when you're running the spires with a few lowbies in the name of powerleveling, it is very obvious. I do not think people would subject themselves to that risk without having anything to gain personally from it, other than a huge loss of time.
Second, we could most likely tweak the system in a clever fashion that makes going with people that are higher level than yourself just as or less profitable xpwise than going with those of your own level. Where would be the abuse then? If there is no real "edge" to gain from it, there is no abuse. As for what that clever fashion would be, I do not know. But that is why we're posting in this thread.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Apr 30 2010, 14:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, since you brought the twinking bit into this, I'll be the first to admit I've also argued against those rules for years. These notions of fair and unfair are simply absurd and out-of-place in a context such as this, IMO. The times I've brought it up, the "who cares" camp has sadly lost the votes, though. But anyway, just pointing out why I won't counter any twinking comparisons; if it is the same, all the better. As for Ron's example, it's artificial because of the small number of PCs considered. Amia has no shortage of players. It happens already, anyway, because many players quickly drop out of range of their previous hunting buddies who get caught up in the grindwagon of higher level buddies. It's not as if you're out of options on Amia even if that happens: it's easy to find a party in any timezone, unless you expect to find one every single time and immediately. This suggestion has nothing to do with the difficulty of levelling or finding parties, which some of you continue to bring up. You obviously don't know me and my playing habits if you think that's my motive or goal.
Ainjyll's idea is nice. It addresses the most signifigant problem, though not the whole field of issues. Ron says it won't be used if it isn't viable, but it should be enough for it to be viable, just not rewarding. Ideally, you could go hunt with your IC crew for RP reasons, and you wouldn't just lose gold and potions at absolutely no gain. You'd get a token amount of XP, ~10 per kill (which could even be 5, if the difference is over 15 HD) and some gold. It's not supposed to be your number one choice, or make any party bring along a lowbie for profit. It's supposed to facilitate those faction and other groups who'd hunt together anyway, and just make it somewhat sensible to do it.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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soundofastream
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Posted: Sat, May 01 2010, 1:35 AM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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The OOCness of Amia was definitely getting to me. God knows, I love the dev work that's gone into the server. Its truly beautiful. I also love that RP quality has increased with fantastic rp going on regularly. But...when its all about "the hunt", or "xp" or //you shouldn't be here its a lowbie area!! or /p yada, yada, yada lets completely talk ooc in party chat all day and not RP IC, it all just got too much. Something needs to swing the balance back the other way. I'm not sure if that's removing portals or party ball or whatever, but something needs to make it more immersive, where IC becomes more predominant than OOC without being nazi's about it of course. The various 'mechanics' all add up to a culture of Action before RP, rather than Action + RP. The Balance just needs a re-alignment imho. 
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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HellScourge
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Posted: Sat, May 01 2010, 6:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jan 2007
Location: GMT+1
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soundofastream wrote: //you shouldn't be here its a lowbie area!! I'd simply say that I reserve my right to go wherever I want _________________ "Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong." "I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder." TeroSNS wrote: Hello Everyone [...] I like tentacles [...] 
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Didi
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Posted: Sat, May 01 2010, 11:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Location: UK - GMT
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Just passing through, hope you all are well.
Just was reading the post on getting rid of party level range caps. It seems to me that a very simple solution would be this:
Base the xp gained on the party calculation based on only those members who are within 5 levels of the highest. Lower levels count towards the 6 player cap, but not the xp calculation.
This way, in order to gain xp, they must travel somewhere which is risky even for their mentor. No free xp there.
Conversely, base loot on the party level from the lowest party member, so that parties with low levels in them in high level areas dont get much. Now the "twinking" problem is also solved. May need a slight change to loot calculations, but shouldnt be too hard.
This seems to counter all possible qualms, offer no great benefits, maintain the risk reward balance and be easy to code.
_________________ 
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Xaviera
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Posted: Sat, May 01 2010, 12:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
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I like this one. Again, it will encourage PC levels to bunch around a higher value, and lowbies can come along but simply wont benefit. I also like the idea of basing gold & loot off the lowest level as it may slightly reduce the influx into the system and also means no mega-loot for parties with a low level (except I think the loot bin is determined by the area, so that might need rejigging to be based on average ECL).
A small modification to allow some xp for lowbies would be to do the calculation as normal (based on ECL within 5 levels of the max), but those below that cut-off get a minimum of 1 xp. If the xp awarded to the party for a given kill is higher than 1 xp, the lowbie gets 1 xp/level up to the amount actually awarded to the highbies for that kill. So the lowbies do benefit, but only in proportion to their own experience.
eg. 5 level 30s and a level 5 in the Abyss. XP/kill is calculated based on the epics only. Say they each get 25 xp/kill - the lowbie would still get 5 xp/kill.
_________________ ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
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jenmeme
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Posted: Sat, May 01 2010, 18:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Rockingham, NC
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I think it would be neat if the PCs doing the instructing could actually grant the "student" XP from their own character. This would give a good way to actually "pass on" the knowledge, and keep people from overly abusing the system because it comes at a cost to the one teaching.
Just a thought.
_________________ Bayara Tshakia - Acolyte of BaneGerinana Diams - Lockpick and sneak for hireFrin Hill - Buried in the Woods-See all of my characters on the Amia Wikki-
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Neso
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Posted: Sat, May 01 2010, 19:05 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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I think that is a great idea, even it is somewhat difficult to explain why someone would lose knowledge for "passing it on".
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Weylyn_SotW
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Posted: Sat, May 01 2010, 23:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Mar 2010
Location: The Netherlands
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Neso wrote: I think that is a great idea, even it is somewhat difficult to explain why someone would lose knowledge for "passing it on". Isn't it obvious? The student's asking questions that are so horribly stupid that your brain is actually trying to kill itself.
_________________
Shynt'iira, Ilharess d'lil Qu'ellar My'ana
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Funiculus
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 0:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 04 May 2005
Location: Right here!
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Weylyn_SotW wrote: Neso wrote: I think that is a great idea, even it is somewhat difficult to explain why someone would lose knowledge for "passing it on". Isn't it obvious? The student's asking questions that are so horribly stupid that your brain is actually trying to kill itself. Just like real teaching! I like it.
_________________
Working on tastey new adventures!
Playing: Theos Gend, Perry Sawmir, Mers Larin
Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the two giant wolves.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 3:02 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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jenmeme wrote: I think it would be neat if the PCs doing the instructing could actually grant the "student" XP from their own character. This would give a good way to actually "pass on" the knowledge, and keep people from overly abusing the system because it comes at a cost to the one teaching.
Just a thought. *gives 30k XP, easily grinds back to 30 while bossfarming* No. WAY too abusable.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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jenmeme
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 4:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Rockingham, NC
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Well it could be adjusted so that it was less abusable ....at any rate I was just throwing something out there. Never expected anyone to take that seriously lol.
_________________ Bayara Tshakia - Acolyte of BaneGerinana Diams - Lockpick and sneak for hireFrin Hill - Buried in the Woods-See all of my characters on the Amia Wikki-
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The Peacock
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 8:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Location: Patrollink ze borderz! Wo ist das Hahn!?
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Dead wrote: OOC metagaming of my religion and character even before we meet in one location is diheartening.
So yeah, my opinion is a bit late, but whatever. I, myself, often ask a player if they are Dhaerow or of any race that my PC would not associate themselves with. Of course there are many ways one can invoke a party. One is invite, port, grind. Advocation for a good, hard pixel-bashing. The other is invite, tell/party chat to meet up then promptly proceed to grind/RP hunt. Finally, meet up, invite, grind. Unfortunately, often times it is the very former. So my process, being prepared for the inevitable grind, I ask beforehand and assume there has been a brief meeting once before between the characters - either by acquaintance or through association. Of course I RP greetings once I'm there, but asking their race allows me to save myself the trouble of potential pvp when all they want to do is grind, and I also bypass griefing a poor little drow. It's win for everybody... Except my exp points. So in that sense, that's a very pro-active form of harmless meta-gaming. But it's for the overall welfare of RP and good family fun. _________________  'Ze Cock! Ze Cock ist shtill aut der!! Kapitulation feiern - NEIN DANKE!'
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Neso
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Posted: Sun, May 02 2010, 19:33 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: *gives 30k XP, easily grinds back to 30 while bossfarming*
No. WAY too abusable. Again, you take initial brainstorming and bash it, mistaking it for something definite. You provide very little constructive criticism, which is after all the best form of criticism. What if it worked on percentages of level? For an instance, you give 30k exp to a student. Let's say that 30k exp is 80% of your level. The lowbie student gets 800 exp, because that is 80% of his level 3. Not that abusable, eh...?
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ainjyll
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 1:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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I could see something like that wreaking havoc on the system, though. It would have to be coded in that you can't lose a level due to "giving" XP to another. Otherwise, it could be a HUGE abuse. I'm still kinda on the fence about the whole idea because, while Tormak doesn't elaborate on the concept, he is right and the proposed idea is open to a hundred different forms of abuse.
_________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Nex_addo
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 7:57 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 May 2007
Location: New Zealand
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Quote: while Tormak doesn't elaborate on the concept I guess hes just hoping common sense will fill in the rest
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 9:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Yes, I figure it some degree of common sense that giving XP is easily abusable. 30 K XP will bring a character from level 3 to level 9 immediately, and very close to level 10. It slowly levels off after that but it's never going to be less than a full level for the character, and with a faction full of multiple level 30's that don't mind going to base to powerlevel up a friend, it quicly becomes silly. And if you hammer it out into the % idea that Neso has, then no one will use it because it;s not efficient. OVer the years, you can draw trends on that sort of thing. For Amians, by and large, to bother with it, it needs to be better than any present alternative, to the point of abusability, or they will mostly ignore it and keep going with the current trend. See: How long it took to finally get people to stop doing freaking Yan-Ti from level 13-30. And hell, I think people STILL do it.
I hate to be a downer but when you can draw these lines (that as a player, you cannot), it becomes much easier to shoot down ideas based on viability and abusability, and whether or not the dev work is actually worth it or not. Nothing today stops you from RPing a master/mentor relationship other than your own drive to be able to have your high level effortlessly kill things so the low level can leech off of you.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Vaylek
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 15:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
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Hmm.. What if... the master/student relationship could manifest in game mechanics without giving XP... what if it was as simple as a minor buff that they could bestow, on account of giving some wise or useful advice.
Now before you freak out, make some conditions for it.
1. Mentor/student can only be gained by request and with accompanying RP to DM's satisfaction. Master can only bestow said buff on his/her own student, not anybody they want. Maybe the buff happens with widgets.
2. If the student ever reaches the master's level or higher, they can no longer enjoy the benefit of the buff.
The buff might be something like... +1 AB, + 20 temp. hp, +1 saving throws, for a decent amount of time. Same duration as GMW or something, so they can get a bit of extra help/morale if they are hunting in a higher level zone with their master, or have a bit of a boost to take to another party.
So kinda like a mini bard song with better duration, that strictly needs to be RP'd.
_________________
Vaylek - The Worst Guy
Pu Liu - Descendant of the Great River Dragon
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 15:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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They can just cast buffs on them themselves. Why bother with a DM only approval widget? A lot of work for them, a lot of work for us. Wh is a master/mentor relationship so dependant ton quickly speeding up the levelling of the lowbie?
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 16:16 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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TormakSaber wrote: They can just cast buffs on them themselves. Why bother with a DM only approval widget? A lot of work for them, a lot of work for us. Wh is a master/mentor relationship so dependant ton quickly speeding up the levelling of the lowbie? Agreed. And honestly I still fail to see even a remote need for any faster/easier lvling when lvling is already relatively easier and faster than most other servers as it stands now.
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Neso
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 16:38 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: Wh is a master/mentor relationship so dependant ton quickly speeding up the levelling of the lowbie? Most of the suggestions here have not been about that. On the contrary, what many have suggested has been to offer a slower alternative to grinding with parties your own level, simply for the roleplay aspect of it.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 18:43 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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You already have that.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Neso
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 19:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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Alot of people clearly feel that there is room for improvement and adding even more dimensions to it.
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 20:25 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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Its not really alot of people.
Its the same people in nearly every topic, who are overly active on the forums.
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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ShortSlasher
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 20:40 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 May 2007
Location: Western Mass
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Most the server doesn't use the forums.
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 21:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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MoshingChris wrote: Its not really alot of people.
Its the same people in nearly every topic, who are overly active on the forums. My thoughts exactly. IT's simply the Vocal Minority.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Neso
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Posted: Mon, May 03 2010, 23:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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Sadly, the ones who beat down suggestions of improvements are the even louder minority. Now it just feels like Tormak is simply saying no for the sake of saying no. I mean, first it's too abusable and then it's not abusable enough. Wait, what? If my level 30 character had a bond with his student or whatnot, I would gladly push him down to level 29 to give them level 7. You can't possibly claim to know what the players would do if such a system were in place. In this thread alone, there is a number of people who strike me as willing to do what I described above.
And fair enough, we might just be the vocal minority, but as BrainSplitter pointed out, such matters will not be put the vote because hey, even if a majority wants it, what does the server population know? I mean, we're just the ones who play here, right? We're the ones looking to get as much epic loot, coin and experience as quickly as possible, and it's not at all in our interest to push for mechanics that can further our roleplaying experience.
With that said, I want to apologize to everyone in this thread and others that might've percieved my posts as hostile, especially Tormak and BrainSplitter. I have an argumentative personality (Even though I more often than not lack in the arguments department) and I am not always very diplomatic about it. It's nothing personal, I am sure you are both great guys.
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Grymia
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 0:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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Thing about a Mentor/Student system:
In advance, if you anticipate good RP's gonna happen, start into it some, then one of you use your DC wand.
Those DCs can be used for XP , and depending on how many DCs the Mentor has, as a reward for services or lessons rendered, they may use their DCs, and another share of RP to give said Student a suitable reward.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 3:21 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: I would gladly push him down to level 29 to give them level 7 And that is abuse of the XP system. A player should never have control of their own delevelling. Ever.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 3:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Great way to get 255 str on your RDD too.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ainjyll
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 4:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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BrainSplitter wrote: MoshingChris wrote: Its not really alot of people.
Its the same people in nearly every topic, who are overly active on the forums. My thoughts exactly. IT's simply the Vocal Minority. Moot point. It's like that with every discussion on these forums. The only difference in who is the "Vocal Minority" I would take to be completely dependent on which side you [used in the third person] happen to stand on. _________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 4:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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If it was such a major issue, I doubt so few people would be posting. Sure, everyone would enjoy an easy trick to get levels, but not enough seem to consider it a 'major, gamebreaking issue', despite the 5-page thread.
_________________
Mostly Retired
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Neso
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 12:42 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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BrainSplitter wrote: If it was such a major issue, I doubt so few people would be posting. Sure, everyone would enjoy an easy trick to get levels, but not enough seem to consider it a 'major, gamebreaking issue', despite the 5-page thread. Nobody considers it a gamebreaking issue. Where does it state that only 'gamebreaking issues' need to be worked on? Again, the suggestions that have been posted here have not been about 'fixing' gameplay. They have been about improving it. Making it better, adding even more fun, you know. TormakSaber wrote: And that is abuse of the XP system. A player should never have control of their own delevelling. Ever. Is there a reason for that, other than the possibility of certain exploits? (Not that I know of any. First time I hear of the RDD thing.)
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 13:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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A player sohuld not be able to control their own levelling and delevelling because of some reasons...
1: We allow alignment changes for a character. A lot of these happen at level 30, but some do happen during the level up process. In either case we need to vet the build to make sure they're not going to class into illegal class combinations. A player allowed to control their own delevelling could abuse this. IT would likely be seen by a DM, of cours,e but how quickly, and how much damage would already have been done? Best to just keep XP docking in the hands of a DM.
2: Things like RDD and Palemaster. On top of the RDD stats, wings and bone arms, once placed on, will not be removed in the character delevels. A character could go to RDD 9 ,delevel themselves and level up differently and keep free wings, or the bone arm.
3: Rebuilds in general. We approve them because we like to see RP behind it and we like to keep track of what people are rebuilding too and from. To give that power to the players bypasses the DM element entirely, in an element that should be tightly regulated and watched over.
All of these can be fixed by a DM, but why open the doors? Rather keep them shut and let DMs handle other things, than open the door and force DMS to have another abuse to keep an eye out for and need to argue with inevitably angry players over, because 'the system lets me do it, you shouldn't have put it in, then."
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 14:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Didi wrote: Just passing through, hope you all are well.
Just was reading the post on getting rid of party level range caps. It seems to me that a very simple solution would be this:
Base the xp gained on the party calculation based on only those members who are within 5 levels of the highest. Lower levels count towards the 6 player cap, but not the xp calculation.
This way, in order to gain xp, they must travel somewhere which is risky even for their mentor. No free xp there.
Conversely, base loot on the party level from the lowest party member, so that parties with low levels in them in high level areas dont get much. Now the "twinking" problem is also solved. May need a slight change to loot calculations, but shouldnt be too hard.
This seems to counter all possible qualms, offer no great benefits, maintain the risk reward balance and be easy to code. So far, this is the simplest solution. It should be easy to implement, as well. The technical difficulty is loot, because it's based on what you kill, not what your level is. As it stands, there is no check whether you're level 1 or level 30 when you kill an Abyss-critter: those critters drop from their assigned bin (+4, I believe) regardless. If you really wanted to, you could still just block loot altogether. No way to abuse this whatsoever, at least not in any way that couldn't already be done with the current system. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Neso
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 14:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: A player sohuld not be able to control their own levelling and delevelling because of some reasons...
1: We allow alignment changes for a character. A lot of these happen at level 30, but some do happen during the level up process. In either case we need to vet the build to make sure they're not going to class into illegal class combinations. A player allowed to control their own delevelling could abuse this. IT would likely be seen by a DM, of cours,e but how quickly, and how much damage would already have been done? Best to just keep XP docking in the hands of a DM.
2: Things like RDD and Palemaster. On top of the RDD stats, wings and bone arms, once placed on, will not be removed in the character delevels. A character could go to RDD 9 ,delevel themselves and level up differently and keep free wings, or the bone arm.
3: Rebuilds in general. We approve them because we like to see RP behind it and we like to keep track of what people are rebuilding too and from. To give that power to the players bypasses the DM element entirely, in an element that should be tightly regulated and watched over.
All of these can be fixed by a DM, but why open the doors? Rather keep them shut and let DMs handle other things, than open the door and force DMS to have another abuse to keep an eye out for and need to argue with inevitably angry players over, because 'the system lets me do it, you shouldn't have put it in, then." Alright, fair enough. Thanks for the explaining the problems. I also liked Didi's suggestion, but I suppose that the ones that argue no will still say "No way, lowbies can just pop invs potions and stay behind.", even though they would occupy a party slot and make it completely useless.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 14:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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They'd occupy a party slot, increasing XP all around, and if 5 level 30's can't trounce the area they're in, then they're doing it wrong. And all the lowbie has to do is sit waaaay behind because the XP radius on Amia is very very big. And if you narrow it, you're back to the buff the lowbie sit in invis thing, or hand them a GS scroll or what have you.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Neso
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:03 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Mar 2007
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TormakSaber wrote: They'd occupy a party slot, increasing XP all around, and if 5 level 30's can't trounce the area they're in, then they're doing it wrong. And all the lowbie has to do is sit waaaay behind because the XP radius on Amia is very very big. And if you narrow it, you're back to the buff the lowbie sit in invis thing, or hand them a GS scroll or what have you. She specifically said that the lowbie would not count towards the exp calculation, only the people in range would, so there would be no increase in XP. Also, what you're describing is possible now aswell. 5 level 30's can grind the abyss while a level 25 sits waaay back. Does it happen? No, not really.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:09 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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No, because the buffed level 25 is capable of fighting in the abyss and by level 25 most of the need to powergame is gone. Getting them to epic is the important part.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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That's exactly what I meant by "not in any way that couldn't already be done with the current system." You can sit back at any level, and it shouldn't be any more profitable a high levels so there should be no reason to opt for higher risk at the same gain unless for RP. Sitting back at the corner of a map is an abuse not related to the level cap at all, but the way Amia handles parties, so it's pretty moot against Didi's suggestion. If you're still getting roughly the same XP, what does it matter whether you're sitting in an epic party or in one of your own level?
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Reward for no effort.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:17 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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As I said, completely unrelated to the suggestion at the table. You get reward for no effort in a party of any level if you sit back, and you get reward for legit effort in a party of any level if you participate. Nothing to do with level caps.
Besides, you seem to assume the lowbie will just tag along to watch. What would be the point? Of course he'll try his best to contribute and learn. Those who just want to hang back and leech can do it now, and there's no reason to assume it would dramatically increase with the new system. It happens already, and I'm fairly sure it's illegal too.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:27 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Of course the lowbie is going to tag along and watch. Like his party is actually going to res him every 30 seconds when he catches aggro in actand or beholders? No, he's going to sit 3 spawns back, get XP and inch forward every now and then.
And if an in-level range party member starts leeching, they get their ass kicked out of party, more than typically.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:36 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Yes, but why would the lowbie go with epics to a place he can't contribute in, or why would the epics take him in the first place? Of course it would be better for everyone if they sticked to parties and areas roughly their level. It's not very rational to treat a level 25 party leech any different than a level 3 party leech, either way.
You think in extremes. The intention is not to have lowbies party with epics, but epics challenging teens in difficult areas or whatever. You should prepare for the worst, but it's not a disaster if it becomes possible to sit three spawns back in an area 20 CR out of your range: if it's not any more profitable than actually participating in an area closer to your CR, there's no incentive to doing much of it and even if it's done, it's no more game-breaking than going the normal levelling route.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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ainjyll
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 15:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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IronAngel wrote: The intention is not to have lowbies party with epics, but epics challenging teens in difficult areas or whatever. You should prepare for the worst, but it's not a disaster if it becomes possible to sit three spawns back in an area 20 CR out of your range: if it's not any more profitable than actually participating in an area closer to your CR, there's no incentive to doing much of it and even if it's done, it's no more game-breaking than going the normal levelling route. I'd go even further and say that it should be made less profitable to to ride the coattails of your friends. Make it so that yes, you can get that level by hiding in invis while your friends take out whatever, but you'll get that next level way quicker if you stick to something near your CL. Base the XP off the highest ECL in the party and you can keep a level 30 from running through FoD or wherever helping his lower leveled friends, as well. _________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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IronAngel
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 16:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Yeah, that'd be ideal. It requires more mechanical work than Didi's simple solution, because the XP formula has to be tweaked other than simply to ignore lowbies. But it'd be better if that work was done.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Xaviera
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Posted: Tue, May 04 2010, 20:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Location: Temple of Love
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Which is why I suggested a cap of 1 xp/level for lowbies up to the amount actually awarded to those within 5 levels of the highest (as per Didi's idea). The original point of the thread was to find a way to bring lowbies along without screwing the epics out of xp. At the same time, we don't want to be able to powerlevel the newbs. They should be learning something, but not as much as they would in a level-appropriate area.
As Iron pointed out, the issue of hiding in a corner and leeching is unrelated to the levels in the party. If a lowbie is going to leech at all, he should get better xp from a level-appropriate party than from a bunch of epics in the Abyss. In either case, he should be booted by the party &/or the DMs for doing so.
I realize that the loot drops cant be (easily) recalculated based on levels, but perhaps the gold can? Make it based on the lowest level in the party.
_________________ ~Sharess on AmiaWiki~Priestess, politician, prostitute "[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer BoltAmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)
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