AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Not in NWN. And giving gold weight isn't that feasible. Especially without a bank.

TormakSaber wrote:

Not in NWN. And giving gold weight isn't that feasible. Especially without a bank.

Exactly. To give gold weight would require a banking system and that's just adding a little extra migraine pain to the headache of the problem.

Couldn't you just give a gold sack item that receives the weight increase itemproperty onacquire, based on the amount of gold the holder possesses?

EDIT: Oh, nvm, I see what you're saying.

The problem is that gaining gold on Amia is not exactly a challenge, not even at the lower rungs of the economic ladder. It might actually be fun to make it a challenge, but there always seems to be a vocal element which protests against the impoverishment of lower-level characters.

Well, those lower-level characters earn piles of gold compared to their present level and abilities. True, they can also die horribly, but each piece of good loot can buy them two or three low-level pieces of equipment, if they shop around, and plenty of consumables.

It's when you get to the higher levels that you start to realise there is a curve, such that even at the peak of your abilities, one good piece of loot won't buy you a hell of a lot of high-level consumables or gear.

I don't know if that helps any but that's my impression, anyway.

MoshingChris wrote:

True but it would encourage partying more because you just get a DPS-er and laugh along the merry way.

That by the way is the reason I say spell levels 1 - 3 don't incur a reagant bag/component pouch. Most of the buffs for party members are in the 1 - 3 range.

Its all theoretical anyway, until Jehran pokes his head in I have no idea if its possible.

This could be done, in many different ways. Not sure the best way, but I might want to increase the range of the free spells to level 4, as that includes GMW for clerics and makes paladins/rangers/assassin/blackguard immune to this change.

50 charges is the max for any item and that is probably enough to exhaust a wizards book exactly
once...I doubt a sorc could even cast all their spells.

So they'd need to be separate counts for each spell level to have any chance at being at least pretend practical for the caster.

Please keep in mind some of us proactive wizards will use our entire spellbook -every- rest. And some of them have quite extensive amount of castings, like 11-12 9th level spells. I'm okay with things costing more, don't get me wrong, but I don't think a level 9 spell should ever cost more than 500 gold. Nuking in PvM would become a thing of the past, Wizards have the same gearing concerns as any other class, and as I said before that they also have the concern of spell scroll availability and cost; All things which should be kept in mind while balancing.

Its a non-trivial amount of gold and task while leveling up just to get them. To get them while paying for casting all of the ones you know and use already would be a very large issue. And what happens if they get low on gold? ...Are they screwed to never get any?

Between this and suggested PvP changes for spells, it leaves me a bit concerned for viability of wizards coming up and why anyone would want to play a wizard anymore, after everything has gone through.

Dwagin wrote:

Please keep in mind some of us proactive wizards will use our entire spellbook -every- rest. And some of them have quite extensive amount of castings, like 11-12 9th level spells. I'm okay with things costing more, don't get me wrong, but I don't think a level 9 spell should ever cost more than 500 gold. Nuking in PvM would become a thing of the past, Wizards have the same gearing concerns as any other class, and as I said before that they also have the concern of spell scroll availability and cost; All things which should be kept in mind while balancing.

Its a non-trivial amount of gold and task while leveling up just to get them. To get them while paying for casting all of the ones you know and use already would be a very large issue. And what happens if they get low on gold? ...Are they screwed to never get any?

Between this and suggested PvP changes for spells, it leaves me a bit concerned for viability of wizards coming up and why anyone would want to play a wizard anymore, after everything has gone through.

I am not saying I support these changes, (I have no idea about the viability of the costs/use rate or anything) just supplying what could mechnically work from my experience.

Honestly I think this should be the last thing the "Make Amia Hardcore" crowd should want. All it's going to do is force casters to grind more.

Dwagin wrote:

I'm okay with things costing more, don't get me wrong, but I don't think a level 9 spell should ever cost more than 500 gold.

The numbers MoshingChris had earlier suggested a level 9 spell could cost as little as 540GP.

What it would actually be, I don't know. Obviously though, the more spells you use, the more costs you rack up. It would become a good thing to not waste level 9 spells certainly, if you have to have 540GP or the equivalent on hand. But if you needed to use four of them to wipe out a group of enemies which are threatening one or more of your party members, then that would still be more economical than the party needing to raise one party member.

I think the changes could have still have some kind of effect without being annoying, if the cost were half the quoted amount above, or if components could be more cheaply supplied by the job system (just, not in the field).

What you could do, as a means of making casters lives easier, is allow resting after a shorter time. It's not going to matter as much that they will be able to dump lots of spells into enemies, if they have to fork out GP per spell.

Summon, buff, never worry about attacking again (save true emergencies).

I had an idea, based in part on the ideas on the first page. I don't know if it's any good but here goes anyway:

Acquisition tax.

Each equippable item will fall into a particular tax band. For convenience, these tax bands can be assigned to an item (as a variable) when it is picked from the loot bin, or when a shop is first initialised. They would follow the gold piece value of the item (and hence the level to equip).

When you acquire the item, the game checks where you are. If you're out in the wilderness, the item is not tax stamped. If you're in a city like Cordor, the item is tax stamped for that city. If you enter a city and you still have items eligible for tax stamping, they are stamped for that city.

When an item gets stamped, the tax for that band is added to your tax total for that city (so, taxes are local). But the gold is not taken from you until you visit a tax collector.

So obviously you can still trade items with other players outside a city, but when you bring items in, they become subject to tax. If there are merchants not in a city, you can sell items to them without paying tax, but you won't necessarily get a good rate.

When you enter another city, no item that you have paid tax on will be eligible for tax stamping. Unless the new city refuses to honour the stamp which is on it, which would be very bad for their business since potential customers would go elsewhere.

When a stamped item changes hands from one player to another (even if indirectly via a shopkeeper) it is once again eligible for tax stamping.

When a stamped item is crafted at the mythal forge, if it moves to a higher tax band because of new item properties, then you are liable for the difference in tax between the old band and the new band.

Because items are stamped only once, you can't rack up a massive tax bill by crafting the appearance of an item, since the 'new item' retains the stamp of the old. This is worth noting since when you craft an item's appearance a lot of 'item acquiring' goes on.

Each city can set their own taxes, which would probably be a fixed amount in proportion to the middle gold piece value for that tax band. The first tax band would be probably be exempt from taxation or have a very low tax rate - the items falling into that category would have a gold piece value of under 2000GP (or whatever lower limit you want to set) and anyone acquiring those items is likely to have the least earning power. The smaller the city is, and the less services it can provide, the less taxation it can afford to impose.

If for some reason you run up a lot of taxes in one city without paying, there may be consequences. Nothing too drastic, I hope.

Okay. That's it. Feel free to throw rotten produce, money, and live grenades in my direction. :lol:

Well, the balance for 'Good damage all day' was paying for it for melee with potions if no wizard was around.

Faster resting for casters with a cost attached would allow this.

But some spawn/spell rebalancing would have to be done, big time, for it to be worthwhile, or the costs would have to be severely reduced below even 500gp per level 9 for it to be numerically viable.

I don't want wizards turned into. 'Must have party to be a buff *@!$(*!' or they can't play the game with similar viability that other classes can.

Selmak has a decent idea and I feel Dwagin's sentiments, as well. I just continue to have the sneaking suspicion that taxing casters on their spells will simply filter down to the non-casters in the form of, "How bad do you want that 30+ round Haste?".

Taxes are silly.

Gee, why not strip all uses of any spells and place components in material outlets for Wizards to harvest before they can use spells? Real hardcorz.

ainjyll wrote:

Selmak has a decent idea and I feel Dwagin's sentiments, as well. I just continue to have the sneaking suspicion that taxing casters on their spells will simply filter down to the non-casters in the form of, "How bad do you want that 30+ round Haste?".

Well when you get right down to it, a caster lives a lot longer if their buddies kill things quickly so that nothing even gets a sniff of magic user. They may also find that their friends will be happy to pay for a thirty-round haste because it's more cost-effective than burning through Haste postions.

Right enough though, it might be more prudent to only haste for the tricky fights and not simply slather it on just because you can. One of the reasons casters don't hold back with casting is because there isn't any cost to them if they cast a spell which isn't needed; especially not if they last rested more than 15 minutes ago, in which case they can get that casting right back, or switch it out for something else.

BTW, taxes may be silly, but they're a little less silly than hyperinflation.

Selmak wrote:

ainjyll wrote:

Well when you get right down to it, a caster lives a lot longer if their buddies kill things quickly so that nothing even gets a sniff of magic user. They may also find that their friends will be happy to pay for a thirty-round haste because it's more cost-effective than burning through Haste postions.

I agree, however, let's remember the original reason for the suggestion of a spell cost. To narrow the financial gap between casters and non-casters. If casters just charge for their buffs, then that gap doesn't go anywhere and could actually increase in some cases.

If you have casters partying with non-casters then yeah, there is probably going to be some kind of negotiation regarding spell costs. What you have to remember is that when non-casters get buffed or when enemies get disabled, it reduces the rate at which the party needs to expend potions and healing kits. So it sure is worth it for the non-casters.

The financial gap between casters and non-casters is narrowed, if you're considering how much they earn versus how much they spend when soloing. When you have both of them together in a party, there is going to be a disparity in earning versus spending if spell costs are passed on, but in a party you're usually getting a smaller share of loot as a trade-off for greater survivability, faster fights and better XP than you could get if you were solo. If you wanted to earn lots of gold for yourself, you would go out solo.

Why the incessant focus on nerfing mages, yet leaving clerics alone in this topic, I have no idea. They're far far worse.

At least mages have to buy heal potions/kits.

As far as I'm concerned, whatever a level 9 arcane caster has to pay, a level 9 divine caster has to pay too.

Yush thats the reason we use caster to define them.

Also a full wizards spell book entirely used will not cost over 15k in any of the models provided.

Making people pay per casting of a spell will make them want to cast less.

Making people want to cast less will make them rush from spawn to spawn more

Running from spawn to spawn will make people RP less during hunting.

Making people pay per casting reduces "in hunt"-RP
-----------
Making people pay per casting of a spell can make them:
1) Stop hunting all together, until they realise they need to use spells every now and then in other situations and they end up paying for that. (first step might be skipped)
2) Hunt more because it costs more to keep up their playing style, leaving less time for RP.

Maximal cost of:
1 (price per level) x 30 (caster level) x 12 (number of spells per level? Probably less than this, I'm not a builder and this is a maximum estimate anyway) * 39 (number of spell levels between 4 and 9 inclusive) = 14 040 gp

Assuming 10 spells per level: 11 700 gp

Assuming 8 spells per level: 9 360 gp

A suggestion for DM's to reduce the coin of the playerbase:

Start tournaments, with an entrance fee. Prices are artifacts of conciderable power or just neat enough to do it for. Be it an item from the epic loot bin selected based on the winners Character Sheet or just a random item from the epic loot bin or an item made for the tournament alone.

Limited amount of places each time, to keep things clear, but spectators can come, and if it is like "the old days" they will come: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1EDJd5Glaw

Tournaments can be anything you want off course, and the competition can be told beforehand or not. Maybe the competitors know what they have to do, so they know if it is a waste of their cash or not. Maybe they don't... so it's a bit of a gamble.

Possible competitions:
- race to find an item somewhere on the server. (easter egg hunt) Bring it back to the start location and receive your reward.
-- the race can be just a general search with one cryptic description of the item and location or with multiple boards linking the contenders to a final spot.

- regular beat-down
- magic show (impress the crowd)
- solve some riddles
- just a plain ass lottery with the in game dice system (like usually done with epic loot)
- ...

Start with a first tournament with a 1M entrance fee, see how fast it fills... you can upgrade or downgrade your entrance fee accordingly.

PRO's vs bossrunning:
1) you can still run your bosses that reset if you really want to
2) DM interaction, what a lot of players so eagerly want, and now you can "sort of" buy it with your IC coins.
3) chance to put in/win rare loot
4) status goes up if you win a competition more then if you just kill an NPC boss for the billionth time.
CON's
If they prove popular people might start to farm to be able to join

But then you just put the entrance fee to a x% of your currently held gold, when they stand in line to register (so they can't give it to their friends)

Your entire post is going to read "oh boy, more stuff for the bossfarmers to do that I can't, to lord over me" to people, I think.

TormakSaber wrote:

Your entire post is going to read "oh boy, more stuff for the bossfarmers to do that I can't, to lord over me" to people, I think.

While it is the exact opposite if you take the last sentence into account, while the people are eager to join in, and waiting in line you tell them the entrance fee is a % of their currently held coin after you let the contenders in. (just ask them beforehand if they want to play no matter what, but disguise it a bit so it looks like their characters will have "physical" pain, then twist it into a flat 5% gold loss) *whistles innocently*

Only the beat downs become a show for them then, the other stuff everybody is equal to join in and win.

TormakSaber wrote:

Your entire post is going to read "oh boy, more stuff for the bossfarmers to do that I can't, to lord over me" to people, I think.

It does to me, at least. What it boils down to is that a large entrance fee makes it only available to those that have a lot of money, meaning generally (but not exclusively) those who farm. A percentage gold loss would not be treated well by any of the richest characters at all IMO, and so they won't play. That said, if the price decreases sufficient to allow more people to participate, the items will be neither that powerful nor so much of a commodity, so it won't exactly be an effective drain.

I still like the 'remove cap on gold lost at death' idea, or at least raise it.

Yurell wrote:

A percentage gold loss would not be treated well by any of the richest characters at all IMO, and so they won't play.

Oh but you got to be smart about that, for example combine it with the below suggestion (which I also am in favor of)

Yurell wrote:

I still like the 'remove cap on gold lost at death' idea

And then the first step of the tournament is send them to the afterlife, put an insane boss against them, make them respawn if they don't win, so they pay their respawn % and go to the fugue plane. There they get the next key to the solution of the competition.

:twisted:

TormakSaber wrote:

Your entire post is going to read "oh boy, more stuff for the bossfarmers to do that I can't, to lord over me" to people, I think.

There is one big pro to the idea, however. It would suck x amount of millions of gold from the playerbase, instead of just passing them from character to character as different pieces of epic loot are found. In a scheduled DM event, there may be 20 characters, 20 million... a lottery of some sort could draw 3 or 4 times that amount, if not more as people would be able to enter multiple characters if they wanted and the limitations of timezone are completely erased.

Yes, it would cater to the bossfarmers. But those are the people with the millions upon millions upon millions that we're trying to get out of the economy, no?

Events could be put into place with time limits, as well. If nobody finds the "easter egg" and returns here within 30 minutes, then nobody wins. If done properly (meaning the payoff is worth the risk), then I believe something along these lines could prove to be quite beneficial.

Perhaps an almost true-to-life lottery? 50,000 gold a ticket. Pick 6 numbers 0-99. If you're 6 numbers match the 6 numbers generated by the dice rolls, then you win. Keep it from progressing and just make a piece of epic loot or something equally attractive the prize. Odds are more gold will leave the economy than the prize is worth and allows the non-bossfarmers chances at winning, too.

When characters have 150 million, 85 million, 275 million, 20 million is not enough.

It needs to reduce them to 5-6 digit gold. 100k. Max. And you WILL NOT DO THAT without doing the radical changes that Yossarin and myself have proposed. No compensation. No rewards. The money needs to disappear. End of story.

I hate to use real life scenarios when speaking about a fantasy game, but in this case, I believe it's justified.

North Carolina only recently began it's own lottery. I go to the same store every day for my daily ration of beer and nicotine and I see the same people every day, buying 1, 2, 3 or even 5 lotto tickets for each drawing. These people have obviously not won the multi-million dollar prize, yet they continue to dump several $'s per ticket every day into the chance of winning the lottery. The fact that people will spend money on the simple chance to win something is what needs to be utilized. The price of each ticket is completely subjective and can be adjusted for whatever it is that is being offered.

The simple fact is that this would draw money out of the pockets of those "bored, bossfarming epics" that are in possession of the vast majority of wealth sitting around on PC's on Amia and would offer nothing more than what a bossfarmer has a chance to get anyways and at a much reduced chance, at that. The hook to the idea is the same as that which causes people to bossfarm in the first place. The chance, no matter how small, that they might get that piece of loot.

It may not sound like a big difference, but the fact remains that the difference between 150 million and 140 million is 10 million and 10 million of anything is no amount to be scoffed at.

On the other hand, I expect that it's the poor folks who are buying the lottery tickets in the hope of winning big, not those who are already rich.

ainjyll wrote:

I hate to use real life scenarios when speaking about a fantasy game, but in this case, I believe it's justified.

North Carolina only recently began it's own lottery. I go to the same store every day for my daily ration of beer and nicotine and I see the same people every day, buying 1, 2, 3 or even 5 lotto tickets for each drawing. These people have obviously not won the multi-million dollar prize, yet they continue to dump several $'s per ticket every day into the chance of winning the lottery. The fact that people will spend money on the simple chance to win something is what needs to be utilized. The price of each ticket is completely subjective and can be adjusted for whatever it is that is being offered.

The simple fact is that this would draw money out of the pockets of those "bored, bossfarming epics" that are in possession of the vast majority of wealth sitting around on PC's on Amia and would offer nothing more than what a bossfarmer has a chance to get anyways and at a much reduced chance, at that. The hook to the idea is the same as that which causes people to bossfarm in the first place. The chance, no matter how small, that they might get that piece of loot.

It may not sound like a big difference, but the fact remains that the difference between 150 million and 140 million is 10 million and 10 million of anything is no amount to be scoffed at.

They have a bigger chance of doing it wile bossfarming, are making money not losing money, and so will scoff at the very concept of your gold draining lottery. The gold draining cannot be voluntary or it will not be drained. It must be mandatory and excessive.

TormakSaber wrote:

When characters have 150 million, 85 million, 275 million, 20 million is not enough.

It needs to reduce them to 5-6 digit gold. 100k. Max. And you WILL NOT DO THAT without doing the radical changes that Yossarin and myself have proposed. No compensation. No rewards. The money needs to disappear. End of story.

Nah. What needs to disappear is this mentality of screwing over people who have legally earned this money using the system in place, just because their style of play doesn't meet someone else's elitist standard 100% of the time.

That is the attitude that has caused the ruination of the economy, folks, and why you will never see a fix passed unless the DMS are willnig to piss them off. The classic control scenario.

To be honest, I agree with Tormak. The amounts of money that've come into the Amian economy are more then mildly insane.

And, regrettably, there's one of two ways at them:

1) Be a hardcore Epic Soloer.

2) Befriend a hardcore epic soloer.

That said: With enough time and dedication into it you could still amass a darn good sum of money. But what would you do with it?

762 wrote:

Nah. What needs to disappear is this mentality of screwing over people who have legally earned this money using the system in place, just because their style of play doesn't meet someone else's elitist standard 100% of the time.

Your reasoning is flawed. It isn't being suggested because people want to screw over those who farm, it's being suggested because the economy is in very bad shape.

As far as cutting down everyone to the 100k mark goes, Tormak, wouldn't that just encourage item trading instead of gold, making it even harder for people to buy their way into the epic loot market?

Edit: Double ninjad

There is far more the accompanies the economic paradigm shift, but a compensationless SLASHING of funds must be an integral facet. Yossarin and I have explained it tons of times and it is clear that it won't happen because the powers that be do not want to anger the bossfarmers who have choked the economy into submission and have thus become the victims of their own vicious cycle.

Yeah, blame us greedy bastards, for actually not wanting to see literally hundreds of hours of work come to nothing.

What's worse, people wanting to keep what they've spent dozens if not hundreds of hours earning? Or you wanting to say FU to every single one of them because you don't agree with them spending time doing that in the first place?

762 wrote:

Yeah, blame us greedy bastards, for actually not wanting to see literally hundreds of hours of work come to nothing.

What's worse, people wanting to keep what they've spent dozens if not hundreds of hours earning? Or you wanting to say FU to every single one of them because you don't agree with them spending time doing that in the first place?

What about wanting to fix a real problem that does exist?

Problem?

What can't you afford, and why can't you afford it?

762 wrote:

Problem?

What can't you afford, and why can't you afford it?

I can't afford a Perfect Mythal. And thats a cheap example.

I can't afford it because they are usually 2million or higher.

I struggle to get 2million because I do not have the hours to invest in gold-farming.

I struggle because I do not have an effecient means to gold-farm. (Be it location, build-reasons, or lack of knowledge).

Amia suffers because it lacks a Resource Cap. Gold is indefinite here.

There is no such thing as credit or debt. (Short of some really fantastic roleplay!)

That you choose to overlook the problem ebcause you are a cause, a contributor, and a controller does not mean the problem doesn't exist.

I overlook the problem, because I have yet to see it explained by someone who doesn't want some kind of welfare system where they can get valuable and rare commodities without actually having to work for them.

No offense Torzeng, but that's how your post reads.

People who have more time to invest in playing the game are going to get greater rewards from it. That's a fact of life.

And the fact that a perfect mythal can still be bought at all for < 4 million tells me it's not broken at all.

That is why we need information for how wealth is distributed. If 99.9% of people never get over half a million, then that is a problem. Counterwise, if 95% of people hit 10 million, then not so much.

In this case, the ''work'' constitutes occ grinding away at spawns for hundreds of hours instead of actually RPing or acomplishing things in character. By saying that those who want rewards should work for them, you are telling them to stop rping, make a powerbuild and bossfarm 24/7. That's the problem.

D&D is about adventure. RP is integral in this but its still about adventure, and things surrounding that. Sometimes Amia feels like a glorified chat simulator to me. I don't blame people getting bored of adventuring as we could use some new epic hunting areas and have no forms of advancement post level cap beyond epic gear.

By making the general game more difficult, kneecaping gold stores, and perfectly balancing everything else around the economy a massive gaping hole would still remain: People who solo boss farm already have very strong builds which enable to them to do it. It won't hurt them if the economy suddenly takes a dive towards the expensive because the build will insulate them against the costs. The only requisite thing that remains is attempting to nerf/fix either the bosses or the abilities/builds which enable this solo farming. Some of the intended changes will hurt those causal about adventuring more than the intended targets however.

If having my merchant's gold hoard ganked as part of a plan which has a true chance to fix the economy would do it, I'd be willing to do it in a heartbeat. But it'll take more than that.

You gotta break some eggs to make an omelet.

Moonangel wrote:

In this case, the ''work'' constitutes occ grinding away at spawns for hundreds of hours instead of actually RPing or acomplishing things in character. By saying that those who want rewards should work for them, you are telling them to stop rping, make a powerbuild and bossfarm 24/7. That's the problem.

That ain't a problem, except in the mind of the hardcore crowd.

Dwagin wrote:

D&D is about adventure. RP is integral in this but its still about adventure, and things surrounding that. Sometimes Amia feels like a glorified chat simulator to me. I don't blame people getting bored of adventuring as we could use some new epic hunting areas and have no forms of advancement post level cap beyond epic gear.

But then again, repeatedly killing the exact same monster in the exact same location is no more of an 'adventure' than standing around Cordor chatting.

762 wrote:

Moonangel wrote:

In this case, the ''work'' constitutes occ grinding away at spawns for hundreds of hours instead of actually RPing or acomplishing things in character. By saying that those who want rewards should work for them, you are telling them to stop rping, make a powerbuild and bossfarm 24/7. That's the problem.

That ain't a problem, except in the mind of the hardcore crowd.

What hardcore crowd?

Mo money, mo problems

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