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This happened alot to me lately. I join the hunting party, people go over my icon and see "temple of evil god". It happens that someone is a knight/cleric of some order we are at war with and suddenlly I'm not getting the port, im getting things like "do not invite my enemies to the party" or "im not porting a banite" in party chat, or im switching server for a minute to buy more potions of something and when I'm back I'm getting no invitation anymore. No wait, its not that im getting no invitation anymore, im getting nothing anymore. I become completly ignored.

I understand that some people do not want to expose their toons to get fallen, and I know that open followers of evil deities are mostly not welcome to any party, and I know that we are killing eachother on daily basis and that we are at war but it would be nice if we could RP this. If you don't want your pally or whatever to hunt with some banite, velsharoonite etc. its completly alright. But do it ICly. Meet up with my toon and than -IF- you find out what or who he is, tell him that you are not going to hunt with his kind. OOC metagaming of my religion and character even before we meet in one location is diheartening.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone here but I just hope that some people will understand this as an advice instead of an accusation.

I totally agree, the icon is an OOC thing, lets keep it that way. If your character doesn’t know in an IC way that he is a banite. Or whatever, then ignore the icon.

By doing that you are missing out on allot of potential RP by not knowing and perhaps in finding out later on that they are not who you thought they was. Try not to force finding out either, just let the RP go as it may.

Last edited by Dead on Wed, Apr 21 2010, 0:22 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I'd only like to add why it feels diheartening to me. Becouse when someone is doing this, and ignores me OOCly, I feel like the potential hate between our characters is adressed to me. And than I'm feeling bad, and than I log. This has been spoken many times before but here I shall repeat it once again: My characters and me are not the same persons, so if you are having IC argument with my character, or my character tortures your character to death, it doesn't mean that OOCly I dont like you.

Well, I think I speak for the DM team when I say that if you're a paladin or whatnot and you're hunting with a person who a.) you don't know is evil ICly, and b.) is not *currently* acting obviously evil, then we're not going to fall you for either being unknowingly in a group with an evil person or not metagaming your OOC knowledge that they're evil.

The second they break out the undead or the demon, or start to talk about doing stuff like mutilating babies' corpses before feeding them to their pet red dragon.... Yeah, then it becomes a point of conflict.

Your partying in a completely OOC way by partying prior to meeting the mentioned characters you are conflicted with. As far as I'm concerned thats metagaming.

You also mentioned port to party. Again something i consider metagaming.

Forming OOC parties is OOC, and if people don't want to risk a fall from a completely OOC action taken in game, I think they are well within rights to refuse to port you to them (since thats also OOC)

MoshingChris wrote:

Your partying in a completely OOC way by partying prior to meeting the mentioned characters you are conflicted with. As far as I'm concerned thats metagaming.

You also mentioned port to party. Again something i consider metagaming.

Forming OOC parties is OOC, and if people don't want to risk a fall from a completely OOC action taken in game, I think they are well within rights to refuse to port you to them (since thats also OOC)

^

This is why some people leave their bios blank, out of fear of metagaming. Also makes for an exciting introduction to their character, giving me a lot to build on for initiating RP and visualising their character... a blank page! O_O

Blank bio does help you get into whatever hunting party you like, however.

I see your points. both Tormy and Christ. but in that case, disabling party chat, and tells, and party tool would be in order, or making it a public rule. Until than we cannot say that its a valid argument. However Chris, as Gers said, fear of getting fallen on OOC basis becouse of OOC knowledge is unneccecary.

Besides this is not all about not being invited to a party and stuff, but becouse about getting ignored/disliked on OOC level becouse of IC things.

He is Right Chris, Amia provides for the OOC partying so it should not even be a consideration. Deads’ point is that he is being ignored by parties for their OOC knowledge of his IC alignment or associations and that should not be done. It doesn’t matter how the party is being formed, especially when formed by a means that Amia has given to us players.

Dead, that will happen no matter where you go on a RP server. It is unfortunate but not all that rare that IC feelings bleed over to OOC feelings and vice versa.

I don't think either of you got my point.

OOC parties don't exist. If you get into a party OOC and people don't port you to them which is also OOC, they are not metagaming you because metagaming is specifically using OOC knowledge to affect the IC. Since you have had no IC character interaction basically all they are doing is protecting their own interests.

Personally I think being falled would be epically interesting, but it would be a load of crap to get falled because I OOCly ported in a character that I know is evil OOC for a hunt.

I see what you did there. They are not metagaming by the definition of metagaming. Otherwise that would be breaking of the rules and they would be reported. By saying that I'm not going to point fingers at anyone here, I think I've made clear that I'm not accusing anyone of rule breaking. Its just like you said, protecting their own interest. But we are not here to protect our interests, but to have fun interacting with other people that are having different interests. Our mutual interest to have some fun and RP instead of placing our toons under the bell made of glass and have them unharmed and unouched by the evil RP that lurks out there in the wilderness of Amia.

as you pointed, there is absolutely nothing wrong even with getting fallen. I've seen people requesting fallen widget. Unlike staying alive at yuan-ti, its a RP challenge and above all "epically interesting" as you said.

If someone doesn't want to throw you a portal OOCly without knowing you're there or coming ICly that's their business. the fact that Amia "lets you do it" doesn' mean it's IC or even a good thing.

Amia doesn't "provide for OOC parties". NWN's framework allows for it.

The point I read in Deads first post is that he is invited then uninvited and even ignored based on his icon. Indeed inviting to a party when not even next to them is OOC just like using the party ball. To ignore someone to RP with based off his icon and OOC knowledge is even more grieves and people will not only loose out on RP themselves but also denies Deads RP with them.

I must say my immediate reaction upon reading your 'dilemma' was much the same as Moshing's. You're complaining that someone saw where you were in the party screen OOCly, and then decided to not throw you a portal ... which would have been 'OOC' anyway, since he had no IC reason to collect you. I suppose that's more of two equal and opposite metagamings cancelling eachother out, to be honest.
The 'party' function is itself more of an OOC concept than an IC one, made only to know where your teammates are, their state of health to determine xp / loot. Beyond that, it serves no purpose ... you are either ICly in a party or you're not. If you met them IC, teleported away to do something briefly, and someone kicked you because he saw you were somewhere evil then you'd have something to complain about. Organising a party on an OOC level lets others make OOC choices.

In short, they may be 'metagaming' you're icon, but you're metagaming the party.

Seems right that it's 2 'metagamings' cancelling each other out....but...

At least send some OOC to appologise, let players know it's not personal.

My Bio's are just a general physical discription, to avoid this kind of thing.

imo, I would rather RP the meeting and such, but when some people are 'grinding' they can't be bothered to take the time to RP, and it's sad.

To some extent, I suppose it's consquences of actions to in terms of being someones enemy anyway.
Though it's no excuse for rude behaviour.

Dead wrote:

"do not invite my enemies to the party" or "im not porting a banite"

That is what irks me most about the whole matter.

The fact aside that partying itself is OOC (Why do we have to be in a party to share the XP of hunting and my friend over there killing a gnoll, of which I would see nill if we were not in a party) mechanic.

Such statements are pretty hurtful, I at least would see the very first comment as something very very personal. They think I am their enemy! And that is not said IC from what I get but in the party chat to boot. Its not just on the IC level of dislike, but profundedly on the OOC level.

Alright i'm done with grinding 'Thank the gods'

But come on isn't it common sense that if say you were a paladin and your grinding away and you get a message from a banite "Hey come pick me up"
Would your response be. Um no?

Now wait before you all jump me by saying something like 'It promotes good RP' because that is not the point of this topic

HellScourge wrote:

The fact aside that partying itself is OOC (Why do we have to be in a party to share the XP of hunting and my friend over there killing a gnoll, of which I would see nill if we were not in a party) mechanic.

Nonono. The party function that tells you where everyone is is OOC. Partying itself is entirely an IC act.

Then I must've misread there something.

Get rid of the party ball altogether or choose NOT to use it if you're worried about metagaming. To me, the party ball has to be the worst tool ever invented (along with party chat, portalling in and out during adventures and a bunch of other stuff I'm fed up with).

In short, don't use it, then its no longer an issue.

Technicalities aside, I should think it's obvious that the kind of behaviour mentioned in the OP is just arseholenism. It's rude. You're entitled not to want to port someone whose PC is bad, but it's absolutely ridicilous to make that judgement. It's hypocrisy to invite a good guy your PC gets along with, but not invite an evil guy your PC wouldn't get along with. Why should the allegiance of a PC affect the attitude of the players?

It's technically fine, no refuting that. But it's pretty silly to defend such behaviour, because it's obviously childish and rude.

IronAngel wrote:

It's hypocrisy to invite a good guy your PC gets along with, but not invite an evil guy your PC wouldn't get along with.

Pray explain how that is hypocrisy. It seems like straight-forward reasoning to me, unless you demand to be invited by evil people in turn.

The hypocrisy is in that you're happy to use the OOC party system, ports etc. when you're inviting a buddy who plays a good-aligned PC, but you ignore a person who plays an evil PC (because you ignore the player, not the PC) on the basis that "you're entitled to it because you don't have to use OOC tools."

Don't use them at all, or use them equally on everyone. Because every player is entitled to the same politeness and equal treatment by their peers, no matter what kind of a character they play.

I fail to see what alignment or affiliation has to do with this at all. You're mixing IC and OOC if you stop to evaulate another character's motives OOC for a second. Organizing a party OOC lets you make OOC choices, like you said. It's "legit." But to make an OOC choice based on what kind of a character the other player chooses to play, is ludicrous and rude.

The fact that people are trying to find technical justifications and "reasoning" for not having to be nice to other people is disturbing in itself. It doesn't matter whether you have the right to ignore them; that you would even want to is what I called arseholenism.

IronAngel wrote:

The hypocrisy is in that you're happy to use the OOC party system, ports etc. when you're inviting a buddy who plays a good-aligned PC, but you ignore a person who plays an evil PC (because you ignore the player, not the PC) on the basis that "you're entitled to it because you don't have to use OOC tools."

Don't use them at all, or use them equally on everyone. Because every player is entitled to the same politeness and equal treatment by their peers, no matter what kind of a character they play.

That seems more discriminatory behaviour (whether good or ill I leave up to the reader) than hypocrisy to me, unless they claim they are willing to accept everyone and then refuse access.
Terminology arguments aside, I would advocate that everyone is treated equally, but understand that some would rather use their OOC tools with more discrimination than others.

P.S. I realise that discrimination has negative connotations - I'm not attempting to invoke these, I just couldn't think of a suitable synonym.

I have to say my Character Xal hunts with good guys all the time. He is neutral evil, he is a drow. He is not a lolthite, he generally always has his entire body covered, he doesn't do anything to suggest he is evil or anything beyond a normal elf. He doesn't remove his hood and keeps it lowered (He wears a mask beneath it, and yea saving for that one helm). Unless a Paladin used "Detect Evil", which I believe requires permission unless the rules have been changed, there is no reason someone should suspect him evil, unless he said something stupid or someone told them he was.

However, the alternative is that if you are running around as a guy wearing the colours of an evil faction, a name tag of an evil group, and the symbols of evil gods on you, then you can expect that people will tell you to go jump in a lake when you party with them. I expect also that people probably don't like the idea of being fooled, when you couldn't possibly be aware of the classes or alignments of your fellow party members, nor even that you would be partying with them to begin with, so thus have no inclination to be disguised or approach people any differently.

I like the party ball, but I can certaintly see where peple are getting annoyed at things. The thing is, you kinda need to just grow up, put it to the side, and rather then focus on whats causing the issue, focus on getting past it and moving foreward. Be that by accepting that the evil guy is in disguise and moving on with the fun and RP, or by leaving the party yourself, or by even Pvping the guy.

My biggest gripe, is the suggestion a DM would fall a paladin or cleric for traveling with someone who is evil. I'd hope the DM would check with the players first that they actually know each other is good or evil IC. Because they may simply not know, and then no dogma is being broken. Furthermore, if the paladin knows and his intentions are to convert or get information in the name of his god or good, he probably doesn't qualify for turning. I would think a DM would do a bet of investigation before hand, rather then just slapping the fall stick on someone due to perception, and then having to deal with a world of bitch fits, and possibly a few kicks up the ass heh.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Unless a Paladin used "Detect Evil", which I believe requires permission unless the rules have been changed, there is no reason someone should suspect him evil, unless he said something stupid or someone told them he was.

The rules haven't been changed AFAIK ... it needs permission.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

My biggest gripe, is the suggestion a DM would fall a paladin or cleric for traveling with someone who is evil. I'd hope the DM would check with the players first that they actually know each other is good or evil IC.

DMs have said in other topics that they don't Fall paladins for things like that unless the other person is obviously evil e.g. undead summons, demons etc.

Yurell wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Unless a Paladin used "Detect Evil", which I believe requires permission unless the rules have been changed, there is no reason someone should suspect him evil, unless he said something stupid or someone told them he was.

The rules haven't been changed AFAIK ... it needs permission.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

My biggest gripe, is the suggestion a DM would fall a paladin or cleric for traveling with someone who is evil. I'd hope the DM would check with the players first that they actually know each other is good or evil IC.

DMs have said in other topics that they don't Fall paladins for things like that unless the other person is obviously evil e.g. undead summons, demons etc.

Mhmm, the second one was more a confirmation that it's unlikely to happen for more then just "because its unfair", that if someone did it they would probably get called out big time.

Being ignored OOC is pretty harsh because you can't then negociate with them about what they know IC. If you're at the point you're being ignored you could use your bio to ask people not metagame the fact you're a Banite, even though you are because your un-holy symbol isnt visible etc. Yes this is a lame idea and theres no guarantee they'll be a sport but once people start ignoring you OOC I'm not sure theres alot you can do to persuade people gameside.

I think more (un)common courtesy and less rudeness would go a far way to helping out these problems. IC and OOC arguments aside -- they are aside for this portion b/c of course the party ball is an OOC tool, but INTENDED to be manifested in an IC way -- just be nice, folks!

Even if you haven't seen the guy or read his description but you see the icon and it's obviously Banite or other evil you wouldn't party with, and you don't want to waste your time ICly, shoot an inquiry tell: "Is he obviously evil, etc. b/c I have a good pally and won't be able to party with you if you do something obviously evil"

Or if they show up and you read the description, and you know it ain't gonna work:

"Doh, he has that symbol of Bane emblazoned on his forehead and no helm? ...Dang, my guy wouldn't party up with him then, sorry dude!"

. . . or the like. I think courtesy is the main thing here. Just be nice, people.

Merrien wrote:

Or if they show up and you read the description, and you know it ain't gonna work:

Just as a side note, you can read their description before they show up, by using examine on their portrait in the party screen by first assigning it to your quickbar.

Yurell wrote:

Merrien wrote:

Or if they show up and you read the description, and you know it ain't gonna work:

Just as a side note, you can read their description before they show up, by using examine on their portrait in the party screen by first assigning it to your quickbar.

Good point; forgot about that too.

Bios should be like miniskirts. Long enough to cover what needs to be covered, short enough to be interesting.

Unless you have VISIBLE signs of being, say, a Banite, it shouldn't even BE in your Bio. Your Bio is what people can SEE. Not your life history. We have a wiki for that.

Now, if you have it because it's visible, and the OOC fun begins, just go your own way. Plenty of people are more than happy to have a secret Banite in party.

Some people like to put their history in their bio. To each their own, but beware if it is in there there is the potential for metagame, deliberate or otherwise.

AxlLeigh wrote:

Your Bio is what people can SEE. Not your life history. We have a wiki for that.

I can't agree with this more. Now that bios are editable, this is very easy to keep updated.

The topic is moving towards some other problems that weren't described in the original post. however the point is always the same. Be nice. I'm not a moralfag and Im not an angel but I know that I'm always nice and cheery to people OOCly, weather their toons are members of bane, cyric, lolth, lathander or kelemvor or whoever. You don't even have to be nice, but at least don't be rude and don't ignore and grief other players for the mentioned reasons. Silence hurts more than words.

Okay...I don't hink it had anything to do with Bio's, just for the record.

I think he's talking about whenyou first invite someone after party ball...in the upper right hand corner, he party list, where it says what area people are in.

He said that because a player OOC noticed his character was in an evil area, disconnected, and wouldn't even allow him the IC chance to disguise himself, or even be called evil in-game.

I used to get this alot when I'd join a party and they'd see my toon was locatd then and there in Ultrinnan...and yes..they would go OOC and make a comment saying things like "I don't hunt with drow".

But how would they know that without ANY actual IC actions for them to even allow me an IC chance to be turned away.

That's the point he's trying to make I think:

He got turned away OOC before anyone even met IC.....and yes, I agree with Iron...it is disgusting.

The essence of my point is you have to reassure the other person you're adequately disguised, at least. Thinking pragmatically if they 'switch off' and ignore you because you're in the "temple of evil god" then loiter somewhere else before joining party and negotiate from there.

If you don't read my pages long bio, I will refuse to add you to my parties!

<.<

TormakSaber wrote:

If you don't read my pages long bio, I will refuse to add you to my parties!

<.<

While I have nothing against long bios, one could at least dump the important 'quick information' at the top for the convenience of others.

RP Protip along the lines of metagaming and bios:

Ingame, WYSIWYG. If a character appears convered in armor from head to toe(Full helm, armor with no skin showing et all), it makes for better RP if you respect that rather than what the PC's in question's bio says.

If you're not sure, then just send a tell to the player asking. I can't say how many times I wish people would have just asked "Hey, I can't tell, is your character covered now?" when I play my drow. Usually, instead, the character blurts out a huge monologue about the drow are evil and how xyz, and I have to explain for 10 minutes how this is metagaming. Usually to the rebutle "Well, you don't have that in your bio!". Well, I don't change my PC's bio everytime he changes clothes, nor do I feel the need to put in a "When armored: when clothed: when etc" place in my bio, when again, clothes often change.

Furthermore, making a guess to a character's race is probably logical. Even completely covered, I have no problem with someone looking at my drow and saying "Huh, I bet he's elvenkin.". That makes sense. What is not logical is when my covered drow says "Hello" and the response gotten is "*Recognizing the accent* Huh, you're a drow!". To which I say "//Um... did I emote an accent?" "//No...?" "Then don't assume I did because of my portrait, kthxbai". Usually, I wouldn't even care when this happens, but I've seen a gradual rise in it over the past few months, not only with my characters, not only with drow, but in general. That is all.

//rantiness

Yes, the Party Ball is an OOC assistant to help people find others with PC's in the same level range as the PC they are currently logged on as. This is not to say that it is in any way condoning OOC hunting. As many DM's have said, numerous times I might add, there is no such thing as an OOC hunting party on Amia. Everything your character does on Amia is IC with very few exceptions (using the PvP widget to raise someone after a fight, being one example). As OOC as the Party Ball may be, it in no way gives someone a license to be a complete twit. Saying "Do not accept my enemies into a party with me." is just one example of this. Party chat is completely OOC. When someone makes a statement like that, it is an OOC attack on the person the statement is directed towards. Players themselves should never be enemies, even if their characters are.

I never ask what alignment a character, who their deity is or what faction they belong to when forming a party with the Party Ball. All of that can and should be discovered through RP. Everyone can meet up somewhere and start to RP, if the group can't sustain itself for whatever reason, then ideally everyone walks away going, "Well, the party didn't work out, but damn if that RP wasn't really cool". If I end up in a party with someone from a warring faction, I always give them a forewarning. Usually, I get a positive response, occasionally I don't. However, I leave it up to the other person because I don't want to put them into a situation that they are uncomfortable with RP'ing.

As far as bio's go... well, I tend to sort through and keep the physical stats and disregard the rest as pretty fluff. If someone says in their bio that their character is Chultan, I'm going to assume that they have a Chultan accent unless it says otherwise. As others have said, don't put anything in your bio that you don't want everyone knowing. If your character is from Chult but was raised by someone from the Moonshaes and speaks with that accent instead of a Chultan one, then put it in the bio or leave it out completely. I find it much more satisfying to read a bio that fits in the physical characteristics all tied into a nice neat paragraph, then I do one that tells the entire backstory of the character.

Assume nondescript until specifically stated or emoted otherwise by the player/PC.

That's my advice. Just because someone's bio says they are chultan, it's still along the lines of god-gaming to assume and act as if they are speaking with an accent. If the player wants to make that a point or to show that, %90 of the time they will emote at the beginning of the convo *In a thick/light chultan accent* or just in the actual dialogue like through spelling.

You know what you do when you assume.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Assume nondescript until specifically stated or emoted otherwise by the player/PC.

That's my advice. Just because someone's bio says they are chultan, it's still along the lines of god-gaming to assume and act as if they are speaking with an accent. If the player wants to make that a point or to show that, %90 of the time they will emote at the beginning of the convo *In a thick/light chultan accent* or just in the actual dialogue like through spelling.

You know what you do when you assume.

Assuming they are knowledgeable enough to identify said accent. At most, if they do not have enough lore, or do not know about that culture, they will just hear a weird accent. They will know it is chultan if they heard it before, or they know how to recognize it or they know of that culture.

Usually, when my drow characters talk in common, I sometimes throw a drow word in the middle (usually when they are under stress of some sort) as a way to remind people that the PC has an accent.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Assume nondescript until specifically stated or emoted otherwise by the player/PC.

A bio is just that. A statement of what you see when you see the character. If it's in the bio, it can be logically argued that that's what your character sees/smells/hears. This is not to say that I think that every character should know what an accent from every part of Faerun sounds like, much the contrary actually.

All that needs to be stated in a bio is the basics: Height, build, possibly eye, hair and skin color, timbre of voice possibly, facial characteristics, scars, tattoos, etc. The same things that are included in a bolo by the police department. All the rest, while an interesting read, is in essence fluff.

I believe all the bio stuff falls under the same category as naming your character Bernard, but going by Al or whatever. If you're character's name is Bernard, but he's called Al, then name him Al and let people know he's really named Bernard through RP. By all means, don't get mad when someone forgets and calls him Bernard. If you put that your character is whatever it is in it's bio and then try to cover it up, don't get mad when someone accidentally uses it. It's much easier for all involved to leave it out of the bio and let it come out through RP.

MoshingChris wrote:

Your partying in a completely OOC way by partying prior to meeting the mentioned characters you are conflicted with. As far as I'm concerned thats metagaming.

You also mentioned port to party. Again something i consider metagaming.

Forming OOC parties is OOC, and if people don't want to risk a fall from a completely OOC action taken in game, I think they are well within rights to refuse to port you to them (since thats also OOC)

That's all dandy. Except... the majority of the server has been doing that for as long as Amia has existed.

But it's nothing new really, that we're all exploiting metagaming no-good liars.

Just because it's done doesn't mean it's good to keep doing.

I completely agree with that.

The only reason I can see why we've got party ball is because of the 5 levels = xp difference concept. If you kept the idea that beyond that, you get 1xp per kill, that would mean, people still get xp and thus, the whining about partying up with people of different levels would no longer be a valid excuse NOT to party with them.

Yes, I sound fed up of having a level 30 and being told to get out of the party because "we want xp not rp". I feel the party ball and the five levels rule is pushing for more of this kind of behaviour, where the emphasis is on the 'hunting of xp' rather than the 'hunting of rp'.

The party ball encourages OOCness entering into IC'ness. The ability to overly portal just about everywhere easily, with no loss of gold or xp, also contributes to OOC style behaviour. Then finally, the 5 levels rule on xp, causes just as many ooc'ness issues as it helps prevent (nannying etc).

I would say that any tool, that fosters an environment of forcing people to react with their characters in an OOC way, needs to be re-examined.

Party chat can be turned off thankfully, but then I find I might be standing around with a silent party for ages, whilst they're all talking OOC, with no IC rp going on.

All this just ruins IC immersion in terms of RP experience. The Quality of RP on Amia is great, when it remains IC. These tools are letting it down.

You do your thing and let others do theirs.

The Party Ball was a necessary solution to removing the CR rating in bios. It could be removed if we removed the level cap, but that's a big can of worms (which I'd admittedly want to see opened) but until then it's a tool for avoiding OOC clutter in the Talk channel when you're looking for parties, and it's an RP generator. If you don't know how to use it to good effect, you don't have to, but I've had tons of high quality RP thanks to it.

The best solution would be a server-wide message system to call for companions to gather in a specific location IC. But I ripped that off from another server.

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