AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Wyjyn: Loving all of you (and above all Disco) since 11 Jan 2007.

Protip: bad ones glow red. Duh.

Wouldn't that be metagaming a game mechanic? :?:

WYSIWYG...

Which doesn't extend to pretty glows and floating nametags.

Yurell wrote:

Which doesn't extend to pretty glows and floating nametags.

I could never remember if you're supposed to be able to see the glowy-eyes or not. So I never comment on it and assume I can't really make a fair judgement just because eyes seem to sparkle.

Good safetly logic...if you're not sure... Assume "no".

Torzeng wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Which doesn't extend to pretty glows and floating nametags.

I could never remember if you're supposed to be able to see the glowy-eyes or not. So I never comment on it and assume I can't really make a fair judgement just because eyes seem to sparkle.

Good safetly logic...if you're not sure... Assume "no".

Oh, glowing eyes you can see (I presume), I thought it was about the tab glow. I mustn't have read properly (really tired).

Tab glow shouldn't be presumed visible. Glowing eyes.. should. *sagenod*

I'm pretty sure it was a joke and you all just got trolled.

Take that!

Britains got Troll!

Spam is not tasty, no matter what flavor.

The1Kobra wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

If the PvP culture around monster races on Amia changed, I'm willing to bet some people would be happy to put together a bandit group of monsters.

Please tell me I'm misinterpreting what you're saying.
So, if people were able to freely PvP monsters, then people would start playing more monstrous monster characters? How does this logic follow? There aren't very many people playing monstrous monsters. How is making things harder, indeed, the very things complained about in the OP going to help? Where are those players going to come from? Thin air?

I mean, this is how I view the set-up, and the logic just doesn't connect.
P1: Few players play monstrous monster characters. Most PC monster characters are 'cutesies', and even they are few and far between.
P2: The reason people don't play monstrous monster characters is because they have an extremely limited base of players to RP with.
P3: Making monster characters freely PvPable, require a platinum award, and (perhaps) banning them from civilized areas will make them more attractive to players.
C: More people will play monster characters.
The problem here is P3. P3 is worsening the problem in P2 and would make monster characters less attractive to players and therefore they would logically be played less.

Why would people play monsters if they can't be monsters? That's the gist of my stance: if you make certain monster races monstrous, letting them PvP and be PvPed on sight and act like the bandits they are, more people might be interested. Maybe the total number of monster PCs would decrease, but the number of properly-played monster PCs would probably increase.

Monster races should primarily be PCs who intend to stir trouble, wage war and ultimately get permakilled. We don't need persistent monster PCs who socialize with others and become famous for something else than villainy. They should be subject to permadeath once they've been defeated for good. If you don't want to accept the role of a monster, don't play a monster, IMO.

Geld: try to read again. Then look up older topics and read them. If you can't make the simple distinctions I've laid and explicitly stated, I'm not sure there's any point in discussing. For example, I specifically said Good and Evil are not subjective or points of view, yet you continue to argue against that assumption. I said something completely different. I'm not sure how old you are and what your education is, so I apologize if I use too theoretical language. I'm not sure which part you don't understand, so I can't really clarify. But whatever crass mistake you think I've made, I can assure you I haven't. A distasteful ad homini is obviously an invalid argument, but I'm going to use one anyway and say that my education, hobbies and FR experience probably indicate that I'm more likely to be right than you. As smug as that may sound. I'm happy to show it, too, once you see fit to engage in actual conversation. Not in this topic, though.

I myself for this post define monster races as racial individuals which are not the part of the following categories: human, halfling, elf, half-elf, half-orc, dwarf or gnome, be they good aligned or evil.

Amia changed a long way from how monster races are treated. I remember in old cordor where you had a dracolich doing a jolly dance, three devils standing next to the side, a celestial conversing with them and paladins laughing at the antics of the undead dragon. It is difficult to play a monster race more so as in the past, as they are held to higher standards by DMs and Players by being treated in a more sober, less comical and more lore oriented fashion than before in the long long past and almost all requiring a platinum coin request.

My personal tip for the initial question of the topic creator: if the character already exists, try to find a group which will allow your monster race character to participate in, for instance if you play a goblin try to find a goblin tribe ( I believe there is one out there as a faction) to participate in or join the Underdark on Amia B, especially if you do not play your character as an exception from the rule, being a good hearted and kind being who gets along with almost everyone.

I remember when I created an aquatic elf. Currently I do not play him at all as he just doesn't fit in anywhere and it just feels odd for him to hang out on land alone regularly. Yet when he was part of the group Ziacat, FluffyDave, my sister and I created (and all together requested) it was a lot of fun and he had a place and group to interact with and was not just the lone freak in a big city of other freaks.

It's kind of funny how the population on Amia never learned how to disguise themselves.

It is reasonable that one should be able to bypass bans with disguises.

I had so good disguise I even fooled players oocly.

Neso wrote:

It's kind of funny how the population on Amia never learned how to disguise themselves.

It is reasonable that one should be able to bypass bans with disguises.

They can - if you get on at the same time as a DM, and they aren't busy so that you can infiltrate the city.

Question at iron, if mosters where pvp on sight, does that mean they are allowed to attack anyone? How would your system work, designate cl areas for them so they do not abuse lower levels ? Or should players come to know that there is a risk of going into the wild, and that is being jumped by a random group of level 30 goblins?

Yurell wrote:

Neso wrote:

It's kind of funny how the population on Amia never learned how to disguise themselves.

It is reasonable that one should be able to bypass bans with disguises.

They can - if you get on at the same time as a DM, and they aren't busy so that you can infiltrate the city.

When I tried to rp some disguising, dm just told me to go **** off and circle around cordor, instead of me going through it disguised.

Craig deathwalker wrote:

Question at iron, if mosters where pvp on sight, does that mean they are allowed to attack anyone? How would your system work, designate cl areas for them so they do not abuse lower levels ? Or should players come to know that there is a risk of going into the wild, and that is being jumped by a random group of level 30 goblins?

The latter. What's wrong with risk and fear? There's nothing more stupid than the worry about epics killing lowbies; that's metagaming. You should never think whether you're killing a level 3 or a level 30. They're all just PCs in a dangerous world.

But yes, I know it's not likely to happen on Amia. Too many cry-babies, if you will. I must confess I've mostly moved on to play elsewhere where there is danger, scary monsters and permadeath. And none of the catastrophic consequences Amians insist will result from a more mature take at the game. I wish Amia took that route too, because I've seen it work better.

TeroSNS wrote:

When I tried to rp some disguising, dm just told me to go **** off and circle around cordor, instead of me going through it disguised.

This makes NO IC sense whatsoever. I've been here for a while, and none of my characters have ever been asked to take their helmets off in Cordor, save for the gates. Not by NPCs, not by PCs. Considering that there is a way to enter Cordor without ever having to pass through these gates, I do not see how you are metagaming the guards. Many, many people who pass through Cordor are fully armored with a helmet on. The guards are the ones doing the metagaming, if they somehow magically know that one individual is banned, even though they cannot see his face or body.

Well, I've seen many banned people and races infiltrate with DM supervision.

IronAngel wrote:

Craig deathwalker wrote:

Question at iron, if mosters where pvp on sight, does that mean they are allowed to attack anyone? How would your system work, designate cl areas for them so they do not abuse lower levels ? Or should players come to know that there is a risk of going into the wild, and that is being jumped by a random group of level 30 goblins?

The latter. What's wrong with risk and fear? There's nothing more stupid than the worry about epics killing lowbies; that's metagaming. You should never think whether you're killing a level 3 or a level 30. They're all just PCs in a dangerous world.

But yes, I know it's not likely to happen on Amia. Too many cry-babies, if you will. I must confess I've mostly moved on to play elsewhere where there is danger, scary monsters and permadeath. And none of the catastrophic consequences Amians insist will result from a more mature take at the game. I wish Amia took that route too, because I've seen it work better.

I would love to see it implimented, and mind pming me the server name?

Sorry Angel but if Monster races became permadeath and PvP on sight then they would never become high enough level to become any type of threat. You need to give them the same chance as others to grow, learn, develop and become the same level of a threat as those they would rob, enslave, or kill.

Phearnun, Godo is a part of the bucktooth tribe as well as a servant to the UD female drow. At the moment, until I can figure out why my graphics isn’t working in the UD and a few other areas, he can no go to the UD to get instructions from his mistresses that can so easily command him. The bucktooths are not around as much lately and the tribe hasn’t been able to grow, as it should because most find it a lonely life playing a evil Goblin.

Godo has recently and through RP became less cowardly, once he cut the red braided hair off a elf he became more brave with it in his possession, red hair holds power for him, as delusional as that may be. He also holds a loyalty to the another group that when it reestablishes itself may even one day break him from his mental bonds to the drow females. All needs done in RP and over time, time that could not happen if monster races were indeed PvP on sight with permadeath.

PvP on sight to me is not as much a problem for me, as long as those who wish to do so also accepts PvP on sight with their own characters. I believe I made a huge error with Godo from the start. Me allowing Godo to be caught, killed or chased away so easily and so often has gotten most to believe that’s the way he should stay. Now, with his good luck charm of the braided hair, when he stands his ground and fights back to kill it makes many others angry that always took Godo as a cowardly Goblin that’s of no concern.

You dont need to explain your character to anyone.

As for what iron suggests I think he much like myself would rather see a more realistic setting. Which amia with its history is not.

Goblins do however work in a pack mentality, you dont useually find just one all alone in the middle of nowhere.

Iron...I don't think you understand...

I AGREE with you 100%.

I play a villain. I want to be considered a monster race......IF and only IF I am allowed to actually act like one(meaning I shouldn't have to give outs).

You make it look like I cry whenever I get dropped and that's not the case. Usually it's the reverse. After I fell someone I wait the customary two minutes before some OOC dribble pops up and I have to explain crap to a DM.

However I do get upset with meaningless things when I do die or am felled. These things are limited to only a very few instances that truly upset me:

1. Getting really stupid emoted trash that I cannot respond to like *eats head*, *eats a body part*, *does something horrible that makes it almost inpossible to live, return to do evil deeds, and merely piss me off as a player cause it's frankly stupid*. Most of the time tis dribble is thrust into my face before I even get to respond.

2. PvP "outs". They are a bane for an evil character...period. If a goody player does it it's fine. If I try to pull the same stunt I am practically blackballed or attacked, or forced to be held(not really happened yet...but I see it as an option)

3. Hours long torture sessions to which all my participation resorts to screaming and nothing else. Hate these most of all. It screams "I care little for you playerwise as I will spend many hours torturing your character while you say and do nothing". LAME.

Now...mind you that the whole good versus bad thing snowballed into what you have before you: Evil paladins, good goblins, inevitable //blah blah whine whine, not fair, no out, //blah blah, he should be my prisoner and I should have my way with him...

I have seen and heard and read this all MANY times and it gets more sickening everytime I hear it.

This is what happened in a nutshell:
Bad guys acted bad. Good guys cried. Bad guys were forced to follow rules that tied their hands. Bad guys lost all the time. Bad guys cried. Bad guys left or turned good. Good guys mistreated bad guys that are now good guys. Good guys became bad guys. Bad guys cried that good guys aren't good. Bad guys left.

So simply put: If you want bad guys...let them be actually bad..it'll give the good guys something to aspire to be better than, instead of simply being bad themselves and ruining the immersion of the RP and the game itself.

.....Just NO.

Thanks for the informative and very helpful post.

Hey, here's a good question:

If you got nothing even remotely worthwhile to say....why post anything at all? Need attention?

Anyhow this discussion(like most actually needful discussions) has degraded once again into unneccesary one liners and obviously personal jabs.

Anyhow I will RP how I RP and you will RP how you want.

But I've posted enough on these sort of topics.

P.S. One liner posters should all die of anal cancer for their needless and usually disrespectful bullcrap(excepting DMs who give short and sweet answers like "yes" and "no")

Oh, I was referring specifically to the paladin matter. The fact that the objectivity and absoluteness of Good and Evil can be accepted, but that it doesn't exclude the uniqueness of each situation. Something can be absolutely evil, but it doesn't mean every action of the same vague category in every possible situation committed by anyone is similarly absolutely evil. It's not about point of view, but about the fact that a person on a battle field is in a different situation than a person finding a goblin baby abandoned at their doorstep in peace time, for example. The point being, you can't make aprioric judgements, that is, judgements independent of experience and oblivious to the specific situation, about alignment. Every action is unique, and therefore you can only classify similar actions into vague categories (like "communication" and more specifically "slander" and "preaching", or "killing" and more specifically "assassination" and "execution"), and while some categories contain typically Good or Evil actions, you can't know for sure about an individual action before you know the details.

The monster race and cry-baby comments weren't aimed at you or anyone specific, just the general atmosphere of Amia. Which isn't bad overall, but in this aspect is counter-productive to cool monster PCs.

It takes far more creativity to both play a monster and deal with OOC constructs which exist on Amia. They are there to keep player behavior in line.

It is also not just an 'evil' or monster issue I assure you. Some good aligned PC's are also kneecapped by the ruling from how they would behave. You just have to act with suspension of disbelief. Chalk it up to something the persistent world you play in utilizes as a kludge to keep the environment the best it can. Gloss over it, or try to find a way out of it in RP. If you find yourself unable to do so when it is required then I would suggest that perhaps playing certain archetypes is not for you.

ok i'll be the person who says it. how many of you that say monster races should be all these things or should be platinum have -played- a monster PC. IE goblin ogrillon hobgoblin an such and not just drow and RDDs which many don't treat as monsters.

EDIT: i'll make my point again. people make claims as to how monster PCs should be played while they go around playing their drow and RDDs. characters on amia right now don't see them racism they hold it against monster PCs because we've been more active. when drow and dragon kin are more atcive again then characters will be racist against them. and then more cute little kobolds and goblins willl pop up untill racism against them starts back up. it's a cycle and not much about we can do. all i'm seeing on this thread now is people argueing about paladins.

Why don't you just state your point instead of getting the inevitable "Why yes, I have, so I am in fact entitled to say this" that you're gonig to get? Saves you the posting time and gets your point across a lot clearer too.

any chance the DMs will go and discuss/vote on making monstrous races exempt from PvP rules (allow them to attack/be attacked on sight) outside of tolerant cities like cordor?

blackvswhite wrote:

any chance the DMs will go and discuss/vote on making monstrous races exempt from PvP rules (allow them to attack/be attacked on sight) outside of tolerant cities like cordor?

I would TOTALY Play a monster race then! I want to be hacked to bits!

Dunno. I (speaking for myself) am not too keen on exempting any group from any rule.

Hum. Would it be tolerated to lets say ... Write an OCC Tag in your bio; where it says "You are entitled to kill me upon sight, because blabla im a monster"?

Or would it be against rules?

If you want to do that yourself it's fine. But that means you pretty much waive all right to complain in any PvP, at all. Just be aware.

TormakSaber wrote:

If you want to do that yourself it's fine. But that means you pretty much waive all right to complain in any PvP, at all. Just be aware.

I would be glad to stuff an orange down my throat every time i'm about to moan about the PvP Outcome. It has happened far to often, imo.

::Edit:: No bananas; Let's say oranges. I think of other weird things when i say bananas.

Tomak is absolutely correct. To allow one single group to set aside the rules for will only opt in other groups. Having Goblins to be KoS or attack others on sight would just get the DMs flooded with the “we are evil and would kill anyone not of our race” asking for the same thing. The being attacked on sight I can see as okay except for one main problem, the instant kills and things like bigbies that would not allow for the monster race to even have a chance at all. Now if players could control themselves and perhaps shoot an arrow or two so the other may try and run away or be foolish enough to stand their ground then fine, but since when can the majority control themselves.

Soooo...

If people WANT the "I'm a monster, jump on me" thing, get together. Make a group. PUT that in your bios.

Hell, it might be fun. I'm just saying.

Godo wrote:

Tomak is absolutely correct. To allow one single group to set aside the rules for will only opt in other groups. Having Goblins to be KoS or attack others on sight would just get the DMs flooded with the “we are evil and would kill anyone not of our race” asking for the same thing. The being attacked on sight I can see as okay except for one main problem, the instant kills and things like bigbies that would not allow for the monster race to even have a chance at all. Now if players could control themselves and perhaps shoot an arrow or two so the other may try and run away or be foolish enough to stand their ground then fine, but since when can the majority control themselves.

The only reason the rules are in place to prevent that is that you had dumb arses in the past who abused it. In over 4 years I still find it rediculous that you simply cannot kill a Gobo or Kobold PC for being "evil" in case you might hurt the player's feelings. Some people need several table spoons of cement to harden up. Uncommon sense is screaming in your face "you're not cuddly. Man up or play a Lesbian!"

The worst side effect of that rule is the encouragement factor for "evil" races to act as cuddly muffins and have swarms of otherwise "good" folk protect them when someone gets a little nasty towards them. Its a shame that the Underdark playerbase isn't that large, and as a side effect Gobos and Kobold players go above ground. I'm happy to encourage feral monstrous PCs.. but my timezone isn't good for matching with people.

cuddly? no! these are MONSTER RACES. they aren't meant to be part of regular society.

Eh, it should obviously go both ways - free to attack and be attacked on sight.

But it won't work with monsters freely playable, anyhow. The very first thing you'd need to do is restrict monsters to DM approval, check that existing PCs are played maturely enough, and then start approving a new goblin/kobold playerbase who know what's expected of them, know better than to grief, and are willing to ultimately permakill their PCs. I'm just pipedreaming: if we were to make them villains, we'd have to overhaul the whole system.

IronAngel wrote:

if we were to make them villains, we'd have to overhaul the whole system.

Overhauling the system, as awesome as it would be, won't work without overhauling the players first. There are already options in place to encourage more vicious kobolds, more vicious Goblins and more feral Underdark races. There's an entire Underdark on B which accomodates leveling up to 10 easily... however its the players who are at fault for not going the extra step.

The biggest issue is segregation. I've hammered this many times on many occasions. Monstrous races, even at the height of the "kobold fad" are a minority of the playerbase and they all want their own racial areas. You've got the Brokentooth caves, the Kobold caves, the Underdark which has its own forms of segregation, Underport, Kampos... too few a players spread too thinly. Sure, I understand that Monsters don't get along but that's just a fact that you need to consider; its part of being a monster. The stronger you are, the more power you hold. Cram them all in one place like Cordor does with all other races and you have an instant RP hub, an encouraging point for monstrous races.

If monstrous players are unwilling to bend the rules and although retaining their racial animosity, coordinate with each other to some degree, you'll see results far quicker then you would if you made a huge system overhaul.

I know it could never happen or if it did, it would be a scripter's nightmare, but how awesome would it be if a kobold PC could roam the kobold caverns without worrying about being attacked by their "brethren"? Some group is grinding through the kobolds and all of the sudden, one of them doesn't die as easily and, in fact, takes out most of the group... I know it's prone to griefing and I'm living in the same pipe as Iron, but that would be so cool.

Is that really too hard to do? Couldn’t some widget be made to align the Goblin, kobold, or whatever PC to the NPCs factions?

It's not worth it, nor the problems it would cause. YHou would be hostile to every single NPC that currently looks "Friendly" to you. That means: you walk into Brokentooth Cave, or Kampos, or Lobsul, and you get mobbed.

The problem I have found in any rpg computer or p&p based is if someone wants to play a non-standard type of PC like a monster race orc, ogre or what have you that some player then expect ever other regular PC to in effect meta game by not beign immediately hostile to the monster PC. When I say meta game let me give an example.

Bob the Paladin (played by George) is wandering about in the wilderness looking for evil types to smush because hes a paladin and they can not abide evil (they will not at peril of loosing paladin status work with someone they know to be of evil alignment) So Bob stumbles upon a small patrol of Orcs, Bob swiftly dispatches the patrol as he has a number of years of dealing with their kind and has fought them many times.

In triumph he returns to the local village to inform the village elders of his deeds, on entering the market place he immidiately notices that there is a large circle of town folk surrounding a lone armed Orc (a PC played by David) eyeing the crowd coldly with tusks bared and sword/axe/hammer in hand

What is Bob the Paladins first reaction?
George knows its a PC played by someone like him who has bought and paid for a roleplay game and is currently sitting like him in his home wanting to have some computer based rpg fun.
However to Bob the paladin its an Orc in his village threatening his common folk with word (monster PCs in my limited experience only having met a dozen or so) and manner (armed to the teeth)

George can metagame the fact that he knows its a PC and not an NPC Orc and suddenly be over come with the spirit of peace and benefit of the doubt and all that, which seems to be expected by some monster players so as to allow them to RP an enemy faction as a PC. Or does George stick to his roleplaying his own character and immidately draw weapons and attack the Orc in his domain?

From my own experience I have been on the receiving end of several monster race PCs who bowled about town and the surrounds armed to the teeth insulting and verbally attacking everone they met knowing that many normal race PCs will eventually tried to accomodate them inspite of the insults and arrogant demeanor of the monster PC simply because they know its a PC.

One of several examples from recent experience.

1) A Kobold PC loitering in the temple in East Cordor, I was on my CG lvl 4 (archer2/cleric2) Female elf ranger looking pc (not a ranger by class but dressed in the greens and browns like a ranger for IC reasons). It was my first encounter with a monster PC on this server and my first instinct was to have my PC attack the damn thing having just returned from the Kobold caves carrying much loot taken from their bloody dismembered bodies and so IC my Elf was not feeling particularly "benefit of the doubt" towards Kobolds in particular at this point.
However the meta gaming impulse kicked in as it was a monster PC, and so instead of plugging it with arrows as would have been much more IC I merely exhibited surprise IC with "eeek, a Kobold in the temple!" in chat as a metagamed opening for RP with this Kobold. The Kobold PC response was to turn to face my Elf and suggested that she was a harlot by the way she was dressed........

Well where did that leave me IC? Having used up my small store of metagaming tolerance I immediately un-sheathed my sword and advanced on but did not attack the Kobold, I can't remember word for word the exchange we had but I was trying RP an angry well armed Elf woman fighter on the verge of violence after being quite insulted by an individual whose race is by default KoS (kill on sight) and in a holy temple for added salt to the wound. And the counter PR from the Kobold PC was to hold his ground (unlike the cowardly race from which he comes but meh) and continue to insult the Elf IC. As if daring me to attack and risk arrest and punishment etc.

Very soon I just left that Kobold alone its IC responses got more metagamey and OOC it made me very angry.

Ill end it on this note as the post is quite long now, If a player wishes to RP a monster race living in and around humans and Elfs and Dwarfs etc I think first of well why is this monster not with its kin reaping and burning or whatever.
What IC reasons have drove this monster from his home and lands and culture to live with the "enemy" races (from the PC monster's race point of view)
Would not common sense and survival dictate that regardless of what is privately thought about those around you any hostile PC monster or other would not wear their hostility on their sleeve by walking around threatening and insulting everyone they meet knowing OOC that they are more or less safe (after a fashion) from consequences of their actions.

Its a complex job I think playing a monster race PC the monster PC will by default be KoS to most normal race PCs just because of his race even if he is not being overtly hostile or aggressive.
But I think the duty of earning IC benefit of the doubt rests with the monster PC, in my honest opinion its not good RP to run around beating your IC chest (so to speak) because you are playing a hostile PC remember in D&D worlds many people are armed with several pounds of metal shaped into various harmful forms and also magic, insults may result in attack and injury and death IC even if OOC a PC knows he can take a blow because he has XYZ hit points.

That is ...a problem.

Yes - I have felt the exact thing. And i ...just got annoyed... that people would NOT ATTACK ME!
So i stopped playing my kobold.

How can this be corrected though without many players getting upset? I personally do not mind being attacked because of being a Goblin, being attacked with instant death and not even having a chance does bother me though.

KoS to the monster races like goblins and such would not be so bad as long as it goes both ways, the problem with this is there would be a huge PvP feast all the time or until no one decides to play a monster race anymore. Its hard for even the normal races to get to the levels they need to defend themselves from other PCs out alone if the monster race had to deal with KoS everywhere that they go. An elf can party up easily with a human, hin, or any of the other races but a Kobold and other monster races are more limited to that since most of the monster races are hostile even to each other.

I agree it is a problem for the IC reactions but I can not see how it can be fixed so as not to have the player base upset all the time.

Godo wrote:

How can this be corrected though without many players getting upset? I personally do not mind being attacked because of being a Goblin, being attacked with instant death and not even having a chance does bother me though.

KoS to the monster races like goblins and such would not be so bad as long as it goes both ways, the problem with this is there would be a huge PvP feast all the time or until no one decides to play a monster race anymore. Its hard for even the normal races to get to the levels they need to defend themselves from other PCs out alone if the monster race had to deal with KoS everywhere that they go. An elf can party up easily with a human, hin, or any of the other races but a Kobold and other monster races are more limited to that since most of the monster races are hostile even to each other.

I agree it is a problem for the IC reactions but I can not see how it can be fixed so as not to have the player base upset all the time.

As I said the problem is its total meta gaming to expect for example a PC paladin to truck in any way shape or form with an evil Orc PC just because he is a PC.
Such is the life of a PC who wants to play an a PC from an enemy faction. The burden of generating IC reasons why they should be not attacked let alone tolerated is up to the monster/evil player in my view. It is they who are choosing to play against the grain so to speak by choosing a non-standard player race and/or an evil alignment.

To use role reversal if this were a game primarily of Orc and Goblin types and in the Orc capital of "Orcaorcastan" a human paladin turned up in the market place looking for a group what is the probably reaction to him going to be by the vast majority of the Orcs and others there.
Its highly unlikely that they are going to even let him in near the city without conflict let along let him into the market place...Its just not going to happen, but what some players want is for any Orc PCs to metagame by treating this human PC different to any other human NPC simply because its a PC. And the flaw in this are obvious I believe.

I for one am tired as I have mentioned else where of the number of evil/mean/monster PCs blundering about the area being stupidly overtly hostile and aggresive. If your in the land of your racial enemies but you do not wish to be their enemy personally in my view the PC needs to think long and hard about how much over of a superiority complex hes going to RP and ram down everyones throat.

I have had this alot in P&P games and its has disrupted RL friendships because having someone take the pee out of you is not a nice thing. And over the top generic hostile RP that makes no sense other than as metagaming can not be excused as "RP" If you are alone in a realm of possible enemies shouldnt you act like it...unless you have a death wish.

No place for a monster race

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