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Gunz
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 Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 13:53 PM |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Fanaticism certainly isn't evil. It can be, but it isn't all on it's own.
It's pretty unfair to call fanaticism stupid though. Sure, you may not like it, but it's real and it exists both in Amia and in real life from all types of people. I can't stand racist people in real life but I love seeing that it's alive in Amia because it makes it real, for example. What you hate in real life coming to life on Amia makes Amia all the more realistic.
Paladins aren't the only people who carry themselves with zeal, anyone can; Clerics, Druids, Monks, Champions, Blackguards and anyone else really. It's a personality trait, not a good vs. evil trait. The EO was run by a very zealous leader in Sharina, The Grove has been run by very zealous Arch Druids in the past, etc. Frankly, I like zeal to be something that is seen often enough within churches because it makes them feel real. Orthodoxy in religion is just as important, in not more so, than liberal interpretations and orthodox people tend to be more fanatical. I know my main is a bit of a zealot.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:11 PM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Understandable....except when that same zealotry and fanaticism cause one to disregard life and law...at which point said player should be required to go neutral..
Neutral zealots.....meh....very sketchy...as evil and good are defined by ACTIONS...not thoughts.
You can be a zealot and not be murderous. A zealous Ilmaterite priest will be highly scarred and will never hurt anyone else but themselves.
When you become a murderous zealot..regardless of your inner thoughts...which mean nothing in NWN terms of good and evil...you should be dropped a few points on the alignment scale.
Furthermore there are NO murderous zealot paladins. The words "Lawful" and escpecially "Good", are supposed to prevent that.
*edited for an example* A lawful good paladin comes along a hurt Necromancer who has shown no real foul intent and is unarmed and nondangerous. The paladin can do several things:
Good things:
Heal the Necro(goodly folks are very known for helping a bad guy live...even if the paladin doesn't aid the necros plots. It waht makes the good person...a better person).
Not be able to harm the Necro, knowing he's unarmed and a paladin would not strike a man whilst he is down.
Not hit if it's a female(AKA...some modicum of chivalry)
Neutral things: Leave him to die. Not get involved. Finish the job quickly(if he's in death throes).
Evil things: Add salt to the wound. Laugh about it. Torture the necro while he's down. ANY form of torture..period. Kill the Necro..knowing he could survive his wounds.
BTW a fanatic druid should be an enemy of every single civilized area....since a fanatic druid means they'd wish Nature to be abundant. Those druids you say are so fanatical have not once tried to attempt to attack a single city by producing some overgrowth of Nature....Something I always wanted to see. So those you call fanatics are not so fanatic except PvP against a race or faction, but not as a druid would normally act....who disgusts civilized areas where the forest was cleared out for some cement city like Cordor....but this ALL my own opinion.
Last edited by Geld Yaztran on Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:24 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Gunz
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Geld Yaztran wrote: Understandable....except when that same zealotry and fanaticism cause one to disregard life and law...at which point said player should be required to go neutral..
Neutral zealots.....meh....very sketchy...as evil and good are defined by ACTIONS...not thoughts. That depends on circumstances. A good zealot can have no regard for the life of their enemy and remain good. A Paladin striking down Devils or evil-doers would probably feel great about it. He's doing the world a good deed in his eyes after all. Neutrals can very much so be driven by actions, btw (see common druid). Geld Yaztran wrote: You can be a zealot and not be murderous. A zealous Ilmaterite priest will be highly scarred and will never hurt anyone else but themselves. That's not at all true. Sure, a zealot who interprets things that way can take it to the extreme but think of Companions of Noble Heart. Those guys are kinda brutal in their defense of the Ilmatari church and dogma. Geld Yaztran wrote: When you become a murderous zealot..regardless of your inner thoughts...which mean nothing in NWN terms of good and evil...you should be dropped a few points on the alignment scale.
Furthermore there are NO murderous zealot paladins. The words "Lawful" and escpecially "Good", are supposed to prevent that. I refer you back to my first point here. You have to look at the context first.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:29 PM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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ALL your arguements are based off thoughts however....and as discussed, in NWN actions supercede thoughts in the matter of good and evil.
And no, a paladin cannot have no regard for the life of their enemies and still be good. Having no regard for life, even of enemies, is the very ESSENCE of evil.
Demons and undead are not technically living BTW...so yes...a paladin can strike them down and smile about it.....living creatures? Not so easily done.
I swear I want to make a paladin to actually show some players what being a goodly folk actually entails...instead of them skewing the whole idea of goodly knights with their own thoughts...
What we should have is simply a list of actions that no matter what could be regarded as Good, Evil or Neutral and thoe who commit those acts get docked or added alignment points.
Examples of evil actions that no matter how you paint them...are evil:
1. Rape
2. Torture
3. Disregard of Life
4. Murder(not to be confused with self defense or defense of another)
5. Enjoying any of the above
Last edited by Geld Yaztran on Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:33 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Yurell
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Geld Yaztran wrote: Demons and undead are not technically living BTW...so yes...a paladin can strike them down and smile about it.....living creatures? Not so easily done. Demons are living creatures, hence why they can be returned to life with True Resurrection. Edit: As for #3, it would depend upon whose life you're showing no regard. A demon? A chromatic dragon?
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
Last edited by Yurell on Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:35 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Gunz
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:32 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Demons are very much so alive, as are Devils.
The idea of "good" is different to different people so you'd just be another person interpreting it with his own thoughts, like everyone else.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:39 PM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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As for demons and devils, well they are actual embodiments of living evil then.
Goblins, kobolds, and even Necromancers...are not.
Anyone who tells me it's okay for a paladin to torture and slaughter a new born gobo is full of crap....even if said paladin "Thinks" it's good...
So NO...even though it seems that good and evil are purely points of view...they are not...or at least...not the point of view of single individuals rather than a concensus.
*edited* In terms of torture tactics and goodly/neutral factions: I laugh at the attempts. Once a character has been constantly run through many torture scenarios with the Drow.....almost any form of torture from anything more goodly than that is a joke.
Last edited by Geld Yaztran on Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:48 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Gunz
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:46 PM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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I never said a Paladin would kill a newborn, you did. All I'm saying is that it all depends on the context. A Paladin can have a disregard to certain life and remain a Paladin. I'm not talking about a Paladin that slays whatever he likes for any reason he likes or anything like that.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Godo
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:52 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Aug 2009
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I want to thank all of you who have posted here, it’s been a huge help for me. At first I thought perhaps I made a thread that shouldn’t have been made but now I see how well the players responded and all the great advice I have gotten, thank you all.
As far as entering the cities, that is not what I want actually. Godo not being allowed in most cities I accept and welcome actually, even being unwelcome in the forest I also accept. My main concern however is the fast end to any RP with Godo in these areas, the quick instant death magic, the fast removal of him without a chance to find a way for Godo to remain in the area and have some fun one way or the other.
I understand how annoying Godo can be and how much he can be hated, but that is what this goblin is meant to be like. Instead of finding a way to tolerate him or even to manipulate Godo by understanding the goblin he is quickly set aside, killed, or removed in one fashion or another. There are several players that understand and know how to distract the goblin and/or manipulate him by understanding his motivations.
Even when PvP breaks out why is there a need to end it as fast as possible with things like death magic’s or bigbies/killing? Remember this if you can, conflicts do not have to go into PvP, PvP doesn’t have to always end in death, and death doesn’t have to end the RP.
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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For demons and devils I concede...a paladin can disregard their lives.
I'm talking about creatures not from demonic/devilish planes...you know...PC races.
That's why the paladin often kills even the friendly goblin.....it's not the paladin that's bad....it's the player behind the screen who wants PvP and pretends to be a goodly paladin...and rp's it badly.
I agree with Godo 100%. I myself tried to emote or speak and get KD'd and attacked immediately..now to the point where i must strike first and fast before they do...at which point they go OOC, whine and then DM intervention ensues...which I hate because I feel the DMs have better things to do like fixing and improving the server which we all play on....not to mention attempting to grant us players those things we wish.
P.S. This scenario of "quickdraw, death, followed by OOC dribble" is a scenario I encounter more times then I like to admit. It has become so "wash, rinse, repeat", that I now dread PvP at almost every level..and everytime I finish(if I win) I wait a few moments for the inevitable "//Blah, blah, blah, rule lawyering, cry for a DM" nonsense.
Everytime I lose I expect the inevitable hours of torturous "Corpse following around routine/ multiple hours torture sessions where I sit and wait whilst they think up something imaginative(yet to have found anything remotely unique), and/or, my personal favorite...body mutilation with no point, story, depth, or anything to emote a reaction to."
Last edited by Geld Yaztran on Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Craig deathwalker
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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Geld Yaztran wrote: As for demons and devils, well they are actual embodiments of living evil then.
Goblins, kobolds, and even Necromancers...are not.
Anyone who tells me it's okay for a paladin to torture and slaughter a new born gobo is full of crap....even if said paladin "Thinks" it's good...
So NO...even though it seems that good and evil are purely points of view...they are not...or at least...not the point of view of single individuals rather than a concensus.
*edited* In terms of torture tactics and goodly/neutral factions: I laugh at the attempts. Once a character has been constantly run through many torture scenarios with the Drow.....almost any form of torture from anything more goodly than that is a joke. To be honest I can see a paladin killing a new born goblin, much like they would kill a new born mouse. They are pest's that cause harm, and every so often need exterminated. _________________ 
Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM
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Mobile_Svensk
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
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Works other way around to. A goblin that kills a human because they know humans hunt goblins.
I wonder if there exists goblin paladins...
_________________
Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 14:57 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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You accept the consquences of the choices you make, be it to be evil, or be it to be good.
You wanna be a good goblin? Except to be made fun of. You wanna be an evil goblin? Expect to be kicked out of everywhere.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:06 PM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Which begs the question....How evil can anything be when every character gets an out?
Can we attack you simply because we are evil? Guess what? NO.
Why should goodly people be allowed to do what actually makes an evil being well...evil? Attacking with no reason at all..but because I am what I am and you are what you are?
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Craig deathwalker
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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Very_Svensk wrote: Works other way around to. A goblin that kills a human because they know humans hunt goblins.
I wonder if there exists goblin paladins... I fail to see your arguement, im talking about a bogstandard paladin logic from my view vs the bogstandard goblin. You know the ones we see in the frontier? By nature they are not friendly to humans. A good goblin, with intelligence is a huge exception, just because we see alot of them on amia does not make them standard. The realistic view here is that goblins are monsters, are disliked, and will be killed by a blackgaurd seeking twisted entertainment or a paladin protecting the weak. The paladin will not stop and look at each goblin and think " Should I give them a chance" Because he knows that they will grow up to be just like the others, its a fact of like. Just how you know when you look at a newborn mouse that its going to grow up and breed and cause you a big ass problem. _________________
Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Geld Yaztran wrote: Which begs the question....How evil can anything be when every character gets an out?
Can we attack you simply because we are evil? Guess what? NO.
Why should goodly people be allowed to do what actually makes an evil being well...evil? Attacking with no reason at all..but because I am what I am and you are what you are? I believe thats an entirely different discussion that doesn't just include evil or good getting outs but much more. Probably better to be saved for another thread, should you wish to discuss it.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
Last edited by Selvec Darkon on Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:29 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Godo
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 26 Aug 2009
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Remember though that most evil, like Goblins, does not see themselves as evil. Goblins look at other races as bullies, something to hate and despise. The so-called monsters see the humans, elves, etc. as monsters.
As a paladin would kill a newborn goblin knowing they will grow and cause trouble, the goblin would slay a newborn human knowing it will grow up to hunt and bully them, one is called doing good as the other is called being evil. It’s a matter of perception, society and the way the different races think.
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Merrien
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:30 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas
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Craig deathwalker wrote: Very_Svensk wrote: Works other way around to. A goblin that kills a human because they know humans hunt goblins.
I wonder if there exists goblin paladins... I fail to see your arguement, im talking about a bogstandard paladin logic from my view vs the bogstandard goblin. You know the ones we see in the frontier? By nature they are not friendly to humans. A good goblin, with intelligence is a huge exception, just because we see alot of them on amia does not make them standard. The realistic view here is that goblins are monsters, are disliked, and will be killed by a blackgaurd seeking twisted entertainment or a paladin protecting the weak. The paladin will not stop and look at each goblin and think " Should I give them a chance" Because he knows that they will grow up to be just like the others, its a fact of like. Just how you know when you look at a newborn mouse that its going to grow up and breed and cause you a big ass problem. I have a catch and release policy on mice, personally. ...Is also why I won't play a monster race, I don't have the stomach for cruelty, IC or OOC. I don't mind if people take exception to my "lawful stupid" label... I know that I personally tend towards neutral/chaotic good, lol, so in comes personal biases. But I do think a knee-jerk kill reaction, while it may be realistic to an extent, needs to be modified slightly considering ooc player fun. Is that "meta-gaming" or something like that? To a small degree, I'd concede that point. But the reality of it all is this is a game, so there are some modifications that I think are a natural consequence to OOC player fun. That does not give monster players or evil players license to then be the true "chaotic stupid," but there is a middle ground here that has to be remembered. That's my point really.... middle ground, moderation... find other ways to be IC without killing OOC fun. _________________ 
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 15:35 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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You don't get to kill someone because they are a monster race, them's are the PvP rules, it applies to all races and alignments. You must give an IC out for the person. Heck even in open warfare thats acknowledged by everyone on the server, you still have to give outs, unless it agreed by both sides to not give outs, and the DM's are informed of this.
Monster Race or Not, Evil or Good, an IC out is required. If an issue exists with that, then it's an issue you have with the rules and pvp, in which case you need to take your problem to a DM. Who will probably tell you that thems are the rules, and thats that.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Merrien
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 16:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas
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Selvec Darkon wrote: You don't get to kill someone because they are a monster race, them's are the PvP rules, it applies to all races and alignments. You must give an IC out for the person. Heck even in open warfare thats acknowledged by everyone on the server, you still have to give outs, unless it agreed by both sides to not give outs, and the DM's are informed of this.
Monster Race or Not, Evil or Good, an IC out is required. If an issue exists with that, then it's an issue you have with the rules and pvp, in which case you need to take your problem to a DM. Who will probably tell you that thems are the rules, and thats that. Thanks for the reminder. . . a good place for it. _________________
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Thu, Apr 15 2010, 17:43 PM |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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I've spent my time on the server playing a kobold, or... perhaps I should say un-kobold since his behavior patterns aren't very kobold-like. However, I can certainly see the disincentives to playing a classic monstrous LE kobold. I really haven't seen a lot of other players who persistently play kobolds, there are few players playing monsters all around.
If there's one thing I'd say I dislike, it would be being alone. Having no other players (or DMs) to RP with severely puts a damper on the fun factor. NPCs can only do so much for someone. I'd rather not spend my time just lounging around a place that no one comes to. Take the kobold caves in the quagmires for example, except for pre-arranged, private matters, I don't think I've *ever* seen another kobold down there. In short, being all alone can get boring very quickly.
And this is something I've seen from RP in Cordor, with other kobolds. They end up being thrown out of towns, having no one else to turn to. And once this is done, they get bored and stop playing. This, is quite a problem.
Now from what I see, some evil factions can get banned from lots of places and still have a good base of players to RP with, like the Banites. They have each other, and there's enough of them to create a good environment from what I see. This is not true for monster characters, there are the Buck-Tooths but I rarely see many on. There are even fewer kobolds, and I don't believe I've seen many hobgoblins, or orcs, etc either. They probably fall into this trap as well.
And the monster groups don't get along either, kobolds and goblins hate each other with a passion. This is also likely true for other monsters as well, orcs tend to be nothing more than bullies to goblins, etc, so these groups are all at each other's throats. This means that again, players can fall into the loneliness trap. It's a shame because I really miss the conflict RP I've been having with Godo, Maggot, and the other Buck-Tooths who really want to cut Kurchin's tail off.
If there were a strong player-base for the various monster groups, it might be different. However, I find that this isn't the case. And when they're all alone, they stop playing.
_________________ I play: 
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ainjyll
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 4:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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I think Iron and I have had a discussion before about just how Amia should interpret good and evil. You have two types of ways to interpret alignment. One is absolute and the other is subjective. Subjectively, a paladin can kill a newborn baby if it falls within the code of his god, which is also subject to where he was raised, etc. However, Amia doesn't function on that level. The killing of a defenseless newborn is an evil act. Even if that newborn is a goblin, it doesn't really matter. That newborn goblin could be the goblin that leads other goblins away from their evil tendencies and towards a just and good life, the paladin doesn't know.
If I'm not mistaken, all demons and devils are absolute to the alignments of the planes they come from. So, there is no salvation for them and should be killed at any chance.
RP'ing a paladin is not an easy job. I'm a firm believer that if we had enough DM's to watch every player with paladin levels, we'd see almost every paladin with a nice big fallen widget in their inventory. A paladin's code is not easy to follow, not for the character and not for the player. It's not supposed to be easy, paladins get vast amounts of power... and with power comes responsibility.
_________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 7:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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If the baby Goblin is evil the Paladin won't fall for killing it. If it's good, the paladin probably still won't fall because he didn't know and it's still a goblin.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 7:34 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Genocide is an acceptable way to do things in FR. Well, I suppose it would be Xenocide, but the principle is the same.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 8:04 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, if the baby was alone, crying and helpless, I bet some paladins would fall. Depending on situation and the paladin's code, of course. It's not enough that someone's evil to condemn them to death. Contrary to what Geld is saying, evil isn't about actions. You can surely be evil without ever having done anything evil. I'm not sure why you'd say genocide is acceptable as such; just because players like to interpret it so for ease doesn't mean there's any canon references to imply so. Sure, you might slaughter hordes of orcs without a second thought out in the wild, because you're at war. But I'm fairly sure a paladin would Fall for locking the orcs up in concentration camps and executing them without trial or evidence of their crimes.
It's not so much about subjectivity vs. absolute alignment. It is that the act "killing" doesn't necessarily have an alignment in itself, or that the final alignment of an action is only determined after all factors are considered. That's why you can't make alignment judgements a priori: the judgement is not subjective, and the action really does have an objective alignment value, but you couldn't know it without knowing all the individual factors of the unique situation. You couldn't say "killing is evil" without considering the kind of killing: your body is killing bacteria all the time, and you're stepping on insects. Yet you don't Fall.
Because each situation is different, it is perfectly consistent to say that sometimes killing a goblin baby is objectively evil, and other times it isn't.
As for monster PCs: It would be good that they started as a group and played together, instead of soloing it. They should be the feared bandits of the wild, acceptable to kill on sight. I'd rather monster races were made plat. coin and intended to be a PvP faction at war with everyone else, instead of what they are now.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 11:16 AM |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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IronAngel wrote: As for monster PCs: It would be good that they started as a group and played together, instead of soloing it. They should be the feared bandits of the wild, acceptable to kill on sight. I'd rather monster races were made plat. coin and intended to be a PvP faction at war with everyone else, instead of what they are now. If this is done, then they probably wouldn't see any use at all. They already don't attract much interest, adding restrictions and would only cause disincentives to play, not incentives. And if they were made easy PvP targets, I'd imagine they'd end up just avoiding the rest of the player-base entirely. _________________ I play:
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 11:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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The1Kobra wrote: IronAngel wrote: As for monster PCs: It would be good that they started as a group and played together, instead of soloing it. They should be the feared bandits of the wild, acceptable to kill on sight. I'd rather monster races were made plat. coin and intended to be a PvP faction at war with everyone else, instead of what they are now. If this is done, then they probably wouldn't see any use at all. They already don't attract much interest, adding restrictions and would only cause disincentives to play, not incentives. And if they were made easy PvP targets, I'd imagine they'd end up just avoiding the rest of the player-base entirely. Disincentives to play help remove ill-though characters, though. People don't necessarily want to see Celia the Pink, Braided Gnoll on every street corner. Adding requests to races that should be rare as PC races (at least in the eyes of the proponent) has the desirable outcome of making them rare.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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ainjyll
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 12:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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The1Kobra wrote: If this is done, then they probably wouldn't see any use at all. They already don't attract much interest, adding restrictions and would only cause disincentives to play, not incentives. And if they were made easy PvP targets, I'd imagine they'd end up just avoiding the rest of the player-base entirely. Isn't that kinda what they should be doing anyways? They are monster races after all. They're supposed to slink behind trees and avoid groups that they know are more powerful than they are. Kobolds and goblins may be stinky, nasty savages, but they're not homicidal and (nothing against those that RP their monster PC's this way, of course) they're not supposed to be cuddly and cute, in my opinion. _________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 12:34 PM |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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ainjyll wrote: Isn't that kinda what they should be doing anyways? They are monster races after all. They're supposed to slink behind trees and avoid groups that they know are more powerful than they are. Kobolds and goblins may be stinky, nasty savages, but they're not homicidal and (nothing against those that RP their monster PC's this way, of course) they're not supposed to be cuddly and cute, in my opinion. Well, if they avoid the rest of the players, then they end up RPing with themselves only, which causes the player to get bored and play something else. This isn't conducive to making people play kobolds or goblins, which is the problem in the first place. That's what I was trying to get at when I was talking about the 'loneliness trap' in my previous post. Yurell wrote: Disincentives to play help remove ill-though characters, though. People don't necessarily want to see Celia the Pink, Braided Gnoll on every street corner. Adding requests to races that should be rare as PC races (at least in the eyes of the proponent) has the desirable outcome of making them rare. The logic of restricting their use and making them free PvP targets doesn't coincide well with the current problem though. The problem is that people don't want to play monster characters. Now granted, there are two aspects of this problem, one are the incentives to play a cuddly monster, the other are the disincentives in playing a monstrous monster. Lets say, hypothetically, that (I'll use kobolds here) kobolds are subsequently banned from just about every civilized area, and are freely PvPable by the rest of the players. And add on a DC cost or something to play them. (I'm not sure how the platinum coins work, tbh). Now what happens here? Well, upon playing a kobold, one would start in his home and be greeted with... nothing, just NPCs. So he goes to the surface to RP with some players. Of course, he has to wait in the wilderness since he can't go to civilized areas without meta-ing the guards. So, someone comes by. "Ahh! Kobold" *Blam* *Splat* Kobold is down in one round, carry on. Monster re-spawns, comes back to his home with... no one else there, again. In short, this will get boring for the monster character very quickly. I don't think any kobold wants to either: 1: have no one to RP with, or 2: get PvPed (and subsequently PKed) in every single encounter with any non-kobold. Now yes, this probably will cut down on cutesy kobolds. Of course monster kobolds are already in bad shape and this will just make things worse. They wind up with problem 1 again, having no one to RP with. And frankly, if this is done, well, then all kobolds might as well be deleted and be barred from use. We're here to have fun, of course, and playing all by yourself gets boring very very quickly. _________________ I play:
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 12:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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The1Kobra wrote: And add on a DC cost or something to play them. (I'm not sure how the platinum coins work, tbh). Now what happens here? Platinum simply means you need to put a request to play them, no DC cost. As for the rest, I wouldn't support PvP on-sight (despite how obviously glaring it is RP-wise to not kill a kobold in the kobold area when you had been massacring them without mercy a second ago), but he Platinum-Coining I definitely would.
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 15:23 PM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Paladins killing any newborn that isn't a demon/devil is UTTER, COMPLETE, BULL CRAP.
I don't care if it's a baby goblin, kobold, drow, or anything not from some outer plane of pure evil....
IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN.
WHY?
SIMPLE: One of the MAIN RULES of ALL paladins:
DON'T KILL AN UNARMED, DEFENSELESS CREATURE.
Newborns are definitely helpless...and a paladin who kills ANY helpless being that does not come from an inherently evil plane(ie hell), should be considered fallen.
What distinguishes the GOOD from the EVIL is simple: Good is the better way.
The paladin might even be inclined to take a baby goblin back to it's home in hopes that the goblin may one day remember, and teach other goblins that not all humans are bad....it's what I would do if I played a paladin.
To kill a baby newborn Goblin shows inherent racism(a sign of FEAR). Because a Paladin has no fear, as was stated earlier....he wouldn't fear the baby goblin one day growing up to be a threat...because if it did grow up and eventually attack...the paladin would kill it...
But the paladin gives something called "the benefit of the doubt"...if you as a player of a paladin hven't given this.....you are no paladin. You are a fighter.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 15:35 PM |
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Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Geld Yaztran wrote: To kill a baby newborn Goblin shows inherent racism(a sign of FEAR). Because a Paladin has no fear, as was stated earlier....he wouldn't fear the baby goblin one day growing up to be a threat...because if it did grow up and eventually attack...the paladin would kill it... Racism isn't necessary a sign of fear. It could be a sign of hatred, or simply prudence - they're trying to wipe your kind out, so you are prejudice against them. Your logic that racism is caused by fear, and therefore without fear it wouldn't exist is at best fallacious. Geld Yaztran wrote: The paladin might even be inclined to take a baby goblin back to it's home in hopes that the goblin may one day remember, and teach other goblins that not all humans are bad....it's what I would do if I played a paladin. Oh, and when the inhabitants there try to kill you? You will happily butcher them all in front of the baby and hope that he sees the bright side? When everyone else turns it away for adoption, what will you do then? Adopt it and raise it as your own? The time spent raising a creature that you have been raised to believe is inherently evil in the faint hope that it may be redeemed could mean the lives of dozens of innocents. Remember, while LG you are not Exalted. How will your conscience deal with that? Or, even worse, will you just leave it there? Let it die of starvation or dehydration? I doubt that the goblin will remember that 'not all humans are bad' ... if it remembers anything, it will remember the man who came in and massacred its family.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 16:11 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Geld Yaztran wrote: Paladins killing any newborn that isn't a demon/devil is UTTER, COMPLETE, BULL CRAP.
I don't care if it's a baby goblin, kobold, drow, or anything not from some outer plane of pure evil....
IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN.
WHY?
SIMPLE: One of the MAIN RULES of ALL paladins:
DON'T KILL AN UNARMED, DEFENSELESS CREATURE.
Newborns are definitely helpless...and a paladin who kills ANY helpless being that does not come from an inherently evil plane(ie hell), should be considered fallen.
What distinguishes the GOOD from the EVIL is simple: Good is the better way.
The paladin might even be inclined to take a baby goblin back to it's home in hopes that the goblin may one day remember, and teach other goblins that not all humans are bad....it's what I would do if I played a paladin.
To kill a baby newborn Goblin shows inherent racism(a sign of FEAR). Because a Paladin has no fear, as was stated earlier....he wouldn't fear the baby goblin one day growing up to be a threat...because if it did grow up and eventually attack...the paladin would kill it...
But the paladin gives something called "the benefit of the doubt"...if you as a player of a paladin hven't given this.....you are no paladin. You are a fighter. Good thing Paladins are characters and not pieces of paper with rules written on 'em, then.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 16:27 PM |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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Yurell wrote: As for the rest, I wouldn't support PvP on-sight (despite how obviously glaring it is RP-wise to not kill a kobold in the kobold area when you had been massacring them without mercy a second ago), but he Platinum-Coining I definitely would. This is missing the point entirely. The problem is that it's too hard/boring to play a monstrous monster character. They end up having no one to form a stable RP base with. How is adding difficulties and restrictions going to help encourage people to play monster characters? Trying to solve a problem by worsening the problem areas, well... it doesn't logically follow at all. It seems like trying to help a plant that hasn't been getting enough water by reducing the amount of water it receives. It's just encouragement to play something else. _________________ I play:
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P Three
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 17:56 PM |
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Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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I know Godo.
I've known Godo for a looong time.
I've known Godo since before Godo came to Amia. (Ania says *STAB*, Godo. Love from Myon)
That being said, if one char doesn't work out, make another. Make an elf or a hin or a kobold or something that /is/ allowed places. Conflict RP is fun and yay, we all know this, but it does have the unfortunate side of people not (censored) liking your char. I mean, hell, Katsumi isn't allowed most places, neither is yon explosive sorceress of mine. But we still play, and there's still loads of fun to be had.
Give Godo a break for a bit. Make a char that is welcome. When you want to stir the pot a bit, grab the gobo and go to town.
Also, Geld? I know pleeeenty of dyed-in-the-wool paladins (My own included) that would not bat an eye at skewering a nest of Goblinlings.
Why? Because goblins are inherently EVIL. Yes, there are exceptions. There are exceptions to every rule, whatever. But GENERALLY SPEAKING, Goblins, like most kobolds, are evil. Paladins smite Evil. They leave it to the Clergy to work with words. They're the swords of (insert god name here). This isn't to say Paladins are stupid or lack finesse, or can't talk, but Delia, for example, has rigid vows she has to stick to or risk Falling from Torm's favour. One of them is that she kills evil. Yes, she will definitely run into a fight against a dragon alone and unarmed. Not because she thinks it's smart, but because her God demands duty, and she'd rather try and fail than sit complacent in the face of evil. Goblins, Kobolds, that kind of thing, are no less evil just because they're smaller.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 19:15 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Quote: Yes, she will definitely run into a fight against a dragon alone and unarmed. Not because she thinks it's smart, but because her God demands duty, and she'd rather try and fail than sit complacent in the face of evil. Actually, that one's just stupid, and no one's duty was ever done by committing suicide.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sat, Apr 17 2010, 20:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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If the PvP culture around monster races on Amia changed, I'm willing to bet some people would be happy to put together a bandit group of monsters.
Why would they hide away? No, they'd gang up on travellers, try to rob them, and eventually get captured and killed. Time to move on to the next character. That's how I see ideal monster PCs. I'm not sure it's ever going to happen here, because it would require a conscious decision to change rules and attitudes.
Also: you are absolutely wrong, Geld. You cannot make such bold and absolute claims with the information given. Not every paladin has the same beliefs, codes and personality. It's pretty much a classic D&D dilemma whether to kill a monster baby, and both options are certainly viable in the appropriate circumstances. Yes, maybe some situations would be such that your post would apply. But then, others might not. As I already said, you can't tell a priori, because all ethical decisions take place in experience.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 0:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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The1Kobra wrote: This is missing the point entirely.
The problem is that it's too hard/boring to play a monstrous monster character. They end up having no one to form a stable RP base with. How is adding difficulties and restrictions going to help encourage people to play monster characters? This demonstrates that you seem to be missing the point entirely - I don't want more people to play monster race PCs. I want them to be rare, played by dedicated players who don't just think "Wouldn't it be funny to have a goblin bard", roll one and play a couple of times.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 1:06 AM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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What I'm saying basically is this:
Good and evil are NOT points of view.
Not sure in how many ways I can put this but here...let me explain.
Based on your baby goblin killing idea....why that means that:
Paladins of Velsharoon exist.
Paladins of Lolth exist.
Paladins of Bane exist.
Paladins of Grumsh exist.
EVERY evil deity would all have paladins.
Why? Because they think they're doing good...that's why.
Now hopefully you can use this very fine example as to why you are so wrong if you do play a paladin who kills baby goblins.
Here let me say it in a different way so you further understand my point:
Evil thinks it's GOOD too. The difference is the actions it takes...like killing babies.
If this doesn't make you think on your take of "Goodly, baby-killing, paladin", then you're either foolish, or you're deliberately arguing the point because you simply wish to be a baby killing paladin.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 1:19 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Geld Yaztran wrote: What I'm saying basically is this:
Good and evil are NOT points of view. Unfortunately, some circumstances are shades of grey even in this black-and-white and do require further analysis ... someone's intentions can have a great affect on the alignment of their actions. Geld Yaztran wrote: Not sure in how many ways I can put this but here...let me explain.
Based on your baby goblin killing idea....why that means that:
Paladins of Velsharoon exist.
Paladins of Lolth exist.
Paladins of Bane exist.
Paladins of Grumsh exist.
EVERY evil deity would all have paladins.
Why? Because they think they're doing good...that's why. Nope. Geld Yaztran wrote: Evil thinks it's GOOD too. The difference is the actions it takes...like killing babies. No, evil thinks it's right, not necessarily good. In this world, 'good' is a thing to be strived for, and evil is always morally wrong. In the D&D world, evil and good are two sides in a war that has raged since creation. Geld Yaztran wrote: If this doesn't make you think on your take of "Goodly, baby-killing, paladin", then you're either foolish, or you're deliberately arguing the point because you simply wish to be a baby killing paladin. Or maybe we've put more thought into the matter than would appear at face value?
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 1:30 AM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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Based on your answers I'd say little thought was put into it...but whatever....okay..
Paladins can kill babies...fine..
Anyone who thinks I am going to take said paladin seriously...or said player....is sadly mistaken...
If your paladin does kill babies and other morally wrong things....best not to play with me...
One of my pet peeves is the horrible RP of paladins who somehow find moral excuses to perform the most base of actions.
Sorry..it tells me that you as a player don't take your own characters seriosuly...so why should I?
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Grymia
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 1:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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Gotta agree with Geld here:
Paladins, are very much meant to be the Epitome, of (censored) virtue. They are the most likely to feel the TANGIBLE pull of Good and Evil and it's influence on the world, given what they are.
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Yurell
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 1:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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Geld Yaztran wrote: Based on your answers I'd say little thought was put into it...but whatever....okay.. You're entitled to that opinion, but before you keep it have a look at previous threads on paladins and see the pages of debate. Geld Yaztran wrote: Paladins can kill babies...fine..
Anyone who thinks I am going to take said paladin seriously...or said player....is sadly mistaken...
If your paladin does kill babies and other morally wrong things....best not to play with me... Your prerogative. However, IC actions are IC. And your characters need to treat it as such. Geld Yaztran wrote: One of my pet peeves is the horrible RP of paladins who somehow find moral excuses to perform the most base of actions. Horrible ... in your opinion. Geld Yaztran wrote: Sorry..it tells me that you as a player don't take your own characters seriosuly...so why should I? Then your interpretation is simply wrong. You'll find that many of us take it rather seriously
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Galenson
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 1:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 26 May 2006
Location: Down Under, calculating your demise with blunt expressions.
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This is why people, if playing as a monstrous race, you need to do your homework first and have a strong plan for how you operate. From an Orc player perspective even more-so then your average Tiefling lesbian vandal. The top reasons why you need to plan are the following: * Orcs/Gobbos are awesome. Everyone else is jealous. * 95% of humanoids WILL hate you for some reason (but... because its Amia, 90% of them will hug you first) * Orcs/Gobbos are not as appealling as other races for players which means there'll be fewer of you. Already you're out gunned, outnumbered and probably banned from most places. You can whine and say people don't love you... or you can continue playing an evil little bastard and do it smart. Here's a few tips Godo: * Don't fall into the chaotic stupid category. (doing stupid things in the name of whatever reason you're doing it.) It is a HUGE turn off for other players and they remember your playername for future encounters like a black list. Think before you hit the PvP button or enter Cordor, even the dumbest Baghtru worshiping greenskin possesses some form of animalistic cunning. Utilise it. * Change Deities in a way that it won't dramatically affect your character. Going nowhere with Maglubiyet? Switch to an Orcish or Underdark deity like Shargaas or Ghaunadar which actually encourage some form of intelligence. It draws less attention to you (see above about the Black List) and allows you to be more flexible when RPing with other players. For example, I swapped my Orog from Gruumsh to Illneval to get more interaction (yes, I know its not easy being Green) with other races. Most players think he's only a half-orc, I don't tell them he's not (unless they're Drow, then you smack them a good one for getting it wrong  ) and it seems to work for me. * Invest your DCs in the character. The RP limitations of TRUE monstrous races (Cuddly, big breasted, flawless and fanged Tiefling and Fey lesbians do not count as a monster. They are panzies, enough said) are as much a blessing as a barrier. Because you can't go everywhere or RP with everyone, you make do with what little you have. Invest your DCs, skin change Godo to a halfling appearance with a gobo head if you think it'll help your RP in some way. Greenskins are an extreme minority player population-wise so stand out in some way. And above all, don't complain about it! Its an old issue that keeps popping up and up and up over time. You made the choice to Role Play a monster, stick by the choice or make a Tiefling lesbian. [edit] Doing your homework can apply to any race or difficult class btw. Spend the time to invest in the toon. As selfish as it is, it makes everyone else's game time better.
_________________
Plays:
"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."
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ainjyll
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 4:23 AM |
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Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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I can't believe I'm actually saying this but I agree with the git of all gits and think that Galenson hit the nail on the head. As did Iron as well, I'd love to see monster races become KoS, I know it'll never happen, but I think it would go a long way towards making monster races more monstrous and less huggly, which seems to be a disturbing trend I've noticed. I mean really... would you hug a kobold? I wouldn't.. they smell like bologna and rotten peanut butter sandwiches. Ewww.....
_________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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MoshingChris
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 5:38 AM |
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Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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This songs for Geld! 
_________________
I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
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Grymia
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 5:56 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
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I like 'The Old Code' from Dragoonheart as a generally good guideline when I immediately think of a Paladin and how they should act.
Admittedly, there is a Paladin's code by which they operate that is given to any Paladin PC on here.. but still.
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The1Kobra
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 16:48 PM |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2009
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IronAngel wrote: If the PvP culture around monster races on Amia changed, I'm willing to bet some people would be happy to put together a bandit group of monsters. Please tell me I'm misinterpreting what you're saying. So, if people were able to freely PvP monsters, then people would start playing more monstrous monster characters? How does this logic follow? There aren't very many people playing monstrous monsters. How is making things harder, indeed, the very things complained about in the OP going to help? Where are those players going to come from? Thin air? I mean, this is how I view the set-up, and the logic just doesn't connect. P1: Few players play monstrous monster characters. Most PC monster characters are 'cutesies', and even they are few and far between. P2: The reason people don't play monstrous monster characters is because they have an extremely limited base of players to RP with. P3: Making monster characters freely PvPable, require a platinum award, and (perhaps) banning them from civilized areas will make them more attractive to players. C: More people will play monster characters. The problem here is P3. P3 is worsening the problem in P2 and would make monster characters less attractive to players and therefore they would logically be played less. _________________ I play:
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Craig deathwalker
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 16:56 PM |
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Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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jenmeme
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Posted: Sun, Apr 18 2010, 17:31 PM |
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Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Location: Rockingham, NC
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Godo wrote: Apparently the only place Godo is allowed to be to do some RP is in the frontier with the hopes that someone will walk by, about everywhere else that he is allowed in without being instantly killed is usually void of players or in hunting grounds where players are more interested in hunting then RP. I have been thinking about this....and me thinking is a dangerous thing. Imagine a fresh player, new to the island and all that. You leave Cordor and what is the first thing you run into? A viscious pack of goblins intent on eating your liver! You barely escape with your life, only to run, scared to death, back to the safety of the city where you find.......another pack of goblins, and kobolds standing in the city! Doesn't matter if they are being all cute and cuddly, you just know that moments before the same monsters tried to keeeelllll you! So now that there is no where to run and hide, the city isn't even safe you want nothing more than to kill these beasts. You try only to be smited down by one of the guard. So you turn evil, and join the Banites, and now you are banned from the city and the "cute goblins and kobolds" are laughing at you! Ok a bit extreme....but I just woke up.... _________________ Bayara Tshakia - Acolyte of BaneGerinana Diams - Lockpick and sneak for hireFrin Hill - Buried in the Woods-See all of my characters on the Amia Wikki-
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