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The animal domain provides +1 more damage every 7 cleric levels to animal summons, but unless im mistaken clerics get only 2-3 summons that could be classed as animal and im not sure what those are excatly as it is. And on top of that i was wondering if there was a deity for druids to improve there summons....and last of all if i got the cleric domain Animal and then went the druid class ontop of that would my druid summons get any bonuses from that domain?

Post your thoughts Please

Can someone move this query to "The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mark III" thread?

DustSpray101 wrote:

Can someone move this query to "The Official Build and Build Advice Topic: Mark III" thread?

phpBB2 has no such function. But maybe well try it when the forums have been updated.

It applies to any and all Summon Monster I-IX. Sadly, there's no domain-based summoning themes.

It may apply to every other summon through, Planar Bindings, Gate and epic spells. I am unsure.

It should apply to druid Summon Monster, but I don't know if it applies to animal companion.

There is no druidic way to improve your summons, apart from buffs. However, druid summons tend to be better than arcane and divine summons (or so I'm told).

You could get a DM to level you up to epic Cleric/Druid and test extensively, and then post the results for everyone!

I brought it up like a year ago that Clerics with the animal domain should summon from the Druid summon line for summons 1 - 9.

Yes. And if they're better, the buff might as well be removed. I think it was then said that they were designed for poorer druid buffs?

are this buff always on or is it buffed only when cleric prays?

Always on, it's way older than the prayer system.

what are "always on" and what are the temporary buffs when looking at prayer systems?

From the Summons page:

Quote:

A cleric with the Animal domain receives additional benefits on their creature as follows:

• Strength +2, Constitution +2

• Armor Class +1

• Attack Bonus +1

This applies always (and predates the Deity system by years).

From R&L, the Deity System thread:

Quote:

Animal - Increases damage of Animal summons, 1 for every 7 cleric levels

This is the domain bonus you get from praying.

They should apply to all Summon Monster variants, at the very least. I was previously talking about the default Domain bonus, but now I notice the OP is asking about the prayer boon. I have never tested that.

The creature summoned with summon creature I is the creature normally summoned with summon creature II and so forth. Not sure if that applies on Amia as is now, but it means you can save yourself the level nine slot, and still get the last Summon Creature out. Plus it's stronger, thanks to the boosts mentioned above.

No, that doesn't work on Amia. It's replaced with the above bonuses.

IronAngel wrote:

No, that doesn't work on Amia. It's replaced with the above bonuses.

Then IMO Animal Domain isn't worth taking, compared to the other you can get, which make up for spells/abilities clerics lack. Too bad Animal Domain don't do the same as on NWN2. Animal companion for clerics would be awesome.

Permanent +2 AB, +1 AC, +1 Damage, +1 HP/level, in addition to +4 temporary damage at level 28, on already wooty summons. And you get Cat's Grace and True Seeing. It's a decent domain alright. (Even if it only applies to Summon Monster spells; for all we know, it could work on EDK.) Not that it should be about whether it's "worth" taking; you take it if it's your deity's domain.

Gravemaskin wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

No, that doesn't work on Amia. It's replaced with the above bonuses.

Then IMO Animal Domain isn't worth taking, compared to the other you can get, which make up for spells/abilities clerics lack. Too bad Animal Domain don't do the same as on NWN2. Animal companion for clerics would be awesome.

Thank god domains aren't NWN2's. They're so broken. Air and Water! Free Uncanny Dodge and Evasion for everyone! Free animal companion! Free Toughness! Arrrghhhh!

Do note that if you're a Druid, you need to have an animal domain based god in order to get an all party prayer buff, otherwise it only affects yourself. I personally think it should be a god of animal, plant or element domains but that's just me...

It is plant or animal.

Gravemaskin wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

No, that doesn't work on Amia. It's replaced with the above bonuses.

Then IMO Animal Domain isn't worth taking, compared to the other you can get, which make up for spells/abilities clerics lack. Too bad Animal Domain don't do the same as on NWN2. Animal companion for clerics would be awesome.

I'd counter with the consideration the summon buffing is known to be an effective method for spellcasters. Clerics can already do +Str and +Con, then toss in +Dex for Cats Grace. I use Maximized, so I'm adding +2AC to my summon with that, +3 if it's on an odd dex to start with.

Sink that in with the Permanent +2 AB, +1 AC, +1 Damage, +1 HP/level, in addition to +4 temporary damage at level 28 (according to IronAngel).

And I'll be finding out if it works on EDK when Weston's made the progress to be unFallen and finish his releveling. I'm very excited to know if it does or not (but I doubt it since it's a feat spell).

Also, a Cleric who can +dex really has potential to give +2AC to anyone who's armor would allow. Or up AB of Weapon Finess users if I'm not mistaken on that function. If you plan for that potential can make the domain more worthwhile.

soundofastream wrote:

Do note that if you're a Druid, you need to have an animal domain based god in order to get an all party prayer buff, otherwise it only affects yourself. I personally think it should be a god of animal, plant or element domains but that's just me...

TormakSaber wrote:

It is plant or animal.

Ahem... although, the plant and animal domain thing is a good rule to go by in general, it's actually wrong. Talona, Talos, Auril, Anhur, Isis, Deep Sashelas, etc. don't have animal or plant domains and they support Druids. Here on Amia, the elemental lords can support Druids (proven by DM plot and even DM PC's). Also, the rule doesn't always work the other way around either. Take Uthgar for example, he has the animal domain and he doesn't support Druids (which is lame, btw, 'cause a Druid of Uthgar would be bad ass).

I agree that certain gods with elemental domains should allow the support of Druids though. That would kick major ass, imo. I mean, come on, tell me Druids of Umberlee, Valkur, Urogalan, Geb, Set, Callarduran Smoothhands and Urdlen wouldn't be cool?

Hell, I even think other gods that don't have any of those would make for awesome Druid gods. Gods like Kelemvor, Jergal, Sharess, Ghaunadaur, Eilistraee, Lathander, Yurtrus and even Salandra (even though I think shes a lame god, sorry Salandrans!

) would make very cool and interesting choices.

None of those you listed have anything to do with Nature or Druids.

Depends on whether or not you think the Elements have anything to do with Druids. Their spells and animal monster summons, tend to indicate they've a LOT to do with the Elements.

I meant Kelemvor, Sharess, etc.

One would think Umberlee (well, all the Furies), Smoothhands and several other gods listed could potentially have Druids? Smoothhand clerics traditionally summoned Earth Elementals but mechanically, clerics on Amia aren't geared up for it but Druids are. I got around the issue by including Segojan/Smoothands for my svirf.

But consider that a Druid of Ghaunadaur mechanically gets the Animal category and thus gets the group prayer, but, a Druid of Callarduran Smoothands or Umberlee, mechanically doesn't.

Whether or not those gods have Druids or not, is not entirely the point here. Its that mechanically, some of these gods get the group prayer whilst other more logical ones, don't. I just think it needs a look into.

Death is a huge part of nature. Cats are also a part of nature. Sharess is a stretch, I admit, but Kelemvor would make an awesome Druid god.

For Ghaundaur, just read his dogma. he would totally fit.

Quote:

All creatures have their place, and all are fit to wield power. Those who hunt weed out the weak and strengthen the stock of all. Those who rebel or who walk apart find new ways and try new things and do most to advance their races. Creatures of power best house the energy of life, which Ghaunadaur reveres and represents...

Jergal would also be a stretch, though he is a the god of Fatalism which is part of nature.

Eilistraee is a hunter along with being a master sword women and musician. She loves nature and the hunt.

Lathander, again, read the dogma and he would totally fit on many levels.

Quote:

Strive always to aid, to foster new hope, new ideas, and new prosperity for all humankind and its allies. Perfect thyself, and guard ever against pride, for it is a sacred duty to foster new growth, nurture growing things, and work for rebirth and renewal. Be fertile in mind and body. Consider always the consequences of thine actions so that the least effort may bring the greatest and best reward. Wherever you go, sow seeds of plants, tend the growing things you find, and plant seeds of hope, new ideas, and plans for a rosy future in the minds of all. Whenever possible, see each dawn...

Yurtrus is a god of disease and poison. Basically the Orcish Talona.

Salandra is a healer, quite the naturalist, is worshiped by herbalists and undead hunters. I think she fits.

"Nature" by DnD standards is very speciifc and that's why there's a very specific list of Druid gods.

TormakSaber wrote:

"Nature" by DnD standards is very speciifc and that's why there's a very specific list of Druid gods.

I think it's more along the lines of how certain spells that make sense for certain classes are still kept from those classes. I mean that it's similar. Because someone like Anhur, for example, he has about as much to do with nature as Uthgar, yet Uthgar can't support Druids. Hell, I'd argue that Uthgar has -more- to do with nature than Anhur. They just seem to pick and choose who they want to be Druidic gods for no real other reason other than just because.

I'm not trying to challenge it and get it change, mind. I'm just saying, I think they would be cool choices. Think out loud, really.

I definetely agree there. The druid class is ridicilous limited to a celtic rip-off. Their social structure and beliefs don't even make sense for most patron deities or most cultures. Paladins are by far the most stupid class in existence, but druids are a good second. The idea that you have to worship some ridicilously defined "nature" and uphold some "balance" defined by a global tradition crossing the borders of faith, race and culture, is the lamest idea ever. I wish they'd stuck with "druids are nature priests, dealing with the spirits and powers of the land. They often perform clerical duties in primitive cultures, but there are also more organized druidic circles with sophisticated doctrine." There are shamanistic traditions in every culture on Earth. It's purely a design screw-up that they decided to choose only one culture to rip off and then add some cosmic mumbo-jumbo that wouldn't last critical scrutiny for a moment. If druids really had good Wisdom and more than 9 Int, they wouldn't be FR druids for very long.

IronAngel wrote:

If druids really had good Wisdom and more than 9 Int, they wouldn't be FR druids for very long.

Hey now, you've gone too far! Take it back!

Na, but I don't agree there. If you want to go there, you could say the same for most priests of evil faiths too -- hell, even a lot of non-evil faiths. People have different ideas of "wisdom." I wouldn't say an FR Druid is unwise. It certainly is hard to explain certain aspects of their beliefs, but it's not impossible. Not to mention -- like all other priests/faithfuls do -- at the end of the day, you have your god to mention for your reasoning's for what you do.

True. I find it ironic that the wiser you get, the more powerful a priest you can be. While it seems intuitive that you would in fact alianate from your deity.

But druids are guilty of the Naturalistic Fallacy: if it's natural, it's right. It's undeniable and dead obvious that there's no "ought" from "is." And furthermore, they limit "nature" to untamed growing things and some other stuff. If it's natural for a wolverine to kill in excess, a beaver to fell trees for dams and ants to build huge hives, how is it not natural when humans do that? In fact, how can anything that is of nature and within nature be unnatural? And is it not the most unnatural thing of all to artificially enforce some idea of balance that doesn't come naturally?

It would be silly to evaluate their fictional beliefs too much. But these two fallacies are so crass and obvious at first glance that I have a hard time taking stereotypical druids very seriously. I would prefer if there were more options of tribalistic priests, shamans, witch doctors and wilderness sages.

Their idea of what true nature is, is different and narrow, that's obvious. It does make sense though, if it's looked at through their eyes. Druids don't see only the wild as truly natural. Druids plant, they can be farmers, etc. Not all Druids oppose civilization either. Most wilder Druids do seek to keep it contained though. That is, to watch it and try to keep it from spreading too much, thereby destroying the wilds. Enforcing the "laws of nature", which are really just the laws of their gods set forth, are totally fine because they come from the divine. It's no more crazy than a Christian saying being gay is unnatural and against their god. It's their perspective and something they back up with scriptures from their lords.

I think you're over analyzing FR druids a little too much though. If you over analyze a lot of FR things, they fall flat on their ass too. But then again, I guess I'm over analyzing too, in defending it. Hah! It's all fantasy and needs to be taken with a grain of salt at the end of the day.

Yeah. Hence my preference: minimal definitions and restrictions so players who actually know better than the game designers can create their own characters with elaborate philosphies. The more I study religion, the more difficult it gets to play a religious PC in FR, because the game designers knew nothing about religion when they wrote their books. There's very little room for diverse, rich and believable religious PCs in the Realms thanks to the narrow rules in place.

Clearly your interpretation of real lie history's imaginary friends is better than their self created interpretation of their fantasy worls' imaginary friends.

Clearly, considering it's as academic and complex a subject as astrophysics or biology. Of course those who know about it can't take the ideas of laymen completely seriously. Religion is not about imaginary people. It's about people and society, about symbolic and psychological functions. These are things that work the same way everywhere, and would work so in an imaginary world where the people's cognitive structures were roughly the same. There's a logic to religion that goes well beyond the surface of myth and doctrine. I just wish they gave us the space to make our own interpretations like we let them make theirs, uneducated as they are.

Luckily DnD is accessible to the general public and is not the sole ground of the philosopher.

Yes, which was my point. The current druid stereotype could just be a major druidic tradition, giving the background for everyone who wasn't interested in anything more. And then there could be more generic nature priests in different cultures. The greatest openness possible. Right now, there's one specific type of druid and pretty much no room for diversity. Practically all druids are part of a cross-faith circle and uphold some abstract Balance, they all swear the same oaths and are subject to the same hierarchy. Hells, every druid on Faerûn is supposedly under the service of a handful of NPCs with a monolithic culture. If you don't agree with the game designer's idea of what a druid should be, you're out of options. Especially since we don't even have the shaman class in NWN. I think everyone should have the option of playing up to their interests and ability, whatever that may be.

What's the problem with just making a nature priest, and not using the "druid" class?

"Druids" to the extent that they existed in the real world were a single tradition of pre-Roman Celtic priests who engaged in human sacrifice. Basically nothing is known about them, due to the fact that they had no written records and were all killed.

If someone feels like playing a "druid," it's probably because he's read the description of a D&D druid, rather than wanting to replicate anything from the real world. If he doesn't want to play a D&D druid, then why pick that class?

Because clerics have nothing to do with nature, whereas druids have everything to do with nature? Special feats, animal empathy, animal companion, all sorts of witch spells, the taking on of a totem shape which is pretty much a basic idea behind shamanism. Clerics with their celestial summons, Turn Undead and stuff don't really fit the theme oftentimes.

I guess there can be plenty of reasons, and I can't speak for everyone. But believe me, it happens all the time. I'm not sure whether you should do anything about it. I'm just stating, it's unfortunate and stupid, and I could do it better if I had the chance.

IronAngel wrote:

Permanent +2 AB, +1 AC, +1 Damage, +1 HP/level, in addition to +4 temporary damage at level 28, on already wooty summons. And you get Cat's Grace and True Seeing. It's a decent domain alright. (Even if it only applies to Summon Monster spells; for all we know, it could work on EDK.) Not that it should be about whether it's "worth" taking; you take it if it's your deity's domain.

how dare you ignore polymorph self?! >:O

MoshingChris wrote:

ALL HAIL CHAOS GODS!

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