AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I am a relative noob here having been on the server since only June last year but I have been a RPer for over 25 yars. In as much, I don't want to crap on anyone. But I have to agree, that in the short time I have been on the server, finding a DM not online is far more common than finding one online. And to find more than one online is very rare.

That said, I think you guys do a great job with what resources you have. So, the most obvious solution is to have more DMs. I have read the reasons in this thread why there are not more DMs but maybe it is time to lower the requirements to become one. And maybe these newer ones could have relatively easier tasks such as rebuilds or seeking mulers/twinkers, etc. that way the storytelling is left to the more experienced DMs. I would be surprised that there are not a lot of experienced Amians out there that would jump at the chance to join the DM team.

Last edited by Metalien on Mon, Mar 15 2010, 4:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I'd do it for sure. Who wouldn't enjoy enlivening the environment for other players, helping new players and old alike figure things out?

In my eyes a DM should never lose sight of the fact they're a pllayer too, they should think "What would I want if the role was reversed?" and be a little less hasty to pass off a task as a waste of time etc.

I've been a DM and it's fun if you take it as fun, the moment you start looking at things as being something you avoid doing, you kill your own enjoyment.

There are probably several Amian players who would become DMs. And there are probably several Amian players who could become excellent, active DMs.

But those... and 99% of the rest of the server, aren't virgin saints.

We've all bitched at someone once. (Un)intentionally got caught for muling/twinking/farming/rule breaking/flaming/baiting/crossdressing. And as such, none of those 99% can therefore become DMs.

The remaining 1% apparently don't want to become DMs.

EDIT: Yes, I pulled those numbers out of my ass.

Ugh. "Sub DMs". You're a DM or you're not. If you're trsuted enough to go onto the part of the game where you can actually break stuff (the DM client) then you may as well be a full DM and have access to everything.

I agree with Mago. Sadly most of us, myself included, have broken rules and been punished... some, like me, years ago... but sadly those past disgresions make the chances of being a DM very slim.

If the team were to look at players that have leaned by thier mistakes and are now a good candidate for DMship and not what they did 2 years ago, they'd find a LOT of players on Amia that would make excelent DMs.

I'd hate to be an advocate for lowering the standards, but I do advocate looking at people who've made mistakes but learned by them. This would greatly increase thier chances of finding some gems of players.

I could mention one or two players I know on Amia that have broken rules in the past but would make amazing DMs now.

There are complaints that the DMs are not good enough, so you would like them to accept less skilled, shadier, less trustable people?

Metalien wrote:

If the team were to look at players that have leaned by thier mistakes and are now a good candidate for DMship and not what they did 2 years ago, they'd find a LOT of players on Amia that would make excelent DMs.

We actually have had (and do have) DMs who, in the distant past, broke rules, handled it properly, and subsequently showed a good enough behaviour to be considered and added.

IT's simply a case taht most virgin saints are happy to continue their poor behaviour. Which is the point where we go "No."

Last edited by Metalien on Mon, Mar 15 2010, 4:13 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

We've all bitched at someone once. (Un)intentionally got caught for muling/twinking/farming/rule breaking/flaming/baiting/crossdressing.

I can happily say I've never broken that last rule :lol:

WonWon wrote:

We actually have had (and do have) DMs who, in the distant past, broke rules, handled it properly, and subsequently showed a good enough behaviour to be considered and added.

IT's simply a case taht most virgin saints are happy to continue their poor behaviour. Which is the point where we go "No."

Some people just don't learn, and that's a sad thing.

TormakSaber wrote:

There are complaints that the DMs are not good enough, so you would like them to accept less skilled, shadier, less trustable people?

I think you misread what I meant, mate. Lemme re-phrase that.
"Rather than have to lower the standards, look for players that maye have been a rule breaker in the past but learnt by thier mistakes and are now rule abiding and upstanding members of the Amian community"
Ron pretty much answered my statement to that though.

Tormak, I am not suggesting these new DMs not have full funtions as a DM but they ought to know that they are hired to help with the lack of numbers and their primary role would be to handle the issues that are not being handled now. If there are so many requests out there when a DM logs on, then maybe these new DMs could focus on these issues and leave the story telling to the more seasoned DMs.

I would bet that there would be a large number of Amians who would sign up for this. This way those DMs who find rebuilds and the like distasteful can focus on what they find tasteful and the new guys can handle the requests. Just the amount of interest in this thread in such a short time shows there would be interest.

It's not a matter of what you find tasteful. It's the fac tthat you signed on to be a DM, these are in your responsibilities to do, and you should be doing them.

Hiring temporary DMS, or people that otherwise wouldn't be a DM but get hired out of "Desperation" isn't good for the server.

Quote:

I would bet that there would be a large number of Amians who would sign up for this.

Yes.... and most all of the people that sign up would not make good DMs.

TormakSaber wrote:

There are complaints that the DMs are not good enough, so you would like them to accept less skilled, shadier, less trustable people?

That's presuming that you currently have the most skilled, least shady and most trustable people as DMs, already.

Why do people complain about them, if so?

edit: beaten to the punch

You didn't answer my question. People complain, and you would like us to hire the arguably worse ones?

Well I guess it is a matter of what would be considered a good DM. I agree flagrant rule breakers would not be ideal and should not be utilized. But there has to be more than a few on the server who could fill the role at least on a temproary basis. If not, then we have a problem with the player base as well, wouldn't you agree?

How do you know that they would be worse ones?

A clean record doesn't make you a good DM if you... for example, never DM.

Some people step up when their given the honours and responsibility. Some step down.

I've seen a lot of people step down, when they've been given the honours, on Amia.

Goodness no, but I as a player would like to see the DM candidate pool slightly increased by overlooking past indescripencies. But, I stress, I'm not saying lower the standards, just look at how players have behaved in the last year or two, not three years ago or whatever.

TormakSaber wrote:

You didn't answer my question. People complain, and you would like us to hire the arguably worse ones?

Are people complaining? There has been alot of positive feedback here.

Also, why are you saying that other people are worse DMs when you have no idea as to their ability as a DM? What's the old saying, no matter how good you are there's always someone better?

His point is;

People constantly (we watch paaaarty chaaat and faction fooorums, guys) bitch about the DM Team being so imperfect.

And so the suggested fix is to add players with poor, rule wise, track rcords to the DM Team?

Counterintuitive. Counter productive.

It's sad to see that almost the entire playerbase apparently isn't good enough to be DMs.

Specially since the playerbase, is quite big.

Filthy, bad humans.

WonWon wrote:

... so the suggested fix is to add players with poor, rule wise, track rcords to the DM Team?

Counterintuitive. Counter productive...

Can I underline this? I agree completely... and it's a bad day when an Aussie and a Pommie agree so completely :lol:

Who is suggesting playes with poor rule standards be DMs? From what I am reading, that is exactly the opposite of what is being suggested. But if there are no players on the server that would make suitable DMs, then that says a lot about the server, doesn't it. Again, I have only been here a short time but I do not buy that 99% of the players would not make suitable DMs.

I mean if the current DM roster is bombarded with requests and are unable to cover off on what needs to be covered, call me crazy but to me it seems more DMs are needed.

But I could be wrong. I don't know enough of the player base to say for sure due to my lenth of time here but I have been very impressed with many of the players on the server and think some of them ought to be given a chance. If they don't work out, then they lose the title.

Close. It's a mix between;

The OOC Dramatics (we've got enough dramas as is, tyvm)
The Twinkers & Mulers (twinkers + mulers + dm power = chaos)
The Great Guys who Aren't Interested (cry)
The Grinders who don't RP Ever (the sorts who don't even have forum accounts)
The People With Lives (how -dare- they not have 10 hours a week for Amia?)
The Unstables ("I quit Amia! ... for the third time this year")
The Crazy (metalien)
The None of the Aboves (yes, that means DMs have no lives.)

It's a frightening concept, but I can guarantee that at least half of the 'good people' you know, have a pretty bad track record. Comes with the fact the DM Team doesn't publicize bad people excluding extrenuating circumstances, and of course - no bad person who isn't being revealed is going to reveal himself.

Our "Warning List" has more accounts listed than we do Players per Day. Frightening thought, that.

I'm one of the bad people.

Does that mean I just came out of the closet?

WonWon wrote:

And so the suggested fix is to add players with poor, rule wise, track rcords to the DM Team?

No, add ones with relatively good ones.[/smartass]

Isn't the current policy to only accept DM's by invitation? Why so? DM's, even as a complete team, can't possibly look at each and every player that might want to do it, and may not even know of some really choice candidates because of playing times.

Start taking applications? And just consider each player by a case by case basis, whether or not they seem to be DM material. You may be surprised. "Oh, hey guys[DMteam], this guy's been with us for X years. None of us really know him, but his background checks out, and he seems to know our lore/rules pretty well, and shows some enthusiams into being a DM. Let's keep our eye on him for a while and post your observations on the DMforum under this thread."

Of course, all of this once the other pertinent matters get sorted out.

Activity is actually a pretty important factor, and we have a simple utility which organizes players by activity per month.

We typically just look at that, and one by one go through the players. Any we know, we start talking about. Any we don't; we start watching as much as we can.

So we have a good 'pool' to look at. It's just a shame that alot of what we see isn't good.

WonWon wrote:

His point is;

People constantly (we watch paaaarty chaaat and faction fooorums, guys) bitch about the DM Team being so imperfect.

And so the suggested fix is to add players with poor, rule wise, track rcords to the DM Team?

Counterintuitive. Counter productive.

That's really harsh. It could be read as 'you criticize me so get stuffed, I stay on top of the pile and you can go to the devil'. I'm not saying that is the intention but it is worth considering how people may read it.

As to the second statement; DMs are subject to revision are they not? If a player who knows their stuff but has a less then perfect record is appointed in a provisional capacity then surely the potential for benifit outweighs the risk?

I mean, there aren't that many people who know how to use the DM client stuff. I've been playing for ages and I have no idea at all. It may be worth considering the possibile benifits of having more DMs on as opposed to none at all.

Well, I stand corrected. As I said, I could be terribly wrong about the base as I have not been here long. All I can say is that if what you are saying, Wonwon, and I have no reason to disbelieve you, then we have a pretty shabby player base. And that is kinda sad. But you go with what you have, right.

I guess all one can do is focus on the solutions and not the problems. And in this case, focus on the good players and hope they some day become suitable DMs. In the meantime, there does not appear to be any abeyance for you guy.

No. It's not harsh at all, unless your perogotave is to jump to paranoid conclusions. Read the statement repeatedly.

This is the super laymans versoin of what Tormak is saying;

"You say we're bad DMs and untrustworthy, so you want us to add DMs who are unstrustworthy and bad (rulebreakers)?"

Actually... as I think of it, we... as players, aren't very forgiving in regards to the DMs.

Which makes the "screw ups" so much more sensitive and important.

Probably plays into the selection process as well.

tundrawalker1 wrote:

Well, I stand corrected. As I said, I could be terribly wrong about the base as I have not been here long. All I can say is that if what you are saying, Wonwon, and I have no reason to disbelieve you, then we have a pretty shabby player base. And that is kinda sad. But you go with what you have, right.

I guess all one can do is focus on the solutions and not the problems. And in this case, focus on the good players and hope they some day become suitable DMs. In the meantime, there does not appear to be any abeyance for you guy.

Yeah.

Hence the Rock/Us/Hardplace comment. We'd love to fix the problems if we could, but as it stands - it's hard. There are of course good DM candidates who get missed, though we're damned looking for them alot.

Hence why alot of DMs get antsy at threads where such a topic comes up. It's something we can't realy fix until candidates become, well, viable.

I think, if someone is given the honours to become a DM they would likely begin playing more. Then again, the people you are looking for are likely the people that devote every minute of their free time to Amia already, so... Yeah. In any case, I think there should be more DMs, but not if you need to resort to adding what would be considered ineligible now.

We post apps all the time when we get them. I don't know how the whole "We don't take applciations" bit got started because while I was up there, if they got sent, it got posted. If only for a unanimous "No" to be given.

We prefer DMs to not have to give up their life playerside if they become a DM. While we encourage DM hours quite alot - if you don't have exposure PCside, it's easy to become 'detached' and loose track of what you're supposed to be doing.

I did that for a while, and learned my lesson. Hence I try get about a 50/50 spread now.

Thus, if we want them to be able to stay alive playerside, while being contributing DMs... That means they need to be able to clock a fair few hours.

Staying in touch with the playerside... sure. But... as a DM, you should be pushing more DM hours than playerside hours.

And DMs on Amia, through the entire existence of the server, have been notorious to far more frequently be seen player side rather than DM side.

In fact, I can, unfortunately, mention several DMs who rarely, if ever, went DM side during their time as DMs on Amia.

I personally don't really get that though.

If you want to be a DM. If you accept the offer, and become a DM. You should have a desire to DM, foremost, rather than remain as a player.

But, for some reason... that's not happening too much on Amia.

(And we all know that Tormak, Ron etc push a lot of DM hours. Those aren't the DMs I'm referring to here.)

Shag it, I will do it. Sign me up. I have only been here for less than a year and have absolutely no idea about the DM client but I am game

And I have no history of rule breaking at all!!!

Just kidding. But there have to be some of us clean slaters around. I think no only should there be players offering to become DMs, we as players should nominate others, non-rulebreakers that is, to offer themselves.

What are you guys, as DMs, needing for qualifications anyway? I know a few players that I feel would be good DMs so if they meet the qualifiactions, and have good track records, then maybe they can be sweet-talked into condisering offering themselves.

WonWon wrote:

No. It's not harsh at all, unless your perogotave is to jump to paranoid conclusions. Read the statement repeatedly.

This is the super laymans versoin of what Tormak is saying;

"You say we're bad DMs and untrustworthy, so you want us to add DMs who are unstrustworthy and bad (rulebreakers)?"

Many people do jump directly to paranoid conclusions (Refugees are all terrorists?).

And if the DM team really thinks that most of the player base thinks they are untrustworthy jerks then Amia in general has a problem. Most of the players I know really appriciate the DM team... no matter what they do to you, at least they are there.

Last edited by Metalien on Mon, Mar 15 2010, 5:04 AM, edited 1 time in total.

WonWon wrote:

The Crazy (metalien).

I resent that, you bastard! :lol:

Edit: Check your bloody Inbox too! :roll:

*Ahem* Back to the rebuilds.

Why not create a schedule for DM's. They would sign up to do maybe a block of time during the month that they would be available solely for rebuilds. That way, the DM team is not spread too thin, and players would have a set time to which they would be able to rebuild, thus reducing spam to the DM client.

Thoughts?

Poorvincente wrote:

*Ahem* Back to the rebuilds.

Why not create a schedule for DM's. They would sign up to do maybe a block of time during the month that they would be available solely for rebuilds. That way, the DM team is not spread too thin, and players would have a set time to which they would be able to rebuild, thus reducing spam to the DM client.

Thoughts?

We would have impatient players. And a lot of players. I am not sure this would work.

"Hey, DM, you are taking too long with that guy! I have been waiting for X time and now that I managed to make it to the waiting room, I am having to wait even more?"

Dunno.

But then, again, getting old turns one sour. I miss the days when I was a more optmistic person.

Change the freebie rebuild offer to include a demand that the requesting player has to have the rebuild done when a DM offers to do so, else he'll forever forfeit his right to free rebuilds? Of course with exceptions for obviously unexpected and important in-character actions (not mindless hunting) or bad timing, like having to go to work in ten minutes. It'll still be abusable but not entirely as bad...

Poorvincente wrote:

*Ahem* Back to the rebuilds.

Why not create a schedule for DM's. They would sign up to do maybe a block of time during the month that they would be available solely for rebuilds. That way, the DM team is not spread too thin, and players would have a set time to which they would be able to rebuild, thus reducing spam to the DM client.

Thoughts?

"My timezone isn't covered / I didn't get my rebuild because there were too many people"

I would imagine that there would be many complaints following those lines.

In all honesty I think the DMs do a good job, and people are being too hard on them.

Yossarin wrote:

I do not log into the Client to do nothing. I am always doing something story-related, even if it is just tweaking with NPCs to prepare for a future event, getting bios and skins prepared. Therefore, I will almost always tell you to shove off if you ask me to help you with a rebuild. I was against them being made free for everyone (and was clearly in the minority) because the only reason the issue came up was because somebody talked about the DM perk of "free rebuilds".

When we turn right around and start giving everyone free rebuilds, it seems very much like we were doing so in order to protect our own perk. Which is not true. It was a perk I never used (maybe once, two and a half years ago), so giving it up wasn't a huge issue to me, if that's what the playerbase felt would be fair.

Should there ever be a time when something planned falls through, and I'm spending time in the Client, then sure, I can do rebuilds.

This rarely happens though. I have hungry players who always want to make an effort to progress the world and their own individual stories, and this is far more rewarding, and far more the point of, a roleplaying server than ensuring that you will be victorious in your next PvP encounter.

Amen the whole way.

If there are people able to be DMs but don't have the time or wish to invest 50+ hours a week, is it possible to make a position of people who are kinda like Helper DMs? People who just do the odd task here and there, such as, I dunno, NPC creation to help out, but not fully committed?

Uh, 50+ hours a week is a bit extreme. That's more than a full time job. Surely you don't think that should be the bar.

Tormak, that's hyperbole. I still suggest outsourcing menial tasks to those who can't put in enough hours to be a full-fledged DM but otherwise qualify to be one.

You know, I really don`t see why people would be so upset about rebuilds taking a while, I mean you`re basically getting a service done for you free of any sort of charge. Furthermore its not like they are crucial, so what if you can`t get it done on day one? It really doesn't effect you're ability to RP and enjoy the server.

Nathera wrote:

Tormak, that's hyperbole. I still suggest outsourcing menial tasks to those who can't put in enough hours to be a full-fledged DM but otherwise qualify to be one.

Also from what I got while reading, this doesn't really work since any DM quality people likely just don't want the job at all.
Eg. Just because you don't want to work at McDonald's full time doesn't mean that you would want to work there part-time.

Also guys, don't forget Uce's rebuild thread.

Last edited by Gunz on Mon, Mar 15 2010, 8:54 AM, edited 2 times in total.

I still say this should be taken away. It encourages powerbuilding. We don't need more of that. I suck at powerbuilding, so it doesn't benefit me! Frankly, if it doesn't benefit me, why would it be a rule? I'm what matters here, Amians, not you.

No but seriously, I'm against the rule. Also, I want to give a big "shaddap!" to all the people who get mad that they don't get their -free- rebuilds right away. Word.

---------

I, the coolest player on this damn server, have the solution to your "DM problem", Amians. It's simple, really. All we have to do is outsource to India!

I don't know where all this "rule breaking" players things is coming from, man, 'cause I'm clean as a whistle! Amians are naughty, obviously. Except for me, of course. Well... besides the random PKing, muling, random NPC attacking, abuse of the SD widget, Haking to be invincible and DM name calling, of course. But aside from that, I'm an upstanding Amian. A shame you filthy rats (read: Amians) are such habitual rule breaks! FOR SHAME! ::wiggles pointing finger, narrow eyed::

Warning: I blame the insane amounts of work my classes have me doing right now for the nuttiness that is this post. Many thanks. ::bows martially::

Well, this isn't really what the topic was about. It's simply a request that you (player) don't bitch at a DM or in the party chat or on the forums, if a DM you asked a rebuild from is busy bringing the world alive. Have a little patience, please, you don't need it right there and then.

Mr Mago wrote:

There's seriously no denying that Amia has ridiculously low DM activity.

Don't know how many other servers you've played on but my count is about five and Amia's got one of the highest DM attention rates I've seen for a RP server. Arelith for example good luck getting a DM if you don't put in a request on the forum with a set time and they keep thier player accounts to themselves so you can't bug them when they are playing at all. I feel lucky that Amia's got a good DM team to support us. It's not perfect but they are people and players as well.

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