AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Mr T wrote:

Oh I know how powerful they are..even probably too powerful. However they are being changed because some people couldn't handle being defeated by them. It's a player attitude problem. Get used to it, there is always something out there that can kill you, sometimes even relatively easily. Does that mean we should change everything that can possible defeat you?

Ideally, every character should have something that they can use against every other character. The issue with the above is that they work against a much wider range of possible foes compared to other abilities, and work more often as well. I'd like to think that the server as a whole is a little more mature then simply condemning a certain skill because they were defeated by it.

Mr T wrote:

As to dirty fighting, it is actually a decent feat at lower levels that allows you to do more damage until you get to two attacks per round.

So... Till level 5 for a high AB progression class? Getting to level 5 is usually around 3 play sessions for me, with RP and food/toilet breaks thrown in. And considering you're regretting it for the rest of your levels...

For a low progression, which would probably gain the most use from it, it remains useful to level 11. But these classes (PM, Sorc, and Wiz) arn't likely to be engaging in melee combat anyway.

For Mid progression, it may be a viable choice, but they're still going to regret it after level 7.

Mr T wrote:

As for 'optional feats' who decides that? You? the balance team? Do we only care about feats that are used alot? (It which case why spoil the fun of those that use Timestop, Dev Crit, GS just because you can't counter it.

PS Dirty fighting has no application as is optional or ''roleplay'' only because it's subpar.

Mr T

I think its decided by the playerbase. How many people get Circle Kick? Or Blinding Speed (Assuming its not fixed)? People see these feats as near-useless build-wise, and thus consider them to be RP feats.
If fixed, they may become at least viable build-wise, and this will in turn increase the number of people taking them. More viable feats means more people who arn't quite willing to "waste" a feat on RP may chose to take the feat, increasing the variety and uniqueness of the characters on the server. The super-dedicated to their characters will always take these feats. What we should aim to do is increase the "options" for those not so hardcore.

All that said, it does have some interesting RP uses. 1d4 is the same damage as a dagger. Maybe you've punched them in the stomach then knifed them? ;D

Some monumental point missing here :lol:

"Why do GS and Dev Crit need changing but dirty fighting doesn't?" is actually a very good question. In terms of mechanical power, they are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum. You could just as easily argue that, if you bring GS, Dev crit down that spectrum, you should raise dirty fighting up from the pit its currently languishing in.

Oh, and to say: "Dirty Fighting doesn't need changing because it has absolutely no application at this present time. The moment it has application and is used, then it will likely need to be fiddeled with and such" is silly.

Garnith, I agree with alot of what you just said. Yes it is the playerbase that decides what's 'good' and what's 'bad' when it comes to feats, skills, classes etc. If it was upto me I would try to improve the poorer/less used choices and weaken the 'must have choices'.

However amia doesn't work that way. What happens is a change is proposed, it's ignored/ridiculed/accused of upsetting balance and then forgotten. Until whichever Dev, DM, balance monkey sees it realises it maybe a good idea and implements change...usually months to years later (see shifter changes, Dev Crit, GS and other upcoming spell nerfs). The fact that the same is occurring over dirty fighting - arguably amongst the poorest feats in the game - is telling.

A better method would be change is suggested, it is *constructively criticized* ie ideas are encouraged and explored, and a consensus is reached. The actual implementation (or not) is then left to Disco/DM's. Avoids all the wailing and teeth gnashing that usually accompanies such topics. With that said, it's not a priority leave it as a roleplay feat cause nobody cares about those.

Mr T

Mr T wrote:

A better method would be change is suggested, it is *constructively criticized* ie ideas are encouraged and explored, and a consensus is reached. The actual implementation (or not) is then left to Disco/DM's. Avoids all the wailing and teeth gnashing that usually accompanies such topics. With that said, it's not a priority leave it as a roleplay feat cause nobody cares about those.

Mr T

Constructive criticism is used in the forums, but it sometimes gets drowned out by off topic conversations and people with set, un-yeilding points of view. If a thread is kept going, however, it will eventually get there.

On that note, has anyone worked out a reasonable way for Dirty Fighting to be changed? One we can all agree on? Till then, just fire ideas around till one turns out to suit all parties.

I do agree that some feats are way over powered and should be looked at and tweaked (even though it sucks sometimes), but I also agree that there are feats such as Dirty Fighting that are so grossly underpowered and should be looked at as well and tweaked accordingly given the opportunity. This includes all feats that are underpowered. Not that I think they should be taken head on all willy nilly but they should be brought up as this one has and weigh the pros and cons to it and see the value of it both RP wise and game wise, because let's face it, this is a game. Dirty Fighting is one of those feats that many people would take to enhance their character and their RP if it had application beyond a few levels. Roleplaying you fight dirty is great but when it comes down to actually fighting with the feat it's useless and won't be used, so then just having the feat to say you fight dirty is rather superfluous unless it is adjusted to reflect what it should be. I am personally awful at the game mechanics and as such have no ideas of my own to benefit the feat but I would want to see it updated to a more reasonable choice to take.

Yurell wrote:

I think it's generally agreed by the balance mob that both are OP (although I'd likely need one of said experts to confirm).

There are those who disagrees with the level of overpoweredness which has been portrayed in regards to Dev Crit and GS.

Read: Me.

Mr T wrote:

(It which case why spoil the fun of those that use Timestop, Dev Crit, GS just because you can't counter it.

Both GS and Dev Crit can easily be countered.

Garnith wrote:

On that note, has anyone worked out a reasonable way for Dirty Fighting to be changed?

Mosh's.

We're not asking that this feat becomes so (pre)epicly awesome that everyone should take it. Just make it so that it can atleast be taken for fun without you getting stomped in PvM and PvP alike. Fact is, you run this, you die unless you have loads of AC, the kind that flows out of your arse that people pick up and make into potions. If this argument isn't going to be constructive or all of the balance team dubs it unneeded, I think we can pretty much agree to lock this and forget it.

Nope

I would like to see Dirty Fighting improved to 1d4 damage without the APR penalty. You lock this I push for it elsewhere.

Why?

Because it means Rogues, Assassins, Monks etc don't have to always take fighter to get extra damage. Purely from a Mechanics thing that.

If only items could be made that need to check for feats (like dirty fighting) then that would open up even more possibilities.

MoshingChris wrote:

Nope

I would like to see Dirty Fighting improved to 1d4 damage without the APR penalty. You lock this I push for it elsewhere.

Why?

Because it means Rogues, Assassins, Monks etc don't have to always take fighter to get extra damage. Purely from a Mechanics thing that.

If only items could be made that need to check for feats (like dirty fighting) then that would open up even more possibilities.

Why SHOULD monks, rogues and assassins get extra damage? Their skills lie elsewhere. They are NOT fighters. A fighters whole game is damage!

Yeah, if it is changed it'll probably be your suggestion but mind you, it
a) sounds boring as hell,
b) Shouldnt really be called dirty fighting at all.

I'd sooner not change anything because there are at least seven more important things to get changed ASAP.

what about this: reverse power attack/expertise

+5ab
-5dmg

or

+5ab
-5ac

No. No no no.

+5AB and only losing five damage? *Eyes light up*

blackvswhite wrote:

what about this: reverse power attack/expertise

+5ab
-5dmg

Horribly overpowered.

Quote:

Both GS and Dev Crit can easily be countered.

I don't know why you are arguing this with me. I know they can be very easily countered...

Mr T

Because you said so?

Another fundamental misunderstanding...

I think Mr T meant you in the singular sense as opposed to plural.

lol jeeze :roll:

Mr T is having a brainfart.

He wrote that they can't be countered in his earlier post. When I corrected him, stating that they can be easily countered, he then said that he already knew this... and questioned why I would argue it.

Uhm.... yeaahh.

English comprehension 101 :roll:

Quote:

PS Selvec there are loads of counters to GS, and Dev crit. PM me and I tell you what they are.

Quote:

It which case why spoil the fun of those that use Timestop, Dev Crit, GS just because you can't counter it.

This does *not* mean uncounterable, it means you as in singular, personally etc. Then again it's all in the failing of the public school system...

PS You plural is usually written/read as 'one' in the english language.

PPS Brainfarts happen to you alot Mago... you might want to see someone about that. Or is it a symptom of advancing age?

Mr T

Yawn.

I won't be baited by you, cupcake. I've read a lot of your charms of wisdom in regards to balance and mechanics, and so far... you've been remarkably successful in proving that you haven't got much of a clue.

Mago does counter it. Easily.

Lol this is one time Mago is actually wrong. I wouldnt get too bothered about it Mr T. Correct English might not be his first language.

Last edited by Mr T on Sun, Mar 14 2010, 21:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

*Sigh* Whatever lets all join the Mago Chorus...

Here is some homework for you kids; what is the difference between the following:

In which case why spoil the fun of those that use Timestop, Dev Crit, GS just because you (singluar) can't counter it.

In which case why spoil the fun of those that use Timestop, Dev Crit, GS just because you (plural) can't counter it.

In which case why spoil the fun of those that use Timestop, Dev Crit, GS just because *one* can't counter it.

Anyway I don't mean to come off as a jerk, as english is not everyone's first language and even for native english speakers it can prove difficult.

PS As to the last attack...'Ad Hominem' argument methinks.

PPS Don't ever call me cupcake.

PPPS :lol:

This is the problem with Amia and certain individuals that post here. Instead of just, shock horror, asking me for clarification of what I meant. The first recourse of action is a quote and written attack. For no real reason at all except to score points. It is little wonder that the same old people post on here, why would a new person enter this piranha tank? It also makes a mockery of the whole 'improve forum conduct drive' that we had a few weeks back.

Mr T

How about we drop the personal insults and get back on topic?

Anyone else got ideas for Dirty Fighting?

TormakSaber wrote:

I'd sooner not change anything because there are at least seven more important things to get changed ASAP.

Last edited by jafman30 on Sun, Mar 14 2010, 21:30 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I like Mosh's idea of removing the function that takes away all other APRs. I would greatly like it if (Since it is Dirty Fighting.) it was given a Neutral and Evil only alignment. Not saying there aren't dirty fighting good guys...
EDIT::

TormakSaber wrote:

I'd sooner not change anything because there are more important things on the list.(Not exact wording.)

Pretty sure this doesn't need to be done ASAP. In fact, this should be on the bottom of the list.

No need to restrict the feat. Terrible, terrible idea.

I'm a Swede.

English isn't my first language.

As I said, you can't bait me, Mr T.

All you're doing is proving you're a dick. Which isn't really good for you.

Quote:

All you're doing is proving you're a (censored). Which isn't really good for you.

I'm the (censored)? Why did you attack me out of the blue then instead of just *asking* for clarification of my meaning? Also I was not being condescending, English is a tough language even for native speakers. It is a very imprecise language, with multiple meanings from one word. Oh and believe this or not but I had no idea you were a swede (guess I should of looked at your location huh).

Mr T

Shit happens, I suppose.

so instead of looking at ideas and trashing them, maybe we could adjust them to be more balanced?

Can we fiix the dozen other much much more important things first?

As I keep saying, this can just be added to the bottom of the list since it is purely an RP thing and not a balance problem or exploit fix.

Dirty fighting checking interest

Who is online