AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

What's the difference? I've thought I had it down a few times but I continue to be wrong. Educate me please? :-)

Logicality wrote:

What's the difference? I've thought I had it down a few times but I continue to be wrong. Educate me please? :-)

The Faithless are those who don't believe in the gods or only pay them lip-service. The False are those who betray their faith.

If a character doesn't believe Gods exist, he is ignorant and foolish. There are clerics in just about every town to replace healing fountains. If you expect to be an adventurer on amia, you should expect to eventually get some kind of wound. Good luck with the more serious ones without the help of a cleric who gets power from a being you don't think exists.

and just not following gods at all? not as bad, but still blech IMO... there are so many deities that you can surely find ~some~ God to suit ~something~ your character does. Like hunting? Like being in water? Are you a farmer? Do you like good luck? Do you travel? Do you dislike bad luck? Do you like to cuddle? Do you like dragons, orcs, goblins, kobolds, or spiders? There are gods for those.

its fine to not have a patron God, but to not worship any of them? who raised you? wolves? (but then again, you might follow one of many nature deities)

Yurell wrote:

Logicality wrote:

What's the difference? I've thought I had it down a few times but I continue to be wrong. Educate me please? :-)

The Faithless are those who don't believe in the gods or only pay them lip-service. The False are those who betray their faith.

Faithless is specifically "Atheist", as far as I know. Lip service falls under False.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Logicality wrote:

What's the difference? I've thought I had it down a few times but I continue to be wrong. Educate me please? :-)

The Faithless are those who don't believe in the gods or only pay them lip-service. The False are those who betray their faith.

Faithless is specifically "Atheist", as far as I know. Lip service falls under False.

According to Faiths and Avatars (p. 3) lip-service counts as Faithless.

Not to mention in my example the guy never worshipped any god to begin with, so being one of the False doesn't make any sense.

I honestly think many of the people saying it is stupid, being that only a mad PC or a stupid 'PC', would not worship a god of some kind are missing the points being argued.

Clerics who heal: why can't a character believe they are deluded arcane magic users?

Clergy preaching about the afterlife: motivated by self interest? It is a reasonable thing to believe.

The fact that people are still quoteing terms from FR source books to vallidate their point does not help their argument. No one is disputing the published FR lore. What is disputed is the argument that a PC must be a bonafide nutcase or a dribbling idiot to not worship a god.

The reasoning behind this assertion has been stated repeatedly in this thread and do not need to be said again except to repeat that FR lore has little to do with it.

You could agure it is quite illerelevant what falls under what catagory since it is never a choice players will be forced to choose between.

For most beings its something Kelemvor decides when you arrive in the dead city and not really something mortals can know about. I am sure its something a theoretic argument between established clerics.

Quote:

FR lore has little to do with it.

It has everything to do with it. Since its FR.

You don't have to worship a specific diety but only gibbering nutcase insane asylum chaps wouldn't believe in the actions of dieties that take place as a daily occurence.

Theres no argument there. Aestheism for all intents and purposes in Faerun by written canon and lore doesn't exist because Gods are proven to exist.

MoshingChris wrote:

Quote:

...by written canon and lore...

I don't think we are going to go much further with this discussion some how.

MoshingChris wrote:

Gods are proven to exist.

I don't think anyone is disputing this. It is certain that gods exist in FR, both IC and OOC. What is uncertain, IC, is what happens when you die. You have no more than the word of your neighbor to trust, in that matter.

It's not uncertain. The entire churches of Jergal and Kelemvor make sure that everyone knows about it, so they're less afraid and freaked out when it happens. It's in Kelemvor's dogma, even.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's not uncertain. The entire churches of Jergal and Kelemvor make sure that everyone knows about it, so they're less afraid and freaked out when it happens. It's in Kelemvor's dogma, even.

I think the point he was making is that the Church is just that, a Church. It can tell you what it believes (or knows?) Kelemvor will do. Wether or not the individual trusts the clergy is another matter.

The Incognitos wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

It's not uncertain. The entire churches of Jergal and Kelemvor make sure that everyone knows about it, so they're less afraid and freaked out when it happens. It's in Kelemvor's dogma, even.

I think the point he was making is that the Church is just that, a Church. It can tell you what it believes (or knows?) Kelemvor will do. Wether or not the individual trusts the clergy is another matter.

Thats what I have gone with from RP events. I have a character who is more inclinded to believe a devil about afterlife since they claim to have seen The Wall literally than a cleric of Jergal who preaches it. Doesn't mean it's all the correct veiwpoints, not unskewed, or deception.

But besides Kelemvore's and Jergal's to preach; there are Devils and Demons who can and do travel by The Wall; demons raid it and devils try to contract souls at the last minute [at least, according to lore I've seen, I hope it's the correct versions Amia uses].

But with planar travel, to a limited extent it's possible to see what death is without dying then isn't it?

Torzeng wrote:

The Incognitos wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

It's not uncertain. The entire churches of Jergal and Kelemvor make sure that everyone knows about it, so they're less afraid and freaked out when it happens. It's in Kelemvor's dogma, even.

I think the point he was making is that the Church is just that, a Church. It can tell you what it believes (or knows?) Kelemvor will do. Wether or not the individual trusts the clergy is another matter.

Thats what I have gone with from RP events. I have a character who is more inclinded to believe a devil about afterlife since they claim to have seen The Wall literally than a cleric of Jergal who preaches it. Doesn't mean it's all the correct veiwpoints, not unskewed, or deception.

But besides Kelemvore's and Jergal's to preach; there are Devils and Demons who can and do travel by The Wall; demons raid it and devils try to contract souls at the last minute [at least, according to lore I've seen, I hope it's the correct versions Amia uses].

But with planar travel, to a limited extent it's possible to see what death is without dying then isn't it?

All of this may be true: does the PC believe what they are told?

In FR, believing the stuff you're told about the gods and the afterlife is a bit like being told about and believing in gravity in our world. There's solid evidence and people who have seen it all to prove it in FR.

You haven't seen, say, x-ray radiation with your own eyes, but you got a bunch of scientists and x-ray technicians who tell you it's real. The churches in FR are the same.

Of course, you can still disbelieve (there are people in this world who do), but that just makes you crazy. It doesn't make you the lone, radical intellectual looking for a deeper truth. It just means you're off your rocker.

Nekh, there are some very smart people who believe in scientology.

A person who pays lip service can be faithless or false. Faithless if they're doing it but don't even believe in the god and false if they do it but don't mean it or prove that they mean it through action.

Faithless people would have to be rare. There simply can't be -that- many stupid people who can't see the obvious... I hope? I'm sure there are tons of false believers though.

Last edited by Azrael on Sun, Mar 07 2010, 10:56 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Nekhy wrote:

You haven't seen, say, x-ray radiation with your own eyes, but you got a bunch of scientists and x-ray technicians who tell you it's real. The churches in FR are the same.

Actually that was a guy sitting under a tree when an apple fell on his head. Ta-da, gravity theory. xD

(ok yes i know i'm spamming, sry ^^)

The Incognitos wrote:

Clerics who heal: why can't a character believe they are deluded arcane magic users?

Clerics don't just happen to be. They get education, they are trained, they get indoctrinated to the dogma of their patron. They invoke prayers to the gods to get that fancy stuff.

During the Time of Troubles the gods themself walked on the Prime, they are a known to exist, not only just by the rantings of the churches.

hendrack wrote:

During the Time of Troubles the gods themself walked on the Prime, they are a known to exist, not only just by the rantings of the churches.

And just to reiterate that was only twenty years ago.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Nekh, there are some very smart people who believe in scientology.

Intelligence or rational thinking doesn't correlate with sanity. In fact, in the case of scientology, I am not surprised it attracts smart people. It's a very rational brainwash... umm, belief system, that really makes sense when you learn it from bottom to top. Scientology is cargo cult science, it comes in a package that is identical to sciences. You have to learn a lot of little details about biology to understand genetics, for example. Same applies to scientology. The difference is, that scientology's pretty shell is empty and doesn't work when put into test, unlike in the case of biology.

But that's really off topic now.

TormakSaber wrote:

It's not uncertain. The entire churches of Jergal and Kelemvor make sure that everyone knows about it, so they're less afraid and freaked out when it happens. It's in Kelemvor's dogma, even.

Actually, I disagree a bit. I think "life after death" is still on uncertain terms with the grander portion of society, but the new Church of Kelemvor is struggling to bring people into the light of knowledge and out of the dark ages of Myrkullian/Jergalian death cults of mystery. For the percentage of people they've managed to convince (which I do not believe is a majority), it is not uncertain, but I still think it is uncertain for a lot of folks. Which is why the Kelemvorites have to keep doggedly doing what they do. Reaching out and explaining things, as Kelemvor wants them to do.

He's been a deity for less than a generation. Give him one full generation, and it will be that much closer to being more universally certain.

Yossarin wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

It's not uncertain. The entire churches of Jergal and Kelemvor make sure that everyone knows about it, so they're less afraid and freaked out when it happens. It's in Kelemvor's dogma, even.

Actually, I disagree a bit. I think "life after death" is still on uncertain terms with the grander portion of society, but the new Church of Kelemvor is struggling to bring people into the light of knowledge and out of the dark ages of Myrkullian/Jergalian death cults of mystery. For the percentage of people they've managed to convince (which I do not believe is a majority), it is not uncertain, but I still think it is uncertain for a lot of folks. Which is why the Kelemvorites have to keep doggedly doing what they do. Reaching out and explaining things, as Kelemvor wants them to do.

He's been a deity for less than a generation. Give him one full generation, and it will be that much closer to being more universally certain.

i would like to see a quote where it says the kelemvor faith is struggling...cause i cant find it anywhere

and the wall of souls isnt a new thing..its like telling people in the middleages that pergatory does exist...and then after a few hundreds of years a man comes along and shows them proof of it..kelemvor would have that effect, not to mention those who have been brought back, the devine servants of all the gods, the gods themselves who preach true worships, and what happens to false ones..its a scarefactor for all the gods...do as i command or by god, ill let you rot in the wall of souls...some might put it more deligate than that..but im under the firm conviction that faith in most churches, most certainly the Lawfull ones is one where you are lectured on what happens to none belivers.

*edited

i dontbelive there is any mystery to death in faerun *Shrugs*

Actually, there were millenia where Jergal kept everything a mystery, Myrkuul clouded the border between dead and undead and Cyric, well ... Cyric did what Cyric usually does and made a bloody mess.

Kelemvor is the first to try and make death transparent, and as such the story his clergy has been telling has only been going around for the past twenty years, which is much less than a generation and certainly not long enough to have necessarily profound impact on already established beliefs.

Yurell wrote:

Actually, there were millenia where Jergal kept everything a mystery, Myrkuul clouded the border between dead and undead and Cyric, well ... Cyric did what Cyric usually does and made a bloody mess.

Kelemvor is the first to try and make death transparent, and as such the story his clergy has been telling has only been going around for the past twenty years, which is much less than a generation and certainly not long enough to have necessarily profound impact on already established beliefs.

and i ask again where does it say that kelemvors church is struggling....i was under the impression that there was MASS conversions at the deification of kelemvor and the years after leading to a vast immense church.

ur arguementation is flawed, as the church of cyric became a major power in a very very few years, greater gods are not unknown, nor are thier dogmas,...it would spread like wildfire that there is a new god of the dead, especially after cyrics insane reign...

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Actually, there were millenia where Jergal kept everything a mystery, Myrkuul clouded the border between dead and undead and Cyric, well ... Cyric did what Cyric usually does and made a bloody mess.

Kelemvor is the first to try and make death transparent, and as such the story his clergy has been telling has only been going around for the past twenty years, which is much less than a generation and certainly not long enough to have necessarily profound impact on already established beliefs.

and i ask again where does it say that kelemvors church is struggling....i was under the impression that there was MASS conversions at the deification of kelemvor and the years after leading to a vast immense church.

That's what happens when you take part of a quote out of context:
"but the new Church of Kelemvor is struggling to bring people into the light of knowledge and out of the dark ages of Myrkullian/Jergalian death cults of mystery."
That's an important part of the sentence - saying what it is struggling to do.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

ur arguementation is flawed, as the church of cyric became a major power in a very very few years, greater gods are not unknown, nor are thier dogmas,...it would spread like wildfire that there is a new god of the dead, especially after cyrics insane reign...

I didn't say Cyric's position was unknown, I'm saying he didn't exactly make it crystal-clear what happened after death (well, he sort of stuffed over established rules as well afaik).

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Actually, there were millenia where Jergal kept everything a mystery, Myrkuul clouded the border between dead and undead and Cyric, well ... Cyric did what Cyric usually does and made a bloody mess.

Kelemvor is the first to try and make death transparent, and as such the story his clergy has been telling has only been going around for the past twenty years, which is much less than a generation and certainly not long enough to have necessarily profound impact on already established beliefs.

and i ask again where does it say that kelemvors church is struggling....i was under the impression that there was MASS conversions at the deification of kelemvor and the years after leading to a vast immense church.

That's what happens when you take part of a quote out of context:
"but the new Church of Kelemvor is struggling to bring people into the light of knowledge and out of the dark ages of Myrkullian/Jergalian death cults of mystery."
That's an important part of the sentence - saying what it is struggling to do.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

ur arguementation is flawed, as the church of cyric became a major power in a very very few years, greater gods are not unknown, nor are thier dogmas,...it would spread like wildfire that there is a new god of the dead, especially after cyrics insane reign...

I didn't say Cyric's position was unknown, I'm saying he didn't exactly make it crystal-clear what happened after death (well, he sort of stuffed over established rules as well afaik).

sorry about the misquote, and my point wasnt about cyrics way of doing things, but how fast his religion grew after he took over, kelemvors religion and ways of doing things would be just as fast...

Kraniumbrud wrote:

sorry about the misquote, and my point wasnt about cyrics way of doing things, but how fast his religion grew after he took over, kelemvors religion and ways of doing things would be just as fast...

Indeed it would, and probably faster because Kelemvor's method is less reprehensible. His clergy would learn faster, but that doesn't mean they'd be able to teach everyone (or even the majority of people) about the 'new' afterlife in such a short period of time.

They're trying to do it as much as possible, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're capable of overriding existing understandings / beliefs in less than a generation, or even reaching everyone to override the existing beliefs.

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

sorry about the misquote, and my point wasnt about cyrics way of doing things, but how fast his religion grew after he took over, kelemvors religion and ways of doing things would be just as fast...

Indeed it would, and probably faster because Kelemvor's method is less reprehensible. His clergy would learn faster, but that doesn't mean they'd be able to teach everyone (or even the majority of people) about the 'new' afterlife in such a short period of time.

They're trying to do it as much as possible, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're capable of overriding existing understandings / beliefs in less than a generation, or even reaching everyone to override the existing beliefs.

*shrug*..i still say its idiotic (ic'ly speaking) to be faithless 8P

Kraniumbrud wrote:

*shrug*..i still say its idiotic (ic'ly speaking) to be faithless 8P

Yep, your character can say whatever he likes (and he's correct, as we know, about the advantages of being faithful). The point is that one can arrive at the conclusion that there's no evidence for anything said about the afterlife, and through reason alone. One is not "stupid" or "insane" for doubting that for which no actual evidence is readily available.

I can't really buy that doubting the power of the gods in the afterlife is at all like doubting the existence of gravity. For one, extent of power, and existence, are two completely different things, and one would have to be barmy to suggest that gods in FR don't exist. Secondly, gravity can be immediately and universally tested: throw an apple into the air and you'll find the principle "what goes up must come down", or something similar, to be true. To test the claims of those preaching about the afterlife... you either have to plane-shift, or die. And even if you plane-shift, you have no way of knowing that's actually where you go when you die.

Geez I'm almost sorry I started this topic... Been trying to read up but I lost track half way page 2... Maybe we should lock this, I got more then half a feeling this has become something concerning real life religious believes...

That's what it's coming off as to me as well.

In Forgotten Realms, unlike real life, the Gods' power is felt (by adventurers almost daily) through the actions of their Clerics. (I don't mean the mundane, I mean the divine powers of healing and similar)

Elsewise: Can you find another way to explain to me how people are spontaneously healed to full?

Meh you cant deny gods while their are walking light bulbs(clerics) that kill by a glance and raise the dead by one aswell. Neither can you deny magic since people throw fireballs as if it is nothing, pah its only a 3th tier spell.

And:

Torzeng wrote:

But besides Kelemvore's and Jergal's to preach; there are Devils and Demons who can and do travel by The Wall; demons raid it and devils try to contract souls at the last minute.

Devils make a deal with kelemvor about wicked souls, if kelemvor allows it their taken to the nine hells!

phalanxyrian wrote:

Torzeng wrote:

But besides Kelemvore's and Jergal's to preach; there are Devils and Demons who can and do travel by The Wall; demons raid it and devils try to contract souls at the last minute.

Devils make a deal with kelemvor about wicked souls, if kelemvor allows it their taken to the nine hells!

I'm pretty sure the deal he has with devils is only that they can offer contracts to the false inside the city, within X days after them dying. (Since something supposedly happens after X days of being dead)

Read this.
http://www.nj-pbem.com/data/Gods/Gods.htm

Grymia wrote:

That's what it's coming off as to me as well.

In Forgotten Realms, unlike real life, the Gods' power is felt (by adventurers almost daily) through the actions of their Clerics. (I don't mean the mundane, I mean the divine powers of healing and similar)

Elsewise: Can you find another way to explain to me how people are spontaneously healed to full?

Has anyone, in the last two pages, actually argued that a reasonable person might deny the gods' existence? They do exist in FR, and people who deny that are loonies.

The point, however, is that unless a given person in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting has actually died, there is no way to know whether the dribble spouted by priests (or even gods) about the afterlife is true. I would imagine being raised from the dead is fairly rare among the vast majority of people in this setting, so the vast majority of people have every reason not to believe what they are told of the afterlife.

And of course, those that have died and lived to tell the tale (har, har) might question whether they ever actually died. If they become conscious and in their original, intact bodies, what is to say visions of the afterlife were not merely delusions of the nearly-dead? Indeed, even if one accepts the physical death of one's body, in FR, one must reconsider what it actually means to die.

OOC-ly saying that a character is barmy if he does not believe in the gods' afterlife is, quite frankly, ridiculous. They're wrong, yes, but they're not without reason.

And since it apparently can't be said enough: as for myself, I am speaking solely of the gods' dominion over the afterlife, not of their existence.

One thing that I seem to see getting blurred in this debate is that folks seem to be attempting to apply real world religious views and thought into this distinctly Fantasy world with its own unique twist on religions, the gods, afterlife outcomes, and even the celestial bodies. Gygax would more than likely be facepalming in his grave if he read this thread. [[Truth be told this has more turned into a thread better suited for discussing gods and afterlife possibilities in the Eberron setting.]] This is just a game folks. It has clearly defined rules on all this stuff already.

Quote:

...I am speaking solely of the gods' dominion over the afterlife, not of their existence.

That can't be done effectively given the setting. I understand the statement and the difference between the two, but lets look at the Fae'run we play in: FRC of 3.5 follows this set up:gods=real->words/solid acts->dominion. We are playing in Fae'run during the post Time of Troubles setting. Gods walked, talked, fought, and recruited more faithful on the very plane itself and even random Joe-Bob the Farmer that lives way out in the back hills where they only get word of the rest of Fae'run via a talking crow that flies past once every year knows that they did. The gods' words were also as law. If they decreed something to happen, it did. So when they spoke of what happens when mortals die, they spoke truth (unless it was Shar, because we all know she told everyone it was all going to be cuddles hugs and rainbow Hershey's kisses... Liar.). Hence, when faced with solid evidence of their existence, and decrees echoed down from on high to their faithful as well as from the gods own mouths when they were among the population, it cannot then be conjectured with solid enough evidence (in relation to the setting) that they did not tell people the truth of what occurs in the afterlife and that their dominion over the afterlife is something that can be separated from their existence.

Side Note: Death has been clearly defined in the setting. NWN's Respawn feature and Amia rules are what make the area cloudy and allows for these seemingly large loopholes.

Well, unless you want permadeath for any character that dies solo and any peron or group tat dies off Amia Island since your chances of being found by help in time become almost nil.... we'll have to deal with it.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

*shrug*..i still say its idiotic (ic'ly speaking) to be faithless 8P

Oh, I'd agree with you (in fact I've spent the past three pages doing so). I was just agreeing with the notion that death is a mystery, not that the gods are.

hadeismetirion wrote:

Geez I'm almost sorry I started this topic... Been trying to read up but I lost track half way page 2... Maybe we should lock this, I got more then half a feeling this has become something concerning real life religious believes...

Why? There's no flaming going on, and people are enjoying the discussion.

Gravemaskin wrote:

phalanxyrian wrote:

Torzeng wrote:

But besides Kelemvore's and Jergal's to preach; there are Devils and Demons who can and do travel by The Wall; demons raid it and devils try to contract souls at the last minute.

Devils make a deal with kelemvor about wicked souls, if kelemvor allows it their taken to the nine hells!

I'm pretty sure the deal he has with devils is only that they can offer contracts to the false inside the city, within X days after them dying. (Since something supposedly happens after X days of being dead)

From Hendrack's Link:
"THE BAATEZU - devils lurk in small enclaves within the Fugue Plane. By agreement with Kelemvor, the god of the dead, they cannot harm or trick the waiting souls of the just-dead. However, they are allowed to explain to the soul its condition and may bargain with it. The baatezu have a great desire for souls, whom they use to create lemures (the lowest sort of devil) which over time are transformed into more powerful entities in the service of the Nine Hells."

Generally they make the deals with people who fear what fate is awaiting them, since if you'd been a goody-two-shoes, you'd have no reason to go with the devils as you'd get to live with your patron deity.

I thought I saw word "sex" somewhere here...

TeroSNS wrote:

I thought I saw word "sex" somewhere here...

Nope. Ctrl + F is your friend.
Unless you mean the word 'sexual', which is in Iron's signature.

ah, so it seems
*nods and leaves the actual conversation to those who are interested in it*

This seems to have boiled down to an argument that says:

"individuals(IC PCs) can use their own reason or lack there of to conclude that the afterlife cannot be defined beyond a shadow of a doubt, irregardless of the unquestioned existence of gods"

vs

"The lore says you have to have a spiritual position defined by gods and must assume you know what happens when you die".

So, how much latitude are we allowed in our characters development? If both of these statements are true we have a problem.

As I've said repeatedly, I think the argument that everyone knows (not has a faith that tells them) what happens when they die is untennable. I will abandon this position if someone can show me how a PC could have absolute knowledge of the afterlife without experiencing it first hand.

When I say absolute I mean proof that does not rely on preaching, tradition, writings or any other source that they cannot experience first hand.

Planar moving to the Fugue and the City of the Dead.

Existence of gods - you believe or you're an idiot, the proof is irrefutable

The Afterlife - much more tricky. Over the past generation there have been three new gods of death, each saying different things. The Church of Kelemvor has only its word that what happens after death is true (although the other churches would likely be propounding this as well). However, you have no solid proof, and there have been many beliefs created before Kelemvor came along and tried to make it transparent. Thus it is plausible to not believe the fate after death, although it is reasonable to assume the gods have always been telling everyone to worship them or they would suffer after death.

Edit: @ Tormak.
Not everyone can do it, and it has still only been twenty years since Kelemvor has taken over. These things take time.

He asked how a PC could do it. If anyone is going to accomplish it, it's a PC.

Faithless

Who is online