AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Moonangel wrote:

Spending eternity in the afterlife serving as a slave to a god isn't a better fate, depending on how you look at it.

I don't remember that from anywhere in the Bible. However, that's exactly what you become in FR after you die. You become a servant to your God.

@Yurrel: You can't know what reason someone might have to be faithless. It may very well be a bloody good reason and it absolutely doesn't mean that the person is crazy and an idiot. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Furthermore, even if there's no proof God(the RL one) exists, there's also no proof that he doesn't. And as I said, atheists take an active risk of spending eternity in Hell. Now isn't that a bit crazy since there's no way they could possibly know with 100% certainty that they are right?
I'm not propagating anything here, and I don't want to continue this religious discussion. Everyone has a right to his/her own belief.

Very Svensk wrote:

And as Yurell said, the gods "WALKED" The earth... That's something, allright

People who were born after that period know it only from tales. The same way you and me 'know'(believe/don't believe.. whatever) that God walked the earth in our world. As for your other comment on proof... I'm not even going to comment that utterly ridiculous and arrogant statement. :roll:

All I'm trying to say is that you can't outright label someone an idiot in FR just because they are faithless. I'm sure we can all agree on that.

ICly you can do whatever you want.

Polris wrote:

Furthermore, even if there's no proof God(the RL one) exists, there's also no proof that he doesn't. And as I said, atheists take an active risk of spending eternity in Hell. Now isn't that a bit crazy since there's no way they could possibly know with 100% certainty that they are right?
I'm not propagating anything here, and I don't want to continue this religious discussion. Everyone has a right to his/her own belief.

That is not a comparison. IRL there is absolutely no evidence either way as to god's existence, and many things in the religion do have evidence against it (the age of the Earth, for example). In FR you have concrete proof that the gods do exist - just like RL gravity, or electricity.
Can you honestly say you'd deny the existence of these things?

Polris wrote:

Very Svensk wrote:

And as Yurell said, the gods "WALKED" The earth... That's something, allright

People who were born after that period know it only from tales. The same way you and me 'know'(believe/don't believe.. whatever) that God walked the earth in our world. As for your other comment on proof... I'm not even going to comment that utterly ridiculous and arrogant statement. :roll:

I'm quite sure the Time of Troubles was only twenty years ago

Polris wrote:

All I'm trying to say is that you can't outright label someone an idiot in FR just because they are faithless. I'm sure we can all agree on that.

I disagree, just like in real life I'd call anyone in a Western country an idiot if they didn't believe electricity existed.

Last edited by Moonangel on Fri, Mar 05 2010, 22:45 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I thought faithless is someone who does not worship gods, not someone who denies their existence? The later would be stupid, the former can be reasoned.

There's really no similarity between Faerun religion and real life religion, Faerun gods are actual powerful beings which can and do manifest their influence while real life religion is just a bunch of tales and legends.

Moonangel wrote:

I thought faithless is someone who does not worship gods, not someone who denies their existence? The later would be stupid, the former can be reasoned.

Indeed, but my characters would still call them idiots. You have the promise of eternal damnation or worse, and the empirical evidence that they have the powers to carry it out.
The only excuse I can imagine (that my characters would accept of course) is seeking your own immortality, as an immortal need not necessarily be concerned with such reprisals.

ICly you can do whatever you like, but don't expect orthodox characters to be happy with those who laugh at the gods, because that is a bad sign (last thing you want to hear is someone badmouthing the idea of Tymora when you're out hunting, for example).

Alright, every single faithless person you meet is an idiot. Direct him to the nearest temple so he can get proper attention and care. If that's too much trouble for you just kill the poor bastard and loot his dead corpse since no one's gonna miss a stupid unbeliever and you need not fear any retribution from a higher power.

Of course, you should also know that people stopped making babies after the Time of Troubles but new people appear frequently in baby form knowing all about the troubled times as if they were actually there to witness it.

Also, if you meet an atheist, tell him the story of electricity and he will convert almost instantly. A presentation with light bulbs will guarantee a conversion provided that your atheist is not flawed (read: he must be an idiot)

Polris wrote:

Alright, every single faithless person you meet is an idiot. Direct him to the nearest temple so he can get proper attention and care. If that's too much trouble for you just kill the poor bastard and loot his dead corpse since no one's gonna miss a stupid unbeliever and you need not fear any retribution from a higher power.

Umm, murder often does carry retribution from a higher power.

Polris wrote:

Of course, you should also know that people stopped making babies after the Time of Troubles but new people appear frequently in baby form knowing all about the troubled times as if they were actually there to witness it.

Basically everyone on Amia is an adult,putting them at at least fifteen years old. Something that happened in their parent's generation should be pretty well known - hell, I still believe in WW I and that was nearly a century ago. I think most people also believe in its existence except those I wouldn't hesitate to call an idiot IRL, just as my chars would call someone who denied the existence of the Godswar IC an idiot.
And for the record, fifteen years only applies to humans. Every single adult elf would have been alive at that time, as would every gnome and dwarf (the gnomes and dwarves would have been at least twenty at the time, and the elves around ninety).

Polris wrote:

Also, if you meet an atheist, tell him the story of electricity and he will convert almost instantly. A presentation with light bulbs will guarantee a conversion provided that your atheist is not flawed (read: he must be an idiot)

That is a completely different argument. I am comparing two real effects - just like I would not expect a child in Africa to necessarily believe in electricity.
Someone who denies the existence of gods in FR is like a Westerner denying the existence of electricity IRL - it is a real effect that cna be tested and measured empirically.
It is not at all like trying to convince an atheist that the gods exist using electricity.

Furthermore, my arguments about lightbulbs were an analogy for someone denying the existence of light without flame (IRL of course, in FR you could have a mage cast Light for you to equally disprove this notion).

And please don't use sarcasm.

I am not sure why either side continues this argument. Amia, and standard FR canon both place faithless as an extreme minority and also explains that you would have tohave negative mental modifiers pretty much, to actually believe that the gods do not exist and do not have the powers they are said to have.

Quote:

Also, if you meet an atheist, tell him the story of electricity and he will convert almost instantly. A presentation with light bulbs will guarantee a conversion provided that your atheist is not flawed (read: he must be an idiot)

Yes, and this happens every day in the Realms with Divine Magic.

There is proof that the gods exist and that they are powerful. However, unless one has died, one has no way of knowing whether these punishments or rewards in the afterlife are actual or fictitious. Of course, from an outside point of view, we know that, in FR, they are actual, but our characters have no way of knowing that. It is not unreasonable to assume that gods are just unimaginably powerful mortals gifted with incredible longevity. Only us players know it's incorrect.

If you could live forever and had godly power at your disposal, but your power (indeed, even your life) depended on the worship of mortals, would you not do anything in your power to get them to worship you? An analytical mind might ask this question, and come to the conclusion that all this hocus-pocus about punishments and rewards in the "afterlife" is a myth, a rumor spread by the gods to support the gods.

Yes, they're wrong. But certainly, with such a capability for analysis, they are not idiots.

In FR, if they had such a capability for analysis, they'd know they they're wrong and the gods are gods.

I suppose I wasn't clear on that point. One would be an absolute idiot to deny the existence of gods, or question their supreme power over mortals. Any reasonable thinker will accept that (in the context of this world). However, unless a given person has actually died and remembers doing so, it is impossible for that person to know anything about the "afterlife" to be definitively true.

So, to sum it up, yes, the gods are gods, and they are godly in the eyes of mortals. Defying them is a death sentence. What is uncertain is whether they actually have power in the afterlife.

(Granted, many mortals HAVE died, and perhaps they would know the fate of the dead in certain terms. Those that haven't cannot possibly know, though.)

To deny this possible and reasonable conclusion is to deny the sapience of characters in the world.

the wall of souls have been confirmed many times..and bhaal, the lord of the dead at the times of trouble...would happily share that terror story to everyone.....people know...and they probably would fear it alot...

Kraniumbrud wrote:

the wall of souls have been confirmed many times..and bhaal, the lord of the dead at the times of trouble...would happily share that terror story to everyone.....people know...and they probably would fear it alot...

I thought he was lord of death, not of the dead. In the Time of Troubles Myrkuul was in charge, at least that's what I thought.

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

the wall of souls have been confirmed many times..and bhaal, the lord of the dead at the times of trouble...would happily share that terror story to everyone.....people know...and they probably would fear it alot...

I thought he was lord of death, not of the dead. In the Time of Troubles Myrkuul was in charge, at least that's what I thought.

whups my bad, yes bhaal was the lord of murder..not the dead...sorry for the mistake...but myrkul would happily make the same point..being just as insane or even worse

I think it went Jergal ->Myrkuul -> Cyric (briefly) -> Kelemvor

Quote:

the wall of souls have been confirmed many times

How? Sorry, I'm not very familiar with FR lore.

Logicality wrote:

Quote:

the wall of souls have been confirmed many times

How? Sorry, I'm not very familiar with FR lore.

Myrkul was spreading his own power as fast as he could...his terror would include mentioning the threat that all must face...also with so many gods, walking the earth...it would have been confirmed from many sources, especially as it is a essential part of faerun religion, also..the wall of souls kinda encompasses why the gods where cast down the first place, they didnt care about their followers, a reminder of the wall of souls would indeed enforce the "GET A GOD" attitude that faerun religion is all about.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Logicality wrote:

Quote:

the wall of souls have been confirmed many times

How? Sorry, I'm not very familiar with FR lore.

Myrkul was spreading his own power as fast as he could...his terror would include mentioning the threat that all must face...also with so many gods, walking the earth...it would have been confirmed from many sources, especially as it is a essential part of faerun religion, also..the wall of souls kinda encompasses why the gods where cast down the first place, they didnt care about their followers, a reminder of the wall of souls would indeed enforce the "GET A GOD" attitude that faerun religion is all about.

I thought it was caused by the theft of the Tablets of Fate?

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Logicality wrote:

Quote:

the wall of souls have been confirmed many times

How? Sorry, I'm not very familiar with FR lore.

Myrkul was spreading his own power as fast as he could...his terror would include mentioning the threat that all must face...also with so many gods, walking the earth...it would have been confirmed from many sources, especially as it is a essential part of faerun religion, also..the wall of souls kinda encompasses why the gods where cast down the first place, they didnt care about their followers, a reminder of the wall of souls would indeed enforce the "GET A GOD" attitude that faerun religion is all about.

I thought it was caused by the theft of the Tablets of Fate?

it was started by that yes..but read on in the line it says that AO was Angry with the gods for their habitual pursuit of power and negligence toward their mortal faithful, Lord Ao relegated every god (except for the guardian god Helm, selected to protect the gates to the heavens) to walk among their followers on the earth.

Yurell wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

Some people may think the gods meddle in human affairs, and therefore opt out of giving even lip service.

I may be mixing up terms here, but aren't those the False, not the Faithless?

Yes. That is why I said the Faithless are the ones who opt out of paying lip service, which would make them False.

Mea culpa, I misinterpreted your statement. Thanks for clearing it up.

Their are several isrealites who decided they didnt beleive in God, even though they had seen God or seen his actions actually manifested.

You can be faithless, thats cool, how do you get brought back from the dead, and I have no love for the standard godless clerics/bgs or the like.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Their are several isrealites who decided they didnt beleive in God, even though they had seen God or seen his actions actually manifested.

You'd have to take that up with the author of the book. Since it also says that the Earth is 6000 years old (can't remember the exact number) and pi is exactly 3. Forgive me if I don't take it on face value.

@Logicality: Thank you, you are awesome. You are the only one who understood what I was trying to say. English is not my first language and I may have been unclear but I honestly think I wasn't.

@Yurrel: I used sarcasm because I got the feeling that you're fucking with me. I don't have to retype each of my previous posts in every new post I make so you would get what I'm saying. I'm not going in details with this, if you don't understand what I mean, re read. If you still don't understand re read and keep doing so till you do. (hint: 'higher power' as in a God, as in someone who doesn't give a rats ass about some 'mentally challenged' unbeliever)

@Tormak: You should also do some re reading as I was not talking about Faithless who deny the existence of Gods. Those people obviously are idiots. I was talking about people who for some odd reason don't believe, care or want Gods in their lives. And those people by all means don't have to be idiots to do so.

And if I remember right the Tablets of Fate were just the last drop, Ao was mostly upset that the Gods were ignoring their worshipers and their portfolios. I think that it was only after the Time of Troubles that the 'new rule' got introduced about how a God can die if he doesn't have enough worshipers which lead to the creation of the Wall to ensure the Gods have enough worshipers. I might be wrong on this last part, it's been a long time.

Polris wrote:

@Yurrel: I used sarcasm because I got the feeling that you're (censored) with me. I don't have to retype each of my previous posts in every new post I make so you would get what I'm saying. I'm not going in details with this, if you don't understand what I mean, re read. If you still don't understand re read and keep doing so till you do. (hint: 'higher power' as in a God, as in someone who doesn't give a rats ass about some 'mentally challenged' unbeliever)

I understand exactly what you mean. I just disagree.

Yurrel wrote:

I understand exactly what you mean. I just disagree.

Then please explain to me why would someone fear retribution from a God for killing a Faithless? If you can't then I'm afraid I'll have to remain by my original opinion that you're fucking with me.

Be nice...

And gods dont care enough about mortals to get all huffy for you killing one of their faithfuls.

Polris wrote:

Yurrel wrote:

I understand exactly what you mean. I just disagree.

Then please explain to me why would someone fear retribution from a God for killing a Faithless? If you can't then I'm afraid I'll have to remain by my original opinion that you're (censored) with me.

For the simple reason that if you murder someone, and you worship a good deity, you run the risk of becoming False. That's the sort of divine retribution I know I'd fear.

Ok, last post in this thread.

If you were worshiping a good deity then you would chose the first option and take the 'idiot' to the nearest temple. I think it was obvious that the second option of killing the 'idiot' was not reserved for Paladins.

And I swear to God, if you mention Fallen Paladins.... :twisted:

I'm out of this thread.

Polris wrote:

Ok, last post in this thread.

If you were worshiping a good deity then you would chose the first option and take the 'idiot' to the nearest temple. I think it was obvious that the second option of killing the 'idiot' was not reserved for Paladins.

And I swear to God, if you mention Fallen Paladins.... :twisted:

I'm out of this thread.

I didn't mention Paladins. I mentioned becoming False, not Fallen.

Polris wrote:

Ok, last post in this thread.

If you were worshiping a good deity then you would chose the first option and take the 'idiot' to the nearest temple. I think it was obvious that the second option of killing the 'idiot' was not reserved for Paladins.

And I swear to God, if you mention Fallen Paladins.... :twisted:

I'm out of this thread.

fallen paladins

Last edited by Polris on Sat, Mar 06 2010, 1:38 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Am I the one who's crazy here. Am I losing it? Is my engilsh that bad? Did anyone understand what I was talking about in that post?

EDIT:
@Kranium: Really nice flame bait there man. Too bad you wont get any pleasure out of it.

Now I'm really out of this thread. I don't need this shit.

Polris wrote:

Am I the one who's crazy here. Am I losing it? Is my engilsh that bad? Did anyone understand what I was talking about in that post?

I was referring specifically to divine retribution for murdering someone (as I made clear in my post) ... any one, regardless of class, that betrays their faith is regarded as False and is punished accordingly by Kelemvor.

Yurell wrote:

Polris wrote:

Yurrel wrote:

I understand exactly what you mean. I just disagree.

Then please explain to me why would someone fear retribution from a God for killing a Faithless? If you can't then I'm afraid I'll have to remain by my original opinion that you're (censored) with me.

For the simple reason that if you murder someone, and you worship a good deity, you run the risk of becoming False. That's the sort of divine retribution I know I'd fear.

No you don't.

TormakSaber wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Polris wrote:

Yurrel wrote:

I understand exactly what you mean. I just disagree.

Then please explain to me why would someone fear retribution from a God for killing a Faithless? If you can't then I'm afraid I'll have to remain by my original opinion that you're (censored) with me.

For the simple reason that if you murder someone, and you worship a good deity, you run the risk of becoming False. That's the sort of divine retribution I know I'd fear.

No you don't.

You don't? If your god's crede is against murdering, are you not betraying the faith? Or did I misunderstand the rules for becoming False?

Being false is generally an extreme thing that only happens post death when you are judged by Kelemvor to not only have been not rightfully paying the patron you claimed to worship his due AND didn't follow his dogma (say a Tyyran judge professing to worship Tyr in public, but never doing it, lying about it, and taking bribes) AND no other god wants to claim you. If you pretended to worship one, sometimes post detah Kelemvor decrees that in doing that you were following the dogma of another deity and assigns you to them. If no assigning and no claiming is made, you are judged False: Faithful but untruthful.

Sometimes Murder can be used as a tool to bring about good.

LEt's not get into that.

TormakSaber wrote:

Being false is generally an extreme thing that only happens post death when you are judged by Kelemvor to not only have been not rightfully paying the patron you claimed to worship his due AND didn't follow his dogma (say a Tyyran judge professing to worship Tyr in public, but never doing it, lying about it, and taking bribes) AND no other god wants to claim you. If you pretended to worship one, sometimes post detah Kelemvor decrees that in doing that you were following the dogma of another deity and assigns you to them. If no assigning and no claiming is made, you are judged False: Faithful but untruthful.

Ah, okay, the only place I could find about them was a throwaway line in Faiths and Avatars, saying that 'intentionally betraying one's faith' was sufficient.

Oh well, no need to worry about divine retribution then. Thank for clearing that up Tormak.

I will admit I didnt read all this. I just want to say I am against this. for the simple reason that my characters dont follow regilous a god, but Rideran for example, prays to a multitude of deities, mostly malar for good luck hunting. Tiamat for superior blood and stuff like that. Just because I dont have a deity I follow specificly doesnt mean I am completely faithless.

fjook wrote:

I will admit I didnt read all this. I just want to say I am against this. for the simple reason that my characters dont follow regilous a god, but Rideran for example, prays to a multitude of deities, mostly malar for good luck hunting. Tiamat for superior blood and stuff like that. Just because I dont have a deity I follow specificly doesnt mean I am completely faithless.

Seconded. As well as this, certain characters may be "between" gods, looking for a deity that represents their values before worshiping.

The Incognitos wrote:

Half Dragons and Epic Mages are supposed to be as rare as hens teeth according to conventional lore right? Elves are supposed to be wise, Drow are almost invariably evil, large cities don't let monsters roam the streets, etcetera...

This is amia, and it doesn't make sense if you compare it to any other kind of idea. Amia has its own set of rules which read - anything goes.

Moridan_X wrote:

This is amia, and it doesn't make sense if you compare it to any other kind of idea. Amia has its own set of rules which read - anything goes.

Hehe. I welcome you to test that claim in practise.

Nekhy wrote:

Hehe. I welcome you to test that claim in practise.

Come to think of it, I've always wondered where a lot of the boundaries are for characters on Amia. Does Amia have nudists? Does it have druggies? (Perfectly legal pipe herbs, anyone?) Does it have any number of other minorities from RL?

Garnith wrote:

Nekhy wrote:

Hehe. I welcome you to test that claim in practise.

Come to think of it, I've always wondered where a lot of the boundaries are for characters on Amia. Does Amia have nudists? Does it have druggies? (Perfectly legal pipe herbs, anyone?) Does it have any number of other minorities from RL?

Think you mean perfectly illegal holmes.

There's legal and illegal.

Logicality wrote:

There is proof that the gods exist and that they are powerful. However, unless one has died, one has no way of knowing whether these punishments or rewards in the afterlife are actual or fictitious.

This. It is an absolute truth. If someone is told anything by another it is as true as their trust of the others reason and motive, even if the 'another' in question is a God. So, the lore can say whatever it likes, but an individuals opinion of it is theirs alone. As Tormak said, you can do what you like IC.

By that rational you may feel free to treat someone as an idiot for not worshipping a diety, but make sure it's for IC reasons. I say this because the only IC reasons for the touted idiot treatment presented thus far rely heavily on OOC knowledge of all the gods in FR and their individual histories.

Well, considering much of the Church of Kelemvor regularly holds sermons about the afterlife in the very attempt to educate people about what happens when you die, I can't say being ignorant is very viable.

Not believing in the gods is stupid.

Not believng the dribble most clerics spout about them however is reasonable. Thus and intelligent person may decide to just not worship any god, but still know they exist.

The point of contention is what happens after you die. The fact that a person may choose to believe that most churchs spout nothing but propergandic drivle, adhere's to the fact that people may be faithless.

For example. John the Undead-Hunter may know Kelemvor exists. But his opinion on clergy and their self important crap is well known. He doesn't believe in the religious hooha they spout. He decides that while Kelemvor may exist, he's not going to worship him, he has better things to do then worship some big god that prefers to let his cleric blabber on about the importance of worshipping a god, instead of ridding the world of the damned.

He doesn't believe in the wall and what happens after death, and the rest of the gods are not of any note or concern to him. He would rather forge his own path through the power of his own might and will. He is faithless. Not because he denies the existence of the gods, but because he feels the tales of the wall are properganda by priests to make people worship their gods.

That makes him False, not Faithless.

Faithless

Who is online