AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

As I've read many times on the forum it's a rather suicidal move to be a faithless or atheist in the Forgotten Realms as then when you snuff it your soul ends up in the Wall. Generally considered a nasty place.

Dispite of this plenty of players choose this life style, get killed or pvp'ed and respawn again quite happily. Now it is possible to fill in your diety at character creation of have it filled in by praying to an idol. Currently the only use of this is in the prayer option. Couldn't that data be used to say make it very much less of an option to die without having a diety?

I'd actually would agree with that. Everyone knows of the wall and that you will horribly suffer there, no sane adventurer, especially when they face foes like Dragons, Undead, Mindflayers, or a combination of all these three, would go without some faith of perhaps being saved.

Perhaps, if there is no entry in the diety field, double the gold cost for respawning?

Then again does that open a lot of problems since people just can type something in there and play that they are faithless again. *shrug*

But the short term solution would be to increase the money cost. If it is possible.

"Plenty of players" is unquantifiable. You could just be making that up.

Money isn't worth anything. I mean once I'm past lv 15 my bets for anything I bet on is around 100.000

Rather more XP or even an entire level.

Yossarin wrote:

"Plenty of players" is unquantifiable. You could just be making that up.

Lets say 1 new player ever month gets that in their head. Isn't that to much already when something can be scripted against it.

Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Mar 03 2010, 16:25 PM, edited 1 time in total.

We don't have every possible patron in the system, and there's no need to encourage a narrow-minded monotheism even further. Because even if that's not what this would really imply, that's how people will interpret it. There's little merit in being forced from RPing Faithless to RPing Faithful wrong.

Last edited by Yossarin on Wed, Mar 03 2010, 16:26 PM, edited 1 time in total.

hadeismetirion wrote:

Lets say 1 new player ever month gets that in their head. Isn't that to much already when something can be scripted against it.

Nope.

Being faithless doesn't make it 'harder' to come back from death, or somehow more costly. Resurrections don't cost more for faithless people, unless there is some sort of deity discount no one haven't been told about.. that also somehow gives the same discount to everyone with a deity, no matter which one or how much power he/she/it has.

Faithless just means you'll definatly be in a lot of pain after death, but the same goes for a number of faithfuls to various deities. Everyone that die eventually one way or another, is absorbed into the plane of their chosen deity. The wall is just the fun optional way to go, that doesn't fuel a deity's plane, but a big freaky wall that demons come to play tug-o-war at from time to time.

It makes no sense lorewise, or otherwise.. the only exception I can think of is making it just for the heck of it, and forcing more people to pick a deity.

(and by the by, picking a deity to 'avoid death' would most likely earn you a place amongst the false at best, I believe. False are the pretenders, and they get to wander a city aimlessly, instead of going to the wall.. which begs the question, which is worse? Dying of boredom or by being sucked into a giant wall.)

I thought faithless cant be called back, just like elves. I may be wrong here though.

I remember reading somewhere that forced RP is bad form. That is exactly what a change like this implies.

If a person wants to play a character that doesn't believe in something why should they not? You might as well demand that evil PCs always lose because converntion demands it.

TormakSaber wrote:

It never makes sense for an FR person to not worship a god. Ever. Ever ever ever. Never recommend this to someone ever again, or my loremonkey will hurt you. :(

WonWon wrote:

All reasons that fall flat when you take two very obvious facts of data into account;

A - Deities Exist, are Proven to exist, and have their power quite readily demonstrated and shown to the world.

B - The Wall is quite well known about as a fate for those who don't worship a deity.

Worshipping a deity out of desparation to stop yourself from suffering an eternity of pain amidst a wall made of yourself and everyone around, is still worshipping a deity.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45719&start=0

I think my point has atleast some merrit to it.

How about this?

When you die you normally go to the Fugue plane but say there was another plane where dead faithless go. A hellish plane, sorta like a dungeon, and you have to find a... return stone? (forgot what it was called) which is randomly spawned somewhere in the area. And if you get killed in that plane you get one last chance to ask a deity of your choice to save you and you become his faithful servant in return. Of course there could be a dice roll to determine whether the deity hears or ignores your pleas.

Just an idea

hadeismetirion wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

It never makes sense for an FR person to not worship a god. Ever. Ever ever ever. Never recommend this to someone ever again, or my loremonkey will hurt you.

WonWon wrote:

All reasons that fall flat when you take two very obvious facts of data into account;

A - Deities Exist, are Proven to exist, and have their power quite readily demonstrated and shown to the world.

B - The Wall is quite well known about as a fate for those who don't worship a deity.

Worshipping a deity out of desparation to stop yourself from suffering an eternity of pain amidst a wall made of yourself and everyone around, is still worshipping a deity.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=45719&start=0

I think my point has atleast some merrit to it.

That is Tormak and Ron's point, which I agree with, not your point, which I do not. Your point is to burden a scripter or developer with an as-yet unnecessary task. The true Faithless or, worse, the atheist, will have consequences for their lifestyle during very special circumstances, when a DM is in direct control of their destiny. They will not become victims of an unfeeling, unthinking mechanism that can be beaten by a few simple keystrokes - a purely static and scripted environment.

Half Dragons and Epic Mages are supposed to be as rare as hens teeth according to conventional lore right? Elves are supposed to be wise, Drow are almost invariably evil, large cities don't let monsters roam the streets, etcetera...

If we are going to be have Lore Knights they should really get to work, they have quite a bit of cleaning to do.

EDIT: Tormak and Ron make a good point; the vast majority of FR people believe in the gods, why wouldn't they. That said I still don't understand why this MUST be the case.

It's also stupidly easy to forget to fill in that field or get lost trying to find the idol or just plain forget to ever go before level 10, not be able to find a party high enough to get through(Kossuth), or not be able to get a DM for some time.

To answer the original post, it's possible to have a new command to set the PC's deity, if it hasn't already been set by worshipping an idol. So that way you could even choose a deity that doesn't have an idol.

I don't think there should be any additional penalties for not having filled in some field or having worshipped a particular idol. If a PC is going to have an affinity for a particular deity, or no affinity for any deity, that is something to be developed through RP. Not all PCs are going to be equally devoted even when they have developed a liking for certain deity's dogma.

Still a game. Should be fun. Not into Lore-Nazis running the world legalistically. Just saying.

*is a lore nazi* i personally prefer idiots be treated like idiots (icly speaking) only one race in faerun is known for faithlessness and thats the Kir-Lanann, who loathes the gods on a racial level for thier cursed existance...pretty much anyone else who claims to be faithless should be viewed as close to insane in my oppion, faith is a essesntial part of faerun, this being said do pretty much what you want just dont change the lore, by claiming drows are accepted to walk the streets of waterdeep openly and that its stupid to worship the gods and then expect to be treated as a being of higher moral standards..cause your not.....thats just my 2 cents

PS. Democrasy does not exist in faerun

*edited

Kraniumbrud wrote:

*is a lore nazi* i personally prefer idiots be treated like idiots (icly speaking) only one race in faerun is known for faithlessness and thats the Kir-Lanann, who loathes the gods on a racial level for thier cursed existance...pretty much anyone else who claims to be faithless should be viewed as close to insane in my oppion, faith is a essesntial part of faerun, this being said do pretty much what you want just dont change the lore, by claiming drows are accepted to walk the streets of waterdeep openly and that its stupid to worship the gods and then expect to be treated as a being of higher moral standards..cause your not.....thats just my 2 cents

PS. Democrasy does not exist in faerun

*edited

I have to agree with Kranium on the first part.. *and I don't agree with her on much, so that ought say something*. Faith is essential in Forgotten Realms and I'm sorry there's little getting around that.

Faithlessness, has a price in the afterlife, a real, manifested price. While on Amia that Price cannot be forcibly exerted, I would like to think it's something people should still keep in mind in RP.

As for Democracy not existing, Kranium?

Whilst that is true by in Large, Cordor has been.. well.. we aren't going there quite yet but suffice to say the theory behind the princple has been shown to exist. (as well as universal tolerance, read Selune's dogma)

Amia, whilst as faithful to the lore as it can be, has it's own unique history, past and present. (and future ideally)

Spellplague. Beh.

This applies to faeries too! Who needs a deity when you live an immortal existance, with no afterlife?

Yossarin wrote:

They will not become victims of an unfeeling, unthinking mechanism that can be beaten by a few simple keystrokes - a purely static and scripted environment.

This. THIS.

We have replaced enough human interaction with game mechanics already. The Deity System is bad enough as is. I appreciate both the effort and the skillful implementation, but the idea that you need machines to control your creativity is just uninspiring. This will not improve RP in any genuine sense; whatever you do is irrelevant if you don't do it of your own free initiative.

IronAngel wrote:

We don't have every possible patron in the system, and there's no need to encourage a narrow-minded monotheism even further. Because even if that's not what this would really imply, that's how people will interpret it. There's little merit in being forced from RPing Faithless to RPing Faithful wrong.

I'm afraid I agree with Iron. Add to that that some of the deities are in places low level characters would have trouble going to, and that you can worship someone faithfully without visiting their idol.
Remember, Polytheism is not Monotheism + extra gods lying around.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

*is a lore nazi* i personally prefer idiots be treated like idiots (icly speaking) only one race in faerun is known for faithlessness and thats the Kir-Lanann, who loathes the gods on a racial level for thier cursed existance...pretty much anyone else who claims to be faithless should be viewed as close to insane in my oppion, faith is a essesntial part of faerun, this being said do pretty much what you want just dont change the lore, by claiming drows are accepted to walk the streets of waterdeep openly and that its stupid to worship the gods and then expect to be treated as a being of higher moral standards..cause your not.....thats just my 2 cents

PS. Democrasy does not exist in faerun

*edited

Idiots be treated like idiots? When does that cross the line from IC to OOC anger? Bear in mind that I am posing a question here not launching an attack.

It may be worth considering notions of spirituality as being (possibly) removed from notions of faith. The tone in your post gives the impression that anyone who does not know and conform to even the most obscure of FR lore (the Kir-Lanwhat?) is a substandered RPer and should be treated as such.

There are plenty of PCs and PC concepts that will clash with your own conception of the setting, but variety is the spice of life. If you openly shoot people down or engage them in thinly vieled IC 'lore lessons' it rapidly stagnates RP and invariably raises OOC tension; you are essentially using a proxy issue to criticizing their character concept.

IronAngel wrote:

Yossarin wrote:

They will not become victims of an unfeeling, unthinking mechanism that can be beaten by a few simple keystrokes - a purely static and scripted environment.

This. THIS.

We have replaced enough human interaction with game mechanics already. The Deity System is bad enough as is. I appreciate both the effort and the skillful implementation, but the idea that you need machines to control your creativity is just uninspiring. This will not improve RP in any genuine sense; whatever you do is irrelevant if you don't do it of your own free initiative.

I think it's more being ever-present eye over things which are normally overseen in a PnP environ which is poorly translated to a persistent world without a 1:1 DM player coverage 24x7. You take the things which you can monitor then cherry pick amongst those things which shouldn't be abused and should be kept on the straight and narrow, then controlling those through the Deus Ex Machina.

Because there's an opportunity for abuse or reason for control, here?

Mechanisms are always evil. Sometimes they're the lesser evil, but a human is always preferrable. In this case, there's no greater evil to avoid.

I'm just wondering where did you find the information that Faithless are rare in Forgotten Realms? I googled and googled and I couldn't find anything that would suggest they are rare.

I hope this wasn't just a random assumption.

Polris wrote:

I'm just wondering where did you find the information that Faithless are rare in Forgotten Realms? I googled and googled and I couldn't find anything that would suggest they are rare.

I hope this wasn't just a random assumption.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting p.232 is a good start, and most literature that I'm aware of supports it in general.

Would I be asking for too much if I asked you to copy/paste the part that says they are rare?

I'd have to retype it, so it will have to wait until I come back from class, sorry.

First I'll make clear - I could not find any reference specifying that the Faithless are rare. I do, however, draw that conclusion from passages in various books (I'll not speak of novels).

Firstly, in Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting it states "Most people of Toril worship more than one deity" (p. 232), insinuating that >50% worship more than one deity (if we take 'most' at its least value of the majority). This is also supported by Faiths and Avatars, stating "Most folk have a handful of powers that they regularly venerate" (p. 2) Powers and Pantheons also supports this on p. 3.

The facts that makes me consider that a greater majority believe that the gods do exist are:

1) None of the books I went through mentioned the Faithless, beyond one throw-away line in Faiths and Avatars (pp. 2-3). If they were a major representation of people I'd imagine there would be more suggestions of that, especially since basically every other context seems to assume that one worships a deity (even including Kelemvor's entry it is only mentioned that once);

2) If most people worship more than one deity, and there is much evidence that the deities are real, one could suppose that there would be at least as many people who worship only one deity as there are Faithless;

3) The number of people that believe in deities (but not actively worship) must be high also, since FRCS p. 6 states that "Only a fool" doesn't. Add to that the fact that there is evidence of their existence, one would imagine that those who believe in their existence far outweigh those who do not (although those who do worship multiple still outnumber all others).

I would also like to add that if we assume the world population roughly equivalent to Earth at the end of the second century A.D., and this having remained roughly consistent for two thousand years (or, rather, amounts to the equivalent of two thousand years throughout history)), only having 0.1% of the population Faithless gives enough bodies for a wall one metre across (easily enough to walk on) and ten metres tall (five rather tall men) of nearly five kilometre radius.

From this it seems a rather reasonable conclusion that that the Faithless are (relatively speaking) rare.

The death system on lalaland server was pretty awesome, it actually had an effect on your char and I you was of faith there was a small chance for you to be instantly raised at the end of combat don't know if this was included in pvp combat however.

jimbono1 wrote:

The death system on lalaland server was pretty awesome, it actually had an effect on your char and I you was of faith there was a small chance for you to be instantly raised at the end of combat don't know if this was included in pvp combat however.

Odd for the gods to give that much of a damn, and risk that much for a mortal.

The Incognitos wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

*is a lore nazi* i personally prefer idiots be treated like idiots (icly speaking) only one race in faerun is known for faithlessness and thats the Kir-Lanann, who loathes the gods on a racial level for thier cursed existance...pretty much anyone else who claims to be faithless should be viewed as close to insane in my oppion, faith is a essesntial part of faerun, this being said do pretty much what you want just dont change the lore, by claiming drows are accepted to walk the streets of waterdeep openly and that its stupid to worship the gods and then expect to be treated as a being of higher moral standards..cause your not.....thats just my 2 cents

PS. Democrasy does not exist in faerun

*edited

Idiots be treated like idiots? When does that cross the line from IC to OOC anger? Bear in mind that I am posing a question here not launching an attack.

It may be worth considering notions of spirituality as being (possibly) removed from notions of faith. The tone in your post gives the impression that anyone who does not know and conform to even the most obscure of FR lore (the Kir-Lanwhat?) is a substandered RPer and should be treated as such.

There are plenty of PCs and PC concepts that will clash with your own conception of the setting, but variety is the spice of life. If you openly shoot people down or engage them in thinly vieled IC 'lore lessons' it rapidly stagnates RP and invariably raises OOC tension; you are essentially using a proxy issue to criticizing their character concept.

perhaps you did not see the "(ic'ly speaking)" grow up..as for the kir'lalann, look them up in the lords of darkness, and if pc clashes then -I- reserve the rights to threat them how i want ICLY...and i will lecture them icly if i wishes too, just because you feel like your char should be treated diffretently dosnt mean you will get it that way...

*edited*

and the obscure lore has nothing to do with my claims, as the faithless in faerun are part of obscure lore only supports my arguements that ic'ly they should be viewed as nutters

Calm down. I said from the start I was just asking a question. Just be certain that disagreement on issues you regard as a lore-fact(OOC knowledge) do not intrude. You may lecture to high heaven if you wish... provided your PC is a lore master also.

As to the point about knowing obscure lore; You said the faithless are obscure lore... this does not help your argument. If someone had no idea about obscure lore then how would they know they were making a PC based on obscure lore?

The Incognitos wrote:

Calm down. I said from the start I was just asking a question. Just be certain that disagreement on issues you regard as a lore-fact(OOC knowledge) do not intrude. You may lecture to high heaven if you wish... provided your PC is a lore master also.

As to the point about knowing obscure lore; You said the faithless are obscure lore... this does not help your argument. If someone had no idea about obscure lore then how would they know they were making a PC based on obscure lore?

because the campaing setting clearly states that this is a land of gods...its that simple..and i do belive all my chars have a lore above -200..and thus can judge people to be idiots for not worshipping gods

Kraniumbrud wrote:

because the campaing setting clearly states that this is a land of gods...its that simple..and i do belive all my chars have a lore above -200..and thus can judge people to be idiots for not worshipping gods

You know... I bet Amia Island isn't in the original campaign setting. Does that mean it goes the way of Atlantis? Of course not. Stories are adaptable; the character in them, being us as players, should be also.

Personally, I may sound a little presumptios and if so I apologise, it sounds like you're are not wholly seperating the IC/OOC correction of perceived truth. If you widen your perspective you widen RP possibilites. I cannot see how this is a bad thing.

If not then I apologise; correct everyone you IC see.

People that choose to remain faithless are completely crazy and to quote House "idiot".

BUT

Such insanity would fall under Cyric's domain, and it's obvious they belong to him, wether they want to or not. :roll:

Shazaam! I solved the unsolveable. Maias will be pleased.

Best explanation ever Grave. =D

Gravemaskin wrote:

People that choose to remain faithless are completely crazy and to quote House "idiot".

BUT

Such insanity would fall under Cyric's domain, and it's obvious they belong to him, wether they want to or not. :roll:

Shazaam! I solved the unsolveable. Maias will be pleased.

uhhhh does that mean we can smite them for being cyrisits?

Shar, actually. She has open arms for the insane who reject conventional wisdom and society.

Yes, in Faerun, an atheist is, in my opinion, touched in the head. With the abundance of clerics performing the highly visual miraculous works of the gods, with the gods themselves having walked the earth in the Time of Troubles, with them even still taking an active and visible interest in various places of the world, to deny their existence requires a meticulous, thorough, and almost completely unsupported worldview to explain these occurrences in such a way that there no gods, and no acts of god.

Your average Faithless, however, is easier to get away with. The Faithless acknowledges the existence of the gods, but rejects them somehow, for some reason, and not necessarily always because there is any animosity. Some people may think the gods meddle in human affairs, and therefore opt out of giving even lip service. Some may not want to have to follow the stricture and dogma of any given faith, preferring instead a life of secular hedonism. Some people are just too damn proud. Some people feel betrayed by the gods, if something horrible happens in their lives, and there is no sense of justice or retribution that comes.

The Faithless in Faerun can become faithless for the same reasons people in the real world lose their faith. Only the people of Faerun have it a bit easier, as the gods truly do exist and may instill awe and inspiration into a Faithless to make him or her a believer.

My own main PC was a Faithless (and may still be, all things considered, in spite of his choices) because of something that happened a long time ago that gave him the impression that the gods had rejected him. He lived in a world where they did wonderful things for other people, but he was responsible for his own life, never hearing the voice of any god, the music of any god, the calling, constantly judging them as though they were archetypes paraded on a stage and picking out the minute flaws and shortcomings of their personalities (as exemplified by history) and their church heirarchies (as exemplified through the actions of their clergy and the faith's dogma), and therefore always finding a reason why a given deity does not fit, has some flaw, is not perfect.

This is, in my mind, one of the downsides to having +127 Lore, a natural 18 Int, combined with an occult-like need to live in a harmony of perfection.

I defend a person playing a Faithless, but a player has to be very smart about it for me to buy it. It really should be treated for the tragic thing it is.

Bah. I am going to have to disagree with most of the people here. To my character, Drakos, being faithless seems like a perfectly fine idea. He used to follow a deity but has since dumped the idea completly. Following under a god, shows that you are subserveant to another power. Being slightly power-hungry and too damn arrogant tells him that this is just not on.

Furthermore, if you are like Drakos, and probably won't be accepted by any of the nicer gods, what real point is there to following an evil god? After your dead, you are simply another pawn, not to mention for the rest of your afterlife you will be spending all your time socialising with the boring, depressing, masochist sods that you were in a cult with. Being faithless seems ALOT more appealing than following an evil dogma.

Futhermore, as someone who is faithless, you can act how you damn well want without too much concern for the concequences. For example, you can search for a way to AVOID the wall without having to worry about breaking and rules.

((EDIT: Forgive any errors or rambling. I just noticed it was 3 AM and my typing skills have gone down the drain))

Yossarin wrote:

Some people are just too damn proud.

You are agreeing with me, Drakos. :wink:

Yossarin wrote:

Some people are just too damn proud.

You are agreeing with me, Drakos. :wink:

You posted the same time I posted, so I did not see that >_>. Yeah, I agree with Yoss on most points, if not all. And for the record, I am against any gameplay penalties being thrown onto faithless.

Drakos_Vek wrote:

Bah. I am going to have to disagree with most of the people here. To my character, Drakos, being faithless seems like a perfectly fine idea. He used to follow a deity but has since dumped the idea completly. Following under a god, shows that you are subserveant to another power. Being slightly power-hungry and too damn arrogant tells him that this is just not on.

Furthermore, if you are like Drakos, and probably won't be accepted by any of the nicer gods, what real point is there to following an evil god? After your dead, you are simply another pawn, not to mention for the rest of your afterlife you will be spending all your time socialising with the boring, depressing, masochist sods that you were in a cult with. Being faithless seems ALOT more appealing than following an evil dogma.

Futhermore, as someone who is faithless, you can act how you damn well want without too much concern for the concequences. For example, you can search for a way to AVOID the wall without having to worry about breaking and rules.

((EDIT: Forgive any errors or rambling. I just noticed it was 3 AM and my typing skills have gone down the drain))

there are plenty of neutral gods who allows you to be as cruel as you want..hells you can be a LE tormite..as long as you arnt a cleric

Gravemaskin wrote:

People that choose to remain faithless are completely crazy and to quote House "idiot".

Why is that? Where does it say that faithless are crazy or 'touched to the head'? Where?

Vhostym is faithless, Artemis is faithless. They aren't really clown characters in the FR setting. One does not have to negate the existence of the Gods to be faithless. Vhostym, for example, doesn't doubt that Cyric, Bane, Torm... exist, but he doesn't believe them to be divine beings.

Now you can say that those are characters from novels and that they don't really follow the rules of the setting but hey, guess what. Those novels get published by the people who own the setting. So they are the ones that say what goes and what doesn't. I keep discovering that the setting is not at all how I imagined it to be the whole time but I don't go and make assumptions which I pass on as cannon lore.

Furthermore, Amia is a place that accepts all walks of life. You have kobolds, goblins, half dragons... walking around Cordor. No one calls the citizens of Cordor "idiot" for allowing everyone in. You have good drow around every corner so why would a faithless person be regarded as a loony?

You just can't make stuff up because it seems logical to you. It may be completely illogical to someone else. Not to mention that you can't possibly know every reason there is why someone chooses to remain faithless.

Polris wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

People that choose to remain faithless are completely crazy and to quote House "idiot".

Why is that? Where does it say that faithless are crazy or 'touched to the head'? Where?

Vhostym is faithless, Artemis is faithless. They aren't really clown characters in the FR setting. One does not have to negate the existence of the Gods to be faithless. Vhostym, for example, doesn't doubt that Cyric, Bane, Torm... exist, but he doesn't believe them to be divine beings.

Now you can say that those are characters from novels and that they don't really follow the rules of the setting but hey, guess what. Those novels get published by the people who own the setting. So they are the ones that say what goes and what doesn't. I keep discovering that the setting is not at all how I imagined it to be the whole time but I don't go and make assumptions which I pass on as cannon lore.

Furthermore, Amia is a place that accepts all walks of life. You have kobolds, goblins, half dragons... walking around Cordor. No one calls the citizens of Cordor "idiot" for allowing everyone in. You have good drow around every corner so why would a faithless person be regarded as a loony?

You just can't make stuff up because it seems logical to you. It may be completely illogical to someone else. Not to mention that you can't possibly know every reason there is why someone chooses to remain faithless.

all that dosnt change the fact that we are well within reason to think of the faithless as idiots (icly speaking).
(edited)
and as for the citisens of cordor, well the few times ive seen them respond to post about throwing dragons out and kobolds and goblins too..they have been in favor of this...so i dont see a reason why they should be called idiots...unlike the faithless who willingly doom themselves to eternal torment...yea that sounds bright to me...and artimis is a idiot for being faithless

No, you are not well within reason to think those people are idiots because you don't know why someone chose to forsake the Gods. I know there's some dark and elaborate story about Artemis' childhood which has a lot to do with him being faithless. Can't remember what it was currently and I won't even bother to look cause I'm sure there's people here who know and can post it if they choose so.

You say that the faithless are idiots cause they willingly doom themselves to eternal torment. How is that different from the atheists in RL who willingly take a risk to burn in Hell for eternity? Are they idiots too? I know several atheists and they are all very intelligent people.

You're making assumptions without any facts and without even bothering to hear the story behind why someone chose to be faithless. Someone can come up with the best fucking story you ever heard and you wouldn't even know because you labeled them as idiots.

Spending eternity in the afterlife serving as a slave to a god isn't a better fate, depending on how you look at it.

Yossarin wrote:

Some people may think the gods meddle in human affairs, and therefore opt out of giving even lip service.

I may be mixing up terms here, but aren't those the False, not the Faithless?

Polris wrote:

Gravemaskin wrote:

People that choose to remain faithless are completely crazy and to quote House "idiot".

Why is that? Where does it say that faithless are crazy or 'touched to the head'? Where?

It's deduced. You have active proof of the existence of gods. It would be like refusing to admit gravity is real.

Polris wrote:

You say that the faithless are idiots cause they willingly doom themselves to eternal torment. How is that different from the atheists in RL who willingly take a risk to burn in Hell for eternity? Are they idiots too? I know several atheists and they are all very intelligent people.

The difference is in FR not only are the gods real (there may be a god / gods IRL but I make no judgement about that in this topic), but they actively affect the world. The gods walked the earth in the recent Godswar in the Time of Troubles. Everywhere you go you can see divine magic.

It's one thing to say that light without flame is impossible, it's another to stand by that when you've been shown a thousand lightbulbs.

Polris wrote:

You say that the faithless are idiots cause they willingly doom themselves to eternal torment. How is that different from the atheists in RL who willingly take a risk to burn in Hell for eternity? Are they idiots too? I know several atheists and they are all very intelligent people.

You can turn it around to; And claim that the Believers are idiots, who willingly put so much time into Worship, when there's so much proof that there isn't any god.

Hey, it's all relevant. But one thing is not. Faerun.

And as Yurell said, the gods "WALKED" The earth... That's something, allright

Faithless

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