AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I was thinking about this for a long while. It happened with the Sharrans, it happened with the Zhents recently. I generally feel its bad form to OUT a secretive group, even if its IC. One of my characters, knows more about most groups than anyone would ever dream possible, yet, she's never come out and spoken about them in public and its extremely rare she speaks about them in private. In short, she keeps it to herself.

Why? Because, even though your character knows all this IC, there is little to no risk of permadeath. To me, if someone OUTs a secretive group publicly, they should be willing to permadeath their character first. Reprisals that are permanent, should flow from it.

I feel unless you're willing to risk your character in this fashion, then its extremely bad form to OUT that secretive group to the world. Its akin to metagaming your ability to stay alive after the fact.

Discuss.

I would figure any player actually able to get into a secret such group would first have proved themselves to be a remarkable RP'er; as the group to be secrative in the first place means each individual involved is working cooperatively to help maintain that the group is not highly known of- if at all.

So I would suspect in favor of the odds that a player who goes to OUT a group is also a reasonable RPer willing to take consiquence already as it is. For they had to be willing to take consiquence to even make it into the secret group.

In before the blatant elitism, arguing, and flaming that will follow shortly.

For the record, there was so much work going into the Sharrans being exposed that you have absolutely no clue of. Work that spanned months f time, doing very very very boring things in preparation for the big payoff. To talk about it in the way you insinuate is a genuine disservice to the players who did the work.

I don't think it's bad form at all. If it was bad form it wouldn't be allowed ICly.

Pretty much what Tormak said before he Ninja'd me.

Torzeng wrote:

I would figure any player actually able to get into a secret such group would first have proved themselves to be a remarkable RP'er; as the group to be secrative in the first place means each individual involved is working cooperatively to help maintain that the group is not highly known of- if at all.

So I would suspect in favor of the odds that a player who goes to OUT a group is also a reasonable RPer willing to take consiquence already as it is. For they had to be willing to take consiquence to even make it into the secret group.

Maybe, but that's just re-confirming my point is it not? That publicly outing known members of X secret group is akin to saying, "I'm willing to face the consequences".

For instance, Journalists in Mexico, out drug gang members to the world. A few days later, they end up permanently dead. The same system would apply in Faerun.

Except Faerun is magical. It being a game or no, there are people that would raise said investigators simply /because/ of what they know.

And I will second Tormak's post, I don't know everything that happened, but I recall reports to me from months ago on it, so I know it's been...forever. Lots of stuff. The people who did the investigating are /way/ more dedicated than i think I could be to the RP they were doing, and they have incredible respect from me.

Maybe the Sharrans case is a bad example (because of the in-depth rp), but go back to the principle of outing groups = IC consequences = permadeath/disappearing...etc.?

I think a lot of people do it with the idea of "Sure, /if/ you can catch me and /if/ you can kill me (and my friends, and my allies, and....)"

Political ties play a lot into what people are willing to do, even here.

Does it depend on the group in question? If I remember correctly(often i don't) that 'expose the Shrran hunt' was starting way back before I took a long long break(never coming back number 2). That's alot of RP, if you can keep the spy game up for that long then you deserve a chance to drop them in it.

On the other hand, running around blabbing out a plan that has taken ages and ages to prepare just for the hell of it is really unfair. More so if you only aquired the knowledge using Hide and not real intrigue RP. Beter off taking the plan to the groups enemies and then tweaking the details... encourage their interfaction RP to jump around with a few "Ah HA! You thought you knew my grand scheme"s and "Curses! Foiled again". Much better then these people*list of names* are going to do this *list of 'things'*.

Quote:

On the other hand, running around blabbing out a plan that has taken ages and ages to prepare just for the hell of it is really unfair.

No plan survives contact with the enemy. "Contact" includes spies.

The Incognitos wrote:

Much better then these people*list of names* are going to do this *list of 'things'*.

Aaaah, the irony. *Snicker* <3 you, Incog.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

On the other hand, running around blabbing out a plan that has taken ages and ages to prepare just for the hell of it is really unfair.

No plan survives contact with the enemy. "Contact" includes spies.

Yes true. I was thinking from the perspective of a former 'professional busy body'. That said they could still pull an action movie on it and foil the plan just as it comes to fruition... more panache then telling the mass of good/ bad guys to go to their hideout and beat them up.

Not all spies survive contact with the Enemy either *but that's just usually either a bad call on the spy's part or the like*

TormakSaber wrote:

In before the blatant elitism, arguing, and flaming that will follow shortly.

For the record, there was so much work going into the Sharrans being exposed that you have absolutely no clue of. Work that spanned months f time, doing very very very boring things in preparation for the big payoff. To talk about it in the way you insinuate is a genuine disservice to the players who did the work.

Two and a half years, actually. Eary's been doing his investigations into the Sharrans and various other parties since he fell from Druidic grace. I actually find this thread to be outright insulting for the damn looong amount of spying, prep, leadfollowing, and massive amounts of log-keeping that it took to get to the position wherein Eary finally had all the intel. Some of it meant taking significant losses to get close to certain people, some of it meant becoming the most hated elf on Amia, some of it meant dealing with the constant drama of those around me.

So before you mention 'bad form'; let's comment on the bad form of chastizing people for what occurs In Character on an RP Server.

I think I'm quite fine to say in this instance 'Screw You; Stay IC'.

IC is IC, gotta keep it IC, always. If you don't want to be ousted - don't get found out and hide it really well. If you get revealed and your plan is foiled? Get back up, find a way to roll with it, and don't freak out OOC. Consider what you've done so far, how well you kept this under wraps for so long, and all the rest.

If you're so strung up on success, instead of staying IC and Rolling with the Punches, you seriously need to step back from the game.

Infiltrating a Group, Observing a Group, or simply Being Intelligent and using these to reveal badguy plans and the rest is all simply a part of the IC 'Spy Game' as I call it. Some people are much better at it than others, hence if you wish to play the game - you've gotta be certain of how you're doing it, and more importantly, who you let into the game.

I think you're all focussing on the word "Sharran" and missing the actual discussion thread altogether. Lets leave the Sharran case out of this and get back to the more generalised question/discussion please? Think of it more in an abstract way, that's why its in General Discussion and not Specific Incident discussion.

Cheers!

soundofastream wrote:

I think you're all focussing on the word "Sharran" and missing the actual discussion thread altogether. Lets leave the Sharran case out of this and get back to the more generalised question/discussion please? Think of it more in an abstract way, that's why its in General Discussion and not Specific Incident discussion.

Cheers!

Quote:

So before you mention 'bad form'; let's comment on the bad form of chastizing people for what occurs In Character on an RP Server.

I think I'm quite fine to say in this instance 'Screw You; Stay IC'.

IC is IC, gotta keep it IC, always. If you don't want to be ousted - don't get found out and hide it really well. If you get revealed and your plan is foiled? Get back up, find a way to roll with it, and don't freak out OOC. Consider what you've done so far, how well you kept this under wraps for so long, and all the rest.

If you're so strung up on success, instead of staying IC and Rolling with the Punches, you seriously need to step back from the game.

Infiltrating a Group, Observing a Group, or simply Being Intelligent and using these to reveal badguy plans and the rest is all simply a part of the IC 'Spy Game' as I call it. Some people are much better at it than others, hence if you wish to play the game - you've gotta be certain of how you're doing it, and more importantly, who you let into the game.

I could reveal the Zhentarhim, the Nightmasks too, IC, but only due to raw IC has Eary chosen not to do so. SO it is a pretty general point. Not out of OOC Good Graces. There's also a few other Not Publically Known stealth factions I could mention.

You're the one who brought up the Sharrans specifically, however.

I see 100% nothing wrong with outing a secret organization. For that matter, I see nothing wrong with spying and telling any secrets. What's IC is IC. You put in a lot of work into something and it got outed? Oh well, that's how things go sometimes. Don't take it personally. Now you know to do a better job about being hush hush about it.

As someone who recently outed a couple groups, I can safely say that I am fully aware of the consequences.

There are some things that ARE worse than death and torture is one of them. Torture RP could last up to hours, mainly with the victim only emoting as best they can to keep themselves from simply leaving the comp for a good hour as they are tortured.

Another thing you forget is that some people enter factions with not a single intention of actually helping the group much, as most spies do.

Another point is that players should not judge what is outed/posted as if it is the first time the poster said anything.

I have a few players who can attest that I was already telling the Banites business long before I posted.

Being a spy is not as simple as you think. And in most cases the best laid plans involve(or at least should involve) a modicum of trust. If you plan on publicly speaking about your plans, whether you think you're safe or not, chances are, what you said will reach ears.

Another VERY LARGE factor...the most important factor of all...

Random incidents occur, and that means:

NEVER EXPECT PLANS TO GO THE WAY YOU PLAN. AND NEVER EXPECT SECRETS TO REMAIN SECRETS THE MOMENT YOU SPEAK IT ALOUD.

I never do. I roll with the waves and make the best of the situation.

Revealing information ICly is an IC action, and thus should be dealt with ICly.

Plain and simple.

Honestly, the espionage type RP isn't for everyone. I tried it before, I'll try it again mayhap and we'll see what happens from there.

If you got discovered, then do what you have to do ICly. Plain and simple.

I consider OOC whining (because that is what this is) about IC consequences of IC actions as a result of legitimate IC actions bad form.

To think that someone wouldn't shed the light of day on clandestine, nefarious factions working to cause trouble out of OOC 'courtesy' is a little thing called 'metagaming'.

You are a member of the group ICly, you trusted them ICly, they breached that trust ICly, you deal with them ICly.

Dwagin wrote:

I consider OOC whining (because that is what this is) about IC consequences of IC actions as a result of legitimate IC actions bad form.

To think that someone wouldn't shed the light of day on clandestine, nefarious factions working to cause trouble out of OOC 'courtesy' is a little thing called 'metagaming'.

On the second part of this, it depends on the individual.

Think Churchill back to the Coventry decision he had to make.. he didn't do anything about a nefarious happening and while a lot of people paid the price, the information gained through it may well have saved a lot more lives after.

I'm with Yurell. And Dwagin. And Ron. And Tormak. And Lally.

That's about it, really.

Grymia wrote:

Revealing information ICly is an IC action, and thus should be dealt with ICly.

Plain and simple.

Honestly, the espionage type RP isn't for everyone. I tried it before, I'll try it again mayhap and we'll see what happens from there.

If you got discovered, then do what you have to do ICly. Plain and simple.

I love spy RP.

Although I guess I have a thing or two to learn from Ron about getting real deep in the poop of the real nasty people. ^.^

I've only turned up a few minor things and very few major things. It's a ton of fun though. To me anyway.

Grymia wrote:

On the second part of this, it depends on the individual.

While one could mince hairs about the situation ICly as it would depend entirely -on- the situation and person, but thats quibbling.

Expecting an OOC courteousy about any action in that manner is metagaming.

Its not like this is a for the betterment of the community fudge, such as the PvP rules, which I understand the reasoning for.

Dwagin wrote:

Grymia wrote:

On the second part of this, it depends on the individual.

While one could mince hairs about the situation ICly as it would depend entirely -on- the situation and person, but thats quibbling.

Expecting an OOC courteousy about any action in that manner is metagaming.

Its not like this is a for the betterment of the community fudge, such as the PvP rules, which I understand the reasoning for.

True enough.. there's a difference between that kind of OOC courtesy and a person who ICly has a greater good to serve by keeping quiet.

Just a quick question - what do the PvP rules do about someone who rats out a secret organisation like that? Is that enough RP to kill them? How many times is it acceptable to hunt them down? I know ICly if you would be revealed you would ICly keep killing them until there was no way they could ever hope to come back to life.

I know that when someone ratted out the secret location of the Banite temple and assisted in its destruction, we were allowed to PVP them ONE time.

Past that, it was considered griefing.

I'd stick with the same rule.

AxlLeigh wrote:

I know that when someone ratted out the secret location of the Banite temple and assisted in its destruction, we were allowed to PVP them ONE time.

Past that, it was considered griefing.

I'd stick with the same rule.

That's excluding any additional arrangements made with the player involved, mind.

Well, yeah, what WonWon said, but individual exceptions usually go without saying.

I think that sucks, to be honest. While I can understand treating it ICly (which I support), giving them a slap on the wrist for doing that much damage seems pretty pathetic.

Or is the rule 'hunt down and kill' only once, and beyond that any contact 'go away or feed the mushrooms' is aright?

To be fair;

I can't kill the Maskarran Leader 500 Times once discovering him, his evil deeds, his plots and his plans - why should I be killed 500 Times for instead deciding to foil aforementioned deeds, plots, and plans?

After the initial kill for the RP of outing, past that, you have to have supporting RP and etc. just as with any PVP instance. I t doesn't mean you can NEVER kill them again, you just have to have a reason past "Oh, you outed us."

WonWon wrote:

To be fair;

I can't kill the Maskarran Leader 500 Times once discovering him, his evil deeds, his plots and his plans - why should I be killed 500 Times for instead deciding to foil aforementioned deeds, plots, and plans?

A fair enough point, one I hadn't considered to be honest. However, you ca hold is faith against him in subsequent RP to lead to PvP, can the betrayal be used the same way (use it against them in subsequent RP to lead to PvP)?

AxlLeigh wrote:

you just have to have a reason past "Oh, you outed us."

Ahem.

The only gripe I ever have (and it's not a big one) is when spies get found out before they can ever tell the secrets and are summarily taken care of through one of the following means and refuse to roll with the punches themselves:

To refuse such IC counters to espionage -is- bad form imo.

But you can't always get people to agree to your methods and some people RP literally -just- to win and will refuse to lose even if that means looking like a (censored) both ICly and OOCly.

But yes, keep IC and OOC seperate.

So back to the main point. The point is this:

What about Permadeath? Surely, in Faerun, if the Zhentarim caught you outing them, you'd never see the light of day again (including capturing and imprisoning you permanently) if they caught you?

Yet, because of all these rules against forced permadeath, torture, permanent slavery/imprisonment, it lets you off the hook extremely lightly. Therefore, should there not be a corresponding rule to protect these secretive organisations who can't really take any reprisals against the individuals except for a temporary kill lasting all of 5 mins.

soundofastream wrote:

So back to the main point. The point is this:

What about Permadeath? Surely, in Faerun, if the Zhentarim caught you outing them, you'd never see the light of day again (including capturing and imprisoning you permanently) if they caught you?

Yet, because of all these rules against forced permadeath, torture, permanent slavery/imprisonment, it lets you off the hook extremely lightly. Therefore, should there not be a corresponding rule to protect these secretive organisations who can't really take any reprisals against the individuals except for a temporary kill lasting all of 5 mins.

To use Wonwon's example (supposing I understand him correctly) - there's no reason when, upon the discovery that you play say, a Sharran*, that you wouldn't be locked up permanently or permakilled upon discovery - why should it apply one way and not the other?

*I use this as a generic example, not referring to any events upon this server.

I don't beleive in permadeath, personally. There's more creative ways to "punish" a person's character besides permakilling them. But, if someone won't accept *any* IC consequences beyond just being killed and raised 5 minutes later for their character's behavior and actions, well.... those are the sorts of people I avoid RPing with in the first place, if I can.

Last edited by SLS on Tue, Feb 23 2010, 7:42 AM, edited 2 times in total.

Most people I RP with tend to roll with the punches and actually enjoy a bit of imprisonment/disfiguration if the RP leading up to it is good, self included.

Personally I say outing a group/person or destroying them should be done purely through RP and planning rather then just "Oh I overheard him say bla bla bla so he's evil!". It is just one person's word against another and people are not very likely to believe the words of adventurers for no reason. Albeit while some may be more inclined to believe them then others at the end of the day it's not like they'd send the inquisition without any solid evidence.

Last edited by Dwagin on Tue, Feb 23 2010, 7:43 AM, edited 1 time in total.

In the same thought pattern as Gers posted above: There's worse things than death. There's worse things than physical harm.

Dwagin wrote:

There's worse things than death.

I suppose that would depend on how Faithful you were.

Hmm..I think after all this discussion, I have a further idea.

What would be the most fun for all involved? Outing groups are rarely fun for a lot of players, that's why, despite the whole lists of various groups I have, with their ranks, titles and everything else, I would rarely, if ever do it. I suspect, if I did, I'd be the server's worst Public Enemy ever XD.

On the other hand, there might be a few cases, where it further's the plot along in such a way that it adds value to the rp, rather than subtracts it. I see this, however, as the exception to the rule.

What if we all started outing each other on public forums? Would that be detrimental...overall? I think it would personally.

Yurell wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

There's worse things than death.

I suppose that would depend on how Faithful you were.

Think outside the box, Yurell.

I can think of some things.. believe me. *shudders*

Uhm. When exactly were the Zhents outed recently? >.<

No... don't -actually- answer that question. From what I've read recently on the forums, there have been no outings of Zhents what so ever. Apart from the mentioning of such in this thread, that is.

Generally speaking, I've never been much of a fan of "spy" RP. I don't really see it contributing, and it falls into the category of "Potential rewards with no risk".

When you join an enemy faction as a spy, you really don't take any risks in doing so. If you fail, you'll get thrown out and perhaps even killed. But you'll be alive again the next day anyway.

Also... "spy" RP isn't the equivalent of: I rarely, if ever log on with my spy (who often is an alt), and all of my "intel" is copy+pasted from the faction forums.

We've had quite a few of those in the Banite faction. I don't care much about it, but it certainly doesn't make me respect you either.

In general, the spy-game doesn't work on Amia. I know that there's tons of spying back and forth between Amia's opposing parties, but it's not like you're really accomplishing much. It is, generally speaking, a lot of cliques stroking their own e-peens in taking part of exclusive secrets which others don't get to see.

And since everything inevitably gets outed at one point or another (aka: Every time someone leaves the Banite faction, *sigh*), I've changed the way I plot and do things on Amia, so that it would be unaffected by any potential exposure. The Banite faction has adapted that change as well.

Grymia wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Dwagin wrote:

There's worse things than death.

I suppose that would depend on how Faithful you were.

Think outside the box, Yurell.

I can think of some things.. believe me. *shudders*

Immortality is the worst fate I can think of.

Than you, my friend, are not thinking hard enough. I can think of tons of things... >.>

Last edited by Mr Mago on Tue, Feb 23 2010, 8:02 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Dwagin wrote:

In the same thought pattern as Gers posted above: There's worse things than death. There's worse things than physical harm.

Like... killing your loved ones? Who can be raised just as easily.

Or burning down a forest? Which will re-grow.

Or... I'm out of ideas, actually.

The one and only true harm which I can see one character inflicting upon another, would be to have their relationships spoiled. But that can become borderline OOC asshatery, and to some (or even a lot) of players, that would likely ruin their game play experience altogether.

Anyhow. Attempts of damaging IC relations are quite often spoiled by OOC communication.

We're OOC friends. We remain IC friends.

soundofastream wrote:

On the other hand, there might be a few cases, where it further's the plot along in such a way that it adds value to the rp, rather than subtracts it. I see this, however, as the exception to the rule.

Exposing the Sharrans was actually one of those exceptions.

Outing secretive groups

Who is online