AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Invisibility up before PvP begins.. Server rules query

I need clarification on the use of invisibility... Before the PvP begins. I am asking this because the example has happened twice. Once a while ago and once just today before i posted this. Both times i was invisible and had no more invisibles left to recast. And both times the other Character was unable to see me but could see my summons. Both times i have attempted to make my summons speak using the comand in shout or something that it tells you to do in the journal but i believe i am getting it wrong because they dont speak. In both cases the opossing characters were blatantly and obviously the sort that the characters i was playing would try to avoid and stay hidden from. Hence i stay invisible and they IC "demand that i show myself or else". Which is fair enough.

I do not show myself as IC my characters know they only have the one invis' left and need to stay invis and they also know that the person is a hostile type and would not go right up to them so they could be seen and in doing so get in range of their weapon for a blinding first flurry of blows. Whilst invisible i have spoken in talk to them but they do not hear. ( this is an Invisibility bug. You carnt be seen. Doesnt say anything about not being heard) or they had heard and were ignoring what i was saying which in both cases was " No, i prefer to remain hidden as this is how i hunt"

Both times they eventually attack my summons, I use the tool and hostile them and reveal myself and attack back with a spell ( one in each case is all i could get off before they were on me), after they have had a couple of shots on my summons. Both cases the char i had were obviously mage types and to low lvl for the normal PvP spells and way that mages fight. They go straight for me so i run ( giving them ample opertunity to hostile me directly at that point even though they must have hostiled my summons anyway to attack it in the first place)they follow but not fast enough i manage to get a few buffs up and return straight away ( no resting) with my summon, or they are fighting that because they carn't catch me and my summon kills them. Both times they began the aggression because i was silent, which people can be. People ignore each other everyday.

Both times they moaned that i stayed invisible to start with and didn't RP with them ( though i was trying to rp talk they didnt hear or it didnt work and silence is RP isn't it anyway. You stay silent because you dont trust the person before you) if i hadn't stayed invisible they would not have attacked and that i was a bad RP because of it. (According to them it was bad RP to stay invisible and/ or not reveal myself)

My question is. Is this so? Do i have to come out of Invisibility, when another PC demands it IC even though in the situation IC my PC wouldn't? If i do not and they start the pvp but i win is this bad RP and why?

Sorry about the examples but i felt they were needed to clarify the question and i want to observe any rules fully and change if they are right on this so OOC moaning doesn't happen again.

At least you hostiled them before attacking. IMO, you should have used the summons to RP, but failing that you could have used tells to inform the player what the summons was doing.

The chat commands are here.

To make your summons say something, type

/s f_voice s I will chew your face off!

where /s indicates the shout channel, f_voice is for the talk command, and s specifices that it is your summons that is speaking. I'll bet you missed the /s at the beginning and weren't in Shout mode, and because you were invisible they couldnt hear you.

Thankyou for telling me how to make summons etc talk. Hopefully in the future it will stop any PvP misunderstandings that have happened.

Yes. For example, "/s f_voice s Oi, come here and I'll make ya my bitch!" works very well to clear up ambiguous situations. No misunderstanding possible about your intentions, I'd say.

Sooooo....

They attacked your summon, without hostiling you first? And then complained when you fought back?

WTF? Or did I read that wrong?

BoogieBard Jaks wrote:

Do i have to come out of Invisibility, when another PC demands it IC even though in the situation IC my PC wouldn't? If i do not and they start the pvp but i win is this bad RP and why?

If your character would stay under the protection of invisibility and remain silent, then that's what you do. Perhaps a tell to the person informing them that the invisibility bug is keeping you from responding, but you're not ignoring them would work?

Once someone makes a hostile action then you're entitled to respond in kind. They chug a potion you can attack them. They cast a spell, you can attack them. They attack your summons/familiar, you can attack them. If they do something like that, lose and then complain, then they've got a nasty case of Sore Loser Syndrome.

To Gurth.

Basically yes.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... 653#720653

Or check the wiki for the voice commands.

To Ainjyll

Never thought of a Tell. Dont know why its obvious realy though i have since tested the make summon/ familiar talk command and got it working so can have them speak for me.

As for sore loosers thats what it felt like because i wouldn't stand and fight them i would run around to try and get an advantage before i struck back and in the process the summon gets them but wasn't sure on the rules about it

Just a little side question here. Is it possible to make it where the summon can be hostile? If someone cant be seen and you wish to attack the summon for whatever reason you cant hostile it and you may not even know who that summon belongs to to hostile them.

A little confused at what you are asking and i am no master at game mechanics.. In the case in question they did attack my summon first and i saw the summon recieve damage before i hostiled them and then counter attacked.

Godo wrote:

Just a little side question here. Is it possible to make it where the summon can be hostile? If someone cant be seen and you wish to attack the summon for whatever reason you cant hostile it and you may not even know who that summon belongs to to hostile them.

Not as far as I know, no. Your summon/familiar/companion/etcetera's hostility status is tied to your own.

As such it would probably be polite to inform the person hassling your summons of who you are in a tell so that they can hostile your summons (by doing it to you) if they so wish. Problem is that summons attack as soon as you set hostile, right?

Xaviera wrote:

Problem is that summons attack as soon as you set hostile, right?

Can always just command them to stand their ground.

If they're attacking at all without being hostile, it's their issue entirely, regardless of the circumstances. Defending yourself is entirely in your purview, as is remaining invisible.

It is also possible that they were metagaming. They saw summoned creature, and immediatly metagamed their characters to know that there is a master somewhere. Have I said how much I hate metagamers?...
anyway, to the main topic. I think you had every right to stay invisible, even if they were demanding you to reveal yourself...
You should never obey anyone's IC commands, if you ever again have that same kind of situation. Everyone has right to do as they please with their characters, as long as it doesn't interfere with server rules.

hahahaha im glad you killed them. anyone who is so set on pvp should be equally ready to die. did you do anything wrong? absolutely not. being invisible is IC enough, and there was rp to warrant pvp i guess. people who jump straight to pvp deserve to die for it for the obvious reasons, its risky, and the initiator often has a disadvantage. theres other ways to handle hostile situations than just swinging a sword.

Sylfwe wrote:

Xaviera wrote:

Problem is that summons attack as soon as you set hostile, right?

Can always just command them to stand their ground.

I've never found that summons obey those commands consistently. All of a sudden they'll just run off and start attacking.

Its just a question of spaming them really, or at least that is what I have found to work.

Maias227 wrote:

Its just a question of spaming them really, or at least that is what I have found to work.

Yes, but if I am not mistaken, using the voice commands are more effective than using the radial menu.

If they attack you, and they've not set you to hostile, kill them.

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... &start=100

In fact, anything that could be taken as a hostile act (buffing, chugging etc.) is grounds to attack them if they do it in hostile RP.

It's a simple deal here: them attacking your summon is grounds for you attacking them. If they didn't set hostile before attacking your summon, it's not your responsibility to set -them- to hostile anymore. At that point, you just attack and defend. They broke a PvP rule, not you.

In this instance however it would not be possible for the person to set the invisable guy hostile, as they have no idea who it is. Since the invisable person isn't saying anything or letting them know some how.

It's pretty easy to just go out and ask on an OOC level so that no rules are broken. It's still the other persons fault.

I wouldn't say that there were any rules broken, pvp-wise, that is. Metagaming, now there's an interesting line of thought to go down. "I see a bird. Must be a mage around." Hmmmm.......

Attacking the summon without RP beforehand and without hostiling its owner. That's two rules broken.

Read the OP closely. They did RP, telling the mage to show himself or else. They meta-gamed whatever the fact that the familiar/summon/whatever was attached to a mage and not just a whatever it was. You also can't hostile someone if you don't know who that someone is because they're in invis.

Some metagaming with some sore losing tossed in at the end is all. At least, when I read the PvP rules, this is what I can draw as a conclusion.

In all fairness, walking around with a PvP Chip on your shoulder is a bad idea to start with and usually leads to hurt pride and sore feelings.

In my short time that I've been on Amia, I've noticed a -lot- of the more "good" paladin-types walking around with extremely sensitive PvP egos and most will jump at the chance to PvP an "evil-doer" even if it's as simple as a mage summoning a dire rat instead of some sort of celestial pigeon.

It leads those "good" guys into a vast number of PvP confrontation and more oft than not (in my experiences) they wind up complaining about it and taking it to an OOC level. Not saying I'm not guilty of this myself, but it's become a huge trend from what I've seen in the "I'm a paladin, you're evil. SMITE SMITE SMITE" spectrum.

Then again, I could be and probably am biased.

As far as the OP is concerned, they were metagaming the fact that there was an invisible mage around unless they had see invisibility up or unless their -character- knew that that sort of creature couldn't exist in this realm without some sort of mage commanding it. As far as resolving OOC PvP mix-ups, you win some you lose some and you can't help that people are always gonna have the "I WANNA WIN!" attitude.

Heeeeere we go again....

TormakSaber wrote:

Heeeeere we go again....

I'll shush.

Isn't this entire thread based off a post which should have been locked due to no 'specific incidents'?

Typically these types of things should be handled with a DM via PM, in my opinion.

ainjyll wrote:

Read the OP closely. They did RP, telling the mage to show himself or else. They meta-gamed whatever the fact that the familiar/summon/whatever was attached to a mage and not just a whatever it was. You also can't hostile someone if you don't know who that someone is because they're in invis.

Some metagaming with some sore losing tossed in at the end is all. At least, when I read the PvP rules, this is what I can draw as a conclusion.

I disagree, BreeBree. If the OP chooses to ICly ignore them, how can there be any conflict RP? If she was invading their faction area or passing them in a hunting zone it would be one thing, but I didn't get any of that from the OP.

I can see the point about invis and not being able to hostile, but rules were still ignored. An OOC warning should have been given at the very least asking for a tell so they could hostile. Furthermore there was no IC provocation given by the OP, and no out given by the attacker. At least from what I read above.

Wasn't aware an OOC tell was required for pvp.

Hostiling is required. That is clear from the rules.

It's not that you're asking permission to PvP OOCly, you're asking who the player is so that you hostile them to kill their summon. That way, if they take issue ICly with it, the two PCs are hostiled and ready to throw down.

ainjyll wrote:

I wouldn't say that there were any rules broken, pvp-wise, that is. Metagaming, now there's an interesting line of thought to go down. "I see a bird. Must be a mage around." Hmmmm.......

"I see a bird that hovers in one spot, never landing. It's big for a bird, too ... could be a mage's familiar. I'd best make assurances double sure - if I cry out, and it doesn't flee, it's obviously not a wild one, and I don't see much reason for a messenger bird to just hover there."

Remember - one can make one's summons emote too. So if it was acting like a normal bird *Acts like a normal bird* may be a good idea.

Yurell wrote:

ainjyll wrote:

I wouldn't say that there were any rules broken, pvp-wise, that is. Metagaming, now there's an interesting line of thought to go down. "I see a bird. Must be a mage around." Hmmmm.......

"I see a bird that hovers in one spot, never landing. It's big for a bird, too ... could be a mage's familiar. I'd best make assurances double sure - if I cry out, and it doesn't flee, it's obviously not a wild one, and I don't see much reason for a messenger bird to just hover there."

Remember - one can make one's summons emote too. So if it was acting like a normal bird *Acts like a normal bird* may be a good idea.

There's no "It's big for a bird", Yurrel. No where does it say(that I can recall at least), that mages' familiars change in appearance at all. They are regular creatures who gain magical powers. And when they're dismissed as familiars, they apparently look just the same enough to get accepted back into their natural habitats by their kin. Unless the PC who has the familiar emotes or has a description of them being anything other than what they defaultly appear as in game, it's metagaming.

I cry every time someone says "Oh, a mages familiar" when a raven or bat shows up. I mean, if the person has decent lore, then yeah, I can see someone going "Hey, a fire mephit/pixies/hellhound/Imp.... well those things are usually native to these parts.. Hmm.. might want to keep an eye on that..". But for the "regular" animals. No. It's just plain stupid to automatically recognize it as a familiar and it ruins RP and the perks that are supposed to come with choosing a "natural" familiar, like a bat and raven. They're unassuming, they blend in, and they're great for eavesdropping.

Dark Immolation wrote:

There's no "It's big for a bird", Yurrel. No where does it say(that I can recall at least), that mages' familiars change in appearance at all. They are regular creatures who gain magical powers. And when they're dismissed as familiars, they apparently look just the same enough to get accepted back into their natural habitats by their kin. Unless the PC who has the familiar emotes or has a description of them being anything other than what they defaultly appear as in game, it's metagaming.

I'm referring to the physical effects of domestication - a well-fed, domesticated animal will look more well fed than an equivalent in the wild. It's not necessary, though - it is acting unnaturally for an animal. Feel free to disregard the whole 'large' aspect.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I cry every time someone says "Oh, a mages familiar" when a raven or bat shows up.

Can you name some other time that a bat would show up in broad daylight?

Dark Immolation wrote:

I mean, if the person has decent lore, then yeah, I can see someone going "Hey, a fire mephit/pixies/hellhound/Imp.... well those things are usually native to these parts.. Hmm.. might want to keep an eye on that..". But for the "regular" animals. No. It's just plain stupid to automatically recognize it as a familiar and it ruins RP and the perks that are supposed to come with choosing a "regular" familiar, like a bat and raven. They're unassuming, they blend in, and they're great for eavesdropping.

A bat hovering around people in broad daylight is unassuming? A bird hovering in one spot, neither landing nor flying away is unassuming? I've never seen either animal exhibiting that behaviour.

Yurell wrote:

I'm referring to the physical effects of domestication - a well-fed, domesticated animal will look more well fed than an equivalent in the wild. It's not necessary, though - it is acting unnaturally for an animal. Feel free to disregard the whole 'large' aspect.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Unless the PC who has the familiar emotes or has a description of them being anything other than what they defaultly appear as in game, it's metagaming.

You're assuming that the animal looks a certain way other than what the model shows and what the PC emotes. You should not do this.

Yurrel wrote:

Can you name some other time that a bat would show up in broad daylight?

I did not mention a time. You merely mention daylight because it would seem weird in that situation. A bat at night, however, would not.

Yurrel wrote:

A bat hovering around people in broad daylight is unassuming? A bird hovering in one spot, neither landing nor flying away is unassuming? I've never seen either animal exhibiting that behaviour.

Again, you're assuming something which I never specified to make my point seem less valid. Of course a bat in daylight would look weird. Of course a bird hovering forever in one place would look weird. But a PC could emote how a "normal" creature would act, as you even said yourself, as in having the bat out at night, or as in having the bird land and peck around. However, the sad fact is, even when I've seen some people do this, often they are still metagamed, because OoC, you know there are no animals in the module that move around like that except for spawns and familiars(that you see at least). Using that OoC knowledege is of course, metagaming.

The point isn't that hard to get.

And indeed, that was my suggestion - to emote the familiar's activity as unsuspicious. If you do not emote that they are behaving like normal animals, why should one not assume they are doing what it is they are doing on screen? But if you emote it the no one has any excuse to treat it differently to any other animal.

Yurell wrote:

And indeed, that was my suggestion - to emote the familiar's activity as unsuspicious. If you do not emote that they are behaving like normal animals, why should one not assume they are doing what it is they are doing on screen? But if you emote it the no one has any excuse to treat it differently to any other animal.

I'd really say no one has a real excuse to treat them differently even if the familiar isn't emoted(although I'd reccommend it).

Take for instance the animals in the Grove. They are animal NPC's. There are falcons there, IIRC. They hover in one spot all the time, as per the falcon model. If you had a falcon familiar and put it next to it, they would look exactly the same. And ICly, one would most likely assume them to be moving around, or doing whatever it would naturally, the model is just a limitation. You should have no more reason to suspect that either one is a familiar sheerly off the fact that they are both continuing to hover in one place. Again, it is a limitation of the model.

Whether the person possessing the familiar takes the initiative to RP or not, if someone automatically jumps to the conclusion that every moving animal in the game that does not attack them is a familiar without some IC reasoning, they are metagaming. A Raven looks like a Raven Familiar looks like a Raven until emoted/proven ICly to be otherwise. And in all truth, sometimes you may even be better off not emoting the familiar. Since there are so many people that metagame familiars for the sheer reason they're not moving like spawns or NPC's, maybe they won't notice if you remain "quiet". I say this not to discourage RP, but to discourage metagaming.

I'd just like to point out that even if there is an animal around, and even if it is acting unnaturally, doesn't necessarily mean that there is a mage nearby. One of my favorite things to do IC is to sit Garnith down in the old Mystra tower ruins, summon Ethra (a panther), possess her, and run off to RP as her. I generally end up travelling as far as the Skull Crags before finding someone she can gnaw on the cloak and mooch food off.

But back to the original point of this topic, the invisibility/talking issue can be solved simply by standing close to whoever you wish to speak to. This lets them see you, and hear you too. Should they attempt to attack you, merely running a few steps will render you invisible to them again.

Doesn't simply setting the PC to dislike on the player list make him hostile? At least on your side, dunno if that changes in any way for the one that is being disliked, apart from the message "X now dislikes you!".

I use that method if a PC attacks me and I can't cast certain spells due to him being non-hostile. Since activating the widget costs a round.

The point is that the person is unseen and unknown who it is so you do not know who to hostile.

I can’t seem to find anywhere where it is a rule to hostile someone to attack their familiar/summon. Attacking a panther is attacking the panther itself, doesn’t mean that the owner of that panther is going to be attacked as well. If someone has a summoned undead around, for example, and a paladin attacks and kills it doesn’t mean the owner of it even has to acknowledge that it was theirs. Only IC way to know is if it was seen being summoned or if the player there admits to it, try not to use OOC assumptions on such acts.

You hjostile them before attacking them or their summons. Period.

TormakSaber wrote:

You hjostile them before attacking them or their summons. Period.

And if there is no way to tell to whom the summon belongs?

As in, they're not answering to you OOCly either? I say kick it's ass or tell a DM.

TormakSaber wrote:

You hjostile them before attacking them or their summons. Period.

Where is this rule on the summons? Or is it some shadow rule?

Sometimes you can not tell whose summon it is especially if its a possessed mages familiar roaming the lands, or if there are many players around the summon. To start sending tells to people asking if a summon is theirs is totally immersion breaking and totally OOC.

Godo wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

You hjostile them before attacking them or their summons. Period.

Where is this rule on the summons? Or is it some shadow rule?

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... 755#347755

Particularly Rule 6:

Quote:

6. You must set all members of the opposing party to Hostile before performing hostile actions. You can do this with the tool in your inventory or through the player list.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

As in, they're not answering to you OOCly either? I say kick it's ass or tell a DM.

I say you assume afk and treat it like an afk player.

You're not allowed to PvP a non-responsive/afk player unless they're breaking some sort of city law. And if you do something like that, you better be ready to defend yourself with very good reasons and screenshot(s).

Invisibility up before PvP begins.. Server rules query

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