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Scimiter wrote:

Remove the concept of Blink from the coming arguments and try and tell me this is not how you picture what fighting a SD would look like. Swirls of shadows and a person you are never quite able to see as you try and land a hit on them. The way that HiPs is used by us that play Dancers is /exactly/ how someone with such an ability would fight. Striking and then grabbing an opponents shadow to distract, blind and confuse their eyes as we shift to the side, dip low or swing around them to cause the illusion of "disappearing", as HiPs is not a way to really turn invisible just in case someone thinks of countering that I don't understand how it really works...

Nurf HiPs and you'll see Dancers disappear in general just like they did on Arelith when the ability was removed. Personally, though if this is done I'll see if it's livable first, but I'm writing up Daniel's leaving story already.

People whining that the HiPs are being "misused" or "overpowered" when they could counter it by creating a spotter build is not a good reason to change what is a reasonable use of the skill. All three of these things you are planning on changing /right now/ have a real world feel to their use and also have a way to be defeated.

You realize the biggest flaw of your arguement fo HiPS as an "illusion" of disappearing is that it's not an illusion at all. The NWN engine does not allow a PC to swing at the air like he/she would in reality. Unless you whore spot, the magic bullet that counters it directly, it's as GS on tap. Can't see me, can't hit me (oo, but I can still pop in and hit you every round).

And if the entire bulk of Amia's SD population is holding onto the class for the lone reason of being able to spam HiPS, then I say good riddance. The ability itself is not bad, just like Dev. It's when its overused or implimented in a way it wasn't meant to be that it becomes broken, like anything. If people want to give up all ofthe great great RP that goes with their PC's just because they no longer are able to be completely incorporeal for the duration of any fight, then I am saddend, but I will not loose sleep.

In other news, I'm not sure why we're still bringing up GS as one of the "Big Three". We've already got our deus-ex-machina flavored gatorade(Reality Potion). It made more sense as a scroll, but whatever. Anyway, we've already slayed the beast that is GS for the most part. Caster has to take a full round to cast unless he's hasted, there's actually a thing called Counterspelling, and any class has an auto-counter potion to it that requires no skill, no gear-mythalling, not even a quickslot.

Quote:

Can't we implement Critical Shadow Mass?

I'll spare you the metaquantumphysics details but it basically means you explode when you HiPS too often.

Yes, Disco. Yes.

Dark Immolation wrote:

In other news, I'm not sure why we're still bringing up GS as one of the "Big Three". We've already got our deus-ex-machina flavored gatorade(Reality Potion). It made more sense as a scroll, but whatever. Anyway, we've already slayed the beast that is GS for the most part. Caster has to take a full round to cast unless he's hasted, there's actually a thing called Counterspelling, and anything any class has an auto-counter potion to it.

Because it must DIEEEEEEE!

Dev Disco wrote:

Now I can start working at the pinnacle of my Grands Travaux: the utter destruction of GS.

Kohl is safe then?

Does Light disable the ability to HiPS? If so, then maybe add a temporary light effect when you leave the shadows. That way it wouldn't affect cornersneaks and it would prevent HiPS spam. Of course, if light does nothing then this is useless.

Polris wrote:

Does Light disable the ability to HiPS? If so, then maybe add a temporary light effect when you leave the shadows. That way it wouldn't affect cornersneaks and it would prevent HiPS spam. Of course, if light does nothing then this is useless.

It doesn't, its more of a rule really. No shadows = No HIPsing.

Nothing mechanical.

CatInBox wrote:

As a SD myself i should point out that "HiPS Spamming" apparently only becomes and issue in PvP. Noone seems to care if you do it against the monsters but if your in PvP "oh suddenly its a bad thing"

Seriously, its something that needs to be dealt with IC! Not with a DM fix. If you dont know how to prevent HiPS in the first place then you might as well let the SD kill you. If you DO know how to stop HiPS, then use that knowledge to your advantage.

Stop crying because someone has a skill that they use. It's no different then you dev critters that have 100 heal potions in your inventory and spam those. I hate it, yes, but i deal with it ICly, instead of crying to a DM about how often someone uses a potion.

You're wrong. I wont party with a player that HiPS's during PvM. Ever. Not only do I end up catching all the flak from incoming damage, theres a small percentage chance each time you do it that it will cause an error in NwN and crash the hell out of people. I've once had my entire party crash out because of a HiPS spammer half of us running higher end machines.

So yes you are wrong.

Dev Disco wrote:

One for Dev Crit as well, hehe.

Now I can start working at the pinnacle of my Grands Travaux: the utter destruction of GS.

You can burn GS and dance polka on the ashes for all I care, but dun' touch Dev Crit!

I actually did some research on "popup" crashing, it happens when the client suddenly have to catch data and render a lot of things. High polygon armor models rendering all at once, yeah, add a few VFXes to that and even the SLi/crossfire machines hickups. Its usually fine if you've seen the person once already thus you already have his "appearance" catched in your box.

I had this problem when I made the summon skinchanger. If I changed all appearances at once IE, skin, colors, parts(for pc models), wings and tail none of them showed up and if I did it on a PC object (myself) the game and server crashed. Hance the delay. Its also why people that is skinchanging from a non-pc model to a pc model appears naked unless you've seen that person during your session once already. Which is why the short polymorph is in place, it re-catches appearance data.

Herra Tutteri wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

One for Dev Crit as well, hehe.

Now I can start working at the pinnacle of my Grands Travaux: the utter destruction of GS.

You can burn GS and dance polka on the ashes for all I care, but dun' touch Dev Crit!

It will just be equal for all weapons, sugarcups.

You all seem so eager to go on a nerf spree so allow me to comment: When GS and HiPS and Dev Crit and PM abilities and sneak attacks and raging and epic spells are all nerfed, how many people do you expect to have playing amia? HiPS is pretty much already nerfed, so whilst you guys are figuring out how to make life difficult for people who just want to use SDs to RP and mess around as well as those trying to level, consider looking into the PCs and monsters that have well over 100 spot and listen, too.

Let's try to represent the situation clearly :

HIPS is countered with :
-Pseudo dragon familiars
-Spotter builds
-shifters and druid shapechange, mage shapechange and umber hulk scrolls
-Area of effect attacks and spells

Dev crit is countered with :
-Easily cranking your fortitute. Like stated previously, any one of any class -can do it via gear mythaling

Greater Sanctuary is countered with :
-pseudo dragon familiars
-Potions of reality
-Mord disjunction
-shifters and druid shapechange, mage shapechange and umber hulk scrolls
-Area of effect attacks and spells
-An attack removes it anyway

So, where's the problem?

WonWon wrote:

Unfortunately, Tormak and I as the two SD 'Experts' so to speak both from a DM Perspective and Player Perspective (Tormak played Nathan Ruiyao, the original Grandmaster Shadowdancer - and I played his successor, Earylduil Na'fairel), we know quite a few 'broken' mechanical bits about it that you probably don't.

...And that we aren't likely to divulge into the public channels, either. Shadowdancers are only counterable by Mages, and while that sounds 'right', that is purely because Mages, well, let's actually not go there. A Shadowdancer who knows his way around PvP will school anyone, Expert PvPer or otherwise. It's a matter of understanding the fundamentals of NWN Mechanics.

And yes, this is a Black Box argument (I tell you the Input (Shadowdancer) and the Output (Broken), but not the Process (Details of Why)), but you're sorta gonna have to deal with it. I 'ent sharing the details, and I will happily edit the posts of anyone who does.

Before the "Punish the Exploiters" argument comes in - Not viable. Black Box reasons again.

That said, HiPS may not be fixable at all, but in the case it can be tweaked to what's needed - it will be.

That's great that you have "Special" knowledge of HiPS'ing. But your argument is total BS. I have taken down several experienced SD's with my humble fighter so I know it's not just mages that can pwn SD's.

So, because you personally can exploit the Game's engine, everyone else has to suffer? Because of the changes made to some of the higher level creatures, HiPS is no longer useful for PvM farming as quite a few can spot SD's even at Hide's in the 75+ range. So again, BS.

In PvP, unless the SD in question has a uber AB, which of course means that he will not have the ability for damage output, will be unlikely to take down a fighter. Unless they are AFK, that is. Every time an SD stays to fight, they eventually make a mistake and die for their trouble. So again, total BS, unless you have the uber gear and uber "Black Box" knowledge.

So, why not just remove the class from the server and get it over with? It's already a hassle just playing one. I enjoyed playing one for a time, that is until a number of spot powerbuilds showed up. So, other than being a nuisance and pwn'ing low levels, not many epics are running in fear of SD's around every corner.

I also realize that, given the tone and reaction from past posts on this subject, that it's a done deal. But whers's the evidence, besides a few player's complaints? ...

Oh, right. It's a secret.

Yes, yes, DMs are Evil Badguy Tyrants hiding information, for we believe wholeheartedly in not advertising means in which players can cheat and exploit a system to their own perverse pleasure to the displeasure of others. Yes, we get it, you beat up simpletone SD's.

Now that we're back to the topic at hand, however, and the return alotment of unnecessary snipes are handled...

If your Fighter Build is beating up SDs, you're either A - Glitching, or B - Fighting inexperienced opponents.

Example, there are glitches that allow you to do the following;

Get Full Attacks every round and Re Stealth between them (to cause your opponent to only have 1, and be flatfoot).
Get Attack and Restealth before counter attack in initiative can react (sometimes referred to as Ghosting. No matter your click speed, you cannot initiate an attack)
Spell Slot Wiping via Timed Interruption

And about... Five? Maybe six more things that I'm not listing here. These are the obvious, easy ones that sadly everyone knows.

Now, this isn't a punishment to 'Shadowdancers' because the high end individuals know what they're doing in the mechanics of a very old game. It's a rebalancing factor. It isn't punishing generous RPers by initiating Twinking rules to prevent them from doing something. It's balancing, playing field levelling, and otherwise 'tweaking' matters that have the percieved need by the development, design, or DM crew to be tweaked.

It's server maintenance, really.

That said, HiPS isn't being removed. It isn't classified as that bad due to the various counters. However, given the opportunity to handle the removal of the above mentioned exploits, we'll take it. 'Crutch' players are the only ones who will be affected, really.

cannot we make it so on the intial attack your hide and move silently are nerfed?
seen it done on another server
that way people not doing combat things can jsut poof in and out of sight breifly to start creeping others ICly
put the rp reason to concentraion issues..

Dev Disco wrote:

Now I can start working at the pinnacle of my Grands Travaux: the utter destruction of GS.

Over my dead body.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Sorry Cat. It's been agreed upon and whined about so often that the Big Three are going to be changed no matter what voices argue at this point.

Big Three = Dev Crit, HIPS & GS.

Most whined about abilities in the game.

Most whined about... perhaps.

But the actual big three, in terms of power, are:

Time Stop, Bigby's Forceful, Epic Dodge.

Won-

Yes, I understand all of that. And it being a server with which you are in part responsible for, and therefore can make the changes you see fit. I would like to clairify my point.

It has been my experience, and with the exception of one SD/AA, the vast majority of SD's are just not that dangerous. In terms of being anoying to have to deal with, perhaps, but there are IC ways of dealing with them. I have always and ever been a proponent of handling any and all game issues IC.

Other than the very few and quite vocal minority on the server who wish to live in a uber clean and sterile enviroment. And, have become so bored with RP in general and have nothing better than to find exploits and then lobby to nerf them. It seems to me very far away from the ideal of having a good time in a fantasy RP server.

I am also nonpulsed that you feel the need to treat my post as a personal attack, it is not intended as such. Simply the observation that "The Problem" under discussion is behind the sceens and not even within the ability of most of the players. I'll take my well deserved lumps if need be, however it could also be that the reason that I can "Beat up simpleton SD's" is that the uber ones are few and far between.

So again, my own experience is for naught in the shadow of the vocal minority. And minimized for the sake of winning a discussion. Thanks.

soundofastream wrote:

Can we please not change HIPS until Dev. Crit has had its big nerf?

Reason, one hit from a Dev. Critter and nearly all HIPsters are deadsters (low fort saves).

Admittedly, its not good for cornersneaks now and such a 6 second cool down, will basically mean, few SDs would stay SDs, since you have to give up 6 levels to get HIPS in the first place. If SDs go back to getting HIPS at say 3rd level, it might still be worth taking. But giving up 3d6 x 2 weapons worth of sneaks a round, for a feat that becomes useless in the face of the Dev. Critter from hell, means you might as well just go cornersneak to start with.

Uh... Dev Crit, hardly makes HiPS useless.

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

In fact. With your logic, the one thing you should be complaining about, is AoE death spells.

Scimiter wrote:

People whining that the HiPs are being "misused" or "overpowered" when they could counter it by creating a spotter build is not a good reason to change what is a reasonable use of the skill. All three of these things you are planning on changing /right now/ have a real world feel to their use and also have a way to be defeated.

"Popular", or as I view it anecdotal, evidence against me I say it's not broke. Don't fix it.

HiPS works as a deadly effecient combat ability against all classes. Your investment works against all builds (exceptions: Dragonshapers, Mage familiars).

Spot works against one specific class, with one specific ability: Shadowdancers with HiPS.

But it also comes at a huge cost.

As Tormak already mentioned... the Spot equipment in the module doesn't even compare to the MS/Hide equipment that's available.

Spot is a pain in the ass, and very difficult counter to achieve.

WonWon wrote:

Shadowdancers are only counterable by Mages

That's not true, Ron.

pharax wrote:

Let's try to represent the situation clearly :

HIPS is countered with :
-Pseudo dragon familiars
-Spotter builds
-shifters and druid shapechange, mage shapechange and umber hulk scrolls
-Area of effect attacks and spells
-TS summons

Dev crit is countered with :
-Easily cranking your fortitute. Like stated previously, any one of any class -can do it via gear mythaling
- Crit Immunity (PM)
- High AC

Greater Sanctuary is countered with :
-pseudo dragon familiars
-Potions of reality
-Mord disjunction
-shifters and druid shapechange, mage shapechange and umber hulk scrolls
-Area of effect attacks and spells
-An attack removes it anyway

So, where's the problem?

Fixed.

Mr Mago wrote:

soundofastream wrote:

Can we please not change HIPS until Dev. Crit has had its big nerf?

Reason, one hit from a Dev. Critter and nearly all HIPsters are deadsters (low fort saves).

Admittedly, its not good for cornersneaks now and such a 6 second cool down, will basically mean, few SDs would stay SDs, since you have to give up 6 levels to get HIPS in the first place. If SDs go back to getting HIPS at say 3rd level, it might still be worth taking. But giving up 3d6 x 2 weapons worth of sneaks a round, for a feat that becomes useless in the face of the Dev. Critter from hell, means you might as well just go cornersneak to start with.

Uh... Dev Crit, hardly makes HiPS useless.

I'm sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about.

In fact. With your logic, the one thing you should be complaining about, is AoE death spells.

She does actually. Not all HiPS spammers are taken while in stealth mode. And as such, not even Epic Dodge is going to save them. With just four attacks from a DevCritter the first flurry is two simultanenous attacks, and with a decent crit range, chances are both will be crits. The low Fort of most SD's almost gaurantee's a dead SD. So, the "You don't know what you're talking about" statement doesn't fly.

It just isn't YOUR logic, which of course makes it wrong, like usual. Just because you can't be bothered to refute someone else's point without put-downs and retoric...

No, I can't be arsed to explain the basics of combat, enviromental PvP, Amia's specific additions of spells, buffs, scrolls and their availability. The one thousand combinations of builds I know, and my understanding of how 99% of all features in this game work, and co-relate to each other.

Then add 500+ PvP kills over the course of 4½ years of playing on Amia, on top of that.

"You don't know what you're talking about" still flies.

And I'm still standing by it.

Does HiPS not initially break combat and allow you an instant Sneak Attack even if the opponent has enough Spot? For years, I have been under the impression that HiPS is broken because of its spammability regardless of skill checks. I've never tested it, though.

How did the devcritter see the SD in the first place? Are there so many devcritters who have 100+ spot?

hendrack wrote:

How did the devcritter see the SD in the first place? Are there so many devcritters who have 100+ spot?

GS + haste + umberhulk + IKD hipser + Dev = WIN (against 85% of them anyway)

Hard.. isn't it? :roll:

Gravemaskin wrote:

hendrack wrote:

How did the devcritter see the SD in the first place? Are there so many devcritters who have 100+ spot?

GS + haste + umberhulk + IKD hipser + Dev = WIN (against 85% of them anyway)

Hard.. isn't it? :roll:

It's even easier than that. But I'm not telling how. Got to be some mysteries left in this game.

Oh... and having shitty fortitude doesn't cut it as an excuse.

You don't need 110+ MS/Hide to play an SD, as Ron (or was it Tormak?) has already pointed out.

Fortitude can go up to 39+ on a HiPSter as well. I know... because I just made a build like that recently.

Last edited by IronAngel on Mon, Feb 08 2010, 18:47 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I honestly don't see what Dev. Crit has to do with the discussion at hand.

For those who don't think HiPS spam is broken: in fact, even a newbie SD who resorts to HiPS spam will always beat a non-mage who isn't an experienced PvPer. I'm not saying SDs are unbeatable, but that of two people with low to decent PvP skill and experience, the SD will come out on top. Because it's not very difficult to hide before your opponent gets a chance to hit. You just don't have time to even click the pixel figure to attack, before it's gone. Even if you do get time to hit once, it will roll right off Epic Dodge.

The above procedure highlights my point well. The idea that you'd have to resort to several spells off items to have a chance in ludicrous.

So yes. HiPS as an insta-hide ability is fine. Rolls related to HiPS are mostly fine. But the spammability of HiPS is what isn't fine.

I'd just like to point out Umber Hulk as not truly a counter to HiPS. It's not a great form and seeing as the mage can't cast in the form and it's not great at melee at all, it's kinda like "Ooh! Where'd the SD go?! I uses mah Umber Hulk! *poof* Ah, there he is! ....now what? Oh, nvm, he's already KDspamming me."

My SD already can’t hunt in the higher areas because most of the monsters can see my SD – not to mention players who have ubered their spot. My SD can barely hit anything cause the SD doesn’t get sneaks, my SD has a low AC and now what basically keeps her alive is going on a timer? Help!

First to the gent who is saying they don’t like spending 15 mins to kill an SD. Duh. Like my SD is going to make it easy for you? With her DEX you bet she can hop in and out of shadows that fast. You can always leave; it shouldn’t always be about pwning since they’re coming back anyway and this is an RP server.

Next, I understand that there are exploits that make fighters upset and having been pwnd by an AA/SD on occasion; I just do this thing called Roll with the Punches. Besides if I think it’s dirty rule breaking I have a chat in tells.

And ah, my fighter after getting pwnd by an SD did this thing called learn. Because that sort of fighting was new to her I allowed her to be pwned because /she/ didn’t know how to counter it. I then took her and asked other fighters how they dealt with these “annoying little rogues who used shadows”. My SD after being KD’d and pwnd went and asked other rogues how to have that not happen again. So, is this a case of not wanting to RP?

I have to admit all this nerfing stuff is making my head hurt. I get the feeling that I should be complaining a lot more rather than just going with what happens in game. Can someone please post a detailed listing of what is being nerfed/ changed so I can keep up? Thanks. *goes into the closet and weeps for her soon to be pwnd unendingly SD*

PS. Ah Mr. Mago, replace "You don't know what you're talking about." with "I disagree with that point." Works better, doesn't make you seem as if you're acting like a mean spirited person.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I'd just like to point out Umber Hulk as not truly a counter to HiPS. It's not a great form and seeing as the mage can't cast in the form and it's not great at melee at all, it's kinda like "Ooh! Where'd the SD go?! I uses mah Umber Hulk! *poof* Ah, there he is! ....now what? Oh, nvm, he's already KDspamming me."

Umberhulk works best for meleers against HiPS.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

PS. Ah Mr. Mago, replace "You don't know what you're talking about." with "I disagree with that point." Works better, doesn't make you seem as if you're acting like a mean spirited person.

Mago is evil. Mago is experienced and right about things most of the time. He should just totally play a lot of other classes to widen his insight of things.

Last edited by IronAngel on Mon, Feb 08 2010, 19:06 PM, edited 1 time in total.

SDs have better AC than many classes. I find it unlikely that you can't stay alive for one round while every other class has to live as long as the spawn is cleared. And if you really can't, the problem is certainly not on the game's side.

Besides, you say you're in trouble because people/critters have more Spot than you have Hide. I fail to see what effect the HiPS timer would have on that. Unless what I asked a few posts ago about breaking combat and getting free Sneaks is true, in which case you're exploiting a bug anyhow.

After reading through nearly everything said I could think of myself to say...

I'm going to add that I find it absurd when an SD can RPly still call the shadows when he's tied up hands and feet which, as binds, stops most standard people from being able to do anything short of stillspell on a non-somatic spell so they don't get knocked out before they finish speaking the words. In fact, my last impression was that an SD bound totally and gagged could still HIPS as long as they can wiggle- so much as somebody dropping them counts as enough movement.

So I fully support anything that will bring down the powerhousing of HIPS and Dev Critical, since those will be going hand-in-hand and the proceeding destruction of GS because that one I have used, have seen abused, and fully agree all three can be worked on. Even if I like GS.

HIPS has had so many problems and nearly all that I've delt with is actually the mechanics in RP; exceedingly with bullshit of "omg I use your shadow moron" and me having to go "three colors of light, so you better be under my feet to find a shadow at NOON".

Game mechanics busted? Whoohoo fix it!

RP Mechanics I'll probably just have to forever hold angst with and... before you tell me to go mad-spotter, I've worked hours on my current to-be build and the max investment on a Wis Base to add Spotting to counter HiPS after gear added in means I wouldn't have the spellcasting power I am going to need to remain a mildly viable mix-class cleric. So I had to scrap it.

And the best of my understanding is that monsters that a HiPS beating or DevCrit immune or near immune has to do with a desperate attempt to bring PvM balance (player vs monster) because HiPS and Dev were too dominating in that just as much as it has been in PvP.

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

PS. Ah Mr. Mago, replace "You don't know what you're talking about." with "I disagree with that point." Works better, doesn't make you seem as if you're acting like a mean spirited person.

Mago is evil. Mago is experienced and right about things most of the time. He should just totally play a lot of other classes to widen his insight of things.

I've played Paladins, SDs, Mages, Druids, Barbarians, Blackguards, Rogues (aka, cornersneakers), Dwarven Defenders, Arcane Archers among others.

Most of you guys just don't know about it.

Mr Mago wrote:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

PS. Ah Mr. Mago, replace "You don't know what you're talking about." with "I disagree with that point." Works better, doesn't make you seem as if you're acting like a mean spirited person.

Mago is evil. Mago is experienced and right about things most of the time. He should just totally play a lot of other classes to widen his insight of things.

I've played Paladins, SDs, Mages, Druids, Barbarians, Blackguards, Rogues (aka, cornersneakers), Dwarven Defenders, Arcane Archers among others.

Most of you guys just don't know about it.

Still doesn't change the fact that when you post, there are times when you portray yourself as an arrogant arse. Is that intentional?

You also spend a great deal of time lamenting that you do not receive the respect you feel that's due you. Respect is earned, given freely by those you interact with, not something to be demanded. As a result, I myself, and I'm sure many others view you with but tolerance, not able to see that bluster and one-upsmanship do not equal respect. Nor do belittling comments based on your percieved superiority.

That many of the veteran players and DM staff coddle you and allow your behaivior to go unchecked gives the immpression of a clique. There are numerous players that post here that would seem to have a blank check for squashing and harassing views other than their own.

HIPS - could use a change as I feel very dirty using it and it takes all the fun (and skill) out of hiding/cornersneaking. Might want to improve some of the SD other abilities in lieu of changing it.

Dev crit - needed to be changed.

GS - *shrugs* if this lasted a flat round i'd still use it if only to escape in safety when things turned bad. Could add a save to it as well similar to Sanctuary.

I know that I can come off as an arrogant arse. It's not intended. I'm just coldhearted, short in my remarks and harsh. At least when it comes to this stuff.

I've been looking into, and learning game balance for past 4 years. I know this stuff. And I've seen hundreds of topics like these, were those who usually haven't taken the time to fully learn all the aspects of it, try to proclaim truths that are anything but untrue.

I get fed up with it. And I'm currently deciding between dropping my intentions of helping Amia improve itself through balance aspects, since I can't motivate myself to keep on re-posting the explanations and arguments as to how things work, how they should work or why they aren't the working the way they should.

I don't care for the respect. I don't demand anything.

I already feel that my rather crude, objective and rational outlook on game balance has bored the DM team, as it doesn't really take game playing or role playing ideals into account.

I just post the facts.

The rest is just icing on the cake, to me.

If you fear a SD using Hips on you then either invest in spot allot, and I have been told to invest in things to counter dev crits and bigbies before so do not give that double standard, or move into a open area where there are no shadows. Players who Hips right out in the open is a problem but if you wish to fight a SD that doesn’t do that then do not fight him around shadow producing things like trees and boulders. Also go ahead and report the SD that Hips in a open field or any non shadow areas.

Its always easy to say nerf this or that as long as its not your own skills like dev crit, biggbies, GS or all the instant death spells. Now I do agree with one change if possible on HIPs, when light is cast on the character that you can’t hide period, not HIPs or even corner sneaking till it is worn off or removed from you. At the least perhaps have some icon to show you that light has been cast on you, sometimes I can not tell if it was until someone says hey, I canst light on you, after that its too late and the emersion is broken.

One of the most used and first used and is totally deadly is forceful hand, once that hits you may as well wrap it up because your dead. Do not even say well invest in the counter to it either, that argument only gets you the same, invest in spot to see a SD.

GS has been nerfed several times, and has counters, some which most/anyone can use and limited uses per rest period.

Putting it in the same ballpark as is, as Dev crit or HIPS is wrong in my opinion.

Lets leave anything but HIPS out of this discussion.

Frankly, one should have installed a timer client side with the HAK for hips and be done with it. But C'est live.

HiPS itself doesn't need to be nerfed.

Ron has already pointed out what needs to be fixed with it.

It -is- broken, and Ron has already stated how and why. That's the issue which would be resolved, should it prove possible to add a cooldown to the feature.

IronAngel wrote:

SDs have better AC than many classes. I find it unlikely that you can't stay alive for one round while every other class has to live as long as the spawn is cleared. And if you really can't, the problem is certainly not on the game's side.

Besides, you say you're in trouble because people/critters have more Spot than you have Hide. I fail to see what effect the HiPS timer would have on that. Unless what I asked a few posts ago about breaking combat and getting free Sneaks is true, in which case you're exploiting a bug anyhow.

Is this in respect to PvM, PvP, or general soloing?

In party, the HiPS SD is useless, unless he likes to be the most disliked member of the party. And as such any and all mechanics, broken or otherwise are irrelevant as well.

In PvP, HiPS spamming works only so long as the targets friend the mage, or anyone with AoE spells remains out of the confrontation. In addition, unless the target of the HiPS spammer is undefended, the SD's inferior AB prevents many of his attacks from succeding. So apart from the elite crew who can and apperently will cheat the system, where is the SD so overwhelmingly powerful?

In PvM and soloing with an SD and HiPS spamming, it's a little different. Is the problem about the HiPS spammer not being hit? Sure that's useful. Is it about raking in tons of XP? Not likely, the problem is time. I must be the only player of an SD that cannot gain xp by soloing. The SD, because of spot issues cannot hide from certain creatures by HiPS, and as a result, is then only a corner sneak at that point. High AC is useful, but when being mobbed. As a result the SD is relegated to easier PvM that gives low XP, or tough PvM that negates being able to HiPS. Either way HiPS is not an issue.

By contrast, a paladin of the same level as an SD can solo without a problem where an SD in the same are cannot get all the creatures of a particular spawn before the last one or two despawn. The result is that uless the SD is willing to spend hours to gain XP rather than the minutes that other classes can, then the HiPS spamming argument begins to fail.

My lament is that I have spammed, I have built powerbuilds, but as a usually casual player, I obviosly don't know all the tricks to have a particular ability nerfed. I also, due to the fact that I occasionally do win PvP encounters, have some skill but apperently not enough to matter.

Again, those that are here for RP, or a fun casual experience, must bow to the elite who are cheating instead of just having fun and Rolling with it.

IronAngel wrote:

SDs have better AC than many classes. I find it unlikely that you can't stay alive for one round while every other class has to live as long as the spawn is cleared. And if you really can't, the problem is certainly not on the game's side.

Besides, you say you're in trouble because people/critters have more Spot than you have Hide. I fail to see what effect the HiPS timer would have on that. Unless what I asked a few posts ago about breaking combat and getting free Sneaks is true, in which case you're exploiting a bug anyhow.

First part: Really? Better AC? Seems I need to find a nice SD to learn me some stuff. Yeah, so we need to meet in game so you can show me how to go into the Ilithids or beholders with a SD and not use HIPS but stay alive. Cause I can only go out with my SD with friends who don't mind my SD not able to do much - all other players don't want to have anything to do with my SD

Second part: Oh I don't have any problem with Dev Critters. If they can catch my SD more power to them. My issue is that it sounds to me like everyone wants a character who can do everything and win every battle. You know what my fighter does currently when she sees that pesky AA/SD? Leaves. And free sneaks... hardly worthwhile since she has very few rogue lvls to take advantage of sneaks.

Oh hey that's an idea. If HIPS is going to be nerfed, give SD's sneak attacks!

Bravo21 wrote:

In addition, unless the target of the HiPS spammer is undefended, the SD's inferior AB prevents many of his attacks from succeding.

A HiPS'ing SD'er attacks a flat-footed target. Your AB is irrelevant.

And... learning the mechanics, isn't "cheating". That's your own elitistic ideal of what you would perceive the ulimate role-playing enviroment to be like, where all mechanics of the characters are neglected.

Mr Mago wrote:

A HiPS'ing SD'er attacks a flat-footed target. Your AB is irrelevant.

What? Then how come my SD can't hit those monsters that the other classes can hit? Can't tell you how many times she misses when coming out of HIPS. It's embarrassing. *clearly needs to be a power builder and is not*

IronAngel wrote:

But anyway, I don't think people are quite clear on what's the topic at hand: it's hitting Stealth multiple times a round, or once, but nonetheless staying visible for only the second it takes to attack.

And... to elaborate, in short:

The ability to make yourself non-targetable for any form of counter attacks. May it be targeting spells, or melee attacks.

Bravo and Mago are both going to get breaks. Please keep flaming/insults out of the thread guys.

HIPS spamming

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