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I was looking through and couldn't find any threads or rules about this but I was wondering what the PvP rules are with hips spamming. Fights that last over 15 minutes due to someone spamming hips is just absurd.

And completely legal, afaik. There's always a bigger fish. It's sort of dirty pool, but there's no rules against it.

Wasn't there some 6 second wait rule going in?

I don't think that's been decided as of yet.

There was a good conduct rule between SD's about two years ago. It quickly disappeared however in face of dirty builds, Dev Critting and balance issues. There is always a way to beat the dirtiest moves.

Terra made a hook into HiPS which allows us to create a timer.

Oh ho hoooo.....

Dev Disco wrote:

Terra made a hook into HiPS which allows us to create a timer.

If that is so and is added in to the server would it be possible to let Assassins gain HiP at level 18 (Such a high level since it forces them to not be able to take Epic dodge decreasing how strong HiP is even more, yet still being low enough that every subrace can gain access to it)

One for Dev Crit as well, hehe.

Now I can start working at the pinnacle of my Grands Travaux: the utter destruction of GS.

I have this mental image of Disco sitting at his computer desk lit only by a small lamp light, scripting away, manically laughing the entire time.

:shock:

No Ranger or Assassin HIPS. Already discussed that part.

Btw, looking at Terra's thing, it might not be completely workable. We can't 'Cancel' the Stealth Mode action - we can only toggle it straight back off. Doesn't seem to take care of the primary issues faced.

Put a counter on "Off" and remove stealth whenever you try to get into it within say 10 seconds. Easypeasy.

Dev Disco wrote:

Put a counter on "Off" and remove stealth whenever you try to get into it within say 10 seconds. Easypeasy.

can you do the same for greater sanctuary?

That would be way too merciful.

Why 10 seconds? 6 seconds = 1 round seems more reasonable, since it equals 6 attacks or 1/2 spells on average in pvp.

OR be slightly evil and switch out the stealth feat, then make it require a standard action to activate. (maybe half with haste like other standard actions)

That means you can't stealth and attack in the same round :twisted:

We're discussing HiP's and here comes Ron to bring up Terra's "thing"... tisk... >.>

Dev Disco wrote:

Put a counter on "Off" and remove stealth whenever you try to get into it within say 10 seconds. Easypeasy.

Remove stealth automatically when you get into it, auto unstealthing, is cool - but doesn't counter most of the exploits. You'll still be able to initiate stealth mode (even if it's immediately taken back off) - so you're still going to be able to exploit it to cancel spells, attack sequences, and make your opponents flatfooted.

It's pretty nasty.

Ron has a point... but you all know I'll be all for finding a way to get this done.

Still a lot better chance to get a spell or attack in with it implemented than if its left like this.

Cancelling stealth without it actually keeping a character from using stealth mode seems like a dirty hacky solution. No thanks to that. Either do it cleanly or leave it like it is.

I disagree. I rather a half-working solution than no solution at all when it comes to HiPS. The RP rules behind it are ignored to a large extent, HiPS spamming in PvM allows for an SD to solo with crap AC because the AI can't react quick enough, and in PvP, well we all know the angst of that story.

And for the love of all that is holy Mr. McNuggets, if you can, add a hook that stops a person from entering HiPS at all if there's Light casted on them.

Dev Disco wrote:

Terra made a hook into HiPS which allows us to create a timer.

Dev Disco wrote:

One for Dev Crit as well, hehe.

Now I can start working at the pinnacle of my Grands Travaux: the utter destruction of GS.

^^ I don't mind what you do to GS once you've dealt with them

I don't need to be able to HIDE to sneak atack you to bits or break your spells, I just need to be able to tap F1 and make you break LoS for 1 millisecond. Which is what that "Fixz" will do. Solves nothing, in the end.

That's a damned shame. Anyway to get it to make the check before it stealths?

The second I hit F1, I stealth. There's no delay. you can't make the check before I hide because then I haven't pressed the button yet and you don't know to make the check.

WonWon wrote:

No Ranger or Assassin HIPS. Already discussed that part.

Btw, looking at Terra's thing, it might not be completely workable. We can't 'Cancel' the Stealth Mode action - we can only toggle it straight back off. Doesn't seem to take care of the primary issues faced.

Yeah, setstealth is... particular. Since the event triggers everytime stealth is turned on or off. Had to hook a lower function since "togglemode" only fires when a PC actually toggles and not when the engien disables a mode. Which means the stealthmode event triggers everytime something enters or leaves stealth by any means. I made my own test of this and managed to make a sysytem that "oops. you sumbled and now you have to sit on your ass because you tried to re-stealth to fast." IE: 6 seconds of knockdown. Mind that it doesnt only apply to hips but entering stealthmode reguardless of hips.

Dark Immolation wrote:

I disagree. I rather a half-working solution than no solution at all when it comes to HiPS. The RP rules behind it are ignored to a large extent, HiPS spamming in PvM allows for an SD to solo with crap AC because the AI can't react quick enough, and in PvP, well we all know the angst of that story.

And for the love of all that is holy Mr. McNuggets, if you can, add a hook that stops a person from entering HiPS at all if there's Light casted on them.

If Light finally respects Spell Resistance and a Touch Attack respects Epic Dodge, then they can go ahead and do that.

Using it more quickly than once every 6 seconds breaks it, so I'm all for plugging that. But to answer each of your valid arguments on its own:

1) Ignoring RP rules is not a mechanical problem, it's a people problem.
2) HipS is not the only thing that can enable a character to solo. Getting to 100 Hide + 100 MS means the SD will be seriously lacking in other departments such as saving throws.
3) Again, this is a people problem. The Light rule is more or less asked to be accepted on courtesy, as are any of the HipS rules when it comes to using shadows and so forth. You cannot expect people who want to win to bow to courtesy. Others spam GS, Knockdown, IGMS, Timestop or Death Magic. Most SDs will easily die to a Wail.

Quote:

2) HipS is not the only thing that can enable a character to solo. Getting to 100 Hide + 100 MS means the SD will be seriously lacking in other departments such as saving throws.

People tend to have 0 spot or 100+. You don't need triple digits to beat the 0 spotters and the 100 spotters will probably see you regardless.

That means, yes, your saves are actually just fine and you won't die to death spells.

As a SD myself i should point out that "HiPS Spamming" apparently only becomes and issue in PvP. Noone seems to care if you do it against the monsters but if your in PvP "oh suddenly its a bad thing"

Seriously, its something that needs to be dealt with IC! Not with a DM fix. If you dont know how to prevent HiPS in the first place then you might as well let the SD kill you. If you DO know how to stop HiPS, then use that knowledge to your advantage.

Stop crying because someone has a skill that they use. It's no different then you dev critters that have 100 heal potions in your inventory and spam those. I hate it, yes, but i deal with it ICly, instead of crying to a DM about how often someone uses a potion.

Is it possible to give a -120 on MS and Hide if you enter before the six seconds are up?

Last edited by Dev Disco on Mon, Feb 08 2010, 10:31 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Terra_777 wrote:

WonWon wrote:

No Ranger or Assassin HIPS. Already discussed that part.

Btw, looking at Terra's thing, it might not be completely workable. We can't 'Cancel' the Stealth Mode action - we can only toggle it straight back off. Doesn't seem to take care of the primary issues faced.

Yeah, setstealth is... particular. Since the event triggers everytime stealth is turned on or off. Had to hook a lower function since "togglemode" only fires when a PC actually toggles and not when the engien disables a mode. Which means the stealthmode event triggers everytime something enters or leaves stealth by any means. I made my own test of this and managed to make a sysytem that "oops. you sumbled and now you have to sit on your ass because you tried to re-stealth to fast." IE: 6 seconds of knockdown. Mind that it doesnt only apply to hips but entering stealthmode reguardless of hips.

Yeah, HiPS is like Dev Crit. It's just a little flag on your character that tells the engine "apply x when you perform routine y". They don't do anything interesting themselves, and that's why they are so hard to change.

If only there was a way to simulate the HiPS effect with other means we'd be out of trouble. Unfortunately things like GS are just as peculiar as HiPS.

Sorry Cat. It's been agreed upon and whined about so often that the Big Three are going to be changed no matter what voices argue at this point.

Big Three = Dev Crit, HIPS & GS.

Most whined about abilities in the game.

Cat, I'm not entirely sure you understand how HIPS actually works in regards to the game engine and just how broken it actually becomes in a realtime environment where you can't purposefully whiff at air or enforce a light/shadow counter, as opposed to a turnbased environment.

We are not "Whining". HIPS is hardcore broken and has been since it's introduction in Shadows of Undrentide, for the most part.

That's not even touching the quality of hide/ms gear vs the quality of spot gear, the fact that cornersneaking is still excellent and viable, an SD with ranged instead of melee, the fact that HIPS works independantly of initiative and can break attack flurries before they and the computer can even react, etc etc

TormakSaber wrote:

People tend to have 0 spot or 100+. You don't need triple digits to beat the 0 spotters and the 100 spotters will probably see you regardless.

That means, yes, your saves are actually just fine and you won't die to death spells.

In a world where everything is minmaxed, that is probably true. It doesn't account for Wisdom builds that invest some into the skill but aren't terribly bothered to have it any higher than 80 or 90. It also doesn't account for SDs who actually want to be as good as possible at sneaking, breaking the 100 barrier. Or the situations where you have one of these phat Saving Throw SDs with 70 Hide/MS and the opponent just happens to be a Wizard who has some Spot items, True Sight and etc, and is able to see him and Bigby his ass.

Any given gearset has advantages and disadvantages, and not everyone gears for PvP alone.

TormakSaber wrote:

Cat, I'm not entirely sure you understand how HIPS actually works in regards to the game engine and just how broken it actually becomes in a realtime environment where you can't purposefully whiff at air or enforce a light/shadow counter, as opposed to a turnbased environment.

We are not "Whining". HIPS is hardcore broken and has been since it's introduction in Shadows of Undrentide, for the most part.

That's not even touching the quality of hide/ms gear vs the quality of spot gear, the fact that cornersneaking is still excellent and viable, an SD with ranged instead of melee, the fact that HIPS works independantly of initiative and can break attack flurries before they and the computer can even react, etc etc

I'm guessing the whining thing was directed at me since I'm the only one who's mentioned whining. In which case you can cool it. I was talking in the past, by the general playerbase. There has been a lot of whining, heck I've whined. Be pretty hard pressed to find someone who likely hasn't whined about the abilities to someone at some point.

TormakSaber wrote:

Cat, I'm not entirely sure you understand how HIPS actually works in regards to the game engine and just how broken it actually becomes in a realtime environment where you can't purposefully whiff at air or enforce a light/shadow counter, as opposed to a turnbased environment.

We are not "Whining". HIPS is hardcore broken and has been since it's introduction in Shadows of Undrentide, for the most part.

That's not even touching the quality of hide/ms gear vs the quality of spot gear, the fact that cornersneaking is still excellent and viable, an SD with ranged instead of melee, the fact that HIPS works independantly of initiative and can break attack flurries before they and the computer can even react, etc etc

A question - does it break LoS even if they have enough spot to spot you?

Spot? No. Listen? Yes.

Selvec, I wasn't talking to you or at you at all.

TormakSaber wrote:

Spot? No. Listen? Yes.

Is that a 'bug' for listen? Or is it intended like that (allwing the HiPSer to continue spamming back and forth to prevent LoS from being established)?

If stealth mode can be set in a script, why not just disable the stealth button altogether, and put "toggle stealth mode" on an item?

Boom, instant 6 second cooldown. But of course, it can't be so simple. What misconception am I operating under?

Phearnun wrote:

Is it possible to give a -120 on MS and Hide if you enter before the six seconds are up?

This.

Can you just have like a -120 or -200 hide for 6 seconds after breaking stealth?

Logicality wrote:

If stealth mode can be set in a script, why not just disable the stealth button altogether, and put "toggle stealth mode" on an item?

Boom, instant 6 second cooldown. But of course, it can't be so simple. What misconception am I operating under?

To be honest, I was tinking the same thing. I suppose it would be reallybad for cornersneaks.

Can we please not change HIPS until Dev. Crit has had its big nerf?

Reason, one hit from a Dev. Critter and nearly all HIPsters are deadsters (low fort saves).

Admittedly, its not good for cornersneaks now and such a 6 second cool down, will basically mean, few SDs would stay SDs, since you have to give up 6 levels to get HIPS in the first place. If SDs go back to getting HIPS at say 3rd level, it might still be worth taking. But giving up 3d6 x 2 weapons worth of sneaks a round, for a feat that becomes useless in the face of the Dev. Critter from hell, means you might as well just go cornersneak to start with.

soundofastream wrote:

Can we please not change HIPS until Dev. Crit has had its big nerf?

Reason, one hit from a Dev. Critter and nearly all HIPsters are deadsters (low fort saves).

Admittedly, its not good for cornersneaks now and such a 6 second cool down, will basically mean, few SDs would stay SDs, since you have to give up 6 levels to get HIPS in the first place. If SDs go back to getting HIPS at say 3rd level, it might still be worth taking. But giving up 3d6 x 2 weapons worth of sneaks a round, for a feat that becomes useless in the face of the Dev. Critter from hell, means you might as well just go cornersneak to start with.

As far as I understood will they 'nerf' both of them when time comes.

And I think the change to Dev Crit will only trigger when you score a certain amount of damage.

Ah well, we will see when it comes.

Yurell wrote:

Logicality wrote:

If stealth mode can be set in a script, why not just disable the stealth button altogether, and put "toggle stealth mode" on an item?

Boom, instant 6 second cooldown. But of course, it can't be so simple. What misconception am I operating under?

To be honest, I was tinking the same thing. I suppose it would be reallybad for cornersneaks.

You can't, though.

Well, that kills that idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrVdCkKxty4

Remove the concept of Blink from the coming arguments and try and tell me this is not how you picture what fighting a SD would look like. Swirls of shadows and a person you are never quite able to see as you try and land a hit on them. The way that HiPs is used by us that play Dancers is /exactly/ how someone with such an ability would fight. Striking and then grabbing an opponents shadow to distract, blind and confuse their eyes as we shift to the side, dip low or swing around them to cause the illusion of "disappearing", as HiPs is not a way to really turn invisible just in case someone thinks of countering that I don't understand how it really works.

A Dancer must gather a shadow, that is not his own, in order to ask the shadow to move and confuse the enemy while he hides properly. This is accomplished through one part force of will (asking the shadow I like to say) and one part movement (which can be as small or large as the Dancer wants. The more skilled the less he can get away with I like to say).

HiPs is not broken and there is a way to beat it. Just cause I can't hit someones fast ball doesn't mean that they are cheating. It means I lack the skill to do so. In the same way is someone has the skill to Dance and most people don't it doesn't mean SDs are overpowered. They are exactly what they are suppose to be. Just as Dev crit and GS are exactly what they should be and both also have a IG way to be countered.

Nurf HiPs and you'll see Dancers disappear in general just like they did on Arelith when the ability was removed. Personally, though if this is done I'll see if it's livable first, but I'm writing up Daniel's leaving story already.

People whining that the HiPs are being "misused" or "overpowered" when they could counter it by creating a spotter build is not a good reason to change what is a reasonable use of the skill. All three of these things you are planning on changing /right now/ have a real world feel to their use and also have a way to be defeated.

"Popular", or as I view it anecdotal, evidence against me I say it's not broke. Don't fix it.

Unfortunately, Tormak and I as the two SD 'Experts' so to speak both from a DM Perspective and Player Perspective (Tormak played Nathan Ruiyao, the original Grandmaster Shadowdancer - and I played his successor, Earylduil Na'fairel), we know quite a few 'broken' mechanical bits about it that you probably don't.

...And that we aren't likely to divulge into the public channels, either. Shadowdancers are only counterable by Mages, and while that sounds 'right', that is purely because Mages, well, let's actually not go there. A Shadowdancer who knows his way around PvP will school anyone, Expert PvPer or otherwise. It's a matter of understanding the fundamentals of NWN Mechanics.

And yes, this is a Black Box argument (I tell you the Input (Shadowdancer) and the Output (Broken), but not the Process (Details of Why)), but you're sorta gonna have to deal with it. I 'ent sharing the details, and I will happily edit the posts of anyone who does.

Before the "Punish the Exploiters" argument comes in - Not viable. Black Box reasons again.

That said, HiPS may not be fixable at all, but in the case it can be tweaked to what's needed - it will be.

Can't we implement Critical Shadow Mass?

I'll spare you the metaquantumphysics details but it basically means you explode when you HiPS too often.

HiPS vs. Dev Crit is an absolutely absurd argument. You need 100+ spot to counter one, and 38-39 fort to counter the other. It's ridiculously easy to get the latter if you make an investment on your gear, no matter what class you are playing.

Scimiter wrote:

People whining that the HiPs are being "misused" or "overpowered" when they could counter it by creating a spotter build is not a good reason to change what is a reasonable use of the skill.

I don't want my characters to be spotter builds. I want them to have the exact amount of skills and attributes to suit their character. My half-blind, half-deaf fighter with ANY points in spot or listen is completely against her character. My choices at present are: Live with the fact that I can be destroyed instantly by anyone who can press F1 fast enough, or completely go against RP.

Hell, I gave up playing Raven because I felt incredibly guilty every time I started using HIPS. Some restrictions added may actually make me start playing him again, because then I wouldn't be running around feeling like I could kick (With Raven, maybe slap) the ass of anyone nearby, jump into a shadow, vanish, and repeat.

Dev Disco wrote:

Can't we implement Critical Shadow Mass?

I'll spare you the metaquantumphysics details but it basically means you explode when you HiPS too often.

Yes. Please. If only for hilarity value.

Delays and light penalties, I approve of. 5ft shadow rule is (I think) impossible script wise. (Unless Disco wants to put a trigger in every shadow in the server, and even then I don't know if its possible.)

Here ends the rant. Once again, I apologize for my poor spelling and/or grammar and/or lack of forum expertise.

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