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ainjyll
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 Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 1:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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TormakSaber wrote: Can I get a brief summary here, people? I'm not reading 100 posts of people justifying why their outlier PC deserves to be a lawfull good champion of Bahamut Red.
There are two camps. Camp A says that color of dragon who the DD emulates should not influence how that DD acts. Camp B says that color of a dragon who the DD emulates should influence how that DD acts. As of yet, no agreement has been reached.
Everybody is fully free to RP their character's how they wish within the confines of the rules of Amia, just as I have that same right. If someone wants to play a good chromatic DD, that's fine. I only ask that that person respect my (and my character's) opinion that a good chromatic dragon is a natural contradiction in terms and will never believe anything said DD does is done out of good and it's all in truth just some scheme to do some dastardly deed. _________________  "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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Dwagin
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 1:18 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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TormakSaber wrote: Rras has exenuating circumstances and is a fuzzy example to use as an ... approved half dragon, frankly.
Tormak is correct, there are reasons is why I have spoken little to the effect about it in this thread. There is a reason why he is not. There are IC reasons for this. Some PCs know some of why.
He has a story, a very very long back story. One that I know no PCs know the whole of. The general summation was given for his original application. I think the only one who knows his whole nitty gritty story other than I, is he, simply because it all hasn't been told yet.
I would prefer he would stop being used as an example due to the fact the topic and he have nothing to do together other than a platform to issue opinion on my rp. Using him as an example here is rather pointless. This is about Dragon disciples, of which he is not one, he is a real half dragon.
As an aside:
And I would request if you have issue with me, or how I do things to approach and ask me directly, I take pride in my characters, if I am doing something -wrong- I ask that the staff please tell me so. I try to make them as real and lore centric as I can to the extent of my knowledge and expertise. I have no problems answering questions. But I am not flawless, I am not perfect, nor all knowing.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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P Three
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 1:30 AM |
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Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Yes, Jordis was just the only other half-dragon /I/ know of, though there could be plenty others, and from what I've seen is a good example of the breed (both half-dragon and gold, there's not a lot of Golds running around.)
And Yurell, while /full blooded dragons/ may be absolute (and I'm willing to bet somewhere there's some freak of a gold that's C N or something that we've never heard about because the exception proves the rule), RDD's are not.
And as for the rest of the generic "You suck" insults,
Bite me.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 1:39 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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They can bite you in three days when you come back from your forum ban for your conduct in this thread.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Shade of Blue
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 2:11 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Aug 2008
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Sometimes, I wonder if the only reason I open a thread is to see if Tormak says something sassy.
_________________ Merrien wrote: Hee hee hee hee hee.... snakes wearing sweaters....
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blackvswhite
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 2:17 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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AxlLeigh wrote: And Yurell, while /full blooded dragons/ may be absolute (and I'm willing to bet somewhere there's some freak of a gold that's C N or something that we've never heard about because the exception proves the rule), RDD's are not.
do you know how one becomes a dragon disciple? its not by chance. its by actively seeking out the heritage, and that includes everything about the dragon, including its mannerisms, abilities, skill, talents, vices, weaknesses, and, yes, alignment. You are trying to become as much like the dragon as possible, and that doesn't mean embracing a red dragon's power for good. that wouldn't work. goodness is completely counter heritage and you wouldn't be able to develop as a RDD.
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 2:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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I would like to see 9+ RDD made to be requested or just the RDD class period, that (I think) would cause for no more bickering and would make sense as 10rdd is essentially a half dragon anyways. Mabye the DMs could discuss this and see where it goes. *shrugs*
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Keelah Se'lai
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blackvswhite
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 2:56 AM |
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Joined: 08 Nov 2008
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... or the DM can just check the alignment when the person asks for their breath widget... it can be regulated that way. somebody asks for their dragon type at RDD 3, and DM says not unless you want me to give you the appropriate alignment (unless that causes impossible multiclassing)
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 3:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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That would work too. Any DM input on the suggestion?
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Keelah Se'lai
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Ramika
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 3:08 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Location: Oregon, USA
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drahgon wrote: I would like to see 9+ RDD made to be requested or just the RDD class period, that (I think) would cause for no more bickering and would make sense as 10rdd is essentially a half dragon anyways. Mabye the DMs could discuss this and see where it goes. *shrugs*
Half dragon statistically. Good luck convincing a half dragon by birth your the same as it is. 
But, still. I said this earlier, I'd rather see it requested or more regulated.
_________________
Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 3:38 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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blackvswhite wrote: ... or the DM can just check the alignment when the person asks for their breath widget... it can be regulated that way. somebody asks for their dragon type at RDD 3, and DM says not unless you want me to give you the appropriate alignment (unless that causes impossible multiclassing)
I do this already when someone asks me to change their color. I won't change it if you don't meet the vague alignment requirements.
Most people just ignore me and ask a new DM.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 3:52 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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TormakSaber wrote: blackvswhite wrote: ... or the DM can just check the alignment when the person asks for their breath widget... it can be regulated that way. somebody asks for their dragon type at RDD 3, and DM says not unless you want me to give you the appropriate alignment (unless that causes impossible multiclassing) I do this already when someone asks me to change their color. I won't change it if you don't meet the vague alignment requirements. Most people just ignore me and ask a new DM. Likewise.
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Mostly Retired
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 4:05 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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I'm so tempted to make a Dragon Disciple now and get a DM to randomly roll for her type.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Gunz
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 4:23 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Pfft... you're lazy. Grab a die and do it yourself! Furthermore, take that same die and roll for all major aspects of your character and see what turns up. 
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Scimiter
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:06 AM |
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Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Location: Canada
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Taking into account that I note that the DMs have already said that such aberrations as a evil metallic are allowed now and then I still have to agree with Axl here. It is perfectly reasonable for anyone, or thing, to overcome a base nature if they are set on doing so. The letter of the law should not be a bases to bring such posts into being. If you disagree that is all well and good but when a reasonable statement such as:
Quote: ...sometimes people can overcome their heritage...
is presented there is no need to present back a holier-then-thou and I've got more lore attitude to it. The argument is correct and supported by the fact that the DMs to authorize such PCs to be played. Even if there are some in the world that were not cleared it still stands that they are allowed with sufficient back story. Furthering the point of "find out IC" instead of starting this type of circus.
As with most "problems" that we see on the server most could be avoided reaching such a public forum if you would chose to talk to the individual in question. Rather then tossing the idea between yourself and your friends till someone gets annoyed enough over it and posts as such.
Aside from some choices that I personally find to my dislike I find that the DMs do a find job maintaining the integrity of the realm without making it just another cookie cutter, canon fixed D&D world. You think this server is out of control for allowing exceptions to this? Time for you to go visit some of the other servers out there. You've got the cookie cutter servers, the extreme no rules servers and then you got the just right servers.
In closing I'd just like to say, as I did in quite a few other threads on unnecessary changes, we've got a good mix here. Stop trying to screw with it already _________________ Guys I play: Finng Meras Joshua Steel Daniel Makie Celub Elubmiire Tristan Len'ionel 
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:15 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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WonWon wrote: TormakSaber wrote: blackvswhite wrote: ... or the DM can just check the alignment when the person asks for their breath widget... it can be regulated that way. somebody asks for their dragon type at RDD 3, and DM says not unless you want me to give you the appropriate alignment (unless that causes impossible multiclassing) I do this already when someone asks me to change their color. I won't change it if you don't meet the vague alignment requirements. Most people just ignore me and ask a new DM. Likewise. mabye discuss it to make it a formal requirement?
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Keelah Se'lai
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:16 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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@ Scimter:
Except that by becoming a Dragon Disciple you are not trying to overcome your nature, you are trying to become more like it.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Scimiter
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:28 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Location: Canada
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Yurell wrote: @ Scimter:
Except that by becoming a Dragon Disciple you are not trying to overcome your nature, you are trying to become more like it.
Fair point and quite frankly I'll not pretend I've the lore to counter that. However every PC that I've met in the world is not played as a DD but are played as dragon-blooded. If the player decides that taking RDD PrC is the best way to represent the dragon blood in that PC then once again they are the ones who have the right to make them whatever alignment they choose, within reason, so long as they have sufficient back story for such. Should one choose to actually play a DD then I would question a alignment VS intended color/metal/gem _________________ Guys I play: Finng Meras Joshua Steel Daniel Makie Celub Elubmiire Tristan Len'ionel
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:30 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Dragon Discples ARE dragon blooded.
Fractionally. Like 16th. 32nd. 64th.
None of this 1/4th, 1/3rd stuff that's so prevalent (though obnviously they exist, otherwise you couldn't get to the 16ths et. al.). It, like 1/4th celestials and 1/4th fiends is merely an excuse to play a character that looks extremely planar/exotic without having to request a half celestial/etc/etc.
Re: Yurell
I rolled your d12, have fun with a Bronze Dragon Disciple.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Scimiter
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:41 AM |
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Player
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Location: Canada
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TormakSaber wrote: Dragon Discples ARE dragon blooded.
Agreed. However not all dragon blooded are required to be DD. They simply can /be/. A "man" born with red blood in him may have a fiery temper, which Ani plays quite well when he's ticked at something I might add, but that doesn't mean he's going to end up on a path to embody all that a red dragon represents and I think that is how more people seem to play on the server with this class.
I am merely bring to light the fact that, for better lack of a word, picking on the people that have the RDD class and telling them they /have/ to play it as a DD instead of the justification of their blood which most choose the class for is a unnecessary path to follow.
For the record Tormak I do not intend to be contrary to your statement. I am just using it to expand my original statement. Thank you for bringing it up _________________ Guys I play: Finng Meras Joshua Steel Daniel Makie Celub Elubmiire Tristan Len'ionel
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BrainSplitter
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Location: Victoria, Australia
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Any Character that has dragon blood to the point wherein they are no longer an '<Base> With Dragon Ancestry' needs to be requested. RDDs are RDDs. RDDs are not "Free Dragonkin Without Request"
_________________
Mostly Retired
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 5:48 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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I'm pretty sure Ani IS a RDD, not sure about being half blooded or not, anyways, as RDD it is a voluntary decision to follow the path of the dragon blood in you in order to come as close as you can to a true dragon. For those who want to "fight against their heritage" it's possible to rp a dragonkin without taking RDD lvls, I do it as Daishar.
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Keelah Se'lai
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 6:06 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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TormakSaber wrote: Dragon Discples ARE dragon blooded.
Fractionally. Like 16th. 32nd. 64th.
None of this 1/4th, 1/3rd stuff that's so prevalent (though obnviously they exist, otherwise you couldn't get to the 16ths et. al.). It, like 1/4th celestials and 1/4th fiends is merely an excuse to play a character that looks extremely planar/exotic without having to request a half celestial/etc/etc. It gets better ... the DMG refers to the 'thousandth' generation, meaning that the character can be 1/2^1000 parts dragon* TormakSaber wrote: Re: Yurell
I rolled your d12, have fun with a Bronze Dragon Disciple.
Cheers Tormak
*For those interested, that's 1/ 10.715.086.071.862.673.209.484.250.490.600.018.105.614.048.117.055.336.074.437.503.883.703.510.511.249.361.224.931.983.788.156.958.581.275.946.729.175.531.468.251.871.452.856.923.140.435.984.577.574.698.574.803.934.567.774.824.230.985.421.074.605.062.371.141.877.954.182.153.046.474.983.581.941.267.398.767.559.165.543.946.077.062.914.571.196.477.686.542.167.660.429.831.652.624.386.837.205.668.069.376
Which I shrank to enable it to fit across my screen without stretching it. In other words ... ~1E-301 parts Dragon (that's 300 zeroes after the decimal point). So an infinitesimal amount.
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 9:55 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Scimiter wrote: Agreed. However not all dragon blooded are required to be DD. They simply can /be/. A "man" born with red blood in him may have a fiery temper, which Ani plays quite well when he's ticked at something I might add, but that doesn't mean he's going to end up on a path to embody all that a red dragon represents and I think that is how more people seem to play on the server with this class.
As Tormak and Ron said: if you take the RDD class, you are a Dragon Disciple. If you want your dragon ancestry to manifest in any way at all, even a bad breath, you have to take RDD (barring sorceror/bard powers, but you couldn't ascertain it's a dragon heritage specifically). If there are characters who claim to be part dragon and manifest dragon traits naturally because of that, they are clearly violating basic character creation rules. You can only play one of the freely available subraces on the sidebar, and "Dragonblood" isn't one of them. Sure, you can have 1/4 dragon blood because we haven't explicitly banned it, but it cannot show in any way without the RDD class or you're breaking rules.
None of the above applies to DM-approved special PCs, of course. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:13 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Um, Iron, considering we're still arguing about that amongst ourselves, I doubt it's a good idea to sell it as fact.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Yurell
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:25 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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IronAngel wrote: If there are characters who claim to be part dragon and manifest dragon traits naturally because of that, they are clearly violating basic character creation rules.
I hadn't realised this ... or is this Tormak's issue of contention
_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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IronAngel
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 10:32 AM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, it's what the rules state now, open for anyone to read and interpret. I suppose we are discussing whether it's legit, but the current posted rules obviously stand. You can dispute the interpretation, but the material is public and everything relevant is posted in R&L/Subraces.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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oshizo2
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 14:48 PM |
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Player
Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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The alignment thing forces me to play afics as a NE DD because he is a cleric of tiamat. I am sure that is within the bounds of being reasonable. If not I would like to know as ik have been playing him for a couple of years. I would hate to think I have been doing it wrong this whole time.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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Really Evil Pigeon
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 15:23 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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yeah the diety system does ristrict like that.
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ainjyll
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 15:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Jun 2006
Location: wilmington, nc
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Yep. If your character gets accepted when you try to bind to the deity's idol, you're fine. The system will tell you if you're alignment isn't right.
_________________ "I once took the high road and it took me straight to hell and I stood there all by myself." -Hank III
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oshizo2
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 18:54 PM |
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Joined: 22 May 2007
Location: USA, Mississippi
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The reason I said that at all was because generally speaking I assumed to be more like a black I would pick CE but I guess NE is fine as well? The deity sys requires me to be NE. Tiamat doesn't a CE cleric. I may be mistaken but pretty sure and I am pretty sure lots of blacks as well as reds are CE.
_________________
Iman Emanni: Learned, wanderer, dangerous
Jurl Blackskull: Why people fear the underdark.
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drahgon
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Posted: Fri, Feb 05 2010, 23:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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IronAngel wrote: If there are characters who claim to be part dragon and manifest dragon traits naturally because of that, they are clearly violating basic character creation rules.
so what you are saying, if I understand this right, that it's against the rules for me to rp my dragonkin daishar as a natural quarter blooded dragonkin, the bastard son of a half dragon father and human mother merely because there isn't a subrace of "dragon blooded"? I don't even have a sub race on him and don't have any RDD classes taken because he hasn't needed to his dragon heritage further nor wanted to.
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Keelah Se'lai
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 0:04 AM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, I brought it up properly on the DM forums now. I don't know yet what the final conclusion will be.
To me, it seems to be exactly what our rules state:
Quote: The following races can be played freely:
¤ All the races and subraces available via the Amia Subrace System, including:
¤ Tiefling, Aasimar
¤ Kobold, Goblin
¤ Genasi Races (earth, air, fire, water)
¤ Orog, Ogrillion
¤ Lightfoot Halfling, Strongheart Halfling, Ghostwise Halfling
¤ Half-drow
¤ Moon Elf, Sun Elf, Wild Elf, Wood Elf, Drow, Feytouched
¤ Shield Dwarf, Gold Dwarf, Duergar
¤ All basic NWN races
1/4 dragon or, indeed, "part dragon" at all is not included in that list. (Which is a long list simply saying "All available Amian subraces and only available Amian subraces.")
You can't play a quarter gnoll furry either, "merely" because there's no subrace like that. If your race field says Human and you don't have mechanical RDD traits, I don't personally see why you'd be anything but human. But some would disagree, so don't take my word for it. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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drahgon
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 0:11 AM |
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Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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So those and the requested ones are the only races and partial races that "exist" in your opinion?
_________________
Keelah Se'lai
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 0:16 AM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Anything is a requestable race.
But it doesn't matter what "exists." There are mind flayers, Bhaalspawns and kenders from Dragonlance, but you're simply not allowed to play one.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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drahgon
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 0:30 AM |
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Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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Ok so then we have established that merely because there is not a specified "subrace" for it, you have a problem with me playing a quarter blooded dragon kin. Tell ya what, if a dragonblooded subrace goes in, I will have no qualms paying the dc to rebuild with the subrace, pending a request approval since subrace change requires that I believe. Until then I don't see any real problem, after all, how else do sorcerers and rdd get their partial blooded heritage?
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Keelah Se'lai
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IronAngel
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 0:37 AM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I have a problem with anyone playing anything that isn't A) a freely available subrace or B) DM-approved, requested character.
Sorcerers and bards are assumed to have some distant blood of a magical creature, possibly dragon. They manifest this through their magic, and through their magic only. They don't look like dragons, night hags or rakshasa. Red Dragon Disciples are normal people too, with slumbering dragon blood. They only grow scales, claws and wings after they begin the rituals of advanging in the class.
If you want to manifest special powers and traits, you need to have the mechanical aspects to show for it: for Outsider traits, that means taking Tiefling, Aasimar or Genasi subrace. For dragonblooded, it means advancing in the Dragon Disciple class.
All this is just my interpretation of the public rules accessible. We will discuss the authoritative interpretation in the DM forums for a definite conclusion.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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drahgon
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 0:51 AM |
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Joined: 30 May 2009
Location: Idaho
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IronAngel wrote: All this is just my interpretation of the public rules accessible. We will discuss the authoritative interpretation in the DM forums for a definite conclusion.
much appreciated
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Keelah Se'lai
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American_Knight
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 4:20 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Location: The United States of America
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*tip toeing in* Eww! Forums! Ew ew ew!
*ahem*
Alright, I play a part Red dragon elf as my primary character, honestly I take a great deal of pride in him as I feel quite natural playing him.
Yes, Anirikael is Good aligned, but not without stress.
Anirikael does have 10 RDD levels, that was when I was still reading the draconomicon and missed the whole DD class.
And yes, Anirikael has a backstory to justify his alignment.
Now, with introductions provided, speaking of the topic.
I gotta say that I agree that a great many people do take their classes, races, alignments, practically everything totally wrong. I've seen a bunch of good tieflings and loads of evil aasimar, as well as gnomish druids, chaotic paladins, and even the dreaded lawful good Red Dragon disciples.
I don't support them, but I don't honestly believe that restrictions on our choices will help creativity. Maybe I am simply being selfish in reality and just trying to make sure I don't lose my favorite toy dragon person, but when I was reading through this thread, seeing all these suggestions with how to deal with the Draconic population... I couldn't help but think of Arelith.
I bounce back on Arelith once in a while to remind myself of why I play on Amia, seeing all the new little restrictions they put in, examining their little FaQ book you spawn with where it says, in short "If you want anything we'll laugh at you and if you persist we'll kick you in the pants"
I agree with several of the points made here, but I don't see anything productive coming from placing a restriction on a class, that's a step toward a rival server that, honestly, has a very tight noose around your neck the moment you enter it, I feel it every time I go there, and I go there to remind myself of how fun freedom is.
I will not say I am God and you must all bow before my great wisdom, I only just turned 18 years old, but even I have the ability to see things in comparison. I'm not sure how many of you are American, but one of the best things I love about my country is what it was forged as; an idea of freedom, where people could make their own choices, where they live off their own passions and imaginations, and not submit to some tyrant who drained their savings and starved their people. I don't know if America is what is was idealized as by it's founders today, but that's the forgotten American way.
Amia is a fantasy, where anyone can go and be what they want to be, rather than the restrictions laid on their backs by reality. Now, putting this restriction on Dragon Disciples would most definitely make it all the more rewarding to recieve, and yes it will relieve the dragon populace, but will it, in the end, make everyone feel the security they do; that they have the choice?
If these restrictive labels are initiated, by all means I will comply, but I can't say I am going to stick around for the awaiting fall of the freedom that I come here to experience. I also would be so bold as to say, there are people who would see this the exact same way, and we might walk out the door together. Thank you for reading.
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"Truth, Justice, and the American way..." "Give me Liberty or give me Death"
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 5:01 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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American_Knight wrote: I gotta say that I agree that a great many people do take their classes, races, alignments, practically everything totally wrong. I've seen a bunch of good tieflings and loads of evil aasimar, as well as gnomish druids, chaotic paladins, and even the dreaded lawful good Red Dragon disciples.
I don't support them, but I don't honestly believe that restrictions on our choices will help creativity. Maybe I am simply being selfish in reality and just trying to make sure I don't lose my favorite toy dragon person, but when I was reading through this thread, seeing all these suggestions with how to deal with the Draconic population... I couldn't help but think of Arelith. You are treating it as if racial tendencies towards alignment are comparable to Dragon Disciples - they're not. A Dragon Disciple gains her power by activating her dragon blood and actively trying to emulate their dragon type. American_Knight wrote: I bounce back on Arelith once in a while to remind myself of why I play on Amia, seeing all the new little restrictions they put in, examining their little FaQ book you spawn with where it says, in short "If you want anything we'll laugh at you and if you persist we'll kick you in the pants"
I agree with several of the points made here, but I don't see anything productive coming from placing a restriction on a class, that's a step toward a rival server that, honestly, has a very tight noose around your neck the moment you enter it, I feel it every time I go there, and I go there to remind myself of how fun freedom is. "Another server does this so it must be bad" is just as bad as "another server does this so it must be good". It isn't helpful - just like you have to be LG to play a Paladin, Evil to play a blackguard, neutral to play a druid, why should there not be alignment restrictions for DDs? Even within one step of the alignment would be good. American_Knight wrote: I will not say I am God and you must all bow before my great wisdom, I only just turned 18 years old, but even I have the ability to see things in comparison. Insinuating that others here don't? Or am I just reading too much into that? American_Knight wrote: I'm not sure how many of you are American, but one of the best things I love about my country is what it was forged as; an idea of freedom, where people could make their own choices, where they live off their own passions and imaginations, and not submit to some tyrant who drained their savings and starved their people. I don't know if America is what is was idealized as by it's founders today, but that's the forgotten American way. While I won't comment on the origins of your nation, or of how unbiased your teaching of it may have been, appeal to patriotism is certainly an argument that annoys me. This has nothing to do about your country, and the comparison exists only to make it appear that anyone who disagrees is unpatriotic. I'm sorry, it's just an argument that really gets on my nerves. American_Knight wrote: Amia is a fantasy, where anyone can go and be what they want to be, rather than the restrictions laid on their backs by reality. Now, putting this restriction on Dragon Disciples would most definitely make it all the more rewarding to recieve, and yes it will relieve the dragon populace, but will it, in the end, make everyone feel the security they do; that they have the choice? Choice is only good to an extent - there need to be restrictions as well. "More freedom is always good" is a dangerous viewpoint, as we got where we are by limiting freedom - note how not everyone is a DM? While I'm not saying this is necessarily so in this instance, I disagree with the notion 'more choice is good because it's more choice'. P.S. My tone is calm (or is meant to be) ... if I sound agitated it's a failing in my communication  [/quote]
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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Ramika
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 5:12 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Location: Oregon, USA
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I hate the "It's the American way," argument too, Yurell. And I -am- American.
Quote: You are treating it as if racial tendencies towards alignment are comparable to Dragon Disciples - they're not. A Dragon Disciple gains her power by activating her dragon blood and actively trying to emulate their dragon type.
That's pretty much it. But, a lot of us have said that.
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Logins: Ramika, Li'lMikachu
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American_Knight
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 5:44 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Location: The United States of America
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I'm afraid you've taken a lot of what I said and emphasized it in a bad light.
-Arelith is a reminder to me of constraint and what could be, if you want restrictions go try it out, maybe you'll like it. Another server's bad traits or good traits are a Good thing to look at, it's called learning from history or others mistakes, something a lot of people don't get.
-Maybe I am suggesting that others can't tell one thing from another, not all of us watched Sesame street :p
-I was referring to the origin of my pride in freedom and saying it is a good thing, I wasn't saying that if you don't agree with me you hate America, jeez...
-Choices make things fun, customization is fun. I've beta tested and played several MMO's that went exceedingly well until suddenly the staff started taking everything away from the players, that's when they failed, and that's what I am trying to prevent here.
Now, since we're debating the class, let's debate.
Reading the dragon disciple class from the DMG, I find nothing in the Requirements that say you must share alignment with your chosen dragon, "These characters become Dragon Disciples, who use their magical powers to ignite their dragon blood, realizing it's fullest potential"
This here refers to them realizing physical BLOOD to it's fullest potential, while some may interpret it as a part of their mind as well, that is not clear enough to be enforced and policed, it mostly implies the body.
In the Complete Divine there is a prestige class called Geomancer, which makes a character form into aspects of nature and it's creatures, when they grow fur and wings they don't end up with a cat's curiosity and a parrot's repetitious vocabulary simply because their body forms to the land they channel through their physical form. Maybe that's not quite the same concept, but as I see it, them exposing themselves to the magic in such a way it will transform them in such dramatic effects is a similar process that the Dragon Disciple undergoes.
When exposed to magic for extended periods of time, a character of extreme age or exposed to extreme magic may develop traits of that specific magic, this is called Drift magic. Dragons have the ability to deal magic spontaneously, they are naturally linked to it, and so in theory, if you have the blood of dragons, and were to expose yourself to this magic purposefully and willfully, you may be able to force it to expose itself on your person and alter you. THAT is how I see Dragon Disciples.
By the way, you say your tone is calm, yet you said yourself that my argument gets on your nerves, perhaps I am reading into it too closely, but you may want to examine your continuity.
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"Truth, Justice, and the American way..." "Give me Liberty or give me Death"
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Gunz
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 5:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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American_Knight wrote: I gotta say that I agree that a great many people do take their classes, races, alignments, practically everything totally wrong. I've seen a bunch of good tieflings and loads of evil aasimar, as well as gnomish druids, chaotic paladins, and even the dreaded lawful good Red Dragon disciples.
What about Gnomish Druids? Why do they get bunched in with that group? Gnomish Druids exist just as much as a Hin Druid would exist. They have two nature gods who support Druids even: Baervan Wildwanderer and Segojan Earthcaller. If you wanted to mention a race that don't commonly have Druids, you should have said Orcs.
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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 5:54 AM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote: If you wanted to mention a race that don't commonly have Druids, you should have said Orcs. And drow.
On what concerns Dragon Disciples, all this discussion is making me want to stop playing mine, afraid I am doing it all wrong. I tend to say that the "chaotic" part of his alignment is played/portrayed more than the "evil". I RP his evil side as his "arsehat" behaviour and often openly malevolent remarks.
But after reading this thread, I do not think it is enough?
You (in general) might be mistaking me as vain, but I would really appreciate if I got PMs of DMs if they think I am playing my DD wrong, and perhaps suggesting how I could improve that. I am not good at playing evil characters, but this time I am trying to make it work.
I am really, really close of simply stop playing him, probably unable to fully represent his CE-ness.
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BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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Yurell
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:00 AM |
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Player
Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Location: ANU, behind the coffee mug (+10 GMT)
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American_Knight wrote: By the way, you say your tone is calm, yet you said yourself that my argument gets on your nerves, perhaps I am reading into it too closely, but you may want to examine your continuity. There's nothing wrong with that continuity. My tone doesn't have to be agitated when responding to something I dislike, such as an Appeal to Patriotism. American_Knight wrote: -Maybe I am suggesting that others can't tell one thing from another, not all of us watched Sesame street :p Oh, so it was denigration then? I've leaped on that conclusion too often and so wished to check first. American_Knight wrote: Reading the dragon disciple class from the DMG, I find nothing in the Requirements that say you must share alignment with your chosen dragon, "These characters become Dragon Disciples, who use their magical powers to ignite their dragon blood, realizing it's fullest potential"
This here refers to them realizing physical BLOOD to it's fullest potential, while some may interpret it as a part of their mind as well, that is not clear enough to be enforced and policed, it mostly implies the body. No, it's not a requirement in the P&P where you have a DM to watch over you every second. But it is a suggestion here. And before you leap on the word 'blood' and take it literally, if you wish to take it that literally anything that has a dragon ancestor 'a thousand generations ago' has not a drop of blood in them - there simply aren't enough particles in the blood for any to be in there. Taking that into account, it seems reasonable to assume they mean it figuratively. Now how does 'blood' come into this? The fact is that as you point out they 'ignite their dragon blood'. Once again assuming the ignition is figurative, this means that they activate their draconic traits - one draconic trait is to be attached to one alignment. American_Knight wrote: In the Complete Divine there is a prestige class called Geomancer, which makes a character form into aspects of nature and it's creatures, when they grow fur and wings they don't end up with a cat's curiosity and a parrot's repetitious vocabulary simply because their body forms to the land they channel through their physical form. Maybe that's not quite the same concept, but as I see it, them exposing themselves to the magic in such a way it will transform them in such dramatic effects is a similar process that the Dragon Disciple undergoes. But the things they turn into don't even have a strong disposition to an alignment - in fact, they're neutral because they aren't even intelligent enough to grasp the concept of alignment. American_Knight wrote: When exposed to magic for extended periods of time, a character of extreme age or exposed to extreme magic may develop traits of that specific magic, this is called Drift magic. Dragons have the ability to deal magic spontaneously, they are naturally linked to it, and so in theory, if you have the blood of dragons, and were to expose yourself to this magic purposefully and willfully, you may be able to force it to expose itself on your person and alter you. THAT is how I see Dragon Disciples.
Source?
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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player
يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:14 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Geomancer isn't qequivalent to Dragon Discople and more importantly Drift as a concept only applies to the Geomancer class specifically and no one else.
The DMG is a 'bad source' for RDD just like it is for a lot of PrCs just because most PrCs exist as a paragraph of flavor text and a table of statistics. It's up to the DMs to create more to go on with it.
I and a few others would appreciate if you didn't use this forum as your soapbox to bash Arelith. It's not needed. The servers cater to different demographics. Both are amazing servers run by people who know what they are doing.
Frankly, I think you shot yourself in the foot by bringing up the whole "EXCUSE ME I THOUGHT THIS WAS AMERICA! THIS IS AMERICA!" argument.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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American_Knight
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:36 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Location: The United States of America
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-I don't believe there is a thing wrong with patriotism, though as I said, my pride is in the idea of what my country was forged in, not the country I live in now, and I did not say amia was American, I said it had a quality I considered refreshing similar to that which I loved about my country's history, though perhaps I was mistaken.
-The source for drift magic is in Complete Divine, page 41 under Geomancer, though it's not so named as my friend who directed me to it. Drift magic opens an entire field to consider, one I thought was a perfect explanation for both Geomancer's transformations, as well as dragon disciples.
-Arelith has it's own qualities, but as I said, there is a specific noose that I come to Amia to be free from, I have said nothing I regret and everything I say I mean. I am speaking from what experience I have, this path is, as some would say; "Bad juju" or "The beginning of the end" and I have seen it time after time. The reason I play here instead of the occasional MMO's I usually do is because the staff was only concerned with making the game fun, not taking everyone's money, this is how I viewed it.
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"Truth, Justice, and the American way..." "Give me Liberty or give me Death"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:40 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Drift is specifically the quality that Geomancers' class abilities are called. Nothing more.
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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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American_Knight
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:45 AM |
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Player
Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Location: The United States of America
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obviously my opinions weigh little when every topic I can muster will simply be disregarded, thank you for your attention to the matter.
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"Truth, Justice, and the American way..." "Give me Liberty or give me Death"
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Dwagin
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Posted: Sat, Feb 06 2010, 6:49 AM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Draconic Psyche is specific for each color type and laid out in the Draconomicon. It is the fact that draconic blood is present, its like uncaging the beast within, instincts which were not present before become that way, or at least that's my take on it.
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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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