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alamut
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 Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 11:06 AM |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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It seems that different people have different opinions in game about the sweet relationship between Bane and Tiamat. According to forgottenrealms.wikia, Tiamat is the queen of evil dragons and a servant of the greater god Bane  . But the main question is: what do we know about this on Amia ? What's the official information ?
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soundofastream
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 11:17 AM |
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007
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Sounds like DnD 4.0 source material you're using? Amia is based on 3.0.
_________________
Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 11:24 AM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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The wiki is 4e and bad bad bad.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Maias227
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 12:02 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Location: Denmark (GMT+1)
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Forgotten realms wiki is indeed 4'th edition and for any faith/religion or deity related question you can't use it, as everything is changed. A multitude of gods are dead, some have become mere vesals and so on and so fourth.
In short stick to the amia wiki or follow some of the faith links in the link collection.
_________________
...Hereof follows that the social contract is only beneficial as long as all have something and none have too much...
- Rousseau Book 1 Chapter 9 in "The Social Contract"
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Dwagin
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 12:07 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Tiamat serving a human god to me is wrong on so many levels.
I'd like to find whomever came up with that idea in 4e and give him/her a verbal dressing down.
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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alamut
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 13:17 PM |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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Maias227 wrote: Forgotten realms wiki is indeed 4'th edition and for any faith/religion or deity related question you can't use it, as everything is changed. A multitude of gods are dead, some have become mere vesals and so on and so fourth.
In short stick to the amia wiki or follow some of the faith links in the link collection.
Hmm... It seems there is nothing on Amia wiki related to deities *cough*
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AlphaWaves
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 13:20 PM |
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Player
Joined: 16 Jun 2006
Location: I'm pretty lost but I don't wanna be found.
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_________________ "The householder's disdain for the vagabond hides a hint of jealousy."
~ A hin proverb
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Really Evil Pigeon
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 13:21 PM |
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Joined: 01 Aug 2005
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Isn't tiamat against all gods.. because they are tyrants? and then most defiantly the god of Tyrants!.. and it says in faiths and pantheons... that bane is actually listed as someone she hates
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762
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 15:06 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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REP is correct. Tiamat is a potential rival for Bane's portfolio of Tyranny. The two are not on friendly terms at all.
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 16:23 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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Dwagin wrote: Tiamat serving a human god to me is wrong on so many levels.
I'd like to find whomever came up with that idea in 4e and give him/her a verbal dressing down.
QFE
We were having the same discussion before and I would never with my Tiamat fist dragon kin embrace the idea that the Supreme Goddess of the Chromatic Dragons would bow to any human God. At least for my kin, this is very close to blasphemy.
She would hate Bane and other Gods, but she would deal if with them if needed because she is in the end searching for the ultimate goal of spreading evil and enlarging the territory for her children, the chromatics of all forms.
Edit: Edited some typos. _________________ 
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
Last edited by Delarwyn on Wed, Jan 20 2010, 17:06 PM, edited 2 times in total.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 16:49 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Wait, someone out there actually thinks that an evil dragon goddess, akin to Lolth in racial prejudice and conquering, would actually even consider for a moment, allying with a human god who specializes in tyranny, a form of ruling over others.
...
I'm sorry, but who's been smoking something and where can I get some?
Edit: But seriously now. I believe 4.0 exarchs are less servents of a god, and more just people who happen to be in that gods domain. For example. The goddess of bad luck, Beshaba (I think thats it), is Tempus exarch, a god of war who believes in honourable combat.
Errrr, problem. Yep.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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762
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 17:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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I think most can agree it's really for the best of no one ever brings up 4.0 canon again. *sagenod*
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 18:51 PM |
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Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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Delarwyn wrote: Dwagin wrote: Tiamat serving a human god to me is wrong on so many levels.
I'd like to find whomever came up with that idea in 4e and give him/her a verbal dressing down. Even if not doing so means death?
In 4.0 the gods have been as shaken as the mortals and had to adapt to a new and violent cosmology. Tiamat could have held onto a public display of her pride and perished along with other deities, or she could have swallowed her pride as a mother dragon swallows the eggs of her young to nurse them in her scaled furnace of a womb, until the day that they hatch and she can at last claim the same right in the heavens that her children bear on earth - supremacy over men and their gods.
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ShortSlasher
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 20:00 PM |
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Player
Joined: 21 May 2007
Location: Western Mass
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alamut
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 20:07 PM |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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SephiraAndy wrote:
Thank you ! Still, there is little information about a possible relationship between both. And I would like some official information to conduce a better RP between Amontep (banite) and Ebony(tiamat). Isn't there anything basic that Amontep should know ? Or I'll have to conduce and find out it ICly ?
And... for an official information I would like a DM opinion about it ^^
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 20:16 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Uhm...
Tiamat is a human goddess originally of the Untheric pantheon. Chromatics occasioanlly respect and fear her, but do not consider her their goddess or worthy of worship; apart from a few exceptions.
Her cult is composed mainly of humans, and operates in the Old Empires region.
She joined the Faerûnian pantheon in 1370-1371, and it makes only sense that she would eventually clash with Bane and either yield or be destroyed. I think it's a shame because it plays down the cultural aspect and conflict between societies, not because it doesn't make sense.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 20:18 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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alamut wrote: SephiraAndy wrote: Thank you ! Still, there is little information about a possible relationship between both. And I would like some official information to conduce a better RP between Amontep (banite) and Ebony(tiamat). Isn't there anything basic that Amontep should know ? Or I'll have to conduce and find out it ICly ? And... for an official information I would like a DM opinion about it ^^ Well, whatever their relationship, your PC wouldn't have a clue. _________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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762
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 21:31 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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Wouldn't the clergies of the respective faiths have a clue who their god is in conflict with?
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Delarwyn
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 21:34 PM |
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Player
Joined: 09 Dec 2007
Location: Aligators land...
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Yossarin wrote: Delarwyn wrote: Dwagin wrote: Tiamat serving a human god to me is wrong on so many levels.
I'd like to find whomever came up with that idea in 4e and give him/her a verbal dressing down. Even if not doing so means death? In 4.0 the gods have been as shaken as the mortals and had to adapt to a new and violent cosmology. Tiamat could have held onto a public display of her pride and perished along with other deities, or she could have swallowed her pride as a mother dragon swallows the eggs of her young to nurse them in her scaled furnace of a womb, until the day that they hatch and she can at last claim the same right in the heavens that her children bear on earth - supremacy over men and their gods. She could, but, why would you follow a Goddess, that had to swallow her pride? Why not go for a God that could remain the most powerful of them all and that could benefit you much better?
A red dragon for example, would favor the most powerful of the Gods if Tiamat fell, he would say, you are weak, I rather or be by myself or worship a better God. _________________
Signature by Qualiz
Del's Characters Entry - Amiawiki.
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Yossarin
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 22:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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I was just BS'ing to see if anyone would buy it, Del.  It is commonly known amongst some of the nerds I've talked to that people mistake her for a dragon in god form.
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Lutra
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 22:16 PM |
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Joined: 12 Feb 2008
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Meh....I guess this is why Bahamut has become the servant of Torm. They had to upkeep the balance.
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Dwagin
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 22:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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Yossarin wrote: I was just BS'ing to see if anyone would buy it, Del. It is commonly known amongst some of the nerds I've talked to that people mistake her for a dragon in god form. Are you saying she's not actually got a draconic form as a god? I'm just trying to understand. I know she typically appears as 'The Dark Lady', however.. another question:
Is the Draconomicon not considered cannon in FR?
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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CatInBox
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 23:09 PM |
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Joined: 15 Jul 2009
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I might also wanna point out that in 4.0 (evil and should be burned)
Bahamut is supposed to be a servant of Tyr (or Torm, i forget). Either way, its still Fsked up.
Edit : oops, missed previous post about it. Still the idea that a dragon god would serve humans, when they have alot more problems of their own, is ridiculous. Bahamut would AID Torm, but not be his servant.
_________________
akai tsuki akai tsuki
tsumi wo okashi ta monodomo no
kegare wo kiyomeru
akai tsuki
koyoi wa dare ga umarekawaru
koyoi wa dare ga umarekawaru
Last edited by CatInBox on Wed, Jan 20 2010, 23:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 23:10 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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Dwagin wrote: Yossarin wrote: I was just BS'ing to see if anyone would buy it, Del. It is commonly known amongst some of the nerds I've talked to that people mistake her for a dragon in god form. Are you saying she's not actually got a draconic form as a god? I'm just trying to understand. I know she typically appears as 'The Dark Lady', however.. another question: Is the Draconomicon not considered cannon in FR? Considering it;s been the basis of my DMing for my entire tenure, I certainly hope it is.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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BlackDahlya
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Posted: Wed, Jan 20 2010, 23:15 PM |
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Joined: 17 Aug 2005
Location: Land of the Scorching Sun, Empowered by Global Warming
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CatInBox wrote: I might also wanna point out that in 4.0 (evil and should be burned)
Bahamut is supposed to be a servant of Tyr (or Torm, i forget). Either way, its still Fsked up.
Edit : oops, missed previous post about it. Still the idea that a dragon god would serve humans, when they have alot more problems of their own, is ridiculous. Bahamut would AID Torm, but not be his servant.
At the Empyrian Odissey trilogy, when Bahamut and his dragons appear to help saving the House of the Triad from an incursion of demons, it is specifically said that they came to aid.
I think they are not servants, but allies.
EDIT: In case it was not obvious, that trilogy is one of many written to explain some of the changes happened/happening on 4.0
_________________
BlackDahlya
Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath
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alamut
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 0:01 AM |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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762 wrote: Wouldn't the clergies of the respective faiths have a clue who their god is in conflict with?
I hope so, because If not, Amontep will marry with the enemy !  I mean... that would be a forbidden romance (aka Romeo and Juliet).
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P Three
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 0:09 AM |
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Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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My idea, as a Banite-player type.
Bane would try to make Tiamat his servant. Because he's a tyrant. It's what they do.
Tiamat would say "SCREW YOU!" and revolt.
Now, as a follower of Bane, especially as a cleric, you are /required/ by faith to turn those you can to him, and kill those who don't turn. If you don't, Bane gets mad, and you Fall. By not trying to turn them, you are forsaking Him for a mortal, and that never ends well.
_________________ Bobo_Underhill wrote: Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw! Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of EilistraeeDanika Nefzen: Druid of the EarthmotherDelia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 1:59 AM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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alamut wrote: 762 wrote: Wouldn't the clergies of the respective faiths have a clue who their god is in conflict with? I hope so, because If not, Amontep will marry with the enemy ! I mean... that would be a forbidden romance (aka Romeo and Juliet). No, that would be a romance where both character have made mortal assumptions about their gods. Which makes plenty of sense. Since the divine cosmology of the gods has never been public knowledge. It's why evil gods are worshipped openly in some places, and not in others.
Amia is an odd bastard in the sense that every single adventruer has an indepth and Demi-God knowledge of dieties and there cosmology. Typically they shouldn't know, and probably can only make assumptions based on what they have seen and who has told them.
Yossarin's BS is exactly how you should feel and see Tiamat I imagine. You are told something, you have what your seen, but when someone tries to tell you the truth, or another thing. You are confused. Thats where belief comes in, that dispite what your told, you still believe what you have always believed.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Xalyth
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 2:08 AM |
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Joined: 06 Jul 2008
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Quite true, it seems that everyone and their dog knows the inner workings of the gods on Amia.
That won't change, as somewhere in all characters subconscious lurks a great demon, Wikipedia
_________________
I sleep with the Libris Mortis under my pillow.
---Carstina Blackweave---
Speaker of Tarkuul
Headmistress of the Magisterium Mortis
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 2:12 AM |
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Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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I'd suggest removing the indepth info on most dieties in the Amia wiki, leave only what people need to know. FR wiki is unreliable and normaly wiki is crap, so that would balance it out.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 2:14 AM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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AxlLeigh wrote: My idea, as a Banite-player type.
Bane would try to make Tiamat his servant. Because he's a tyrant. It's what they do.
Tiamat would say "SCREW YOU!" and revolt.
Now, as a follower of Bane, especially as a cleric, you are /required/ by faith to turn those you can to him, and kill those who don't turn. If you don't, Bane gets mad, and you Fall. By not trying to turn them, you are forsaking Him for a mortal, and that never ends well.
Post spellplague most every god is incredibly weak except a few. Tiamat included. She is already a lesser deity hanging out on the first layer of hell. It is entirely possible post spellplague that Bane could simply kill her if she did not submit.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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Gunz
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 2:54 AM |
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Joined: 01 Jul 2006
Location: The City of Fallen Angels, Ca
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Tiamat may live in Barrens of Doom and Despair, but she's not an exarch of Bane. Rival gods have lived on the same plane many times before. Look at Talona and Loviatar living together on the Barrens of Doom and Despair, despite hating each other. Malar and Auril hate each other and not only do they share a plane in Fury's Heart, but they're both a part of the Deities of Fury group.
Hell, it wouldn't be that odd that she would be forced to be an exarch of Bane either. Look at Silvanus and Malar after 4th edition? They're bitter enemies. Same thing with Tempus and Garagos. Garagos is Tempus' exarch in 4th edition.
Point is, this type of stuff isn't unheard of in the world of evil and neutral gods.
_________________
My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth
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Geld Yaztran
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 13:37 PM |
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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I think it is because humans outnumber dragons and gods are as powerful as their number of worshippers.
Not to mention banites are much more notorious and well known.
Tiamat...not so much the scourge of the world.
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Kraniumbrud
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 16:19 PM |
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Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark
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just because tiamat might be a servant of bane dosnt mean she is a loyal one...i seriusly doubt that the Velsharoon followers bow to Azuth creeds...even though velsharoon is just the servant of Azuth
_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker
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Mr Hyde Jekyyl
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 16:40 PM |
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Joined: 27 Aug 2006
Location: Necropolis
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Quote: just because tiamat might be a servant of bane dosnt mean she is a loyal one...i seriusly doubt that the Velsharoon followers bow to Azuth creeds...even though velsharoon is just the servant of Azuth
Indeed. Infact, if you read Magic of Fearun it states that Velsharoon encourages his followers to slay worshippers of Azuth and Mystra when they get the chance, to vaunt his own power.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 16:59 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Nyeh! What you are all complaining about is moot point anyway since Amia isn't 4.0, and likely never will be thank god. So in 3.0/3.5 Tiamat is the servent of NOBODY.
Edit:Here.
From Faiths and Pantheons, one page, on Tiamat.
http://www.mediafire.com/file/knyfoqqku0m/Tiamat.pdf
Make up your own mind on the matter.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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Dwagin
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 18:26 PM |
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Joined: 08 Aug 2006
Location: The Land of Nod
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But Dragonborn worship the old dragon gods.
It makes no sense. ><
_________________
Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.
-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.
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TormakSaber
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 18:36 PM |
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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere
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It doesn't need to. Dragonborn don't exist pre 4.0. The Spellplague made them. They literally have no history.
_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
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alamut
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:08 PM |
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Joined: 07 Apr 2009
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Selvec Darkon wrote: Nyeh! What you are all complaining about is moot point anyway since Amia isn't 4.0, and likely never will be thank god. So in 3.0/3.5 Tiamat is the servent of NOBODY. Edit:Here. From Faiths and Pantheons, one page, on Tiamat. http://www.mediafire.com/file/knyfoqqku0m/Tiamat.pdfMake up your own mind on the matter. According to your .pdf, Bane and Ilmater are her enemies. I'll RP that Amontep doesn't know that ^^ Since he already asked for Darthion's permission, I think Darthion didn't not know that either 
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:11 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Unless you have found a source specifically stating there is animosity between the churches of two gods, you can safely assume your PC doesn't know about any divine quarrels between gods. And why should he care? No reason whatsoever. Your god probably wouldn't, either.
And I repeat: Tiamat is not a deity of dragons. She is a dragon (thing) who is originally part of the human Untheric pantheon and now, of the Faerûnian pantheon. Her cult is small, and based around the Old Empires (and apparently currently, also the Cult of the Dragon). Dragons are specifically said to fear and respect her (probably also serve), but rarely to worship her as a great goddess. Truth be told, I doubt dragons care much for gods anyway.
There's absolutely nothing strange about gods falling under the rule of a more powerful one; that's part of the divine laws, after all. But be that as it may: not part of our Realms.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:28 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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IronAngel wrote: Unless you have found a source specifically stating there is animosity between the churches of two gods, you can safely assume your PC doesn't know about any divine quarrels between gods. And why should he care? No reason whatsoever. Your god probably wouldn't, either.
And I repeat: Tiamat is not a deity of dragons. She is a dragon (thing) who is originally part of the human Untheric pantheon and now, of the Faerûnian pantheon. Her cult is small, and based around the Old Empires (and apparently currently, also the Cult of the Dragon). Dragons are specifically said to fear and respect her (probably also serve), but rarely to worship her as a great goddess. Truth be told, I doubt dragons care much for gods anyway.
There's absolutely nothing strange about gods falling under the rule of a more powerful one; that's part of the divine laws, after all. But be that as it may: not part of our Realms.
Would it be right however to assume that perhaps a chromatic Dragon Disciple, or Half-Dragon, being beings of lesser power and might, perhaps be swayed like the mortal beings they are, to serve a goddess who seemingly has the fear and respect of those who are their better? Someone who perhaps, as the five headed dragon, embodies the power and might they strife themselves to achieve? Since they are lesser beings to dragons after all.
I think people are confusing Dragonlance Takahiss, which is based to almost an exact replica of FR's Tiamat. Takahiss is Queen of the Evil Dragons. Their god. The big evil in that world. The two probably get confused and information gets muddeled.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Yeah. F&P says reptilians and even chromatic dragons worship her. I'd take it with a grain of salt: they probably didn't read and digest the lore and made the same jump to conclusions than many people do. But either way, I'm sure she is the goddess mostly worshiped by anything dragon-related that worships a god in the first place, or a god that is not part of the dragon pantheon.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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762
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:51 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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I find it impossible to believe that a cleric of Bane with even a lay understanding of theology would not know what Tiamat and her church were about. The Banite church is highly organized, with ritualized instruction passed down from priest to priest. I guarantee you rival faiths are absolutely part of that curriculum.
Churches in the Realms do not exist in a vacuum. Their tenets and beliefs are recorded on holy texts, and with a few rare exceptions these could become public knowledge to anyone dedicated enough to do the research. Certainly a senior priest in Zhentil Keep could find out enough about any faith which was not deliberately secretive, and pass that knowledge along.
Nor do I expect there to exist a complete and definitive listing of the relations between various churches in the realms, and for that to be a precondition for two churches being mutually hostile, especially if they have a potential rivalry in portfolio. Faiths and Pantheons touches on this but it is by no means exhaustive.
Bane is an extremely jealous and territorial god, and one who will challenge any other deity who dare intrude upon his demesne. This is exactly why he and Cyric are such bitter enemies. Since Tiamat's dogma includes sabotaging the faiths of other deities, her clerics are tasked specifically with doing such, and Bane is listed explicitly as one of her foes, it is utterly impossible the Church of Bane would not be aware of this and likely in constant conflict with the Church of Tiamat.
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Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
Last edited by 762 on Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:54 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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762 wrote: I find it impossible to believe that a cleric of Bane with even a lay understanding of theology would not know what Tiamat and her church were about. The Banite church is highly organized, with ritualized instruction passed down from priest to priest. I guarantee you rival faiths are absolutely part of that curriculum.
Churches in the Realms do not exist in a vacuum. Their tenets and beliefs are recorded on holy texts, and with a few rare exceptions these could become public knowledge to anyone dedicated enough to do the research. Certainly a senior priest in Zhentil Keep could find out enough about any faith which was not deliberately secretive.
Nor do I expect there to exist a complete and definitive listing of the relations between various churches in the realms, and for that to be a precondition for two churches being mutually hostile, especially if they have a potential rivalry in portfolio. Faiths and Pantheons touches on this but it is by no means exhaustive.
Bane is an extremely jealous and territorial god, and one who will challenge any other deity who dare intrude upon his demesne. This is exactly why he and Cyric are such bitter enemies. Since Tiamat's dogma includes sabotaging the faiths of other deities, her clerics are tasked specifically with doing such, and Bane is listed explicitly as one of her foes, it is utterly impossible the Church of Bane would not be aware of this and likely in constant conflict with the Church of Tiamat.
You assuming a gods followers goals are that of their gods. Thats rarely the case. For example, the Zhents. Cyric and Bane...yea, okay then. Usually the method behind attaining a goal is what the god is after I imagine. They couldn't give two rats ass about the majority of their followers goals I believe. If this was the case, Darthion would have had his powers stripped by Bane for that little personal rampage of murders through the elven community, and half the gods followers would be stuffed as nobody would go to war, in fear of empowering Tempus.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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762
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 19:58 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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I'm assuming what it says in F&P is actually the case, namely:
Quote: Clerics of Tiamat are primarily occupied by the twin tasks of acquiring an ever-increasing hoard of wealth for the faith and sabotaging the faiths of other deities.
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 20:04 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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If you were to quote the doctrines of Hitler's Germany and the Soviet Union, you would find it completely impossible for the two not to be hostile, let alone to forge an alliance. If we were to use a modern example.
As you said, churches don't exist in a vacuum. They exist in the jungle of dirty mundane politics, economics and warfare. Dogmatic considerations might not often be the only, or even the most important, factor in church behaviour.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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762
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 20:10 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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You have a point in that pragmatical considerations factor in. Yet how long did the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact last? It was convenient for both nations at the time, but Hitler specifically repudiated it because of his dogmatic hatred of ethnic Russians. I assure you two rival churches will be even more driven by dogma.
What external factors exist that might force the churches to work together, as was the case with Hitler and Stalin in 1939?
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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Selvec Darkon
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 20:19 PM |
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Player
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Location: On a Disk, carried by four elephants, which stand on a gigantic turtle.
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Well it comes down to that thing again doesn't it. Your character doesn't know something just because your god does. Their are members of religions who have orthodox views on how things are conducted also, yet they still stick to that god and are granted aid by that god. Different churches likely have different views on how things should work also.
Example for Amia. Mask Temple in Shadowscape. Any other city the idol would be in some deslote hide away, only findable by those who have a mind for such things. His followers would work in shadow and secert, never heard, known or perhaps even seen truely. However, on Amia the Temple of Mask is big, proud and on a hill, it's priests all stand inside the temple, within' view of the public, and do their work in the relative open. Yet both Temples and worshippers would be granted aid by Mask. Worshippers see things differently to each other, have different methods, but generally come together because they all believe in that one god.
Real World example, Christians. Lots of different factions of christians, you have catholics & luthorians to name two (the only two I know off the top of my head), they worship in differing ways, follow slightly different dogma's, and have differing variations on what they do. Yet watch them band together if a band of Athesists comes after them with LED torches burning. xD.
_________________
I keels u with my axe!
"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"
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IronAngel
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 20:26 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Well, I don't really care about how likely it is: that's an IC matter between PCs, after all.
Just saying: your PC should make the decision based on what he's experienced in game and what he understands of the dogma. Not based on what you know about divine relationships.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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762
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Posted: Thu, Jan 21 2010, 20:56 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2006
Location: Florida
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Understood. My point is, a PC cleric belonging to an organized church and trained in a major religious center should be expected to know a fair amount about their church's, and even their deity's, relationships.
_________________
Araxus Balmor
Gurth Balmor (retired)
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