AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Another problem with the forums is the neverending topics.

It's very easy to annoy someone by not having read the first hundred posts of a long topic and then jumping in at the end. It also makes searching the forum less effective, because with a few notable exceptions the topic title has nothing to do with the topic's subject by the time you get to page 3.

People also get testy when the same subject is brought up again and again. They don't like repeating themselves when nothing has changed since the previous discussion, but they practically have to or it's assumed that the premise of the first post is okay.

I myself am not a fan of overlong discussions that don't satisfy the original poster's intent or create new goals that the community should work towards. They're a source of frustration because they waste time that could be spent reading less spam. Or more spam, whichever you prefer.

Our forums don't unfortunately support combining topics.

It's probably the most important feature for moderators to... well, moderate in a sensible way. Locking topics and posting links never works as intended.

Especially not when people think they need to continue making topics to get their 2 cents in.

Well maybe the timeframe for resurrecting a locked topic should be a week, or more. That gives everyone some time to actually think about it and not simply add their two cents in a new post.

It's too bad that the forum search can't be set to bring back topics which have at least 50 replies, or 100 replies, or more. It would make it much easier to find those old and lengthy discussions and link them, at least.

Dev Disco wrote:

You don't see forum bans. That doesn't mean they aren't dished out.

Perhaps, but when the same individuals are continuing to post, well, it's not that hard to figure out.

:lol:

Now, what I had feared would happen has already begun to happen, and that's DMs quoting this exact thread and directing it to forum users when in the very same thread they are demeaning and rude.

We've found on the several other forums I run, maintain and moderate, that unless the admins / mods hold themselves to a higher standard, regardless, and provide the model of behavior the users will model themselves after them anyway. Hence the snippy, sarcastic attitude of the forums overall.

Considering I've done this for almost 20 years, and for companies like Interplay and Activision, I'd say I've some experience in successful forum management and moderation, but take it or leave it.

Ridiculing your possible sources of income for your own jollies isn't exactly a sound business model.

Regards,

Just ask Derek Smart.

(Oh noes!)

I can't help but think some people are forgetting the following two passages, and I don't see why the first one shouldn't apply to the forums as well:

Rules of Amia wrote:

What can you expect of fellow players:

You can expect that players come here to have fun, and not to spoil your fun. Griefing, unwanted OOC comments, vulgarity, OOC profanity are not things that are appreciated by everyone. If you feel offended by anyone take the time to express your feelings to him/her in a decent and constructive manner. If things do not get any better you post a message to the DMs.

Forums ToS wrote:

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, sexually-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws.

I have been detached from Amia lately, so admittedly I haven't noticed the forums jumping bad, TBH. I rarely get offended myself and I (I think) I rarely offend. I know can be crass, fo' sure, but not towards individuals. It might be good to know however, if I do not bring flames to the forums, it might be because I do not burn with the same fiery passion for Amia as some of my fellow DMs. I am burned out.

When it comes to DMs 'least, it's often the case that those that really blow up on the forums are the same ones that do most of the mundane DM work: runs most events, reads the most DC/Special Character requests etc, do rebuilds etc, make rulings in petty PVP quarrels. They are knee-deep in drama more often than not, in some cases, and they are loyal towards Amia in a way that I am just not.

So: it's like having a grumpy mum after's she's cleaned the entire house, cooked you dinner and washed your clothes; and then daddy comes home from a business trip with something from the tax-free shop. How crappy is it that daddy gets all the hugs in this scenario?

Hug your flamy DM mum!

A more apt comparisson would be the mother who is constantly verbally degrading her children in said scenario because she's pissed Dad's off making money and she's stuck here doing all the mundance shit.

Then she gets even more angry and takes it out on poor Bobby, Joe, and Johnny, screaming at them for being such ill-mannered little brats when in reality it was just her own projected angst.

Regards,

If you feel that's the way you are treated... then why do you stay here?

I wouldn't, that's for sure.

Amia is addictive. That's why I keep coming back after feeling that way.
And, aside from that, forums and the game are seperate. in game, you can easily stay in character and forget about OOC troubles. The forum tends to inflame them, in some cases (not all).

But what makes most of us come back is the game, not the forums. The forums is just an add-on filled with additional IC stuff, but also you have to take the sour with the sweet.

The question was specifically about Frey's comment, though.

Apologies.

Dev Disco wrote:

If you feel that's the way you are treated... then why do you stay here.

The forums may be full of shlt, but the gameworld isn't.
All DMs I've met clientside have been very nice.

SephiraAndy wrote:

Amia is addictive. That's why I keep coming back after feeling that way.
And, aside from that, forums and the game are seperate. in game, you can easily stay in character and forget about OOC troubles. The forum tends to inflame them, in some cases (not all).

But what makes most of us come back is the game, not the forums. The forums is just an add-on filled with additional IC stuff, but also you have to take the sour with the sweet.

You were right! Nice to see I'm not alone in thinking this.

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

The forums may be full of shlt, but the gameworld isn't. All DMs I've met clientside have been very nice.

Another person who understands!

It's exactly that - how DM's handle themselves on the forum have pretty much no bearing on my IG enjoyment of the Amia - all it does is hurt the server population overall - hence my PM to you months ago, Disco, pointing out the very things Yoss talked about. That's because I care about Amia, despite the snide comments about the XC Mafia, and my "intent".

I've already been told by more than one of your DM team that they will hold a grudge against me for the one mistake I made over 3 years ago, regardless of what I've done, or tried to do, since then or before (including that I paid for that mistake). Hey, that's their right, for sure... and that's why I don't let the DM's attitudes and negativity affect me as much, because it's expected behavior.

That's also why I laugh my balls off whenever someone talks about the DM team favoring "Frey & Company" because we know the truth, don't we?

But, to answer your question: because IG I have a great time RP'ing with the people on Amia, and have for years. I, regardless of what you or others on the DM team believe, try to not hold grudges and instead look at the positive aspects and move to try to work with the people I've had issues with. That whole "sometimes change requires change" thing. I've also gotten a LOT of stuff accomplished with this character, all IG and all without any favoritism. In fact, it's been the opposite, directly because of what I've done before for Amia - and even so I must echo the sentiments above that IG the DM's do their job without question, and from what I' ve experienced, most are without prejudice.

Another of the reasons I play on Amia is YOU, Disco. Your absolutely brilliant with code and the things you've done since I've been here is amazing. The Job system, the module's design and continuity, your dedication to Amia.

There's a LOT of positives, Disco, as I've said many times in these very forums. This thread, however, addresses negatives, or the Staffs desire to cease acting in a manner that implies you demand respect, simply because your an Amia DM.

Please dont assume just because I address these specific points this means I hate the server or the people.

Regards,

Well, I'll simply drill down deeper: why bothering visiting these forums if they are so bad?

I honestly have to state that some time ago I eagerly participated in many discussions. Sometimes for better and sometimes for worse. Now I look and what is being said, if I have nothing which in my eyes is really interresting to add, I do not post. If the discussion has reached a point it has become rather silly, I do not post. If what I am saying feels unfair, uncalled for or is out of line, I do not post.

Ever since that I feel very relaxed when browsing the forum. When I read the posts of SephiraAndy, Frey and Dramatic_Prince I am really unsure of what the problem is. If you visit the forum for the additional IC-stuff then that is easy and you can just ignore the peanut gallery and enjoy yourself. If you however lower yourselves in the trenches of the down and dirty discussions, you might get dirty.

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, I'll simply drill down deeper: why bothering visiting these forums if they are so bad?

Amia forums is my No. 1 source of internet drama.
It's amusing the watch the DMs and players try to trample one another by making snide remarks and going at each other's throats.
It's educational as well to learn new baiting and trolling techniques. The people here can be very innovative.
*Hands Disco more popcorn*

Phearnun wrote:

I am really unsure of what the problem is.

That said, there really isn't any problem. It only exists in the minds of people who think we should all hold hands for shlts and giggles.

Amia's like a censored daytime soap when it comes to internet drama and conflict. I'd recommend checking out forums dedicated to evolution biology, for example, for the real drama (all the creationists go to those forums). Or climate change or vegetarianism or anything that draws an opposing audience hellbent on sabotaging the originally intended discussion. Newspaper online commentary sections are also very good for the daily drama fix, no strings attached and no registration required, so the feeling of superiority is guaranteed.

I mean... the arguments we got are peanuts. We're all here for a shared reason, to play the game. This is as softcore as it gets.

Reading the forums is educative, even reading the build thread makes me go "ooh" and "aah" considering I've pregressed from taking EDK without ESF: Conj and setting all my beginning abilities to a similar level. And it made no IC sense at all, I was just oblivious like that.

It's always disappointing to see people express the "bad behavior" that has been mentioned in threads passed and this one. It's part of the reason I never really felt encouraged to express my opinion or actively participate in a debate.

Contrary to what Dramatic_Prince is suggesting, I don't see the alternative as being a "holding hands for blah blah* situation, but a proof of maturity and understanding with the ultimate knowledge that the opposite is counterproductive to your own cause.

That said, good initiative, even better if someone reacts to it positively and these forums are quite admirable in the long run.

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, I'll simply drill down deeper: why bothering visiting these forums if they are so bad?

As bad as bad gets, you can't have it without the good. There are productive posts, there are funny posts, and there are riveting posts. And you know, one thing you have seen with some discussions lately is that people's opinions aren't particularly entrenched. They can change their mind on an issue if the issue is explored and explained more clearly.

So yes, you can have a good community that gets a little unruly at times. But that's something you can deal with. You can't really do anything with a community that never comes to the forums to say what they've got to say.

As with all forums on the internet, they can often get silly. It's good to take a breath and let some things not get to you if poop starts to fly.

Sarcasm isn't communicated well over the internet, and getting angry over anything posted is often just a wasted effort. This is a forum dependant upon a fictional game. An addictive game, but a game none the less. It's supposed to be fun, so taking things too seriously just shows you that you (you as in anyone) probably can't see the forest from the trees.

I have noticed that the ones most often on the form (or any form) are usually the ones that take things too seriously.

Life is too short to get mad over little things that really don't matter in the overall pitcure. The whole point of Amia is entertainment.

Some would say communication is key to healthy relationship/community, as is the ability to agree to disagree and not hold grudges over it.

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, I'll simply drill down deeper: why bothering visiting these forums if they are so bad?

You still didn't get it. The bad is like 30 %, while the good is like 70%. I think you take things way to serious, or perhaps more serious than they really are.

Dwagin wrote:

Some would say communication is key to healthy relationship/community, as is the ability to agree to disagree and not hold grudges over it.

Personally, I despise it when I see people treat other people like shit or hold grudges, especially when it appears people are genuinelly apologetic and trying to make amends. To me, especially considering how I view life and death, each second is precious and once lost, never able to be recovered - and I'd prefer honestly to be happy 99% of the time I've been given, laughing and loving with my friends and people I care about.

Am I perfect? Of course not, but I try very hard to practice what I preach and make allowances for people making mistakes on the belief that - innately, people are good and strive to do good things

It's different though when I get online and see individuals who are being degrading and just honestly shitty to people. I will hold them accountable. They certainly will hold ME accountable, so why is the same not applicable? When the rules are not followed by the ones supposing to enforce them.. no one will respect you when you appear to respect no one.

For example - and here's just one that happened yesterday -

An Admin deleting my request thread in the Request forums without even so much as a PM as to why it was deleted is wrong. I didn't delete it, yet it's not there. I've lived long enough to know what is right, and what is wrong in a general sense, and that's just wrong.

It's not based upon my personal beliefs, it's based upon societies beliefs and accepted business practices. There's some things that just are, regardless of how you'd like them to be, and one of those is treating people civily, especially when your livelyhood requires it.

Even so, it's not my faith in human kind, or the belief in the words you and the other Admins write - that you genuinelly do want to do better, act better, earn respect, not demand it simply because your a DM or Admin that keep me coming back to the forums.

Its:

1.) The amazing stories, breathing even more life into the Characters I have sometimes the pleasure of interacting with IG.

2.) The information - so much information in regards to Lore, the Rules, etc.

3.) The hilarity and often insightful discussions in off topic.

4.) How else are you suppose to get DC items?

that are the primary reasons - that you genuinelly do want to do better, act better, earn respect, not demand it simply because your a DM or Admin that keep me coming back to the forums falls quite low simply because this method of treatment for those specific individuals who practice it constantly has become expected behavior.

The thing I find interesting from a sociological standpoint is that there is obviously an issue in regards to how some DM's present themselves on the Forums, yet rather than simply recognize the issue and privately ask those individuals to cease being shitty and denigrating, the team believes it more efficient, desired, or (insert reason here) to defend those individuals and justify their negativity - thus appearing to support such behavior and enable it.

Yet if a forum member comes anywhere close to spouting the type of personally insulting public responses we've seen even recently, they are immediately threatened with a ban or referred to the new "Forum Guidelines".

Hence, my previous advice in regards to setting a proper example for the forum members to follow, and thus emulate.

Regards,

Frey wrote:

An Admin deleting my request thread in the Request forums without even so much as a PM as to why it was deleted is wrong. I didn't delete it, yet it's not there. I've lived long enough to know what is right, and what is wrong in a general sense, and that's just wrong.

It wasn't deleted, it was just moved for discussion.

Gers wrote:

Frey wrote:

An Admin deleting my request thread in the Request forums without even so much as a PM as to why it was deleted is wrong. I didn't delete it, yet it's not there. I've lived long enough to know what is right, and what is wrong in a general sense, and that's just wrong.

It wasn't deleted, it was just moved for discussion.

It happens when a text is moved without selecting the option to "Keep Shadow Post on the Original Forum" or something like that.

In doubt, PM someone.

Gers wrote:

Frey wrote:

An Admin deleting my request thread in the Request forums without even so much as a PM as to why it was deleted is wrong. I didn't delete it, yet it's not there. I've lived long enough to know what is right, and what is wrong in a general sense, and that's just wrong.

It wasn't deleted, it was just moved for discussion.

Correct. I don't leave shadow topics (that little blurb that says "Moved: *topic title here*" because it clutters up teh forum and I like it running squeaky clean. I would have appreciated a PM before, urrr, being assaulted in the public forums again, I mean, if we are on the topic of forum behavior, I suppose?

I don't think he knew it got moved. I can understand his reaction even tho nobody is technically at fault. Don't blame him, I'm sure he doesn't hold a grudge about it since he knows now that it got moved. He still could have been sent a PM saying it was moved just to ensure he would be informed.

I thought it was a common practise to ask if the TS would like the topic moved for discussion. No wonder he misunderstood.

Good point: it's obvious to us and people who've followed the Requests forums for a while, but I suppose it's not readily apparent if you simply can't read the info.

We ask more if we want to know more. There's no procedure. If we think it's all in there (or do to any random factors, really) we just move it straight away. We rarely bother/remember to PM the poster about it, because DC requests and other stuff takes a lot of time as is; literally hours.

Should make a note about it on the forum sticky or something, I guess.

Quite sure it is mentioned, and quite explicitely.

[[bumped for purpose]]

Yurell wrote:

belgianbonzai wrote:

Yurell wrote:

I am happy to see the initiative, but may I ask what sort of penalties are being looked at, for both players and DMs?

short/longer/looong/perma-bans of course, not much else you can do.

Yes, but there are some people I doubt will see this punishment despite their behaviour.

Yurell wrote:

belgianbonzai wrote:

well if they keep circumventing their ban you can always take it up with their ISP.

Not what I'm talking about. Let me use Disco for a second - I choose to use him as an example since he is never rude or impolite (in my experience), so shouldn't take offence or take it personally. Would he seriously be banned? What about other DMs that hold equally important, irreplaceable positions?

I don't think this got answered (and yes I know it's a sensitive topic).

DMs (and even Disco) have copped Forum Bans before if their behaviour gets out of hand.

Some people get missed (because we can't, possibly, read every single post.), admittedly, but we do our best.

Thank you, that answers my question ^^

I'm disquieted by the actions of people who are interjecting personal attacks, amongst other strife, in threads these days. Airing your dirty laundry in public isn't something anyone wants to see. The Forums are not your personal Jerry Springer, stop behaving as if it is.

Punishing those who are behaving because of those who aren't only fuels more interpersonal ire in the community. By locking relevant threads when we posters who have done nothing wrong, and have not the power to rectify the behavior in those causing the locks leads only to strife and frustration.

The community as a whole is what we make of it. I would appreciate it if people would try to keep it tidy, civil, and take topic irrelevant interpersonal communication to PM's and leave the rest of us out of it.

Last edited by Azrael on Sun, Mar 07 2010, 8:56 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

I'm disquieted by the actions of people who are interjecting personal attacks, amongst other strife, in threads these days. Airing your dirty laundry in public isn't something anyone wants to see. The Forums are not your personal Jerry Springer, stop behaving as if it is.

Punishing those who are behaving because of those who aren't only fuels more interpersonal ire in the community. By locking relevant threads when we posters who have done nothing wrong, and have not the power to rectify the behavior in those causing the locks leads only to strife and frustration.

The community as a whole is what we make of it. I would appreciate it if people would try to keep it tidy, civil, and take topic irrelevant interpersonal communication to PM's and leave the rest of us out of it.

I'm posting the following as a sort of explained example, I wouldn't bother if it was some sort of attack-orientated thing. So, onwards then.

Ok well, here's what was between the lines:

I'm sure you don't mean to but- by the tone of the post it's actually a form of escalating conflict. The first paragraph is an insult towards a group of people, and your very likely preaching to the choir here- which leaves -venting frustration at the people who largely want to sympathize with you and to the cause. Considering our audiences is key.

Yet, the same point(s) has/have been stated earlier without such, rough, word choice. The second paragraph reads as, there were threads that you liked that got locked as a result of other people getting carried away. Ok..but you've 'played the victim' here leading into the last paragraph...

Which is dishing out angry orders to the first group mentioned. The one's who at times get out of hand. I'd say the post, is already, out of hand.

Point being, word choice plays a huge factor as well, there's many ways to say things.

A simple "I agree that this issue is a problem, I think it's unfair when interesting topics get locked as a result, and I appreciate the movement to stop such actions." Will suffice for example. Things like soap boxes, insults, metaphors of unpleasant pictures, victim playing, ordering around of others, draws the flames like bees to honey.

The way it was structured is counter to the points being made. Which, is why I'm bothering to post. It's a learning exercise I suppose. I hope the above isn't read as any sort of attack, I've wrote it in the interest of a 'teaching stance' nothing more.

Best wishes,
-Azrael

p.s.

Dwagin wrote:

Some would say communication is key to healthy relationship/community, as is the ability to agree to disagree and not hold grudges over it.

I love this quote.

p.s.#2
..and no I'm not perfect either, in the past I've made a few borderline posts as well.

Disquiet: to take away the peace or tranquility of; disturb.

Disgust: marked aversion aroused by something highly distasteful

Please do not edit my words to be different than what I typed when you quote me. Disquieted and disgusted are two completely different words and each sets a completely different tone.

In the very literal sense of the word the community is a victim of this negative behavior, and by extension we all are; including those participating in the negative behavior. The locking of constructive threads before they have run their course damages the community as a whole due to cessation of the creative process and loss of potential positive ideas.

(off topic)

On Disgusted vs Disquieted:
Apologies on that word. I've never seen it used before, and somewhat speed read, spell checking stuff on habit. I suppose it's a lesson to never fix a misspelled word within a quote. If I replace the word with 'disturbed' it does give a lighter feel. However, the previous points still hold some weight past the first line. I've edited my post to correct the quoted word.

-

If I put it like this, the word choice really stands out clearly.

interjecting personal attacks
amongst other strife
Airing your dirty laundry
not your personal Jerry Springer, stop behaving as if it is.
Punishing
fuels more interpersonal ire in the community
to strife and frustration
leave the rest of us out of it.

The tone, is still affected in a negative manner by the combined above words and phrases.

On the point of declaring victim status, it in itself isn't the main issue, it's what that called out sympathy is used for following the claim. Which in this case was, to clear the stage for what comes across as an order given the overall tone.

Guys, peace, but the original meaning of this thread should not be lost at any cost. Going off topic is a nono. I understand the frustration, but I'm gonna ask for the discussion on linguistic semantics to end.

This was posted as a serious attempt by the team and worded very well by Yoss to remind everyone that there's no reason to flame, bait, namecall or treat anyone on the forum as a lesser being.

I do not under any circumstances want the original post in this thread to be buried by off topic posts. if it needs bumping on occasion as a reminder, that's fine. But lets leave it at that. I'm quite protective of the intended results of these new rules, being a big squish and all.

Thanks for understanding,
Lally.

I agree that it's a shame that topics get locked before they've accomplished anything, but there is no denying the fact that they quickly become a writhing mass of text.

Powerquoting is one of the worst aspects of this. If a discussion is to hold the attention of anyone, everyone will have to learn to wait their turn and not take it upon themselves to reply to everything at once, because when you reply to a lot of points, that in turn means even more stuff to reply to, before you know it you have Ra's spaceship coming in for a landing because of the pyramids.

I know that a lot of you are used to just mashing reply and writing what's on your mind right now. Forums are a very immediate format and make it pretty easy to do just that, but immediacy can also mean being blunt, abrasive and unhelpful if yer not careful.

Try and restrain your enthusiasm. Let someone else be heard. You can't have a constructive discussion if nobody can get a word in edgeways.

Selmak wrote:

I agree that it's a shame that topics get locked before they've accomplished anything, but there is no denying the fact that they quickly become a writhing mass of text.

Powerquoting is one of the worst aspects of this. If a discussion is to hold the attention of anyone, everyone will have to learn to wait their turn and not take it upon themselves to reply to everything at once, because when you reply to a lot of points, that in turn means even more stuff to reply to, before you know it you have Ra's spaceship coming in for a landing because of the pyramids.

I know that a lot of you are used to just mashing reply and writing what's on your mind right now. Forums are a very immediate format and make it pretty easy to do just that, but immediacy can also mean being blunt, abrasive and unhelpful if yer not careful.

Try and restrain your enthusiasm. Let someone else be heard. You can't have a constructive discussion if nobody can get a word in edgeways.

Counterwise, everyone has the right to be heard, and should be allowed to comment just as everyone else, rather than missing out because things were being posted when they were asleep. I'm a strong advocate of being able to give your opinion (so long as it's not in the areas the DMs said not to, of course, such as the Requests section).

Edit: And if we're not to post in here any more except 'bump' then I shan't

I'd appreciate it staying on topic, yup. lets keep it to bumps and relevant situations.

Locking is often the simple way to deal with a topic. Removing posts means you usually remove something crucial along with the crap, and thanks to the forum format we got there's no way to put it back and keep the discussion coherent. And removing posts doesn't cool the hotheads down.

Lazy modding, I know. Temp locks work, though.

Could always do topic splits.

There have been numerous times where I've felt I had something important to contribute to a discussion only to scroll down the page and in the span of 15 posts see things go from civil to flame to lock. Knowing the general outlook on starting new threads about just locked subjects, my wonderful wit and wisdom gets doomed to stay locked in my pretty little head forever!

Lalelilolu wrote:

-

Word choice or the way people say things has relevance to 'toning down' the hostilities of the forums.

It was part of the original topic, and the points have indeed already been made. We can indeed move onwards.

Thanks,
Azrael

Nekhy wrote:

Locking is often the simple way to deal with a topic. Removing posts means you usually remove something crucial along with the crap, and thanks to the forum format we got there's no way to put it back and keep the discussion coherent. And removing posts doesn't cool the hotheads down.

Lazy modding, I know. Temp locks work, though.

Remove 'em anyway, if people had a good point, they lost it by being assholes. If it doesn't cool them down, smack a forum ban on them. Feathers need ruffling!

These rules still apply.

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