Not pointing at anyone in particular, but the few times you do see DM "X" online, it's PC side. Like Grymia said, you signed up for responsibility and players expect it of you. If you have time to idle around with your PCs, you certainly have time to DM.

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

And how would removing them improve the situation? More to the point, why should they be forced into exclusively DMing? How many of them would sign up to DM if they couldn't play their chars anymore?

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Why? Because we want them to do their job.
Tormak, Disco. These people are examplary DMs, to name a few.
And yes I'd like to know how many people would sign up to exclusively DM.
I know there are people out there who would.

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

Tormak still plays Torin. I want to see what his response would be if he had the choice between Torin and continuing DMing. Disco does far more work behind the scenes than in game AFAIK (forgive me if I'm wrong), and so can't be classed as far as 'DM presence' goes. And the number of people that would be happy to be exclusively DM ... how many of them would pass the stringent requirements to be a DM here anyway?

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

DM's have a real life just like the players do.

In some weeks I am able to play every day for some hours, in other weeks I am so plastered with work that I hardly manage to log in at all. And on some other days again, my mind so so overloaded with RL-stuff that I am not able to do some "big stuff" and simply log in to do some small talk IC with people.

Why would it be any different for the DM's?

Sure they have a responsibility and I dare say they fulfill that too. I am very sure that if any of us would have a great plot in mind and ask the staff for a DM who'd like to help out, you'd certainly always find a DM willing to do that.

And for your daily normal RP, I am sure everyone is capable or at least should be, to just have some fun with other players, without DM supervision necessary.

If many DM are a bit busy now, I am sure in a week or two things will look different again.

I am also sure that if it were the case, that too many DM are too busy right now and also will be for a longer period of time, the current staff would make sure to search for some more additional and capable members for the DM staff.

_________________

He does and he also does forum admin and also has DM client presence.
He IS DOING his job.


He works non-stop to improve the module for us.
He IS DOING his job.

DM "X" who is not seen in ages or logs only to play his/her pc is NOT DOING his/her job. See the difference?

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

The DM have far more jobs than simply to log DM side. Many and probably even most of their jobs aren't even seen/noticed by the players.

_________________

Dramatic: your analysis would be cool and dandy, if DMing was actually job. See my previous post: no salary, no limit to number of DMs, ergo, no negative consequence of DM inactivity as opposed to DM removal.

We're not accountable to players. We're not responsible for your enjoyment. We're not here because you want. Certainly, our purpose is to serve the playerbase and server, but player expectations (insofar as they're not justified on their own, regardless of whether they come from players or not) have no impact on our responsibilities.

A DM was chosen because the DM team wanted to have said person on the team. There's nothing mysterious to it: no secret oaths to take, no sudden need to earn their place in the eyes of the playerbase. They will be removed when they resign or the other DMs feel they're no longer desired on the team.


I don't need people to make excuses for me, though. I'd have plenty of time to DM, if I had the motivation. But I don't: when I log DM-side, nothing I see in game is interesting enough to inspire me to DM. Maybe I'm boring, maybe you're boring, maybe our interests just don't meet. Either way, I feel like I have nothing to offer you. So I do my forum work, I write stuff when requested, I advice and help players. In a way, I would be relieved if I didn't have to DM anymore, and could just do the dirty work to help the server without the responsibility and power to be creative in the gameworld. That's my primary interest: to help the server and people I've given so much of my life to, because I can.

_________________

a fucking men. seriously people. get a grip and realize the world is not handed to you on a silver platter. Not everyone has the luxory of such. If you can not understand a man or woman has to work for a living and doesnt always have time for a game, then i feel bad for you.

Get a grip people and quit whining

_________________


siggy by qualiz<3

Dramatc, you still haven't said what the benefit of removing DM status is. Removing it means that they can't be called upon at all, whereas at least while inactive they can still be asked to help.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

You remove, you replace. You get fresh blood and hopefully someone who is dedicated to DMing. It's not a benefit, but more of an action taken to get things back in shape.

As it stands, DMs still keep being DMs whether or not they do their job.
It's complacency. Would we get more DM activity if there was a minimum hours/month or player/ client ratio in place? I think so because I'm sure there are at least some people who are eager to keep their DM status.

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

*shrugs* If you force someone to do something, he/she whill do it half-heartedly.

I rather have a DM run a plot he/she enjoys aswell and therefor run it with some kind of "passion" and that only once a month, then a forced plot, the DM doesn't really enjoy and hence will probably be annoyed and such soon, every day.

_________________

Except there is no limit to DMs. If you are going to add DM X you can add them regardless of whether you keep the old ones or remove them. And if you force someone to have a minimum ratio, I'd expect them to do it half-heartedly, or just sit afk in the DM slot. Carrot works better than the rod - DMs are encouraged to DM by their DC salary, but it is still optional for them.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Good, then Tormak will have good reason to sack these people.
Sometimes the toilet needs to be flushed.

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

Really, this is a game that is meant to be fun for everyone. The players and also the DM's.

As soon as there is -too much- force, noone will enjoy it anymore.

_________________

And therefore the number of DMs goes down and the situation gets worse. What exactly has been improved? Again, 'clearing the way for fresh blood' doesn't count since flesh blood can be added regardless of whether the old is removed, and if the old is inactive they are not in the way of the new.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Is there even any force? I dunno maybe the DMs can tell us what guidelines you all run by.


Those are the kinds of bums that need to be culled. If there are corrupt people like that on the team, how is removing them not an improvement?

Existing DMs get more active or add more new blood to the pool.
If everything was fine and dandy, we wouldn't see topics like this every month.


(Edited for clarity because people can't add 1 and 1)

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

So the inactive DMs are bums now? While I don't think tat everything is 'fine and dandy', decreasing the number of DMs is not going to make things better, nor will forcing them to DM when they don't want to. And they are not going to make their selection criteria any less stringent to make up for all the ones you wish to have wantonly removed.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

You, sir, Fail with a capital F.

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

While there may be merit in your sentiments, Dramatic, your argumentation just isn't logical. I suggest you go back post by post and see what's in reply to what.

I also find it somewhat silly that you argue with eachother, while neither of you actually have any authority or knowledge in the matter. I posted twice, but you chose to respond to similar posts made by players rather than me.

_________________

Just FYI, sitting AFK in the DM slot is grounds for immediate dismissal. We don't allow farming of DCs that way. Just like we don't allow eachother to twink our characters, give them free levels, or otherwise abuse the position. It might *look* at times like a DM is AFKing, but if we don't respond to you, it generally means we're already busy with something requiring our full attention.

hey what incentives do DM's have to DM, besides the happy faces of the players when they see a reply to their cry for help?

We get DCs for our time. That's not much of an incentive, though. I love to DM when there are enthusiastic players with interesting plans, and maybe even fun colleagues to work with. DMing is its own reward for me, and that also means I don't do it when it isn't rewarding. Which, lately, is most of the time.

_________________

This is a perfect example of why I'm now inactive on Amia: The community is in a constant civil war with itself.

DMs DM when they want, they are not -required- to DM. So quit fucking whining if you don't see them on that often, because at the end of the day if you were to be busy in real life, would you like someone to play your character against your will while you're away?

No.

And that's no different for "replacing" inactive DMs.

_________________

That, we recognise. Most DMs usually just drop a quick reply that they are busy.


I read your viewpoint, yes. You are entitled to it, as we all are.
Do I agree entirely? No.


Maybe we have a different interpretation of this statement.

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

It seems like its our job then to give the DM's a reason to be on.

I promised myself I wouldn't post, but as a currently inactive DM, I'm going to shamelessly put myself in the boiling pot.


First off, DMs don't get paid. DCs mean zilch, guys, if you want us up there more. More time DMside = Less time PCside to enjoy our DCs. Counterintuitive. We're here because we want to be, and sometimes that interest does wane, or sometimes RL issues kick up and we decide we really don't want to deal with the playerbase that is known for, well..

This page of the thread.


To use myself as an example. Death in the family, Unemployment, and a current Financial Crisis in the household as a result. Suffice to say, I've been taking a bit of a break from dealing with the constant verbage of the playerbase. I still want to DM, but right now - I'm not interested or motivated to hop DMside and constantly cop the flak thrown by the Playerbase for not doing my job to their individual expectations. Prince is showing a good example of this in this thread, afterall - if a single player does not like what we do, they will, indeed, go on a constant debate which does sap morale (and time) in regards to wanting to get DMside.

We get up here because we want to help the players. Being told we suck for not doing so perfectly to their expectations is basically tossing it in our faces.

When there aren't enough DMs, players complain. When there -are- enough DMs, but they're not online enough, players complain. When there -are- enough DMs, and they're online enough, players complain that they themselves aren't recieving individual attention every thirty seconds.

In fact, the original two complaints come from the same field. It's rarely that DMs aren't around that causes people to grumble, but that it's because they weren't available 24/7 to handle the whims of the poster.


Now, the standards. Currently, our standards are pretty low, it's just a simple fact that the majority of the playerbase doesn't match up, and those that do - aren't interested.
The shortform that most DMs look for is;
Ability to keep the IC, In Character, 101% of the time.
Ability to keep the OOC, Out of Character, 101% of the time.
Not a cheater.
Behaves Well.
Somewhat Constructive Behaviour.
Gets along passably with Current DMs. (This is volunteer work. can't expect us to hire someone who constantly pisses us off. Counterintuitive)

... that's pretty much it. It looks like 'alot', but if you actually read it, it's stuff the playerbase should be doing already. Sadly the majority of the server is guilty of either being twinkers or mulers (Sad fact, but true), or alternatively, the sort that can't take an IC loss OOC, metagames badly, goes into tantrums or fits when the IC doesn't go their way, and ultimately 'performs poorly' at the RP side of things. Which causes alot of OOC drama, and we don't really want it DMside.

If you'd really like, I guess we could lower those standards. I mean, sure, let in those who may mule themselves and their mates free Epic Loot via the DM Client. That was sarcasm, btw.

Those standards aren't likely to lower, because honestly - better DMs that aren't around every second of every day for your whims, than DMs that are around every second of every day for their own whims.


DMs will be around more, when players make the effort less like shovelling shit, then being forced to wallow in it. This means;

Cheat less.
Metagame less.
Flame DMs less (yes, we watch your party chat out of requirement. no, it's not pretty)
Keep IC where it belongs - in character.
Keep OOC where it belongs - out of character.

All things that ideally shouldn't be happening, but happen alot. Alot. Alot.

_________________
Mostly Retired

As was said a few times above, there is no number of DMs we aim to have at any given time or any limits to the number of DMs we can have at once. So "replacing" doesn't work. It's quite simple: we find a player that we think would be a suitable addition to the team, we ask them if they're up for it, and they either join the team or decline the invitation.

But adding more DMs doesn't necessarily mean there'll be a DM online at all times, because people indeed don't do this for real work and everyone's DMing is dependent on what goes on in their offline lives, too. It just means there's more available people in the pool to DM when they got the time.

We have a minimum ratio to meet, though. That means even if you see DMs playerside a lot, they're pulling their hours to meet the ratio requirements. You have to pull some DM hours in order to get "permission" to play, so to speak.

And at press time we have 3 DMs clientside.

No one expects every DM to listen to what we want but if even one or two DMs read this topic and responds by pledging more DM time, then the topic has served it's purpose.

_________________

Prescia the Pristine Voice

Or it could simply be that they happen to have the time and didn't happen to have the time for whatever RL reasons at some other times. If someone is busy/occupied with something else, their business IRL doesn't disappear because a topic is made. I wish it would, though.

Yeah, Dramatic knows I took a little break from the Client to have some fun whacking phat loot pinatas because we took one down together the other day while I was only operating at about 40% enchantments.

Whacking phat loot pinatas... Thanks for the laughs.

I miss Signe

I'm not going to improve my DM hours because a player tells me to, or because there's a thread complaining about lack of attention.

I improve my DM hours when it is fun and motivating, and feel happy to help answer questions and solve problems. I DM to put in fun little events every now and then, and try to enrich the players' environment, even a little bit.

I do not do this because it is a job. This is not work to me. This is a game, meant to have fun. When players have sapped the fun out of my DMing experience, I choose to go playerside for a while to recharge my fun.

A lot of the work DMs do, players never see, and shouldn't have to see. With up to 65 players on one server, a DM could be busy working his/her ass off for a small group of players, and the rest of the server would be oblivious. In the client, there's RP we're looking at, scanning party chat, answering questions, looking up requests, chasing down a Cordor asshat, informing new people of the rules, trying to battle player spam, moderating OOC arguments, settling PvP disputes, asking for screenshots, delivering widgets, and trying not to kill ourselves. Sometimes, sometimes, your question or request gets missed in the massive jumble of words we have to sift through. Sorry. Repeat it.

That doesn't include the forum work DMs have to do. In addition to the normal Player forums, we've got DM, Designer, and all those Faction forums to read through and reply to. Threads may get skipped over, posts may be missed, but that's one hell of a lot of words to get through. Our eyeballs and brainpans can only process so much at once.

So ease up, eh? Threads like this are fairly demotivating, and doesn't really make me look forward to logging onto the client. And honestly, if you're going to make me choose between fulltime DMing, or just being a player, I won't even hesitate to give up my DM job. And I really like DMing. Most of the time.

_________________
I have a large seashell collection which I keep scattered on the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.

Ok to be fair all she wanted to know is where or if there are any DM's on for the aussies

QFE and to add:

Again, it is a responsibility.. it's not one lightly taken. But, those that do take it, I'm glad for it and applaud. I do get frustrated at times and it may not seem like i care about the DM's end of things but I do.

The DM's do as much as they can and as much as they are heartened to by us players.

Wow does THIS thread bum me out.

God.

_________________
We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

*hugs Lally*

I know Yoss has made a number of pithy comments about childish behaviour and selfishness on the part of the playerbase. I'm honestly shocked at some of the comments that have been made here.

Perhaps I'm naive, but I generally trust the DM team to police themselves. If someone's abusing their position, I expect that they will eventually be sacked. It's happened before and I'm sure it will happen again. If someone is inactive I expect that there is a reason for it and eventually they will return or, if unable or unwilling to do so, be asked to resign. An inactive DM is not hurting the server.

On the other hand, an unmotivated DM is not helping the server. Let's let the DMs do what they do and dont crap all over them.

... too much.

_________________

~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

It's easy for people to complain about how things they haven't experienced get handled. I suggest everyone who does know how it works to take this for what it is - lack of knowledge.

_________________
Get Ready for It
Forum lurker.

Yes. I consider myself thoroughly dunked and tomato'd at this point.

On a side note: I do not know where this rumor began that I can fire people (or hire them, for that matter). I cannot. The removal of a DM is a group decision, as is the hiring. In extreme cases if full authority is needed that responsibility rests on Nekh's shoulders.

However that doesn't mean if a DM is doing something wrong, I will not immediately approach them and tell them they are screwing up.

~

The topic raised the question of if I would still DM if I couldn't play Torin anymore. I would still do it, though I would be less thrilled. My DM philosophy is that it is critical to maintain a finger in the playerbase as a character. You need to keep the experience "down to earth". Playing as a player helps you remember that these are people, and not bits of data and words on the internet. If you never play your PCs anymore, you are in danger of becoming too "administratively oriented". You need to maintain a "face in the crowd", so to speak. Keep up on stories. Immerse yourself. If you experience what the players do, as a player, then you are better equipped to give them a better time as a DM. And to keep up with the times, you must keep playing, and DMing.

This is no excuse to neglect your DM duties, however.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Also, this topic is done.

My reason cited?

Stop depressing my DM team. You want a better experience, stop making them want to not touch you with a 10 foot pole.

Locked.

_________________
Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham