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Personal experience and anecdotal evidence doesn't stand up to statistical data, though. If you claim the dice are flawed and we can't calculate probability with the intended numbers, you'll have to show this is so. I'd rather not make balance decisions on hear-say no one can prove.

Either way: if they range is dropped, make 'em both 1d8.

Mr Mago wrote:

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

How about changing Rapier to d8? If you dont want it to be same as Shortsword.

And scimitar?

Hrm. Well, Scimitar with nerfed Crit Range is just a shit Longsword. Changing that to d8 too, will make it the same as Longsword. How about changing Scimitar to d6/19-20/Dual Damage type, like Halberd? Or is that too Overpowered?

Mr Mago wrote:

There's one thing you're really good at, Yurell, and that is to ask questions when questions don't need to be asked.

But I'll give you an answer, either way:

- Go in game, Yurell, make a WM using a rapier, and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

All I was asking was for some quantification, rather than the vague qualification you were giving.

I don't give a fuck about statistical data in this case.

My 8 years of playing this game is enough to see the pattern and have the experience to make the conclusions.

As I said... make a WM using a rapier, and you'll see it yourself.

There's one thing I've yet to figure out in NWN, and that's how Bioware implemented the dice rolls, and why they work the way they do.

But there's certainly something wrong with them, and any omfgd1sturbing powergamer can tell you that much.

The random generator is flawed, but not in the spread of numbers. It tends to repeat itself when you use it a lot of times within milliseconds.

Yes, I did the tests and if you do 10000 rolls on a d10 you get about 1000 of each possible number. The difefrence isn't even close to being significant.

High AB = More frequent crits.

As in, it exceeds the actual percentage which should be your max crits per round.

I get that on Darth as well.

I wouldn't expect someone who barely plays the action part of this game to really make the observation though, Disco.

Mr Mago wrote:

I don't give a (censored) about statistical data in this case.

Because the statistical data disagrees with you?

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

I don't give a (censored) about statistical data in this case.

Because the statistical data disagrees with you?

Read the rest of the post.

You've decided to try and start flame fests in all topics you enter, Yurell?

Mr Mago wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

I don't give a (censored) about statistical data in this case.

Because the statistical data disagrees with you?

Read the rest of the post.

You've decided to try and start flame fests in all topics you enter, Yurell?

Where is the flaming? You said you don't care about the statistical data ... if you are right, then the statistics will support you, if you're wrong then they won't.

Are you mentally challenged or something, Yurell?

Again. Read what I actually write.

Mr Mago wrote:

Are you mentally challenged or something, Yurell?

Again. Read what I actually write.

And you accuse me of trying to start a flamewar? Your argument was that the bioware dice don't work properly. My question is don't work properly ... how?

You're both fuelling each other's fire. May I suggest Mago and Yurell ignore any personal remarks and responses, and keep on topic, as I know you both are trying to, but are being blocked by perhaps misunderstandings on both sides?

Mr Mago wrote:

There's one thing I've yet to figure out in NWN, and that's how Bioware implemented the dice rolls, and why they work the way they do.

But there's certainly something wrong with them, and any omfgd1sturbing powergamer can tell you that much.

Quote:

Again. Read what I actually write.

Quote:

There's one thing you're really good at, Yurell, and that is to ask questions when questions don't need to be asked.

Or more bluntly: drop baiting and getting baited, or you'll both get a forum ban for distracting the discussion.

IronAngel wrote:

Or more bluntly: drop baiting and getting baited, or you'll both get a forum ban for distracting the discussion.

Can I ask what I'm doing wrong? I'm just repeating the question.

You answered yourself: you're repeating the question, you're not contributing to the discussion. Everyone can see the question, and determine whether it was answered or not. (It was, by Disco.) Whether or not you didn't get a satisfactory answer, getting stuck on a minor point doesn't serve the purpose of reaching a conclusion. It only distracts everyone from the conversation, and has degraded to flaming.

You are problem-oriented. Try to be more solution-oriented if you want to contribute to this decision.

So, what other options than making Rapier and Scimitar 1d8, 19-20/x2, or keeping them as is?

IronAngel wrote:

So, what other options than making Rapier and Scimitar 1d8, 19-20/x2, or keeping them as is?

Rapier: 1d8/19-20 (To differentiate from Shortsword.)
Scimitar: 1d6/19-20 Piercing/Slashing(To make it more than a shit longsword.)

What happens to kukri? Changing it to a dagger would suck, since it need exotic prof.

Last edited by Mr Mago on Sat, Jan 16 2010, 13:27 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Easy calculations:

== Calc 1 ==

Str-based cleric using a wonderforged rapier (no divine might).

d6 + 14 + d12 + d10 + 5 + 5 + 1 + 2 = d6 + d12 + d10 + 27 = (average damage) 3.5 + 6.5 + 5.5 + 27 = 42.5

45% crit chance with 5 attacks per round. x2 mod.

42.5 * 5 = 212.5
212.5 * 0.45 = 95.625
95.625 * 2 = 191.25
(212.5-95.625) + 191.25 = 308.125 damage.

Average 1 round damage = 308.125 damage
Average 1 attack damage = 61.625 damage

== Calc 2 ==

Str-based cleric using a wonderforged bastard sword (no divine might).

d10 + 14 + d12 + d10 + 5 + 5 + 1 + 2 = d10 + d12 + d10 + 27 = (average damage) 5.5 + 6.5 + 5.5 + 27 = 44.5

30% crit chance with 5 attacks per round. x2 mod.

44.5 * 5 = 222.5
222.5 * 0.30 = 66.75
66.75 * 2 = 133.5
(222.5-66.75) + 133.5 = 289.25 damage.

Average 1 round damage = 289.25 damage
Average 1 attack damage = 57.85 damage

Right.

That's how the d6 18-20/x2 weapon is better than a d10 19-20/x2 weapon, statistically, in theory.

My observation from in-game -still- tells me however, that it's even better than those numbers show.

Then you add the extra chance of scoring a dev crit on top of that.

Pleased now?

And no, I can't post an explanation as to how the Bioware dice is odd, and gives out more critical hits than it should... but it does. I've seen in for 8 years, and I continue to see it to this day.

If we do this, please nerf scytes to 1d4 20 x1... who the hell whould use a bloody farm tool in a combat. I can tell you one thing but with the sharp edge on the inner side they only one that is going to get hurt by the wild sweeping is you, or the one behind you. Back to Topic, I oppose this nerf, just take away the possibility to get devcrit for rapier ect.

If one wants to make a high crit build sure, just make sure they cant ad the instant kill option to it. Perhaps give deathward imunity to deathcrit, its meant to protect vs instant kill isnt it?

Getting Kukri to 19-20 would suck a bunch, truthfact. Perhaps do something like dual damage with that as well, or raising the damage a bit? That's all I can think of off the top of my head. And I didn't even think of that, I just copied what other people said!

Perhaps be as bold as to make the kukri d4 x3?

I think ideal, for me, is if the crit range was reduced, not to increase the die value, but the crit multiplier to compensate.

Having a higher crit multiplier will have zero effect on Dev-Crit.

Mr Mago wrote:

High AB = More frequent crits.

As in, it exceeds the actual percentage which should be your max crits per round.

I get that on Darth as well.

I wouldn't expect someone who barely plays the action part of this game to really make the observation though, Disco.

O, but I rely on data, the random generator has been bugging me before, and I do have a high ab WM character. Probability calculations are about the only Maths I like as well.

Let's see. This one is of a few low level characters, played on Amia. I'll see if I can find one like that for Bustier as well.

http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dcslob/Book1.htm

There seems to be something wrong with 6 and 17, but I am not sure it's significant. I also saw there were quite a few 17 rolls for initiative in the log. Probably coincidence. The rest is exactly as expected.

Dev Disco wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

High AB = More frequent crits.

As in, it exceeds the actual percentage which should be your max crits per round.

I get that on Darth as well.

I wouldn't expect someone who barely plays the action part of this game to really make the observation though, Disco.

O, but I rely on data, the random generator has been bugging me before, and I do have a high ab WM character. Probability calculations are about the only Maths I like as well.

Let's see. This one is of a few low level characters, played on Amia. I'll see if I can find one like that for Bustier as well.

http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dcslob/Book1.htm

There seems to be something wrong with 6 and 17, but I am not sure it's significant. I also saw there were quite a few 17 rolls for initiative in the log. Probably coincidence. The rest is exactly as expected.

Your AB and AC of opponents?

SephiraAndy wrote:

I think ideal, for me, is if the crit range was reduced, not to increase the die value, but the crit multiplier to compensate.

Having a higher crit multiplier will have zero effect on Dev-Crit.

Could also upset balance greatly if applied incorrectly, to the wrong weapon.

Kukri: 1d4/19-20 Piercing/Slashing (To differentiate from Dagger)

x3 Kukri? With 20 Crit Range? Shit handaxe. With 19-20? Bit OP, no?

Last edited by AlphaWaves on Sat, Jan 16 2010, 13:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Well, I was thinking only for maybe rapier, and kukri.

2d2 damage? it's almost always 3.

Quote:

Kukri: 2d2/19-20 Piercing/Slashing

Is it worth taking exotic prof for it though?

And yes, 19-20/x3 would probably become OP'ed.

Last edited by Yurell on Sat, Jan 16 2010, 13:38 PM, edited 1 time in total.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Kukri: 1d4/19-20 Piercing/Slashing (To differentiate from Dagger)

Exotic Weapon Proficiency just for that? That doesn't seem worth it by far

Edit: Ninja'd by Mago

Sorry, I'm not down with the lingo. What's OP'ed?

Last edited by AlphaWaves on Sat, Jan 16 2010, 13:39 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Overpowered.. duuh

Sorry for the double post.

x3 is't really overpowered, especially for such a small weapon. I mean, massively buffed up axe is perhaps minorly less powerful, but that's the perk of taking an exotic weapon, isn't it?

SephiraAndy wrote:

:? Sorry, I'm not down with the lingo. What's OP'ed?

Overpowered

Mr Mago wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

High AB = More frequent crits.

As in, it exceeds the actual percentage which should be your max crits per round.

I get that on Darth as well.

I wouldn't expect someone who barely plays the action part of this game to really make the observation though, Disco.

O, but I rely on data, the random generator has been bugging me before, and I do have a high ab WM character. Probability calculations are about the only Maths I like as well.

Let's see. This one is of a few low level characters, played on Amia. I'll see if I can find one like that for Bustier as well.

http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dcslob/Book1.htm

There seems to be something wrong with 6 and 17, but I am not sure it's significant. I also saw there were quite a few 17 rolls for initiative in the log. Probably coincidence. The rest is exactly as expected.

Your AB and AC of opponents?

Both low, as suggested by the "low level" comment. I assume you are looking for high AB vs high AC?

Mr Mago wrote:

Quote:

Kukri: 2d2/19-20 Piercing/Slashing

Is it worth taking exotic prof for it though?

And yes, 19-20/x3 would probably become OP'ed.

Probably not, no. I thought making it 2d2 would beef it a tinsy bit, but looking in the toolset I dont think thats possible. I edited my post to 1d4.....Maybe 1d6?

SephiraAndy wrote:

Overpowered.. duuh

Sorry for the double post.

x3 is't really overpowered, especially for such a small weapon. I mean, massively buffed up axe is perhaps minorly less powerful, but that's the perk of taking an exotic weapon, isn't it?

19-20 / x3 would probably be OP'ed.

Dev Disco wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

High AB = More frequent crits.

As in, it exceeds the actual percentage which should be your max crits per round.

I get that on Darth as well.

I wouldn't expect someone who barely plays the action part of this game to really make the observation though, Disco.

O, but I rely on data, the random generator has been bugging me before, and I do have a high ab WM character. Probability calculations are about the only Maths I like as well.

Let's see. This one is of a few low level characters, played on Amia. I'll see if I can find one like that for Bustier as well.

http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dcslob/Book1.htm

There seems to be something wrong with 6 and 17, but I am not sure it's significant. I also saw there were quite a few 17 rolls for initiative in the log. Probably coincidence. The rest is exactly as expected.

Your AB and AC of opponents?

Both low, as suggested by the "low level" comment. I assume you are looking for high AB vs high AC?

High AB vs low or mediocre AC.

That's when it really shows. (aka, the 25 crits in a row mentioning earlier)

Last edited by AlphaWaves on Sat, Jan 16 2010, 13:44 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

19-20 / x3 would probably be OP'ed.

Is that different from a WM with focus in axe

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Quote:

Kukri: 2d2/19-20 Piercing/Slashing

Is it worth taking exotic prof for it though?

And yes, 19-20/x3 would probably become OP'ed.

Probably not, no. I thought making it 2d2 would beef it a tinsy bit, but looking in the toolset I dont think thats possible. I edited my post to 1d4.....Maybe 1d6?

2d2 adds an average of half a point of damage per successful attack, which is far from inspiring. Wouldn't d6 just make it a shortsword that requires Exotic?

Yurell wrote:

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Quote:

Kukri: 2d2/19-20 Piercing/Slashing

Is it worth taking exotic prof for it though?

And yes, 19-20/x3 would probably become OP'ed.

Probably not, no. I thought making it 2d2 would beef it a tinsy bit, but looking in the toolset I dont think thats possible. I edited my post to 1d4.....Maybe 1d6?

2d2 adds an average of half a point of damage per successful attack, which is far from inspiring. Wouldn't d6 just make it a shortsword that requires Exotic?

Its smaller than a shortsword. Which means Halflings and Gnomes can carry it in the offhand.

Mr Mago wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

High AB = More frequent crits.

As in, it exceeds the actual percentage which should be your max crits per round.

I get that on Darth as well.

I wouldn't expect someone who barely plays the action part of this game to really make the observation though, Disco.

O, but I rely on data, the random generator has been bugging me before, and I do have a high ab WM character. Probability calculations are about the only Maths I like as well.

Let's see. This one is of a few low level characters, played on Amia. I'll see if I can find one like that for Bustier as well.

http://staff.science.uva.nl/~dcslob/Book1.htm

There seems to be something wrong with 6 and 17, but I am not sure it's significant. I also saw there were quite a few 17 rolls for initiative in the log. Probably coincidence. The rest is exactly as expected.

Your AB and AC of opponents?

Both low, as suggested by the "low level" comment. I assume you are looking for high AB vs high AC?

High AB vs low or mediocre AC.

That's when it really shows. (aka, the 25 crits in a row mentioning earlier)

Doesn't the difference in damage decrease as the AC of the opponent increases, though? Not everyone has excessively high AB also, nor will always be fighting low AC opponents. I don't challenge the fact that on average a higher crit range will result in more damage, though - to do so would be folly.

WMs tend to have high enough AB to make it worth considering. And Paladins, and Clerics, and Bards... and Barbarians.

Fair enough.

You have a problem with Kukri that hasn't been adequately addressed by any suggestion I've read.

The Exotic Weapon Proficiency Feat buys you 1 extra crit range from a Dagger, which has the same damage.

Problem: Dagger is a Simple weapon. It's not even a Martial weapon. In fact, it's a Rogue, Wizard, Monk, and Druid Weapon if you look at the Weapon Proficiency feats for those classes.

The fact that will be removed by this means one thing - you'll never see another Kukri or Kukri wielder again.

Scimitar and Rapier are different IMO, they are martial weapons that you aren't spending feats on so this mught be reasonable in this case but I have a different suggestion.

My solution?
Make all of them Exotic Weapons. That way you must BUY the extra crit range.

Actually ... I like Maglorine's solution.

Rapiers associated (in my opinion) with bards and rogues. They're slick and are very very common.

Unless, of course, Amia considers them exotic.

I dont think making them Exotic would solve much.

For classes that dont get martial weapons, all it would change is which weapon proficiency feat they take. Exotic instead of Martial. For example Bards and Clerics. And fighters have enough feats to make up for it.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

I dont think making them Exotic would solve much.

For classes that dont get martial weapons, all it would change is which weapon proficiency feat they take. Exotic instead of Martial. For example Bards and Clerics. And fighters have enough feats to make up for it.

But it's an added cost - you're paying a feat to do an average 4 more damage per attack (and that's with a high AB vs a low AC, by Mago's maths). That's not so different to buying Weapon Spec.

No offence guys, but really..

"I like my sweet, huge, two handed greatsword.. way more than any other weapon. Way more than those ridicilously looking toothpics. I love my greatsword. But oh.. it doesnt work as well as the other weapons. Well.. something must be done cause I keep loosing with my sweet sweet greatsword. I know.. lets make all other good weapons that own me into having same stats as shortswords. Yeah.. thats balance. Cause then I can own with my sweet, beutiful greatsword."

Second person goes "Oh yeah.. *thinks how to make this look like a good idea cause she/he too likes her sword* Yeah.. lets do it for haflings! For the love of haflings! They dont have good two hander swords! This is going to be a great solution for the haflings1 YAY! *giggle* "

I dont mean to be sarcastic, but look at yourself.. thats exactly what youre saying, atleast in my eyes.

Nerfing to me goes like this. A bunch of people come onto the forums and see what they can get out of it for themselves.
-Guys with two handers go nerf rapier! nerf kukri! nerf scimitar! why would they be better than MY sword if theyre small and mine is big and I sacrifice a lot to be wealding a two hander!
-Guys with kukris see this is gonna end bad for them so they try to save themselves as much as possible "make kukris do more damage, more damage!"
-Guys without DEV go "omg dont nerf the weapons, nerf the 'broken feat'!"
-Guys with DEV go "omg dont nerf the feat, nerf the 'broken weapons'!"

Why would a small weapon like rapier do more damage than a greatsword? Thats unrealistic right? Well.. if you want realism make rapiers do much less damage, but give the huge swords -20 ab because nobody can swing them as fast as they can move a rapier so its easyer to dodge the big swords.

My point is, you all 'seem to me' to want to make things better for yourselfs only, regardless weather or not something is broken. What is even more funny, is that 99% of the people in the topic, the people who are the most enthusiastic about a nerf and push forward any way they can are none powerbuilders who are in the 'build advice topic' the most. If nobody could get their fort up to 40, then id say dev has a problem. Then id say its the number one thing to be looked at and number one thing that 'needs' a fix. Right now as it stands, you have all the tools to make your fort 40, to get your ac up to mid 70s etc, you got nothing to complain about.

Bigger weapons have their advantages.

Thats my take on all nerf topics in the past, and soon to come in the future.

That being said. I was the one to do the 25 crits in a row, so this is the first nerf topic Ive seen to have validity in my eyes. That comes from a guy that for the last few years has never chosen any other weapon than scimitar/rapier/kukri. And those 25 crits are the reason. If I havent moved countries, Id have a screenshot to show for, sadly I dont. So you can discard it, or take my word for it, but the point is.. those 3 weapons are 'always' my choice, 'all' my characters use one of those weapons, and I honestly think, that they deserve a nerf.

My solution is giving People that take the Dev. crit feat Death attack instead.

Decrease rapier etc crit range

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