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okey...ive got a question..*sighs* i was attacked by :: DM Edit :: ...claiming it is not really pvp..

is this allowed?...no warning no hostile....

DM Edit: Please keep details of specific incidents out of posts like this, per forum rules.

It is an offensive spell, and hence pvp. Doesent really matter if your use a forceful hand or a wail or attack with your sword. Other than that, usually specifics on the forum are a no-no.

well it is for sure PvP....

and if they don't want you to know that they are about to stun and run, why hostile? that is an OOC reminder that they are about to do something, so buff up, IC warning or not! people don't like to give warnings when ICly there should be none, I guess.... although it isn't allowed, it makes sense why he would stun and run without hostile

Don't discuss IC events like this in the forums. Please PM a DM and ask them. Specfic IC happenings that may consist of rule breaking are to be kept to discussions with DM's only.

Last edited by Gers on Tue, Jan 12 2010, 2:25 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Any hostile spell that causes damage or a status effect (like paralyzation) is PvP in my book. The rules require that you give a very blatant indication of your intent to attack, no matter weather you intend to kill or just to immobilizae and flee, unless there's extenuating circumstances. Such as the other person buffing, which is a clear indication they've accepted the possibility of PvP, or you've got a mutually agreed-upon war situation where you've both declared eachother kill-on-sight.

b-but.... IC examples provide insight on general rules that help everyone...

EDIT (because it doesn't deserve its own post):
Light can be considered hostile to drow and SDs, so that should clear the way for PvP too

blackvswhite wrote:

b-but.... IC examples provide insight on general rules that help everyone...

Not if they consist of rulebreaking however. Espically since the other person isn't here to tell their side or anything. It's in the forum rules I believe, and someone should be backing this up. *Looks at Gers*.

as this person was very insistant that this wasnt rule breaking...i was merely asking if it was to a public forum.and please note that i am giving a example of a situation...not mentioning names for just this reason..as i really see this as a minor thing...regardless

:: DM Snippage ::
((Again, please, no specifics.))

Come on people, see the difference in such actions just for the RP purpose to avoid a fight over that of rule mongering that may instead lead to actual PvP.

It doesn't matter why, don't break the forum rules. Dm's already said this you two... and this is why the rules are in place.

Point is, in these situations, you need to screenshot if in doubt, then OOC'ly question the individual, and screenshot the responses.

Forward this to the DM team and they WILL handle it, but try to work it out between each other THEN, not on the forums in everyones view.

Regards,

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

It doesn't matter why, don't break the forum rules. Dm's already said this you two... and this is why the rules are in place.

Point is, in these situations, you need to screenshot if in doubt, then OOC'ly question the individual, and screenshot the responses.

Forward this to the DM team and they WILL handle it, but try to work it out between each other THEN, not on the forums in everyones view.

Regards,

umm i see no dms complaining in this thread..only a dm answering the qustion politely and to the point...

Kraniumbrud wrote:

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

It doesn't matter why, don't break the forum rules. Dm's already said this you two... and this is why the rules are in place.

Point is, in these situations, you need to screenshot if in doubt, then OOC'ly question the individual, and screenshot the responses.

Forward this to the DM team and they WILL handle it, but try to work it out between each other THEN, not on the forums in everyones view.

Regards,

umm i see no dms complaining in this thread..only a dm answering the qustion politely and to the point...

Please note the edit message on your first post.

I think this actually needs discussed by the players. People need to loosen up a bit, not every so called hostile action is meant for PvP. Not all actions towards another player needs to be asked first, scripted actions is not RP at all, its OOC tells to create actions to simulate RP. I always hated it when players send me a tell asking if its okay to hostile and attack Godo, yes yes it is in advance, as long as it fits into the RP at hand and is for the RP of your character.

Why take the rules in a by the letter manner rather then for the spirit of why those rules was created? There is a great difference in most of us who are out there to RP and have fun while trying to create fun and those who are wankers just bolstering their egos.

Make a new thread then Godo and don't refer to any specfic incidents when doing it.

blackvswhite wrote:

EDIT (because it doesn't deserve its own post):
Light can be considered hostile to drow and SDs, so that should clear the way for PvP too

Just so you know, casting Light on a drow does count as initiating PvP

*points to Yurell's post, and gives it the DM stamp of approval*

Light is painful to drow, and prevents SDs from hiding. So, I'd consider it a hostile act.

Can’t we just continue the discussion here without any specific situations? For example.

Gers wrote:

Any hostile spell that causes damage or a status effect (like paralyzation) is PvP in my book. The rules require that you give a very blatant indication of your intent to attack, no matter weather you intend to kill or just to immobilizae and flee, unless there's extenuating circumstances. Such as the other person buffing, which is a clear indication they've accepted the possibility of PvP, or you've got a mutually agreed-upon war situation where you've both declared eachother kill-on-sight.

If the buffing party, within a potential hostile situation, has accepted the possibility of PvP and they are buffing up for that possibility then shouldn’t they hostile before buffing?

As shown buffing can also be a hostile action even if it isn’t harming or negatively affecting the other player. I am not suggesting such a rule should be made but rather demonstrating that the rules or more there to protect players from undo wankerism, not to hinder RP.

They should hostile, yeah. But if they don't, you can attack immediately without hostiling. That's the way I've always seen the rule interpreted. The moment you start buffing in a hostile situation, you're opening yourself up and basicly saying "bust my chops if you want to."

Agreed. If a non hostiled caster started talking smack about blowing me up, then casting defensives without hostiling, they'd get an axe up their butt.

For more, I would redirect you to this thread:

http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtop ... &start=100

Specifically Ruce's last post (which, incidentally is the last post).

Last edited by Kraniumbrud on Tue, Jan 12 2010, 3:36 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Lalelilolu wrote:

Agreed. If a non hostiled caster started talking smack about blowing me up, then casting defensives without hostiling, they'd get an axe up their butt.

and if I jsut told them to pike off..because the person was following you?..and the reply is a forcefull hand in the back of your head without hostiling...

((edited

PvP. It happens, get used to it.

Until permadeath is introduced, character death is not an issue.

Galenson wrote:

PvP. It happens, get used to it.

Until permadeath is introduced, character death is not an issue.

I believe this is a question about the rules regarding PvP, Galenson, not a general complaint about its existence.

Gers wrote:

*points to Yurell's post, and gives it the DM stamp of approval*

Light is painful to drow, and prevents SDs from hiding. So, I'd consider it a hostile act.

Aye. Also, in regards to SD's, when involved in a hostile argument with one and they HiPs, I also view that as a hostile act and will wipe the mat with them as well. It's like a mage duffing when you're in the same situation.

Kranium, if you're worried you were wronged in some way go ahead and send a PM to a DM and we can try and explain things better.

PVP often gets misconstrued, misinterpreted and messy, and I encourage players to take it up with one another if at all possible. If not, then a DM is your next best bet and we'll do what we can.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Gers wrote:

*points to Yurell's post, and gives it the DM stamp of approval*

Light is painful to drow, and prevents SDs from hiding. So, I'd consider it a hostile act.

Aye. Also, in regards to SD's, when involved in a hostile argument with one and they HiPs, I also view that as a hostile act and will wipe the mat with them as well. It's like a mage duffing when you're in the same situation.

As do I. They HiPs on me, that's ever reason for me to have knockdown ready the instant they reappear. Or a line of deathspells.

Yurell wrote:

I believe this is a question about the rules regarding PvP, Galenson, not a general complaint about its existence.

I know, that was my answer.

There's no such thing as permadeath thus PvP shouldn't be an issue for anyone because it's only a five minute inconvenience.

I'm still not fond of wasting potentially hundreds of thousands worth of resources, if someone isn't abiding by the rules before, during or after I do it.

Faerun is not a nice place.

Massasoit wrote:

Faerun is not a nice place.

let me just make this absolutely clear..i am not complaining about pvp..i am questioning how a rule is interpeted...that is all

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Gers wrote:

*points to Yurell's post, and gives it the DM stamp of approval*

Light is painful to drow, and prevents SDs from hiding. So, I'd consider it a hostile act.

Aye. Also, in regards to SD's, when involved in a hostile argument with one and they HiPs, I also view that as a hostile act and will wipe the mat with them as well. It's like a mage duffing when you're in the same situation.

Is disappearing an hostile action though? Its definitely a defensive action, granted, but not necessarily hostile, unless they've threatened first, then HIPS'ed.

soundofastream wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Gers wrote:

*points to Yurell's post, and gives it the DM stamp of approval*

Light is painful to drow, and prevents SDs from hiding. So, I'd consider it a hostile act.

Aye. Also, in regards to SD's, when involved in a hostile argument with one and they HiPs, I also view that as a hostile act and will wipe the mat with them as well. It's like a mage duffing when you're in the same situation.

Is disappearing an hostile action though? Its definitely a defensive action, granted, but not necessarily hostile, unless they've threatened first, then HIPS'ed.

I had a person threaten me, hostile, then hit invis.

Once they realized the pickle they had gotten themselves in, they proceeded to try and run away. Extended Hold Person + Slowly walking up and casting Finger of Death = dead smack talker.

If you set me to hostile, I'm gonna blast you in the face. Don't try and complain about it after the fact. That's just imo.

soundofastream wrote:

Is disappearing an hostile action though? Its definitely a defensive action, granted, but not necessarily hostile, unless they've threatened first, then HIPS'ed.

HiPsing is as "hostile" as casting protective magics on yourself. It's justified if you ask me.

Any and all unwanted Spells cast on you, are pvp in my book. Even the ones that don't count as hostile by the game mechanics, like light.

Remember that if someone casts something like that on you, without setting to hostile, you're not required to spend time to do just that, and can retaliate immediatly without warning.

Pretty sure the same goes for buffing up in a hostile/near hostile situation.
Buffing in those situations is like saying "Okay, we're not going to fight.. but wait while I set up my Cruise missiles."

Also just setting to hostile is not saying "Okay let's pvp". It's -SUPPOSED- to be done, well ahead of a fight, not at the start of one, so that all sides are prepared. It's like in case shit. Sort of like insurance. And means that people can't just jump the gun, immediately they see hostile, and not wait for everyone else to set it.

edit:

And having a dancer, I have to agree. Hipsing in the middle of a hostile situation, is just as bad as casting spells. But that may just be me. When I hips it's usually to 1. Disorient potential enemy. 2. Run and do stuff in preparation for fight.

Which is the same as what mages do, with GS 90% of the time. Except most of them just stand in place and buff.. which make them pretty easy to snag with a reality potion and jump attack.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

soundofastream wrote:

Is disappearing an hostile action though? Its definitely a defensive action, granted, but not necessarily hostile, unless they've threatened first, then HIPS'ed.

HiPsing is as "hostile" as casting protective magics on yourself. It's justified if you ask me.

Well, the thing is it could be just as much as them getting ready to attack as it could be them taking an IC out and using their own means to get away.

The same problem with a mage casting GS; Is he trying to get away or is he preparing to buff and attack?

In any case, just ask in a tell I suppose to be sure. ICly stalking/spying on someone in invis, HiPS, or GS can count as grounds for a hostile I'm thinking.

Gravemaskin wrote:

Also just setting to hostile is not saying "Okay let's pvp". It's -SUPPOSED- to be done, well ahead of a fight, not at the start of one, so that all sides are prepared. It's like in case (censored). Sort of like insurance. And means that people can't just jump the gun, immediately they see hostile, and not wait for everyone else to set it.

Yet we all know the moment someone does what they are suppose to do someone will be used against them so the attacker can run around and go "I PWN YOU ROFL" instead of actually engaging in PvP RP.

:roll:

Regards,

I just got through with setting the whole server to hostile, was about 50 or so players on at the time.

Most people ignored it or didn't notice it, which is what I was hoping for, but about 13-15 players sent me tells of varying degrees. One was a DM and told me that I am not allowed to do that. I think that is wierd.

This is a quote that I read on this forum, and really like it: I don't think it's beyond reasonable to let you know, that warning you OOC of actions that may be taken against you IC due to your choices as a PC is a bit on the side of metagaming, innit? Smile Find out..take chances! Put down the magic 8 ball and throw caution to the wind!

So, apparantly setting hostile should not be seen as IC, but then, it should be? I'm confused.

If you set everyone on the server to hostile, and then GS, you have true, no BS, 100% undetectable invisibility.

This may not be the main reason why it's not allowed to do that, but it should be.

Regards,

O'Raghailligh wrote:

Most people ignored it or didn't notice it, which is what I was hoping for, but about 13-15 players sent me tells of varying degrees. One was a DM and told me that I am not allowed to do that. I think that is wierd.

In all fairness, they have a right to ask. They could see it as the prelude to an assassination. In which case you are required to give the player as "heads up." I've sent a tell before when I've seen it, expecting yeah it was just someone going through the list hostiling everyone, but you have to check. Someone walking through the forest alone somewhere gets a hostiling message could easily suspect some SD, assassin, etc is planning an assassination attempt and isn't giving a heads up.

Hostiling the whole server is really needless anyway. It disrupts ongoing RP and freaks players out needlessly. That's likely why the DM didn't want you to do it.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

If you set everyone on the server to hostile, and then GS, you have true, no BS, 100% undetectable invisibility.

This may not be the main reason why it's not allowed to do that, but it should be.

Regards,

No more than it should be allowed to mord and pvp people that walk around like that. GS on Amia aren't Etheralness afterall. And when people walk around in GS, completely invisible like that, it's either because they have hostile intentions to people, or other way around.

GS Hides you from enemies in battle, from what I've read on the Amia Mechanics thing. It doesn't hide you from people that you aren't in a fight with there and then. (the listing there, seem to focus on that setting to hostile is done in fights only, not 24/7)

And Hostile is only supposed to be used just before a fight. After it's already broken out, whoever started it, had the responsability of setting everyone to hostile.. if he/she didn't and gets GS bugged, then too bad. People that are attacked don't have to set to hostile before retaliating.

Hence, seeing a buffed up mage in GS walking around you, would probably be cause to attack since you're hostile and invisible to people. Especially when everyone that's been in more than 1 fight with a mage, knows that when they go poof from your eyes and ears.. it's because you're in a fight with them.

Also I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere, that using GS in such a way is quite illegal. Only supposed to be used in fights, so you can't use it to spy on someone and so on.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Yet we all know the moment someone does what they are suppose to do someone will be used against them so the attacker can run around and go "I PWN YOU ROFL" instead of actually engaging in PvP RP.

:roll:

Regards,

I guess I just like to assume that people follow normal PvP ethics(What -I- see as normal pvp ethics at least, since I read the last time the PvP rules topics popped up, that setting to hostile isn't auto agreeing that a fight breaks out then and there, but that RP can lead to the fight. And it should be treated as such, not the same as casting a spell. Especially since setting to hostile is more or less an OOC thing, and a char can't 'sense' it, unless a GSed person goes poof or similar.) and good behavior. I don't like to assume that everyone's opportunistic bastards.

Besides if they are, that's always remembered for future conflicts. And you can bring up previous fights where they did just that, if they whine when they loose in pvp.

If your in a situation thats obviously strenious, like two enemies meeting to talk, or banites & anyone who isn't a banite, then if the opposing person suddenly casts invis or start saying magic words, it's logical that the other person is going to get on edge and smack them in the face with whatever they have first.

Otherwise having some random person who your character doesn't interact with suddenly cast Invis, well thats just some random casting Invis. You'd have no RP reason really to act on it. Same situation in cities such as Cordor. If someone goes HIPS or Invis or GS suddenly, you can't assume thats them attacking you.

It comes down to *gulps* maturity and sensiability. You have to be sensible about it. I know the idea of suggesting amian's use their "maturity" and "common sense" is like asking a sword not to stab you in the gut when it's swinging right at you, but thats what I think it comes down to.

I see no need for detailed commentary on the rules in question. They're simple enough. We should make calls in individual situation, not post additional rules, clarifications and clauses in obscure forum topics, IMO.

Personally, I don't think you should even worry about the technicalities of rules if everyone's fine. If you feel you've been griefed or offended, refer to the rules. If the RP's going on and nobody feels unreasonably slighted, roll with it.

Detailed rules cause more problems than they solve: you will get into arguments not because there was any actual harm done, but because you feel the rules weren't followed to the letter. If the rule was simply "Don't grief" you'd only get into these arguments if you felt actually griefed. That's a bit too vague for a server as big as ours, but we should strive to keep it simple anyhow.

soundofastream wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Gers wrote:

*points to Yurell's post, and gives it the DM stamp of approval*

Light is painful to drow, and prevents SDs from hiding. So, I'd consider it a hostile act.

Aye. Also, in regards to SD's, when involved in a hostile argument with one and they HiPs, I also view that as a hostile act and will wipe the mat with them as well. It's like a mage duffing when you're in the same situation.

Is disappearing an hostile action though? Its definitely a defensive action, granted, but not necessarily hostile, unless they've threatened first, then HIPS'ed.

Once you HiPS, there's no way for the other person to know if you're intending to attack or preparing to do so, so if the RP has been hostile, it's reasonable to assume it is preceding an attack.

Quote:

In all fairness, they have a right to ask. They could see it as the prelude to an assassination. In which case you are required to give the player as "heads up." I've sent a tell before when I've seen it, expecting yeah it was just someone going through the list hostiling everyone, but you have to check. Someone walking through the forest alone somewhere gets a hostiling message could easily suspect some SD, assassin, etc is planning an assassination attempt and isn't giving a heads up.

Actually that's not the PvP Assassination rules at all. They are:

10. Assassinations: Assassins must inform a DM that they are about to perform a hit. If a DM is unavailable, the assassin must inform the target instead.

In my experience, and I've done it often enough, the DMs are NOT required to inform the Mark, only inform the player upon the hit taking effect or shortly thereafter. However, as far as I know, they do it anyway, warning the player of an assassination attempt pending (much to my disappointment but I just live with it most times).

Assassinations, done correctly are pure nasty and the victim has little chance to survive, unless they get a warning OOC and act on it. I've noticed, in my time, that if a DM is on and warns them, they don't act on it, realising the DM is watching them buff, etc...however, if a player warns them, they do buff immediately.

If I'm assassinating someone and I have to tell them directly, I usually warn them a week or three ahead....then wait for them to put their guard down and hit. If I'm doing it via DM, I do it then and there.

By hostiling everyone on the server, you achieve nothing, but by hostiling the Mark each and every time you log in, he'll never know when you're about to strike.

soundofastream wrote:

Quote:

In all fairness, they have a right to ask. They could see it as the prelude to an assassination. In which case you are required to give the player as "heads up." I've sent a tell before when I've seen it, expecting yeah it was just someone going through the list hostiling everyone, but you have to check. Someone walking through the forest alone somewhere gets a hostiling message could easily suspect some SD, assassin, etc is planning an assassination attempt and isn't giving a heads up.

Actually that's not the PvP Assassination rules at all. They are:

10. Assassinations: Assassins must inform a DM that they are about to perform a hit. If a DM is unavailable, the assassin must inform the target instead.

That's exactly what I said with the addition of contacting a DM. And IIRC, DM's have said you can contact the player or DM. The end result is the same.

Jyro X wrote:

If you set me to hostile, I'm gonna blast you in the face. Don't try and complain about it after the fact. That's just imo.

Hostiling by itself isn't enough to initiate PvP.

You still need to follow the PvP protocol, as it is specified in the rules.

Seeing assassinations allow one to forgo the general PVP rules (you don't need to give an out, don't need to rp beforehand and can attack out of stealth) it gives the assassin a large advantage both IC and OCc. What exactly counts as assassinating someone in this regard?

Can I decide that I am assassinating someone to avoid having to give him an out and break stealth, or does this only apply when someone hired me to do it? (can I ''hire'' myself and perform a hit on someone just because I want the drop on them basically)

Can I be sneaking around as drow and find a surface person having a picknick and decide to assassinate them right there?

Can I hire an assassin to kill anyone, like some random person I just met and don't like, or someone I never rped with but know off? (like, leader of a church, opposing factiom member) Can anyone assassinate or only prc assassins?

Mr Mago wrote:

Jyro X wrote:

If you set me to hostile, I'm gonna blast you in the face. Don't try and complain about it after the fact. That's just imo.

Hostiling by itself isn't enough to initiate PvP.

You still need to follow the PvP protocol, as it is specified in the rules.

Indeed Mago is right. I could set anyone I wished to hostile, but without preceding RP neither of us could react to it in a violent way.

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

If you set everyone on the server to hostile, and then GS, you have true, no BS, 100% undetectable invisibility.

This may not be the main reason why it's not allowed to do that, but it should be.

Regards,

You don't. Thanks to GS being glitchy as hell.

Mr Mago wrote:

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

If you set everyone on the server to hostile, and then GS, you have true, no BS, 100% undetectable invisibility.

This may not be the main reason why it's not allowed to do that, but it should be.

Regards,

You don't. Thanks to GS being glitchy as hell.

And dragon shape / umberhulk

...pvp....

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