As opposed to someone RPing a spy without all the details that would legitimately allow someone to figure it out, and without their bluff skills coming into play (where applicable, of course)? Be an arse unto others if you wish other to be an arse unto you.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

You are right in that I have spent years infiltrating factions, and training others to do so. I have spent countless hours getting to know my marks, getting to know the inner workings of the factions, and then deciding just how I would go about working my way not only in but up through the ranks.

However, all the work done should not be turned away on a homebrewed spell that is placed on every member. I would not argue this point if the spell had a counter, that perhaps took a long time and even partial self sacrifice of some sort. That even if the spell did not have a counter was only placed on those with suspicious activity.

I agree it sucks to see someone come into the faction with the soul intent of publishing every last detail. That if this was an extremely realistic setting said person would be dead before they got the chance unless they where very very skilled. Unfortunately this is not the server we play, and almost godmoding with a spell that is not cannon lore with no counter is no way to rp.

The sharrans have a system in place that is not perfect, it does however grant us a chance to seek some sort of revenge on traitors. Have we had spies within our ranks before? Yes certainly, how do we come to know them? Through extensive RP, and the fact that when Ray was running them he trusted noone.

If you wish to route out spies you should be willing to invest time in doing so, it's a matter of respect IMO. If someone invests countless hours working there way into your ranks, you should show them the same courtesy by finding them out through IC methods.

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Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM

I think if everyone started lining up at electric castle the lich may run out of seed cakes and tea for everyone, start resorting to over powered hellballs.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Or randomise the colours every few seconds just for kicks.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

"Bwhahahaha! I just killed the impecator of Bane while he was showing that recruit how do walk through the red light! Bwhahaha!. Lets put these things in Cordor and see what happens!"

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

That's your and the DM's business on how the faction is run, Ray, and I used you for the example because I =know= you know it, hence why I said such.

But the point remains that most organized religious institutes would not exist in the realms as they are and be as easily infiltratable as you suggest. They would have been destroyed a long time ago. Would I, as a player, deny a character who went through months of IG training to get pass said "obstacle" just flat out because I want an inpenetrable faction?

Of course not. But that should be the exception, not the rule.

But we're very much drifting off topic here and focusing on a very specific aspect of the conversation.

I'm personally pleased to see the majority of players responding in this thread say the same thing basically.. respect the faction your in.

Good stuff!



Regards,

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"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere

Most religious groups have a strict and long process of recruitment where they watch the recruits and see what they are doing. Literally years and years of time before they are even accepted into the Order they are applying for. This time will involve rigerous and numerous tests of faith to the god they are working with. Missions for the god. Etc Etc. Even then you may not make it to the upper echelion of the order.

On Amia that kinda time just isn't possible to have one person join a faction.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Bluff skill doesn't have to come into play at all. It's perfectly doable to find out without anyone ever having to roll a thing. Like sneaking after whom ever you have a suspision about, hiring people to test their loyalty, etc. It doesn't hurt actually working for it. And let's be real here, and admit that having 100+ Bluff and abusing that, is just as lame and worthless, and if a spy has no more creative means of getting into a faction, he's not worth his salt.

What I'm talking about is keeping the game fun to play. It's no fun taking the easy way out all the time, and rolls, allignment lightbeams or idols are just that; easy ways out. Boring!

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

I merely used the sharrans as an example. My point is spies invest alot of time to infiltrate a faction, should a faction have fail safes yes, but ones that are not all mighty in the sense bane pays so much attention to the little isle of amia that he will personally smite you.

As for infiltrating the churchs of the realms, certain powers of the realms are infamous for it. Does that mean its easy? No but then again in the realms these factions are infamous and not just common people. Who by in large would be too scared to even concidere it. And well amia is a place for us all to be heroes or villains.

Yes we are drifting off point here, as our debate is about spies and not OOC metagamed info from faction +1 toons.

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Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM

Quick question, PnP spells need permission before used... If I refuse to roleplay of a spell like that (detect evil, Zone of Truth) can the other party make an IC conclusion that the person is evil/must be lying?

Like... cleric meets a character he never saw before.
A:What's your name?
B: Bob
A: //permission to Detect Lies?
B: //no
A: You are lying, that's not your real name!

No. Thats ooc, I'd almost call it metagaming. Unless they have an IC reason not to believe the lie, they can't. I believe only monks have that little lie detecting thing.

Floating names above a persons head are not IC. For further clarification, contact a DM.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

I just avoid playing with people like that, easy. <.<

A: How would you know?


But yeah, I'd count that as metagaming too.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

That is directly metagaming. It is a minor retconning that must happen, because if there is no consent to use PNP , then you must assume the question never came up in RP. Your characters cannot draw conclusions based on a spell thatwas never cast because there was no consent.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Would it be possible for someone like me who has a spy to get a name-change for him to something like....'The Namelsees One', or 'Unknown'?

_________________

That would be cool...

I've always wanted to make a Kobold by the name "Kobold".

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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I see where the OP is coming from and I agree to an extent. I don't agree in the DM's telling people how to run faction and telling others which way they may join factions, but I do believe a faction leader should be free to impose certain rules and criteria on any who wish to join their faction. They should be able to safe guard their factions if they want to.

With that said, I don't agree with the whole "stick to one faction!" or the whole "if your in a faction before joining mine, you can't join!" deals. But that's neither here nor there. I still think the faction leaders should be free to do that if that's how they do things. It's their own faction who suffers or gains from what I consider silly rules, not mine. One DM rule regarding factions I do support though is the one that says a player may only lead one faction. That rule is positive for the server on many levels.

I've only ever had one or two PC's in factions at a time. I've never gone over that amount as a personal unwritten rule for myself. I don't impose it, but it just seems to happen that way. Right now, my main is faction-less, my Drow alt is in a faction and my Human alt is kind of in a faction (A Kellie involved with the main church and the EO, but not a part of the EO itself). Anyone who knows me well enough knows that in a situation where my main (Willow) is involved in a conflict where a faction of my other two alts is involved in, the alts take a back seat to Willow. If Willow would ICly be involved in something one of my alts would be, I come up with something so that my alts stay out of it and I stick to Willow. I think Gabe and Gers probably know that already. Willow always comes first to me and it's been made pretty clear in my playing habits.

I've made it a point for a very long time to not involve my PC's with each other either. Two of my PC's know of each other, but that's it. They don't know each other, never met each other, nothing like that. I like to keep it that way because I don't want to be accused of metagaming or godgaming or whatever other cute word people come up with. This is a personal choice and I actually like it. I don't force it on myself, it's natural. Now, I'm not downing anyone who does otherwise. Not at all. Hell, I know plenty of other great RPers who's characters know each other.



This happened to me with the Kellies. Pretty much all of them come on when I'm usually sleeping or waking up. I decided that instead of leaving, I would try and help get the player base during my play time have a Kellie presence and maybe attract players to the Kellies who play when I usually do. Admittedly, I haven't jumped on that full force yet, but I still plan to.

I don't expect most people would do as I do in cases like that though and I cant blame them. I just happen to be a bit stubborn, I don't give up easily, which works in my favor here.



I totally agree. If there's one thing I hate in factions, is when a person or persons in positions of power neglect the faction and the faction suffers or dies because of them. It's selfish and very unfair to those players who actually -do- spend time on their faction characters and want to help the faction thrive.

In most of these cases, I think things can be handled through IC action. In others, admittedly very few, I feel the DMs should step in and help players who are trying to keep the faction alive take over and make the people sitting on power move aside.

In fact I tried to get that across in one situation in the past and it was pretty much disregarded. My response was to leave the faction with legit IC reasons since there was nothing I could do anymore, ICly or OOCly.



Agreed in full. When Willow finally left the Grove after a long long time, both IC time and OOC time, of thinking about leaving, she didn't lose one bit of her enjoyability to me. I actually dare say it was funner to play her.

I think the problem here is that some people might create characters based on a faction rather than making a deep character who can survive and continue to be enjoyable beyond any one faction. I'm happy to say that all my characters are deep enough and fleshed out enough to where if they left a faction they're in, it would not phase their enjoyability.



Agreed. Factions should be player run. They should rise, fall, shine and dim by the hand(s) of us, the players. Like I said earlier, I feel there are only a handful of situations where DM's can and should step in. I'm fully against DM run factions, besides cities and towns. When I say DM run factions, I mean when they're run DM side, not a DM player side.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

DM's will do this for you for a temporary amount of time if you're trying to spy, are shifted or undercover with different cloths. Things like that. Dunno about other situations.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

I won't. Don't ask me to.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

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We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know.

So I just read the first post, the official DM answer and then pretty much skipped the rest.

It's up to the players, but wanting to have a character in every faction is just very gay and cowardly and disrespectful to all the factions.

Indiscriminately wanting to be a part of everything and then later not making a good commitment to every single one, that's disrespectful. Having always an escape tunnel because you can pick and choose what side of a given conflict you play on, that's cowardly. And it's very gay because that guy is depriving himself and others of a better roleplaying experience. You wanna be part of something that you think is cool. You don't want to have eyes behind the scenes of every other faction. Once you learn something OOC, you can either be a good puppy and look entirely the other way, or you can miraculously do the steps to learn it IC. Either way is forced. But I've brought this up many times by now, and endless repetition is also gay.

What a wonderful array of insults. I can understand disrespectful, but where does 'cowardly' or 'gay' come into it? Playing whichever character you choose is more likely to be for fun than to be on the winning side, and as for it being 'gay' and depriving other of RP ... ummm, you're giving it to more people.



There's that wonderful word again ... is there anything that isn't 'gay' in your world?

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Could you please not be disrespectful to sexual minorities Xordae? Thanks.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

First time I've used this little word in one of my arguments, and already there come two who have a problem with it. If you aren't aware that a lot of people substitute "stupid" and "dumb" with "gay" without meaning to insult homosexuals, then you must live out in the jungle? Or wait, you were just trying to nit-pick at the form instead of looking at the content. Thumbs up.

I attacked your argument first and then complained about the word. Thumbs up for strawman though.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Actually you whizzed right past the argument. Playing many characters is fun, I do it too. But Characters =/= Factions, and Factions are the point of interest in this thread. I've given reasons as to why "these things which I said" are. Agree or don't agree, but that they are hard to understand? Lol.

In case you missed it, my comparison to playing for fun was an argument against your assumption people play different factions just to be on the winning side, and my argument against it being 'gay' is that you aren't depriving people of RP, you're giving it to more people.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Fair enough. It still entails that you, as a hypothetical player who has a character in every faction, know ALL the angles and have the ability to, discretely or even without ill intent, metagame your way to this knowledge or to a given solution to a problem.

The Drow used to be high up on the "player in every faction" chart, and nothing good came of it. Because people aren't doing it just for fun, they're doing it often for the reasons I outlined in my earlier post here. Fun is the ideal, but as soon as the environment turns just a little bit competitive, it goes out the window and we're back in a world of metagaming, picking sides because you can, and factions whose players are so spread out that attendance is lackluster.

I don't metagame. I hear that so often. Even from my own lips occasionally. I prefer to let my own spotless record of no metagaming for so many years attest to the fact that I don't. But when people say it, and expect me to spill every IC secert just on their word, it annoys me. When I tell them I won't tell them due to metagaming, and they get grumpy because they think I feel they will metagame, that also annoys me.

People may not tell you things not because they think you won't metagame, bu because they don't want to risk it. Even if they 90% feel you won't say a thing. They simply don't want to risk it. I've probably pissed off a few people with this, lost a few freinds, but it doesn't seem fair to lose said freinds because I won't spill my guts.

So while we are on the topic of metagaming, people, please respect someones wish to not tell you due to metagaming, and don't hassle them, it's likely they want to tell, but due to obligations, simply can't, or simply don't want to risk it. Don't take offence.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Well Xordae, I'm telling you, it -does- offend most same-sex attracted people. Anyway, you know now, so I'll leave you and Yurell to sort out the actual topic. Good O.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

Then it is the act of choosing to help one side OOCly to the benefit of your character that is cowardly and not the act of belonging to multiple factions. The act of belonging to multiple factions wasn't discussed in your post except for the 'disrespectful', which I disagree with but didn't contest.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

You say choosing, I say it comes with the territory. You can be as good-natured as you like when the reptilian part of your brain tells you to either win or flee. Reason isn't the only contender here. People don't like to lose, so don't simplify the entire dynamic of this down to a player's choice that is either enlightened or dumb.

When it turns out that most people are drawn to acting selfishly because losing makes your head hurt, you might want to take a look at the situation again, and consider if the situation isn't a contributor.

Of course the situation is a contributor, I certainly don't deny that, but I deny being in the situation is inherently bad because it can lead to that result. Just like eating chips isn't necessarily bad (in the broad sense f the word, it is certainly unhealthy) just because some people may choose to have it form a majority of their diet - others have it just for the enjoyment.

Edit: And yes, I do realise that was a particularly bad analogy.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I'll wrap this up: The less extra stuff the player knows when compared to the character he is playing, the better he is off. Learning things as a player that are beyond the horizon of your character will lead to metagaming every single time. Why so absolute? Because I've observed it with myself, and I consider myself to be a strong fair play advocate. If you are in faction A and faction B and they are adversaries, you as a player will learn things that you wouldn't learn when only playing 1 of the 2 characters, and this will change how you act.

Don't consider this a strong enough contributing factor yet? I consider it as oh my god, it's blowing my mind how people can still do it. I'm not sure what side of the Underdark you see, to take up that example again, but I saw it over the course of a few years, and this "one player in every house" syndrome was bad, was ugly and it was even known to people how much metagaming it created. And that's aside of the already known Drow tendency for the bad and ugly kind of play.

And now come the pridefully swollen chests and everyone telling me how they can separate OOC from IC, how they would never, etc etc. Heard it all before, please spare me it. Admit to a bit of sh*tty reality at least once a day, it's great for the sinuses.

My solution to that is if you play in multiple factions, try to avoid ones that are adversarial. One needn't join factions that are polar opposites, but in my experience I have been part of Barak Runedar (not a particularly tight-knit faction), Mulhorandics, Red Wizards, the Salandrans the Arach Tinilth and House Xull'd'Vharcan at the same time. Multiple factions ... but none of them directly opposed (which is how I got away with it).
And I've not yet been accused of metagaming.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

When it comes to PCs, less is certainly more. If you have a limited attention span, at least let your guy die a horrific death in some dungeon before you roll up something new. The alternative is a great grievance of Amia: to have an army of forgettable PCs, suffering from creativity spread thinly, and that while being utterly disposable, are never disposed of in a way that brings a story arc to a satisfactory end.

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To err is human; to forgive divine, but VENGEANCE IS MINE!

You should've said faggy. Fags aren't gay people, they're obnoxious bikers. So faggy works, unless some loud leatherwearing biker is going to whine about it.

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Profiles: DakoDako & ElWacko

Characters: Currently trying my best to stick to Beridoc Brushgale

Errr... okay then, -some- DM's -might- change your name temporarily... Or at least some DM's used to. ::shrugs::



Shut up, f- oh right, we're being nice. Hi, friend! ::waves::

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

The main problem I have with the phrase "That's gay", beyond what homosexuals may or may not take offence to, is that it means nothing beyond "I find that generally unlikeable". It's just a broad-sweeping statement that shows dislike without any supporting arguments whilst denigrating the subject.

The fact that supporting evidence was provided later means that the term itself was entirely unnecessary even beyond that. And while it may mean "I find that generally unlikeable", what they are saying is "This is a bad thing". The former is an opinion, but the language used (it is) means that it is being stated absolutely as unlikeable, and beyond that, denigrated, since therm 'gay' is intended as denigration, whether it may or may not be considered distasteful to be called a homosexual.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Shut up and stay on target.

Errr, topic. Kthxbye.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

And this coming from the person who has an opinion for everything and asks that you not be offended when they inevitably give it.

Well, here's the thing, it's all 'out' now.
If you are gay, that's fine, welcome to the world, you can be picked on like everyone else, like the rest of us. I'm a white Heterosexual male, and I'm to blame for EVERYTHING!

God forbid I call a person 'gay', oh dear lord, he's a homophobe!

Was that spam necessary in this topic?

1. As it turns out, I'm not offended by your opinion, merely dislike the use of the word
2. You intended it to be denigration. Whether it was denigrating or not is beyond the point, the intent was to use it as an insult, rather than as a constructive criticism
3. The above insinuates that you view homosexuality as something to be insulted over
4. I'm anything but a bloody homophobe. I spend a lot of time with homosexuals girls at uni, I'm to spend the next few days with my homosexual cousin (male), one of my closest friends through grades 5-8 was homosexual. Randomly denigrating by denoting me to be a homophobe will not succeed since it is wrong
5. Your opinion has nothing to do with your word choice. I could say "I dislike most metal bands because of the heavy sounds and the lack of large numbers of instruments found in classical orchestras" or "Metal bands are gay". Both are the same opinion, one is more offensive than the other go figure

By the way, you may be happy to know that I'm a heterosexual half-English half-Dutch Caucasian male born in Australia, whether that makes any difference is up to you, since you obviously found it important enough to mention your own race and sexual preferences in your post.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Im actually an asian homosexual

Indeed it was not, but I'm not going to let something that I dislike so stand unanswered unless a) O'Raghailligh drops it, b) A DM tells us to drop it or c) I am prevented from responding (e.g. a topic lock).

Edit: I put in the wrong name. Sorry Camthrax, I have no idea why I wrote yours.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Just as necessary as yours was, if not more, in that it was attempting to diffuse or reposition/evaluate certain hostilities that have been taken. Yurell is easily offended and take -everything- as a personal attack. How about you relax and get a life.

Uhm... ok. Next time use PMs, but yeah, they don't up the postcount.

Excuse me? When I objected to the use of the word 'gay' I did not take it as a personal attack. Your statement here, however, is one, which is against the forum rules of conduct.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

QFE

Lock please, spams got out of hand.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"