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TormakSaber wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Well I have to say, that is very very disappointing, espically since it's one of the core skills of Assassin. Kinda have the say it feels like Assassins taking that blow instead of SD then, given the state of the Assassin class.

And thats what I meant Tormak. It's not applied correctly. It's a fundemental problem with game developers translating Turn Based RP's to Realtime RPG's. Some of the abilities don't translate well, and in HIPS case, it wasn't done correctly. It needs to be corrected for NWN.

I've played Neverwinter Nights 2, where rangers and assassins get HIPS. the reality of the situation becomes: No one takes Shadowdancer anymore. The class becomes irrelevant, its namesake ability given to other classes. Everyone already knows how "bad" the class is, aside from the rogue bonus feats and HIPS. Too much more and the class becomes.. .well, you may as well remove it.

It's a crap class that probably shouldn't have been put in there nayway, esecially if on feat is the absolutely only reason to take it.

Yea, and so have I. I have seen it to, but in all fairness NWN2 also doesn't add a lot of abilities to SD that NWN has.

SD would be fine if it's other abilities where buffed up to compete with Assassin and Rangers abilities. In saying this however I'm not fighting for Ranger, it's powerful enough as it is and unless the HIPS can be limited to outside areas only it's a lost cause. But Assassin suffers from many of the same problems on NWN that SD does. The only saving grace seemingly being HIPS on SD making it worth taking. Assassin has underpowered abilities also, and the posion stuff isn't worth scrap on Amia. Death Attack doesn't do much, and none of the "special widgets" are worth using or getting as they aren't effected by the number of assassin levels you take.

Basically if the other supporting abilities of both classes were buffed up to work better they would provide two very different roads to take as HIPSer's. I'm not going to fight for rangers however, I agree they don't need the help.

Edit: If the abilities need to be slightly tweaked differently then the PnP equilivent, then isn't that just like tweaking HIPS for work better on NWN, dispite it being exactly the same as it's PnP equilivent?

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none of the "special widgets" are worth using or getting as they aren't effected by the number of assassin levels you take.

Yes they are. They use assassin level as caster level. Just like the other abilities.

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Basically if the other supporting abilities of both classes were buffed up to work better they would provide two very different roads to take as HIPSer's.

Nyet. One way you lose essential class skills, sneak attack, and gain bonus feats you could have gotten simply by going more ranger levels.

The other way you keep full sneak attack, gain death attack, gain more useful spell likes, gain the soon to come assassin buffs, and still get HIPS.

Not balanced. SD being the sole class with HIPS is the reason HIPS even remains balanced. If you wat the feat you need to sink the feats and 6 class levels into it.

TormakSaber wrote:

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none of the "special widgets" are worth using or getting as they aren't effected by the number of assassin levels you take.

Yes they are. They use assassin level as caster level. Just like the other abilities.

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Basically if the other supporting abilities of both classes were buffed up to work better they would provide two very different roads to take as HIPSer's.

Nyet. One way you lose essential class skills, sneak attack, and gain bonus feats you could have gotten simply by going more ranger levels.

The other way you keep full sneak attack, gain death attack, gain more useful spell likes, gain the soon to come assassin buffs, and still get HIPS.

Not balanced. SD being the sole class with HIPS is the reason HIPS even remains balanced. If you wat the feat you need to sink the feats and 6 class levels into it.

Assassin also losses essential class skills, no more UMD for one, and losses skill points when taking it to. You don't get as much skill points to fill in the assassin class skills when you take it. You also don't get the bonus rogue feats such as defensive roll and oppertunist, some of these feats are needed to gain the most powerful rogue-like feat, Epic Dodge.

And when I had assassin way back when, I never noticed even the slightest change in the duration or strength of my assassin widgets dispite the ten levels I had in Assassin. When I examined the widget it seemingly just cast a specfic level spell of ghostly visage.

Edit: Oops on close inspection I realised UMD is included. My bad.

Last edited by Mahtan on Wed, Dec 30 2009, 5:09 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Assassin do get UMD last I checked. Pretty much every skill Rogues get only less skill points per level.

Sin Skills: appraise, bluff, craft armor, craft trap, craft weapon, disable trap, heal, hide, intimidate, listen, lore, move silently, open lock, pick pocket, search, set trap, spot, tumble, use magic device

Rogue Skills: appraise, bluff, craft armor, craft trap, craft weapon, disable trap, heal, hide, intimidate, listen, lore, move silently, open lock, parry, persuade, pick pocket, search, set trap, spot, tumble, use magic device

Shadowdancer Skills: heal, hide, listen, lore, move silently, persuade, pick pocket, search, spot, tumble

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Assassin also losses essential class skills, no more UMD for one, and losses skill points when taking it to. You don't get as much skill points to fill in the assassin class skills when you take it. You also don't get the bonus rogue feats such as defensive roll and oppertunist, some of these feats are needed to gain the most powerful rogue-like feat, Epic Dodge.

But you don't need to go SD. Which means 6 more rogue level which is 2 more rogue bonus feats if pre epic. There's your epic dodge pre reqs. Done.

Yes I know, I just checked.

Persuade and Parry are the skills. Not much use perhaps, but you do lose some class skills. Not essiential. Think my mind blurred things for a moment due to the lesser INT skill modifier.

Edit: and yea your right Tormak, you don't HAVE to take SD. But if the skills of both the classes were changed to work on different tactics when taken it would provide and different route to getting HIPS/Epic Dodge. For example, Summon Shadow was buffed up it would provide an ally route, Shadow Daze would provide a will attack, Shadow Evade would provide a decent AC bonus for a long amount of time, as well as provide perhaps a significent hide bonus?

Assassins Obscuring mist could provide a long time concealment that lasts for a while, and whatever the other widgets where could do specfic things, perhaps providing there own acid damage on blades or whatever. Kinda like FW only with Acid.

Just different roads that require different tactics. Death attack could be left the same way it is to balance the two classes better. *Shrugs*

Anyway thats my suggestions, I'm gonna go play me some AOE II now.

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I will not be held responsible for the creation of this thread! I didn't create it! I didn't make "yet another HIPS thread". Sad

I created it, as I was first the one to mention the HiPS hak in the hak thread, although whoever split it decided to start with you. I'm perfectly willing to take full responsibility though.

As far as the assassin thing goes y'all goofed up there twice over making freedom and see invisibility so absurdly easily available. I very much doubt giving them hips too would make SDs irrelevant because 1) you have to play evil to play assassin and 2) you can't get ED with Ass (yes Ass, not Sin, it's Ass until it gets fixed) alone. Plus, you could always make shadow summon 1/hour a level and evade 1/turn a level should HiPs get "nerfed" properly.

BloodNAshes wrote:

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I will not be held responsible for the creation of this thread! I didn't create it! I didn't make "yet another HIPS thread". Sad

I created it, as I was first the one to mention the HiPS hak in the hak thread, although whoever split it decided to start with you. I'm perfectly willing to take full responsibility though.

As far as the assassin thing goes y'all goofed up there twice over making freedom and see invisibility so absurdly easily available. I very much doubt giving them hips too would make SDs irrelevant because 1) you have to play evil to play assassin and 2) you can't get ED with Ass (yes Ass, not Sin, it's Ass until it gets fixed) alone. Plus, you could always make shadow summon 1/hour a level and evade 1/turn a level should HiPs get "nerfed" properly.

If ED means Epic Dodge, than your wrong. You can take the required 'Defensive Roll' as a bonus rogue feat. Although I agree that giving assassins HiPS would be great. There won't be a situation where everyone dumps SD, as alot of the SDs I see are neutral or good, making them unable to get the EVIL class anyway. Increasing the SD abilities sounds like a fine idea, along with adding the cooldown timer on HiPS as an accompanying nerf.

Last edited by BloodNAshes on Wed, Dec 30 2009, 5:48 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Hence you can't get ED with Assassin *alone*. It matters.

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you can't get ED with Ass (yes Ass, not Sin, it's Ass until it gets fixed) alone.

BloodNAshes wrote:

Hence you can't get ED with Assassin *alone*. It matters.

You can't get assassin alone, anyway.

So what?

If you're making a ranger or monk being able to go 10 or 6 SD and getting HiPS and the possibility of Epic Dodge is a lot better than going 13 Rogue for Defensive Roll and Imp. Evasion. You don't need UMD as a monk really and 20 monk/6 SD/4 whatever is a lot better than 20 monk/10 rogue. 20 ranger/10 whatever (or 10 ranger/10 sd/10 whatever) for ED is also a lot better than x ranger/13 rogue.

EDIT: The point is SD is the best way to get ED, especially for monks, and even for rogues themselves, unless you're doing some weird novelty build trying to get the highest sneak dice possible.

BloodNAshes wrote:

EDIT: The point is SD is the best way to get ED, especially for monks, and even for rogues themselves, unless you're doing some weird novelty build trying to get the highest sneak dice possible.

Well, I can agree it is the second-most efficent way to get Epic Dodge. Command Console is the first. But yes, overall, I highly doubt that allowing assassin to take HiPS would doom the SD class. As you need to be an evil prick to be assassin for one and like you pointed out, the SD path has many benefits that differ it from the assassin class.

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I've played Neverwinter Nights 2, where rangers and assassins get HIPS. the reality of the situation becomes: No one takes Shadowdancer anymore. The class becomes irrelevant, its namesake ability given to other classes. Everyone already knows how "bad" the class is, aside from the rogue bonus feats and HIPS. Too much more and the class becomes.. .well, you may as well remove it.

That isn't true at all... on nwn2 you can take feats like practiced spellcaster *which adds four caster levels from none caster levels* which makes taking SD and burning two feats worth it over 8 assassin where any cleric or wizard who can cast a level 2 spell can now bypass your death attack and sneak attacks *living undeath spell* or 17 ranger levels and ranger hips ONLY works outdoors.

Most of the sane servers have banned Living Undeath for that reason, so your argument isn't really valid. Most of the Storms of Zehir stuff is absolutely broken and some servers don't use it at all.

you would be surprised... the top servers *by player base* still use it though one has changed it to a battle buff only *6 seconds per caster level* I agree though the SOZ stuff totally ruined any form of balance *not that favored soul didn't do it in MOTB*. This is all from a build standpoint only... most nwn2 builds will take 2 sd at the most for both evasion and hips. You won't find many assassins on nwn2 simply because they are so weak like in nwn1 and most rangers will still take SD simply so they can use hips in underground areas.. I agree though that hips should have a timer because spaming it *to me* is an exploit. I also like that that on amia you do not get hips on first level.

SD 10 = Epic Dodge + 10x Shadowjump + 4 dodge (stackable) AC + HiPS + Tumble + MS + Hide.

SD at epics = Bonus feats + Epic shadow summon.

SD is the most effective route to Epic Dodge for a lot of builds.

Giving Assassins HiPS doesn't break balance (but it does make Assassin worth taking). You'll still need Rogue or SD to get Epic Dodge.

I wouldn't give it to Rangers though. Because that opens up a whole new spectrum of potential builds.

Yeah, favored soul pretty much ruined melee balance along with Frenzied Berserker and Stormlord but those are entirely other topics for another day, haha.

All I know about Frenzied Berserker in NWN 2 was the fight with one was NOT fun.

Yurell wrote:

Godo wrote:

Hey, if your going to be looking at messing with hips how about at the same time do Bignies as well, how about make Bigbies have a reflex save? Dounds good to me in fixing the Bigbies over powerful uses.

Bigbies is already on the list of things to fix.

I myself, thought the cool-down was a reasonable fix, nothing else is being changed, and if you try to stick to not spamming HIPS more than once in the same round, you don't have anything to worry about.

Bigbies to reflex save doesn't fix it either, that just means instead of STR based characters having the advantage of not being hit by Forceful, only DEX based would have a real advantage to it. It's the same problem shifted to another direction.

Tacka wrote:

*shrug*

Nerf buffer mages as well, since we're making a list of all classes who people find overpower for one reason or another.

AAs too, they get too way more AB then they need.

And Dwarven defenders, too much meaty HP on those.

Don't forget of Pale masters, they sure as hell overuse all that extra AC.

And what of... ahhh. Just nerf 'em all while you're at it.

Nerf buffer mages and have even less help when partying? Yeah, mages are powerful, they can Solo. But the way you specifically put "nerf buffer mages" makes it sound as though you aren't for mages who party while hunting. I'd love for every party my Meleers get into to have a buffer mage, myself.

AA's may have great AB, but they can't Solo very well, they are good for partying, though. Nerf their AB, they just become less potent in what is trying to be encouraged on Amia, parties > Solo'ing.

Yeah, PM's get alot of AC. What's to say they aren't in discussion? Alot of people seem to assume, just becaause something hasn't been announced, or ebcause they haven't seen anything on it that things aren't being looked at/changed/balanced.

I myself don't particularly like PM, I believe that is down to the amount of people I see take it with DEV, who alot of the time seem very PvP-hungry, not all though, there is a very small minority of people with that mix who I never actually seen PvP.

My point is, you (you in a general sense, not you directly), need to be more reasonable over things like this, just because a small change is happening to a Class, which I assume a character of yours has otherwise you wouldn't seem so worked up about this -- it doesn't mean every other class should be changed just because the one you happen to like is getting changed, and only slightly at that.

Think about it, HIPs gets a massive buff on Amia, the True Seeing spell can not see through it, only the Bioware Default can, which is on Umber-hulks, Dragon's, Psuedo's etc.. I'm grateful that people can hide without the fear of a mage casting a single spell to see them.

Like stated earlier in the thread, there is a rule that you have to wait one whole round before re-activating stealth if you have HIPS, it is not a nerf to add the cool-down timer, just a mechanical way to enforce that rule.

I do myself have an SD who is one of my favorite characters, too, incase anyone was thinking I am just saying it is not big deal for that change to happen to SD's, just becuase I don't have one.

Godo wrote:

You all are talking about power builds here. Is Amia a power build server or a RP server?

Uh, not sure if you are refering to me at all with this but, that AC what I shown is with my first sneak/DEX based character -ever-, I have never had a sneak/Dex'er before that, not even offline.

I had no idea what I was doing when I was building him, not sure on the feats to take, didn't know how essential Blindfight was for a sneak, I didn't even understand Crit Ranges. I've never De-lvl'd/Self-rebuilt/rebuilt him to a stronger build, either.

His classes were all taken with the RP of the character in mind.

The Rogue, because he's sneaky (Obviously), the fighter to show that he has capabilities of fighting head-on if needed, without hiding, the ten SD to show that he is wanting to achieve the title master SD(I'm even considering rebuilding to 10/20 Rogue/SD to litterally be a Master SD).

There's more to his class layout than that, though, but I'll leave it at that.

Anubis wrote:

Nerf buffer mages and have even less help when partying? Yeah, mages are powerful, they can Solo. But the way you specifically put "nerf buffer mages" makes it sound as though you aren't for mages who party while hunting. I'd love for every party my Meleers get into to have a buffer mage, myself.

AA's may have great AB, but they can't Solo very well, they are good for partying, though. Nerf their AB, they just become less potent in what is trying to be encouraged on Amia, parties > Soloing.

Yeah, PM's get alot of AC. What's to say they aren't in discussion? Alot of people seem to assume, just because something hasn't been announced, or because they haven't seen anything on it that things aren't being looked at/changed/balanced.

I myself don't particularly like PM, I believe that is down to the amount of people I see take it with DEV, who alot of the time seem very PvP-hungry, not all though, there is a very small minority of people with that mix who I never actually seen PvP.

My point is, you (you in a general sense, not you directly), need to be more reasonable over things like this, just because a small change is happening to a Class, which I assume a character of yours has otherwise you wouldn't seem so worked up about this -- it doesn't mean every other class should be changed just because the one you happen to like is getting changed, and only slightly at that.

Think about it, HIPs gets a massive buff on Amia, the True Seeing spell can not see through it, only the Bioware Default can, which is on Umber-hulks, Dragon's, Psuedo's etc.. I'm grateful that people can hide without the fear of a mage casting a single spell to see them.

Like stated earlier in the thread, there is a rule that you have to wait one whole round before re-activating stealth if you have HIPS, it is not a nerf to add the cool-down timer, just a mechanical way to enforce that rule.

I do myself have an SD who is one of my favourite characters, too, in case anyone was thinking I am just saying it is not big deal for that change to happen to SD's, just because I don't have one.

That was meant to be a joke, a mocking of the way people find classes overpowered. Classes with abilities not beatable by your average, generic build who was too damn lazy to invest into more AC/AB/Saves/Spot skills/etc. You name it.

As for the mages, their buffs are not to be touched, as those are made for party PvM. Rather tune down the meat shields called summons. A mage with Dominate monster (or Control undead if you prefer Coven Leaders), epic mummy/dragon and a panther can solo just about anything. Apart for beholders and Actand.
Get rid of the summons and Presto! Mages cannot solo and are now more dependant on their party mates.

Keep on topic guys. This isn't about mages or other overpowered stuff. Hell it's not even about the assassin thing. It's about HIPS.

KTHXBYE

Ah, right. I see.

But, that specific part of the post (even though it is a reply to your quote), is aimed to people in general. Alot of people do seem to call for a nerf on all/other classes, when a class they don't want changed does/is.

The removal of Summons is a good point. It is advantageous in the way of enforcing more partying, but at the same time, Summons can and are used for partying and/or RP. Especially for RP, now that the f_voice S/F/C was added.

Edit: I know! My post was supporting the change, for the addition of the cool-down timer.

And yeah, I agree Yurell, What I ment was, it would encourage partying more, but I myself wouldn't be in favor of Summons to be fully removed, if I was asked/got to vote. I often can't find parties (even as my mages) and end up Soloing, unfortunately.

Anubis wrote:

The removal of Summons is a good point. It is advantageous in the way of enforcing more partying, but at the same time, Summons can and are used for partying and/or RP. Especially for RP, now that the f_voice S/F/C was added.

I think it's an awful idea. It's hard enough to find a party without making it impossible to go out alone unless you're high level.

Yurell wrote:

Anubis wrote:

The removal of Summons is a good point. It is advantageous in the way of enforcing more partying, but at the same time, Summons can and are used for partying and/or RP. Especially for RP, now that the f_voice S/F/C was added.

I think it's an awful idea. It's hard enough to find a party without making it impossible to go out alone unless you're high level.

But but... some other classes can't go out alone(solo). There must be equality!

Tacka wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Anubis wrote:

The removal of Summons is a good point. It is advantageous in the way of enforcing more partying, but at the same time, Summons can and are used for partying and/or RP. Especially for RP, now that the f_voice S/F/C was added.

I think it's an awful idea. It's hard enough to find a party without making it impossible to go out alone unless you're high level.

But but... some other classes can't go out alone(solo). There must be equality!

All classes can go out alone. I've seen them do it, and the game is fairly well balanced early on. They will have varying degrees of success, but they can all do it, without cheese or powerbuilding. Making it impossible for low-level characters is not the way to go

Yurell wrote:

All classes can go out alone. I've seen them do it, and the game is fairly well balanced early on. They will have varying degrees of success, but they can all do it, without cheese or powerbuilding. Making it impossible for low-level characters is not the way to go

Why make it impossible? I suggested to for the summons to get tuned down, not removed at all. They should be an asset to a party, not a replacement for one. Besides, early on, a slightly buffed up familiar can do wonders.

Tacka wrote:

Yurell wrote:

All classes can go out alone. I've seen them do it, and the game is fairly well balanced early on. They will have varying degrees of success, but they can all do it, without cheese or powerbuilding. Making it impossible for low-level characters is not the way to go

Why make it impossible? I suggested to for the summons to get tuned down, not removed at all. They should be an asset to a party, not a replacement for one. Besides, early on, a slightly buffed up familiar can do wonders.

I don't disagree that they should be tuned down, I disagree with that which I quoted:

Anubis wrote:

The removal of Summons is a good point. It is advantageous in the way of enforcing more partying, but at the same time, Summons can and are used for partying and/or RP. Especially for RP, now that the f_voice S/F/C was added.

Yurell wrote:

All classes can go out alone. I've seen them do it, and the game is fairly well balanced early on. They will have varying degrees of success, but they can all do it, without cheese or powerbuilding. Making it impossible for low-level characters is not the way to go

Of course all classes can do it at the early/mid levels (the old shifter was more of a challenge). Thats because its not really your class doing it at all. Its summons (VII or I, familiars, animal companions); unlimited use rod of frost; Bulls Might/Endurance etc at caster level (10); flame weapon scrolls (17); misty potions; lesser mind blank potions; shield broaches; stock piles of heal potions; negative energy potions; haste potions that can be downed like fizzy pop; +3 towershields being sold in Rauthym; +12 AE rings, rings of Ram etc or whatever other exploit you can think of. This is by no means an exhaustive list but there are just too many ways to remove any challenge from the module PVM. Probably why PVP is the main focus these days. Its the only real challenge left. Still, these items are good enought to be loot or even boss treasure in its own right. At least with a party you can RP being afraid of the ettin who really just hits like a girl...a little girl...or the Trogs who are rendered powerless in the face of a misty potion. We ALL know the crutches, just no one wants to be the first to address them.

As for summons, they just represent yet another crutch mages and clerics can use to further there soloing potential. I used such crutches till i realised I was spoiling my enjoyment of amia by doing so. We wouldnt want to weaken summons as that would be no fun for anyone. Regardless, although the summons can be used for RP but i see no reason why their durations cannot all be slashed in half.

Tacka wrote:

As for the mages, their buffs are not to be touched, as those are made for party PvM.

These buffs (most, not all) could all stand to do with reductions in their duration. Clerics should not be able to extend divine power to 6 turns for example and thus, have a better AB than an actual fighter for an entire rest period.

Nonetheless, at this late stage of amias development, it would likely do more harm than good removing said crutches. Making it unbelievably unwise for PCs to solo at low or high levels should be the aim. However, this is all a moot if players enjoy mindlessly running through critters with ease.

Anyway, on topic: HiPS could use the fix/nerf/whatever you want to call it. Personally, its implemention is nwn is currently awful.

not sure if this has been said yet
but my shadowdancer merum jsut loved to pop in and out of shadowdancing to leave people with a question mark above there head
if there is a duriation put on.. (i didnt have enough time to read all the posts as i have to get someplaces) then she cant really do that anymore
id say after the first attack of a round you get hide and movesilenty debuffs for the rest of the round
that is a nerf that still leaves them in hte open but makes it RP friendly as well well i g2g hope this hasnt been said yet

We're looking at fixing this. end of story, end of topic.

HiPS stuff

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