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TormakSaber wrote:

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but I see no reason to gimp summons for the sake we want PC's to feel more special.

I do. Because the PCs ARE special. Because they're the players and this is multiplayer. That's why they're the PCs and we call the entire rest of the world "NPCs".

Well my response would be the PC's are still special because they summon powerful things, of equal, greater, or less power. You're not protecting anyone's feelings or sense of importance just by making it so their summons are never as powerful as them. In fact, you're kinda hampering it if the person is based around summoning. Make what works with the server and is as lore-accurate as possible, not what sounds good and strokes PC's egos. If that's more powerful or less powerful than they are right now, I could care less, personally.

My observation is that they're fine. They're extremely useful in PvM throughout, but not a gauranteed victory in 1-on-1 PvP if you use your head. It's a defining feature of both the druid and ranger class. And the same way you might not attack head-on a mage at ranged distance with all his magics, familiar and summons, the same way you might not attack head-on a style of warrior that has nature-based body-guard.

ainjyll wrote:

An animal companion should be at least as strong as whatever you can summon of that level. While your CL is still able to only cast Summon I, a druid/ranger's animal companion should be that strong.

Disagree. Animal companions should be X - 1 in terms of power. It is going to eclipse them at later levels ergo it does not need to be more powerful than the summons. For a free, permanent summon at level 1/6 that also occupies the animal companion slot and not the summon slot and can be healed to full health out of combat, thats more than good enough.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

ainjyll wrote:

An animal companion should be at least as strong as whatever you can summon of that level. While your CL is still able to only cast Summon I, a druid/ranger's animal companion should be that strong.

Disagree. Animal companions should be X - 1 in terms of power. It is going to eclipse them at later levels ergo it does not need to be more powerful than the summons. For a free, permanent summon at level 1/6 that also occupies the animal companion slot and not the summon slot and can be healed to full health out of combat, thats more than good enough.

I disagree. A level 30 summon that you can only summon once per rest break should not be as weak as a Summon IX (I think that's what you're trying to say by X - 1), and the ability to heal becomes pretty useless if they are utterly torn apart in the combat previous. And it's hardly free - 30 ranger or druid is dedication, hells even 28 is, which was pointed out with the DD summon as well. You lose some massive power/cheesebuilding options.

Too much nonsense being posted in regards to ideological utopia. That stuff doesn't work in regards to adjusting/fixing balance. Stick with the reality, and work with that. Regardless of how it "should" be.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, the problem isn't that they're too durable. It's that they hit too hard and accurate.

Indeed.

I already wrote that in the case of the animal companions, they're more so looking at being balanced, than nerfed.

Crap for AC/Damage Reduction/Saves isn't balanced by giving an insane AB.

You lower the AB/Damage, and increase the durability.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I believe in specialization: the boar should be a glass cannon, the bear should be a strong DR/HP tank, the dire wolf a good all-rounder, the panther a nasty flanker with good AC, the hawk with great AC, good AB and poor damage, the spider should have good poisons. I'd give the rat Sneak Attacks and (better?) on-hit Disease along with great saves and good AC, but low HP and damage. The Badger has the rage, which should make it momentarily superior to the Boar/Dire Wolf but overall somewhat weaker. Where that leaves the Wolf, I don't know.

Something along those lines.

Summon I-IX is fine as it is. There are minor tweaks, at best, necessary for those atm.

The summon scrolls should be removed from the shops, however.

EDK is fine as it is. Same with WW and EMD.

Okay to chime in here. The times I play it's damn near impossible to get a party! I play a bard so the only thing I can do is run around areas and be carefull.

Don't get it twisted I am not saying poor bard or whatever. I am just saying that finding a group is not always easy. I must say bmia is the absolute worst for this, so in my opinion saying grab a party is not an excuse for nerfing anything.

I agree that some of these things need fixing, but partying is not always an option..

After starting this post I think I have read some of th nays on the other companions. The big 3 are disspaportionate to the other companions in usefullness. Thanks.

Mr Mago wrote:

Summon I-IX is fine as it is. There are minor tweaks, at best, necessary for those atm. EDK is fine as it is. Same with WW and EMD.

Come to think of it, being able to solo is probably a good thing.

Mr Mago wrote:

I already wrote that in the case of the animal companions, they're more so looking at being balanced, than nerfed.

Crap for AC/Damage Reduction/Saves isn't balanced by giving an insane AB.

You lower the AB/Damage, and increase the durability.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I believe in specialization: the boar should be a glass cannon, the bear should be a strong DR/HP tank, the dire wolf a good all-rounder, the panther a nasty flanker with good AC, the hawk with great AC, good AB and poor damage, the spider should have good poisons. I'd give the rat Sneak Attacks and (better?) on-hit Disease along with great saves and good AC, but low HP and damage. The Badger has the rage, which should make it momentarily superior to the Boar/Dire Wolf but overall somewhat weaker. Where that leaves the Wolf, I don't know.

Something along those lines.

Summon I-IX is fine as it is. There are minor tweaks, at best, necessary for those atm.

The summon scrolls should be removed from the shops, however.

EDK is fine as it is. Same with WW and EMD.

Each Companion should be looked at on an individual basis and have it's Pro's and Con's decided. Upon that information being established, it should be looked at how it stands now. If the numbers fit it's role, then leave it alone. If not, then switch them around so they do.

I agree with the bit about leaving Summon I-IX, EDK, WW and EMD alone (I'd even put DD in here, too).

I do, however, disagree about not selling summons scrolls in shops. How else is a wizard going to get them without taking them with a level? It would only leave finding someone else with the spell and scribe scroll or taking the spell with a level. Perhaps putting them in some special "wizard only" type stores placed in very specific locations throughout Amia? I just think that removing them completely could make life unduly difficult to obtain the spells.

ainjyll wrote:

I do, however, disagree about not selling summons scrolls in shops. How else is a wizard going to get them without taking them with a level? It would only leave finding someone else with the spell and scribe scroll or taking the spell with a level.

You answered your own question.

That's what wizards do. That's why they have scribe scroll.

Got to catch 'em all!

Wizards learn from Wizards. Its cool!

Back when Amia2 was still up there was only two wizards on the entire server. We didn't have all the fancy scrolls and such you lot have at your figuretips here. We formed a bit of a pact to share spells, thus our spell learning went in different directions and we shared the spells, so where still equally powerful.

Thats what Wizard Conclaves are for. Not for enforcing Mystra's shoddy will. Pfft. Thats the Magisters job.

Companions should progress as you gain levels in Druid or Ranger, whatever class it corresponds to. And it does. Certain people are making them out to be these beasts from hell that can kill any other summon out there. That simply isn't true. I've been playing my Druid for nearly three years here and I can tell you that EDK, Mummy Dust, etc. can destroy the Dire Wolf if you don't help it fight.

Also, the idea that you can solo anything on the server as high level Druid with your companion is totally bunk. Sure, Druids are pretty damn good at PvM. hell, maybe even the best at it. But they -can not- solo anything and everything. We still need help going certain places, as we should. If I step foot in the Frozen Wastes alone (w/ my companion and EDK summoned even), I'm dust. I can maybe take out two or three spawns and after that, I'm a red stain on the ice.

Regardless, I do agree that the Brown Bear and Boar are too strong. The Dire Wolf, to a lesser extent, but okay, sure.

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I believe in specialization: the boar should be a glass cannon, the bear should be a strong DR/HP tank, the dire wolf a good all-rounder, the panther a nasty flanker with good AC, the hawk with great AC, good AB and poor damage, the spider should have good poisons. I'd give the rat Sneak Attacks and (better?) on-hit Disease along with great saves and good AC, but low HP and damage. The Badger has the rage, which should make it momentarily superior to the Boar/Dire Wolf but overall somewhat weaker. Where that leaves the Wolf, I don't know.

Agreed with this here. Except the badger and normal wolf should be similar to the hawk, imo. Those are the smaller and more agile of the group. They should be hard to hit.

I agree that some companions need to be made better while certain others need to be brought down a notch or two. I'm against the idea others are trying to pass around that they should be weaker than summons. Summoning is the Druids strong point. Especially in NWN. Druids don't need crippling. If anything, the purer builds need love. But I digress, that's another topic altogether.

The wolf seems to be the fear guy. But since Amia's monsters have obscene saves to prevent abusing other abilities, it kinda fails...

I see a wolf as being intmeidating and stealthy. A hunter through and through.

The only other suggestion would be that howl instead summons a temporary ally, meaning you get two wolves instead of one for a time. Perhaps the higher the wolves level the more allies it could have or the more powerful that ally becomes. *Shrugs*.

Wolf's howl should be changed to a bane effect to represent unsettling/shaken foes rather than fear. The howl is not magical after all...

though I could be mistaken.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

Wolf's howl should be changed to a bane effect to represent unsettling/shaken foes rather than fear. The howl is not magical after all...

though I could be mistaken.

Wolfs howl should be changed to a party buff IMHO in keeping with the: "Specialist task" thing. +1 AB +1 damage +1 AC every seven levels or so. Keep its AB low, buff its AC a bit. Would open up the option for "Meleeist" druids aswell i guess.

Why would a wolfs howl make you harder to hit? Perhaps the howl could do that to your enemies. That'd make more sense. Its not bardsong.

But it could be like a bard's curse song, no? Making it -1 to several of your opponents stats per x levels of the wolf?

I've actually seen games use a wolves howl in a musical fashion. I point out Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess. A Wolves howl can be moral rising for its allies, and devestating for its foes.

As to the question "why would a wolves howl make you harder to hit?", I asked a counter question. "Why would a bards song make you harder to hit?".

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I've actually seen games use a wolves howl in a musical fashion. I point out Legend of Zelda Twilight Princess. A Wolves howl can be moral rising for its allies, and devestating for its foes.

As to the question "why would a wolves howl make you harder to hit?", I asked a counter question. "Why would a bards song make you harder to hit?".

Bard song weaves some arcane doesn't it?

Wolf's howl is non-magical?

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"Why would a bards song make you harder to hit?".

d20SRD wrote:

Inspire Heroics (Su)

A bard of 15th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire tremendous heroism in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet. For every three bard levels the character attains beyond 15th, he can inspire heroics in one additional creature. To inspire heroics, a bard must sing and an ally must hear the bard sing for a full round. A creature so inspired gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for up to 5 rounds thereafter. Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability.

Which is kind of my point.

If a Ranger/Druid builds up such a rapport with an animal I can't help but assume that if the Wolfs Howl can make an enemy fear it then its Howl/Song would inspire the imprinted druid or Ranger and their party. Thats just my opinion. As it stands theirs no way to make that Fear Howl useful for anything. Its actually an annoyance that makes people refrain from taking that pet.

Its homebrew sure but its not that much of a stretch. You are a frigging druid/ranger after all and this is the sort of thing that could/would inspire you.

That being said I do not approve of pet changes unless all the ones i've mentioned (DD, Pseudo, Eyeball) are fixed at the -same- time. Batch fixes are easier to retool in my opinion.

Yeah, the howls is -very- annoying. All it does it keep the wolf from attacking right away because it's busy being stuck in "I'm about to howl!" or "I just finished howling, cool huh?!?!" mode for like 3-4 seconds. I know because I had that companion on my Ranger.

MoshingChris wrote:

That being said I do not approve of pet changes unless all the ones i've mentioned (DD, Pseudo, Eyeball) are fixed at the -same- time. Batch fixes are easier to retool in my opinion.

Agreed.

ainjyll wrote:

But it could be like a bard's curse song, no? Making it -1 to several of your opponents stats per x levels of the wolf?

Now this I dont mind...-1 to ab and saves per x/level. Depending on the duration of the effect, it could also be saveless? As far as I know, curse song is just pwnage unless your deaf? Still perhaps it should have a save...

Would there be anyway to make it so that the wolf used the ability every 3 - 5 minutes or so instead of just one time (this is assuming the ability is made useful).

No save on bard song its. Already there deafness.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

"Why would a bards song make you harder to hit?".

d20SRD wrote:

Inspire Heroics (Su)

A bard of 15th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use music or poetics to inspire tremendous heroism in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet. For every three bard levels the character attains beyond 15th, he can inspire heroics in one additional creature. To inspire heroics, a bard must sing and an ally must hear the bard sing for a full round. A creature so inspired gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for up to 5 rounds thereafter. Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability.

Okay so you got me there, very good. But who cares really? I mean, you use what you got right? Just because the wolf is using bard song doesn't mean it's actually using bard song. Lots of creatures on Amia use feats belonging to other classes to emulate effects, or just make then cool.

I still think bard song is a viable option on the wolf pet. After all, your wolf is certainly more special then the other wolves. It's your companion after all.

It's actually just a plain animal, but yeah.

You cared or I wouldn't have had to clarify. =P

In any case: In my humbledore, a spawn debuff makes more sense than a party buff, given that the wolf is already doing fear. It is a hostile enemy affecting ability and for consistency can probably stay that way.

Meh, sure thing then. So you next argument is how it works. Via an ability modifier, level modifier or what? Does it even get stronger?

Actually my next argument is "I don't think animals need esoteric spell like abilities. I think these are best saved for familairs for whom they are more fitting because they are magical cretaures, and animal companions are best left as mundane tanks because they're animals.

Can you think of anything more fitting for the wolf companion then? I can't. Remembering that the dire wolf already fills the STR maxer.

And I'm completely 100% against giving mage famailars any kind of benefit, they don't need the extra help.

Actually, the Dire Wolf is a dexterity companion, not strength.

I agree, curse song would be more fitting than bard song. It can be explained away as a more natural fear. You're not as on your toes as you would normally be. That's a better fear effect coming from a natural wolf than the weird fear spell burst. Even if it doesn't work.

SRD:

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Shaken

A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.

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Frightened

A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Frightened is like shaken, except that the creature must flee if possible. Panicked is a more extreme state of fear

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Panicked

A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

I think the issue is more not the stats themselves, because fear is of great aid, but rather the lack of it working due to monsters with silly high save rolls.

Thus the suggestion of a curse song effect or a bard song effect, so it would actually work.

Well personally I think the Wolf if you want to keep it to "Tanking" should have equalised Str/Dex for AC/AB and Damage.

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