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Last edited by Mr Mago on Sun, Dec 27 2009, 20:27 PM, edited 1 time in total.

maglorine wrote:

Less than 20 Ranger levels? Then ignoring the companion is correct for purposes of determining the builds strength. It's a nonfactor in both PvP and PVM, no matter which type is chosen at that number of Ranger levels.

No, it's not correct. I just said that the most powerful powerbuilds with ranger in them, have less than 20 ranger levels. Doesn't mean that the companion is irrelative. More so, companions/familiars/summons offer a more complex perspective of a characters powerlevel. The PC, by its own, can be credited with a specific powerlevel irrelative of any companion/familiar/summon, yet once those are included, they could or could not be included in determining the powerlevel of the character, pending on how the original build is made and how the character is played.

Either way, no summon/companion/familiar should -ever- exceed the use and power of another average built level 30 PC.

maglorine wrote:

I can post stats on a 23rd level Boar. Both unbuffed and buffed (by the Ranger). It's one of the better ones and you can figure up and down from there.

I'll need to look at all the companions progressions again but toning them down below 25th level combined with an increase above 25th could be a nice suggestion.

Would be awesome if you could look it up.

maglorine wrote:

If something could be done about the preposterous ease with which these companions are dismissed it would be nice too. I mean, it's not an extraplanar creature, nor is it summoned by the power of magic, it's a "willing companion", how can it be dismissed and banished back from where it came? Seems odd to me, but I'm no lore expert. I mean it's like "my friend from Wharftown came on this adventure with me, we're close and tight friends and he's a expert fighter, but we went up to the Spires together and some Witch Banished him back to Wharftown and left me all alone"

To be honest, I don't think they should be banishable either. But for that to happen, they need to be properly balanced first.

MoshingChris wrote:

I would say trading off 10 percent of the maximum possible AB (by reducting the Str score or decreasing the bonus) and adding Immunity: Dismissal, Immunity: Banishment is fair enough.

Yup. Could be enough. What are the saves on the companions?

And, what's the HP + saves on the DD?

What amuses me is that this thread is currently comparing boars not to just any fighter, but to the epitome of the fighter, the Weapon Master...the creme de la creme of fighers. Its not even doing too badly against the weapon master either...

That in itself is enough to suggest that something needs to be done.

The Boar needs to have its AB lowered. A summon with 43 AB is compareable to an average meleer. Not OK.

The Boar also needs to have its AC upped a bit, and possible some resistance added to it, etc.

But that's left to be determined. Still hoping and waiting for detailed responses in regards to the other druid/ranger companions.

Quote:

More like a chance to slide in a possible "balancing" on summons that they either like a lot or don't like at all.

This is a bit of a below the belt ad hominem argument. Despite Uce's good work the summons still are not well balanced. On average they last too long, certain ''speciality summons'' (eg the EDK) are not special, and they actually in some cases get relatively weaker as you go up levels, eg fey knight and ancient dire bear. Relative to the level obtained certain low level summons can remain untouched against spawns of their level eg celestial dog, reindeer.

Personally I feel the animal companions, familiars, summon creature/animal I -IX and ''special'' summons all could do with further rebalancing.

Animal Companions:
I see animal companions as being unbanishable, permanent but not particularly amazing either in the damage or defence areas. Within this archetype variation is still possible eg high AC hawk, high damage/Hp bear etc.

Familiars:
These I envision as being nearly purely RP. It *should not* be possible to solo at all with these. They should be very subpar in all fields except for a few speciality tricks (Fey/Imp invisibility, eyeball rays etc)and even these should still be subpar. The Fey *should not* be a substitute for a rogue!

Summon I - IX:
These should actually be slightly stronger than animal companions and come with a myriad of different abilities and archetypes. This would be balanced by being banishable and with a shorter duration. Each one should have a field of expertise or be a generalist. For example the Juggernaut ought to be pure defence, High Hp, DR and AC but below average AB, Damage with few abilites instead of just being subpar at present. Whereas the Effigy in contrast is pure ranged DPS with more castings of its flame powers.

''Speciality'' summons:
This category includes EDK, Gate, Animate dead line, Planar binding lines, etc. These should, pound for pound, be the best summons, and on average have the shortest durations.

The undead summons should have undead traits and immunities but relatively lower AB and damage. The ubiquitous wraiths should be more effective with there status effecting auras and touches but with lower damage. They should provide traits that cannot be gained with the other lines.

The planar binding summons should be very eclectic and remain diverse with different creatures sporting either high AC, DPS, Hp or many abilities. For example why is the succubus a fighting summon? It should be festooned with charm, dominate, holding effects with a ver poor offensive and defensive presence. The Erinyes in contrast can remain a fighting summon.

Finally EDK, Winterwight and Gate. These should be the top dogs. Like the above poster said, the EDK and WW due to the feat requirement/stringent class requirement and being epic ought to be able to tear stuff up on summoning. They should approach unstoppable against regular spawns and be very useful against bosses. However the durations need to be cut...slashed right down and they should be unbuffable. Summoning these should almost be like detonating a bomb; a bomb that does big damage.
Mummy dust is fine as is...a low DPS, tanking summon (although a duration nerf really would not hurt - having the necro epic feat increase its duration is really not needed).

In conclusion the aim should be that other than the animal companions these summons should not generally last long enough to solo, and almost all of them should not approach a PC in power. The ones that do (EDK, WW, Gate) should be saddled with extremely short durations.

Summon power should be inversely proportional to duration

Respect this core principle and steps can be taken towards better overall balance.

Mr T

Mr T wrote:

<snip>

It seems that all your ideas for "balancing" summons revolves around the ability to solo and in particular making that act more difficult. This, on Amia, won't work. In some timezones people are left with very few people to party with. There may be a time where there are 15 people on the server and for whatever reason 1 out of that 15 is not able to party with anyone else on at that time. "Balancing" the summons as you've proposed would make solo'ing almost impossible for a low level wiz/sorc/druid who happened to play at that time. Sure, Mago or MoshingChris could make one that could whomp through the server easily, but not everybody is a powerbuilder and they're the one's that should be taken into consideration when "balancing" comes into question.

ainjyll wrote:

Quote:

snip

Did you even read what I posted, or even try to understand it? The ''balancing'' as you so condescendingly put it is relative to each summon. If you so desperately want to keep your soloing power then argue for that. It does not however negate the fact that I feel:

'special' summons > summon I - IX > animal companions > familiars.

Additionally you did not even address the core tenet of:

Summon power should be inversely proportional to duration

My post was never really about soloing but since you brought it up; why should summons allow a wiz/sorc to solo? So what if there are less people on amia and *cry* you cannot find a party? The summons *should not* be balanced for soloing, nor should they approach the power of another PC!. Seriously soloing is already too easy on Amia as it is and summons are a big crutch that allow this to remain so. Maybe there are less people on Amia because many of the people left just want to grind and solo their way to 30.

Mr T

Let us not forget that population varies with respect to timezone too. Sometimes there may not be someone in range of you on the entire server. Summons shouldn't be as strong as a PC, though.

Yurell wrote:

Summons shouldn't be as strong as a PC, though.

I disagree. Summoning as a constant theme in fantasy games. And usually the thing you summon ain't just a creampuff you call out to tag along with you.

Perhaps they ought not be as powerful as a buffed PC naturally, but I see no reason to gimp summons for the sake we want PC's to feel more special.

Quote:

Summon power should be inversely proportional to duration

With this, I agree, save a few other factors. Hence, why I've advocated Gate getting a clearer bump up from Summon IX, even if it means a duration decrease.

To get back to druid/ranger summons, I've had limited experience with them in PvP. I've fought along side of a few near-pure rangers and their companion in PvM though, and yes, they seemed on par with a decent PC of the same level. Something which is fine, IMO, so long as it doesn't hugely overshadow the summoner when buffed. Just my limited experience, for whatever worthless two cents it is.

A summon should never be as powerful or more powerful than a PC.

Mr Mago wrote:

A summon should never be as powerful or more powerful than a PC.

"Powerful" is such a qualitative term, though. As powerful as a "powerbuild"? As powerful as an "average" build? What's your basis for this rule of thumb?

Just pick a power level that's still useful in PvP and PvM compared to what's expected at that PC's level, and stick with it, I say. If that's just as powerful or less powerful than the summoner, who cares. As long as the idea works without it being "broken", I fail to see how it matters much that it's on par with Random Build #74.

Average build. Or "standard" build, if you'd be so inclined.

Quote:

but I see no reason to gimp summons for the sake we want PC's to feel more special.

I do. Because the PCs ARE special. Because they're the players and this is multiplayer. That's why they're the PCs and we call the entire rest of the world "NPCs".

I'm going to apologize first for this because it might be seen as slight griping but it's really not. Alot of the reasons that are presented for the companions to be 'balanced' is that they're not supposed to be as powerful as an average build if what I'm reading is correct.

Btw, kudos to those who have made such companions living parts of their RP.

Still. The average build as was indicated by Dark does leave one to ask the question: Isn't this an animal that is use to surviving in the wild/urban areas?

Just like the thread asking why sand minotaurs had such incredibly high amounts of DR, these are animals that have willingly chosen to accompany the ranger or druid. As such haven't they become adept in fighting alongside that person or have been aided with training for such fighting?

People get armor, weapons, cloaks, rings, amulets, helmets, belts and all manner of goody goodies to aid their progress along.

The companions get one more year under their metaphorical belts of training and having survived to grow that much more skilled, stronger or just plain dangerous. Eyes grow sharper, tusks longer, claws bigger, teeth or how to use all of that, more crafty.

Also druids and rangers frequently do travel alone save with their companions. It's not meant to condone 'let us solo now!', just a mention. I can't solo, she dies. Yes I know Amia druid/rangers seem to be a rather social bunch at times, but please hear me out.

It does make sense for a creature that is spending time around someone at least reasonably skilled in fighting/survival to either pick up a few things or get better, accounting for their means to drop most other classes or races cold.

It might not be monk/knight style of regimented training but few would ever say someone with gladiatorial expertise was less capable in battle than a monk. That's kind of one way to look at how the animals train. Live, fight, grow better. They compliment with their strengths what the druid/ranger lacks and vice versa.

Just devil's advocate here for what seems to be mechanics overshadowing the potential RP of a thing IMHO.

It's not being suggested that the animal companions should be rendered useless.

Quote:

A summon should never be as powerful or more powerful than a PC.

In principle Mr Mago I agree with you. However I feel certain summons should approach or even exceed a PC ability to do damage but keeping

[/i]''Summon power should be inversely proportional to duration'' [i]

in mind the duration could be slashed to as little as a flat 1 - 2 turns. These would definately include EDK.

WW is difficult - if players felt its power should equal EDK then a duration nerf is a must. Howver it can always be balanced around either the level of Gate, summon I -IX, or even the animal companions (if all day unbanishable is selected).

Mr T

PS the argument than animal companions deserve to be uber because they are used to fighting is so fundamentally flawed that it does not require examination to refute.

Works great in PvM.

But in PvP... it kind of screws things over.

PvBoss as well.

I'm all for the cutting them back to where the more pure builds get the much better companion. Also, I'm not against knocking the Boar down a notch. That one really is too powerful, imo. A full grown boar kicking a full grown brown bears ass, or even being competition to a brown bear at all, rubs me the wrong way.

Isnt it supposed to be like a dire boar? Picture Boarzilla... Thats how I imagined it. Most wild boar are around 240, I thought dire boars would be pushing 500 or so as well... and Boar are known for their ferocity and tenaciousness. Bears are normally docile. Boars you get anywhere near them and they get pissy. Now if this was grizzly, polar, or kodiak bears yes. The bear should have most hp, and it does. I think that part of the nwn balancing was to give the bear the most hp, the wolf the ac, the boar the ab, etc.

Just saying... male brown bears are about 550 pounds, females 400.

Touché. Under the choices it only says "boar" and not "dire boar", but it actually is a dire boar. But still, they are a bit too strong.

I like this system that Mr T has suggested; designating summons to different categories makes it far easier to balance and as Mr T said, Ruce did some great work but they could still do with some tweaking and further differentiating.

PVBoss well...the old EDK would provide a fairly even match for the FGK if IRC with the FGK winning out more often than not. The balance shifted when buffs were introduced and you could heal potion the EDK. My suggestion would be make it so that the EDK went back to the power it once possessed but dramatically reduce its duration (1turn, maybe 2 turns flat) and make it unaffected by any kind of buff, be it barkskin, bulls, haste, flame weapon or improved invisibility and unable to be healed. That way it is far more easy to balance and you dont have to give it things like power attack as the AI has no idea how to use them effectively. RP reason for them being unbuffable could be something to do with the sheer strength of the magic involved (epic spell). PVP, my barbarian could cut down EDK. Still tweaks would be needed of course.

Another example: I would love if the Juggernaut was given more defence at the expense of its offence for example. I would give it good damage reduction, mediocre AC, elemental resistance 5 or 10 nothing across the board. Make it fit a defined role.

Mummy dust is very well balanced; theres just no reason for it to last hours with the epic necro feats. It would be a perfect example of an all day summon in my opinion.

I think this idea would help to revitalise amia and also add more tactical elements to playing a mage. As with any new system there would be tweaks that needed to be worked out but global rebalancing of the summons would be beneficial.

Why should animal companions be weaker than summons? We are here talking about rather special animals who wander and fight alongside their "masters" for years and years, unlike summons who are a 'one time only' sort of thing. Powerfull in their own right, yes, but with no experience in fighting alongside the one who summoned them.

QPR wrote:

Why should animal companions be weaker than summons? We are here talking about rather special animals who wander and fight alongside their "masters" for years and years, unlike summons who are a 'one time only' sort of thing. Powerfull in their own right, yes, but with no experience in fighting alongside the one who summoned them.

For many reasons but mainly because they are permanent. Summon I - IX already last far too long even at their current power level. Halving their duration would not be absurd in my mind. So many crutches exist in amia which players have become dependent on AND which also facilitate solo-ing. Removing these crutches is a necessity in my opinion.

Quote:

We are here talking about rather special animals who wander and fight alongside their "masters" for years and years, unlike summons who are a 'one time only' sort of thing

That 'special' animal has learnt to fight from a druid/ranger that's your reasoning... :roll:

Look the animal companions should be weaker because if they were rebalanced they would be permanent duration and unbanishable. Additionally I do not envisage nerfing them into the ground but a commensurate loss of pwoer vs summon I - IX is perfectly reasonable if the durations were slashed as proposed.

Mr T

Mr Mago wrote:

A summon should never be as powerful or more powerful than a PC.

They're not. Today.

Some people in this thread seem to think they are, but they aren't.

Just as an example, a pure rogue - standard build nuthin fancy, the same level as my Ranger's Boar could dispatch him in no time flat with ease. Here's some more information about the Boar companion to illuminate the picture a bit more, again at level 23.

Feats:
Toughness

Yes, that's all of them.

Skill points:
Listen 9
Spot 8

Yes that's all of them. No discipline ranks ~at all~. Every other skill is zero. Why? Because they are meant to do *one* thing well, not be as versatile and powerful as a PC. That *one* thing is the one everyone on this thread who is favoring a nerf is talking about.

Rogue
Ring of Ram, KD, *sneakfest*, Repeat as necessary, *Dead Boar*. All you have to do is hit a 33AC. That's not even getting fancy and using *gasp* Darkness for example, or a friggin Dismissal scroll.

Or if you prefer ranged *called shot leg* until it's crawling then *ranged sneak*, Repeat as necessary, *Dead Boar*.

Same story for stronger meleers, you KD the thing into the dirt every round. It CANNOT wear Discipline gear like a PC [another weakness, it can't wear any gear of any kind like a PC], if you hit it, and you will, it will go down, every time. It cannot do the same to you, you don't need to wear discipline gear against it because it has no feats and can't wear a ring.

Of course, if you are an idiot and go strength for strength against something built to do one thing well, and only one thing....well you get hurt.

It's basic, things look strong when you go head to head against their strength, their only strength I might add, without considering all their inherent weaknesses or not knowing about them. In other words, anyone who knows anything about how to fight them, from mages to clerics to bards to rogues to barbarians to fighters to weaponmasters to AA's can eliminate them with ease.

There's alot of focusing in this thread about one aspect of power, the one thing a few of these companions do well - AB/DPS. There's alot more strength in a PC already if you look at ~all~ sources of power.

To Mr T - A summon I-IX is utterly disposable. If it dies you cast again, and again, and again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I've seen PvP fights where participants summoned 8 summons in serial order, when one died, a scroll came out and the next followed. Try that with a companion. Once it's dead from your nerfing, it's dead. Hello waiting for the next rest period. You also need to look at the *Availability* not just the Duration. The Companion is like an Epic Summon in that regard, you get it once per day, if it gets dead, too bad, take a seat in the waiting room. Ever see a scroll of "Animal Companion"? Summon I-IX got dead? No worries buddy, here's a raft full of spell slots and a store full of scrolls, dig in!

They should all be tweaked to be balanced between eachother and the rest of Amian summons.

Every Animal Companion should have a niche in which it excels above the rest. There should be no obvious choice for the best companion.

Animal Companions should be among the best summons available, second only to Winterwight, EDK and perhaps Mummy Dust. (Though by 30, they should probably equal to the epic summons you get much earlier.)

This can only be achieved by working on all of the high-end summons at once.

maglorine wrote:

<snip>

We're (at least I am) talking about PVM. PVM, animal companions are more than equal to many PCs. So much so that I, playing as my druid, have often loathed the addition of party members as the companion is so much more efficienct (and doesnt take a loot share) and this shouldnt be the case. Critters cannot adapt to their strength where PCs can. Ergo you fail. More to the point, an animal companion should not hit as well as a weaponmaster.

Some summons are more powerful than PCs for the record PVM. I've seen it first hand and to top it off, their duration does not reflect their power.

Animal companions should be immune to dismissal, this has been said repeatedly.

What is the ranger doing while you dispatch the boar? Smacking you in the face I bet. Animal companions should certainly not be any stronger in PVP than they are. If my foe was a rogue I wouldnt even send the companion in first rather engage the rogue myself and have it flanking me. Not just about stats but also how you play the game.

EDK is disposable PVP. I dont see your point regarding summon I - IX. PVP they should get beaten; PVM they could do with some rebalancing.

Companion isnt like an epic summon. You can always have one in reserve.

If you dont think the animal companions are too powerful then I respect your point of view. However, in my opinion they are far too strong and I personally can use them to solo my way to epic and I'd like to actually need a party for once.

IronAngel wrote:

Animal Companions should be among the best summons available, second only to Winterwight, EDK and perhaps Mummy Dust. (Though by 30, they should probably equal to the epic summons you get much earlier.)

This can only be achieved by working on all of the high-end summons at once.

If the animal companions last indefinitely (which they do), then they need to be weakened.

PVM they are far better than summon I - IX and even these last too long.

There's no comparison to make for Summon IX: that's a level 17 Summon, whereas the final Animal Companion ought to be balanced for level 30. (Besides, Summon I-IX can be scroll-cast and requires no investment; the animal companion is the defining feature of the two classes.)

That's the thing with epic summons, too: you can get EDK/Mummy Dust at around 23. You will not get the final Animal Companion until 30. That must be kept in mind: every other summon is for earlier levels, and therefore cannot be directly compared to the final Animal Companion. (Barring the 27 Gate and the Winterwight, off the top of my head.)

The point is: we want to keep them beefy. They're supposed to be some of the beefiest summons around, and nothing easily accessible should compare to them. Druids are primarily summoners, as are Pale Masters (and Conjuration ESF + EDK casters). When you play RPGs and want to summon stuff, you pick the druid/ranger. You don't do it so you can sneak and make rain.

The duration is pretty irrelevant: almost every summon lasts "indefinitely" (that is, a rest cycle) by 30. EDK, Mummy Dust and Winterwight certainly do. (Though Gate doesn't.)

The summons last exactly 1 hour per level. Which is not enough at lower levels but gets gradually better the higher the caster is. An 1 hour at level 3 is definitely -NOT- long enough.
I don't say that should be changed, it feels good that the stronger your character becomes the longer he can bind a creature to his will and keep them there.

Also, Animal companions are strong, yes, at least at the lower levels. In the higher levels not so much anymore. At least not as a druid/ranger.
I don't know what other people took but my pure class druid always got her panthers ass handed to her, again, again, again and again when she went through Brogendenstein.

Why? Because the AC of the panther is lower than the average AC of any PC (They are weaker) Sneak attack of the panther caps out at 10d6 (Which is a level 20 rogue who can also get a lot more ac and attacks, sneak attack, minus the stealth, trap setting and recovering plus any lack of sophisticate AI that could tell them what to do).
The only thing that keeps them, barely, alive at lower levels is their DR. But even in the high end zones, hell even before, do the monsters just dash out enough damage to obliterate them easily.

In other words, summons, animal companions and so are worse in planning than a level 6 Barbarian in P&P. They will just charge ahead without any disregard to anything else and potentially even draw in more enemies.
To offset that have they been improved, made tougher, so they don't die instantly.
Seriously, the changes Amia made to the summons and the Animal companions is the only thing worthwhile to even use them.
On the other servers I were were my summons easily outdone by the other PC's but also by the monsters.

But I slip away, my point is that the Companions or summons don't need to be made weaker. More balanced between each other, yes, but not weaker or with a lesser duration.
Even the DD summon for the evil people is not as overpowered anymore as he was. I am sure some of the DM's and players still remember the Original summon that could easily wipe the floor with a powerbuild or two.
It has been changed, made weaker, not as overpowered but still useful.
And that is what the whole summoning thing is about, they should stay useful but a PC can replace them to be more effective.
Lower duration of the spells won't do that.
Weakening the summons won't do that either, they are balanced in that regard since most PC's can replace it and do a better job with just some intelligence on the players side.

Well, the problem isn't that they're too durable. It's that they hit too hard and accurate. Of course your sneak-attack cat dies if you solo with it and let the aggro come its way. As has been pointed out, many of them are glass cannons.

I won't say anything definite, because I don't know their stats. But it doesn't seem like they should be more vulnerable, but rather they shouldn't hit harder than any normal melee build.

Most of them would actually warrant a buff: hawk, wolf, spider and maybe the badger. The panther seems pretty well balanced, IMO. (But again, I don't know the numbers. Just personal experience.) The dire wolf, boar and bear may need to be brought down a notch, particularly in the offensive front. But in return, they should be made undismissable.

IronAngel wrote:

There's no comparison to make for Summon IX: that's a level 17 Summon, whereas the final Animal Companion ought to be balanced for level 30. (Besides, Summon I-IX can be scroll-cast and requires no investment; the animal companion is the defining feature of the two classes.)

That's the thing with epic summons, too: you can get EDK/Mummy Dust at around 23. You will not get the final Animal Companion until 30. That must be kept in mind: every other summon is for earlier levels, and therefore cannot be directly compared to the final Animal Companion. (Barring the 27 Gate and the Winterwight, off the top of my head.)

The point is: we want to keep them beefy. They're supposed to be some of the beefiest summons around, and nothing easily accessible should compare to them. Druids are primarily summoners, as are Pale Masters (and Conjuration ESF + EDK casters). When you play RPGs and want to summon stuff, you pick the druid/ranger. You don't do it so you can sneak and make rain.

The duration is pretty irrelevant: almost every summon lasts "indefinitely" (that is, a rest cycle) by 30. EDK, Mummy Dust and Winterwight certainly do. (Though Gate doesn't.)

I'll take your points on board but I still believe the animal companions are too powerful PVM and allow soloing to 30. I dont understand how a summon can be both permanent and beefy - that is a problem right there. Not saying they should be kittens but their offence needs curbing - no summon should allow you to solo your way through the server IMO. They also require no investment. It has already been established that most rangers take either 21 or 25 levels and druids are nearly invariably near pure-classed. Lets not forget they can be full healed at will out of combat which is a significant boon especially early on.

This is your world. I realise that. Its just my opinion that the duration on summons is far too long and simply exists as yet another crutch to facilitate soloing. Summon I last time i checked lasted hour/CL whereas II - IX lasted turns. In my experience playing a mage, they last to long. It IS enough at lower levels compared to the other spells. One of problems I see with Amia is that summons last so long.

Im not against lowering the AB of the bear and boar, that I can agree to. I am however against the idea that the animal companion should be weaker than summon I-IX. The animal companion, when the ranger/druid is epic, is also an epic creature, and its power should reflect that.

Aye, lower the AB on the strongest ones, and for heavens sake, pump up the AC on all of them so they arent the huge barn doors they are today, and make them immune to the silly dismissal and banishment spells. The Dire Wolf is the only companion today with a half-decent AC at epic levels. The boars AC is just abysmal.

No more AC on all the companions. Only a select few. Instead control the ones with lower AC better.

Well, I believe in specialization: the boar should be a glass cannon, the bear should be a strong DR/HP tank, the dire wolf a good all-rounder, the panther a nasty flanker with good AC, the hawk with great AC, good AB and poor damage, the spider should have good poisons. I'd give the rat Sneak Attacks and (better?) on-hit Disease along with great saves and good AC, but low HP and damage. The Badger has the rage, which should make it momentarily superior to the Boar/Dire Wolf but overall somewhat weaker. Where that leaves the Wolf, I don't know.

You could focus the in the Wolf's howl ability that makes enemies run in fear? That is the only thing I can think of, make it a fear cannon with mildly decent ab/ac and damage.

Seriously I cannot understand how you guys are finding this so difficult to understand...

Summon power should be inversely proportional to duration

If the animal companions are unbanishable and permanent they they ought to be slightly weaker - not so weak as to be lame but merely balanced!

Quote:

To Mr T - A summon I-IX is utterly disposable. If it dies you cast again, and again, and again, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. I've seen PvP fights where participants summoned 8 summons in serial order, when one died, a scroll came out and the next followed. Try that with a companion. Once it's dead from your nerfing, it's dead. Hello waiting for the next rest period. You also need to look at the *Availability* not just the Duration.

And this again is one of the myriad problems with amia - and entwined with all the threads about change and Haks etc. Amia should not primarily be balanced for PvP. But the dirty secret is that PvP is amongst the primary balance conditions. Availability is a massive issue and if the summons were rebalanced as I proposed the availability of summon I - IX would be cut to nearly nil. If you want the scroll, take scribe scroll, or buddy up to someone who has. Finally this is not 'my nerfing' as you so eloquently put it. I have a ranger/rogue and a druid I know the power of the animal companions first hand - and for an all day gun it's simply too high especially for PVM but as your post suggested that isn't your agenda at all. You are merely worried about losing in PVP.

To Iron Angel - by making animal companions weaker (but more internally balanced) it does not mean a level 30 animal companion will lose out to summon IX. It just means that at the level you first get summon IX it ought to be better than the animal companion. However the animal companion will improve all the way to 30. Finally I'm sorry to say it but the idea that an animal companion should be anyway comparable to EDK or WW especially if the durations were slashed is untenable.

I know this idea and post will be shot down/flamed because thats amia. However, if you wanted to encourage partying then changes along these lines need to be strongly considered.

Mr T

Mr T wrote:

Seriously I cannot understand how you guys are finding this so difficult to understand...

Summon power should be inversely proportional to duration

If the animal companions are unbanishable and permanent they they ought to be slightly weaker - not so weak as to be lame but merely balanced!

I understand very well what you're saying, but I also understand you're wrong.

Druids and Rangers are the Summoners and Beastmasters, thematically. Their summons should be better than those of mages and clerics who only happen to summon things as an additional goodie. The inverse proportion of power to duration should not be the same as that of a mage spell. You can argue that Rangers are worth the investment even without the summon, but that's secondary; we're a role-playing server, and we should strive to maintain the theme and flavor of the classes first and foremost, and compromise that only for great balance problems.

Moreover, as I pointed out, this duration business is mostly irrelevant. Every high-power summon, with the sole exception of Gate, will eventually be practically "permanent" in that they last well beyond the rest cycle by 30. Death Domain, EDK, Mummy Dust and Winterwight all last over 20 minutes.

I do think the animal companions need to be balanced, mind. But I also think that the result of this balancing should not be to make their lvl 30 versions on par with normal summons, but rather epic summons. Animal Companion at 17 should be comparable to the summoning spells at 17, Animal Companion at 23 should be comparable to the epic summons at 23, and Animal Companion at 30 should be better (though not necessarily stronger, but considering the buffing/duration boons) than anything you get with less than 30 levels.

To Ironangel:

Quote:

I understand very well what you're saying, but I also understand you're wrong.

Druids and Rangers are the Summoners and Beastmasters, thematically

I respectfully disagree in regards to the ranger (nowhere in the lore are they good summoners) and as to the druid the summoner/beastmaster motif comes from its summon I -IX spells. Seriously look at PnP (admittedly a different beast,) Temple of elemental evil CRPG, etc the summoning is all greater than the animal companion which is a nice permanent/unbanishable help but help nontheless. Additionally , the druids capstone abilities or core themes are still ninth level casting and wildshape.

How is the flavour or the class lost if the animal companion is slightly weaker in return for permanency and being unbanishable? Seriously Iron I respect your views especially as regard the specialisation of the companions but on amia its a simple fact that the animal companions and summons all are either too strong or last too long. Your point re: duration

[/quote]Every high-power summon, with the sole exception of Gate, will eventually be practically "permanent" [quote]

is exactly one of the tings I addressed. I know amia is not my world but this is clearly a problem. These summons should not be permanent (familiars/animal companions exempted) and the durations all need a major overhaul. If my ideas aren't appreciated or they are contrary to the direction you want to take amia thats fine with me. Just be aware that the long duration and high power all facilitate soloing and break the balance of the server in many different ways.

Mr T

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I believe in specialization: the boar should be a glass cannon, the bear should be a strong DR/HP tank, the dire wolf a good all-rounder, the panther a nasty flanker with good AC, the hawk with great AC, good AB and poor damage, the spider should have good poisons. I'd give the rat Sneak Attacks and (better?) on-hit Disease along with great saves and good AC, but low HP and damage. The Badger has the rage, which should make it momentarily superior to the Boar/Dire Wolf but overall somewhat weaker. Where that leaves the Wolf, I don't know.

I agree with this and your earlier post, Iron. Specialization is a good thing here, they are vastly different creatures and should have a niche.

Badger should IMO be a bit like the Hawk - have High AC, High AB, Low Damage (again small), and spam Called Shot Leg as it shreds your shins and instep instead of disarm.

Lower AB on Boar and Bear, benefits for the weaker companions, and elimination of dismissal/banishment vulnerability all sounds reasonable. Some of them are just weaklings, really not useful at all.

Mr T - You don't know me, clearly, so I'll take your response as a reasonable misunderstanding of my position based on my post. I've played my Ranger going on a RL year now. He's level 23. He's engaged in PvP once. Once. I was making a point about disposability, the example of PvP (which I was a spectator to and not involved in) happened to be appropriate but I've played epic mages before too and always - ALWAYS had backup summons memorized, so when the first died as it inevitably does, you summon the next and move on - unfazed. I agree wholly with Iron's post, at 17 it should be equivalent to a level 17 summon, at 30 it should be equivalent to a level 30 summon.

Mr T: You may be right in that summons are too strong across the board.

However, I'm only addressing the relative power, that is, the balance between summons. Without comparing them to PCs or other games, I think Animal Companions should be among the most powerful summons in the game (though not quite the most powerful).

I do agree with you that the strongest companions currently need a nerf, in comparison to other summons (and PCs). Whether all summons across the board should be nerfed in relation to PCs is another matter. If we were to do that, it would have to be done all at once, maintaining the proper relative power of the summons between eachother. So even if we do that, we should first tweak the Animal Companions to be balanced in comparison to other summons, and then nerf every summon equally (by percentage, insofar as that can be calculated). We can't nerf one summon group according to such a standard and let the others be.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

No more AC on all the companions. Only a select few. Instead control the ones with lower AC better.

Have you seen the AC of those things who are not the Dire Wolf? Its on par with a... level 10 fighter. At epic levels. Thus the only thing that saves them is the DR, and my Ranger taking the flak instead, as he, unlike companions, get better gear with levels. Sure, with mages, bards etc you can get their AC super high, but with only the ranger, which it should be balanced for, the AC is abysmal on anything but the Dire Wolf. Sure, you dont need immensly much more AC just so that they have a realistic chance of not getting hit on anything but a 1. Go ahed, take the AB off the worst offenders, but do balance it with their defensive capabilities.

And as Iron, I too believe that especally the Hawk should be an AC powerhouse. Why? Because its a bird.

Furthermore, to Mr T: The animal companion is not a summon, so the argument that animal companions should be poorer than SUmmon Creature is irrelevant. NWN treats it like a summon, sure, but it is more of a henchman.

I just stated that I've played a Druid before, solo, to level 30 easier than any other class. Yes, I've seen the ac. I used a bear and I repeat: learn to play the game and control the companions. I've also got a ranger. Same holds true or god forbid...do what I do and party up.

IMO no more ac. Luckily I'm not balancing so you might get your wish.

Quote:

However, I'm only addressing the relative power, that is, the balance between summons. Without comparing them to PCs or other games, I think Animal Companions should be among the most powerful summons in the game (though not quite the most powerful).

This is my last post on the matter as I feel my position is at total odds to everyone else. I *personally* feel that at a given level X a summon monster, or indeed creature as druids have these spells to, should be stronger than the companion. The summon ought to be a one shot, low duration banishable summoning that helps for a few (note very few) fights then disappears. The companion is a ''regular'' animal (obviously not a typical member of it's species but thats by the by) that is there with you constantly, is unbanishable, can fight, tank whatever depending on its specialisation but less well than summon X (let us say arbitarily level X - 1).

By level 30 the animal companion indeed will have outstriped everything save EDK, WW, Mummy dust, Gate etc. But those spells will be balanced with abysmal durations and as i mentioned earlier in some cases would be unbuffable.

This is all hypothetical discussion so why it is taken so personally I do not understand. My summon changes would all have to be taken in the context of huge duration nerfs, curtailing of UMD scroll availability and the inability of certain summons to be buffed.

My core disagreement with certain of you is the position that the animal companions *have* to be the beefiest summons in the game. If that is what you feel how are they balanced with low duration/poor availability summons i suggested, and where is the justification that they *are* this powerful in the lore(epic companions not withstanding)?

Maglorine - I have no intention to paint anyone in a negative light, nor did i intend to tar you with a pvp brush. I merely found it enlightening that your example was pvp orientated. As an aside did you not find it mildly irritating to witness the summon scroll spam during that pvp fight? Would restriction of those scrolls so the pokemon like ''pocket monster'' characters are limited not be a *good* thing for the server?

I understand the likelihood of my suggested changes being considered let alone implemented are next to nil, but its always better to share a differing view point than follow along blindly with something you disagree with. Finally if the only change to come from this thread is rebalancing of the companions then that is a change that I will whole heartedly support.

Mr T

Mr T wrote:

Maglorine - I have no intention to paint anyone in a negative light, nor did i intend to tar you with a pvp brush. I merely found it enlightening that your example was pvp orientated. As an aside did you not find it mildly irritating to witness the summon scroll spam during that pvp fight? Would restriction of those scrolls so the pokemon like ''pocket monster'' characters are limited not be a *good* thing for the server?

Mr T

I agree with you. Yes. Restricting access to Summon I-IX scrolls would be a good thing overall.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

I just stated that I've played a Druid before, solo, to level 30 easier than any other class. Yes, I've seen the ac. I used a bear and I repeat: learn to play the game and control the companions. I've also got a ranger. Same holds true or god forbid...do what I do and party up.

IMO no more ac. Luckily I'm not balancing so you might get your wish.

I may not be the best one to utilize control over my companion, that is possible, but you damn well be careful to make the assumption that I do not party up with people and see the companion as a solo tool.

I do party up with people, and this is what I notice: The animal companion is a damage cannon, but compared to the AC of, say, summons, is a huge barn door. What saves it is its DR and the fact that it kills things quickly. Thus I se it as fair to give them a puff in AC if they are going to be altered anyway, to give them an reasonable AC compared to other things at their level, just like summons are.

Currently, the companion is a solo tool, end of. Whether you party to me is irrelevant.

Mr T put it beautifully:

Quote:

at a given level X a summon monster, or indeed creature as druids have these spells to, should be stronger than the companion. The summon ought to be a one shot, low duration banishable summoning that helps for a few (note very few) fights then disappears. The companion is a ''regular'' animal (obviously not a typical member of it's species but thats by the by) that is there with you constantly, is unbanishable, can fight, tank whatever depending on its specialisation but less well than summon X (let us say arbitarily level X - 1).

By level 30 the animal companion indeed will have outstriped everything save EDK, WW, Mummy dust, Gate etc. But those spells will be balanced with abysmal durations and as i mentioned earlier in some cases would be unbuffable.

Oh, and the animal companion should be balanced with the druid in mind. The druid is the one with the most buffs for it.

As far as im concerned, no class...be it a wizard, fighter, bard or cleric should be able to solo. Changes should be made across the board not just to classes, but in the availability of certain items, to make partying a nessessity for everyone. This is what the summon changes (I - IX and epic summons) would help facilitate.

Since there are just too many points to quote, I'll skip the quotes and make my points after bringing the contrary points into context.

An animal companion should be at least as strong as whatever you can summon of that level. While your CL is still able to only cast Summon I, a druid/ranger's animal companion should be that strong. Keeping with this theme, once a PC's CL extended beyond the ability to cast Summon IX, their animal companion would be more powerful than those summons, making it more useful. It should also be noted that any change of this type should stop at level 28, to take into account that races with a +2 ECL should still have access to all the rest of the summons that the other races get. Basically, it would be keeping in vein with the progression of the DD summon.

This is not to say that the brown bear or boar shouldn't be looked into a little more and perhaps tweaked a bit here or there, but if that's done, the other companions should be looked at for a little tweaking, as well. Especially in regards to making them more appealing for players to take.

I like Iron's suggestions on the role's of the Companions, save for a few fine points about the boar. Boar's are notoriously hard for hunters to kill. It definitely shouldn't be a glass cannon. If anything it should be the tank of the group. Moderate/lower damage, moderate AB, moderate AC, moderate/higher HP, lots of DR.

Mr T wrote:

By level 30 the animal companion indeed will have outstriped everything save EDK, WW, Mummy dust, Gate etc. But those spells will be balanced with abysmal durations and as i mentioned earlier in some cases would be unbuffable.

The only one there with abysmal duration is gate. The rest last an entire rest period (although not sure about Winter Wight, never had it). And they're all summons available pre-25 ... that's five levels of difference. Akin to comparing Summon Monster V with Summon Monster VIII.

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