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okay i have been reading around here and i've seen that boar,bear,direwolf are very good. What about the other pets at higer levels are they useless or just not as strong as the other three? could someone give the goods on the other pets?

dire rat? eagle? wolf? spider? that ferret thing? wassup with those at the epic/higher levels?

The wolf might be an alternate choice for some, buts its really quite weak, but the rest is rather lacking from what I saw.

They'd be mostly be RP choices as best.
They do need some buffing up, as to make them as good as the rest, or at least their abilities should be made a bit better.

Best DPS=Boar
Best AB=Bear

If your druid/ranger is a tank type, you might want to take panther for 10d6 sneaks.

According the wiki, the animal companions basic stuff increases as follows:

Badger: Con from 11 to 19, increased used of rage
Wolf: Dex from 12 to 31, increased uses of fear howl
Brown Bear: Str from 16 to 35
Hawk: No stat boosts or special ability (except Disarm feat)
Boar: Str from 13 to 32, increased uses of ferocity
Panther: Dex from 19 to 25, sneak and uncanny dodge up to 20 level rogue
Giant Spider: No stat boost, venom bite but no DC increase, more webs but CL capped at 15
Dire Wolf: Dex from 15 to 34
Dire Rat: Dex from 17 to 22, 1d6 sneak, disease bite DC does not increase (bugged)

So...the first thing to do is give some stat boosts to the pets with no boost, like the Hawk and the Giant Spider. The ones with very small boosts, like the Badger, Dire Rat, and Panther should have theirs increased a tad (but not as much as Boar/Bear/Dire Wolf unless these are given something else as well). The ones with special attacks that don't go up, like the spiders lack of DC increase to Venom and Web and the dire rat's sneak attack and disease bite (which was supposed to go up anyway according to Bioware's intention) need to be fixed. The cap on the sneak/uncanny dodge on the panther at 20 should probably go too. The hawk needs to be given Improved Disarm too and maybe something similar as well.

I could easily see the Hawk being an AC-power house. Its a bird after all, should be quite hard to hit by anyone.

To me, the best companions are:

Brown Bear
Boar
Dire Wolf
Panther

In that order. But of course, it depends on what type of character your developing to determine which companion is best suited to you, both RP wise and build wise. I wouldn't pass up the other weaker ones if my characters RP really gravitated toward one of them. My Ranger had the regular wolf. It's not the best, but it's alright. The important part, for me, is that it fit his RP.

I think that the other companions need a bit of love ... I still remember my druid and avoiding all the main choices, only to find out what I had chosen was pretty basic in comparison.

The Boar actually does more damage then the Bear... This is because the boar has only 1 weapon and the bear has multiple.. Magic Fang adn the berry thing and scrolls hence works on all the boars attacks but not on the bears.

The Brown Bear, Boar, Dire Wolf and Panther need to be brought down so they are more level with the other animal companions not the other way round.

Some improvements should also be given to the lesser used companions, particularly the hawk and rat and spider so the animal companions all meet at the middle in terms of power (obviously some would be better in certain situations than others). If it were upto me, the wolfs fear howl would be changed to a bane effect (DC needs to go up with levels too).

I disagree. The other companions should be brought up a bit to make them more appealing. My ranger has the Boar and still dies in PVM all the time. Even in full parties in appropriate CR areas.

How's the badger? I haven't tried him but I'd love to use that little fella.

Doesn't the Brown Bear get like... 50+ AB?

level 25 ranger using only a bulls pot and my own buffs can get the boar with 55ab

The brown bears AB is astronomical. The pets are permahasted so thats two attacks at max AB.

The way it is now it feels like the pets are the heroes and you just tag alone and occasionally pet its head. I would weaken those four and give the others a slight boost. By the way, lots of other classes summons die in PVM/get banished, especially in epic levels. The stronger animal companions can and will carry you from level 1/6 right through to 18ish.

So yes, strengthen the weaker ones but at the same time, reduce the power of the stronger ones.

55 AB is insane.

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

By the way, lots of other classes summons die in PVM/get banished, especially in epic levels.

Lot's of other classes can protect their summons from dismissal. Rangers can't.

It's their only summons. It's their pre epic summons. It's their Epic Summons. They pick carefully because you only get one.

If it gets dismissed, what does the Ranger do? Die perhaps?

If a cleric or wizards or sorcerers summons die they simply cast again from a massive spellbook the next round. Summons are disposable for those classes.

It's not the same so don't make the comparison.

Rangers don't have to die just because they lost their summon.

maglorine wrote:

Blackdragon12121 wrote:

By the way, lots of other classes summons die in PVM/get banished, especially in epic levels.

Lot's of other classes can protect their summons from dismissal. Rangers can't.

It's their only summons. It's their pre epic summons. It's their Epic Summons. They pick carefully because you only get one.

If it gets dismissed, what does the Ranger do? Die perhaps?

If a cleric or wizards or sorcerers summons die they simply cast again from a massive spellbook the next round. Summons are disposable for those classes.

It's not the same so don't make the comparison.

Lots of other classes cannot protect their summons. I can name them if you wish. You can also have an animal companion casting in reserve if you want as well.

55~ab is not ok for a summon. Concerning pre-epic levels, the animal companions are even more powerful relative to creatures you fight.

Please name the other base classes that get one summon per rest period and cannot protect them from dismissal.

Shadowdancer, Blackguard

Well, you did say please.

He also said base. :wink:

*edit edit*

No he didn't <.<

I understand one of the Blackguard summons is quite obscene.

Doesn't really matter. 55+ AB on any summon can't ever be justified.

Mr Mago wrote:

Doesn't really matter. 55+ AB on any summon can't ever be justified.

NERF TIME

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

I understand one of the Blackguard summons is quite obscene.

Yup. That one needs to be revised as well.

It's really a matter of someone just getting around to presenting actual suggestions, I imagine. We don't have Ruce to balance them according to the recently revamped summons, so it doesn't get done due to practical reasons. I doubt many people on the staff think it's all peachy as is.

That said, I do think the Druid/Ranger companions should be the best you can get. It's sort of their thing.

Mr Mago wrote:

Doesn't really matter. 55+ AB on any summon can't ever be justified.

It can.

Those companions are glass cannons. And if you nerf them then you -need- to nerf the pseudodragon and eyeball since the former can kill 90 percent of Amias SD's (given an SD's face tanking damage with full Hide/MS is somewhat akin to a wet tissue) and the latter since it can KD nearly evry epic boss with that stupid Ray.

Oh and given that you know, div might/shields being scaled back the build potential of old ranger and barbarian is going to cop a hefty whack.

Ranger is great against fav. enemies, exceptional w/ the Boar, sucks against everything else. A fighter/wm will 9 times out of 10 beat a Ranger to death very quickly.

Oh and if you want a real comparison.

Good/Neutral DD summon. 52 AB 60+ AC (gotten it to 70~ with a wizard and a bard in party)

How long have i been calling for a nerf to those and not been answered?

Is that 55AB including ferocity? That only lasts a few rounds.

IronAngel wrote:

It's really a matter of someone just getting around to presenting actual suggestions, I imagine. We don't have Ruce to balance them according to the recently revamped summons, so it doesn't get done due to practical reasons. I doubt many people on the staff think it's all peachy as is.

That said, I do think the Druid/Ranger companions should be the best you can get. It's sort of their thing.

Ruce mentioned to me once that he couldn't just go and fiddle the Companion familiars and that its a Disco job.

Which one is the DD summon?

And no, 55+ AB is never justified on a summon. In fact, 50+ AB is never justified on a summon. 45+ AB is pushing it, even.

If they are glass cannons, they need to be compensated properly by balancing that aspect, rather than allow an AB which 98% of the builds on Amia won't ever get close to.

Mr Mago wrote:

Which one is the DD summon?

And no, 55+ AB is never justified on a summon. In fact, 50+ AB is never justified on a summon. 45+ AB is pushing it, even.

If they are glass cannons, they need to be compensated properly by balancing that aspect, rather than allow an AB which 98% of the builds on Amia won't ever get close to.

I'm actuually doubting a Ranger getting those numbers from anything but ferocity and I think a Druid with those numbers is alright given Druids are so far down the build ladder its not funny.

Thats just me though.

DD = Death Domain.

War + Death Domain = the meanest summon Amia if Good Neutral.

Due to the obscene scythe throwing out 250 criticals and such, the fact that the summon can be vestmented, has a high natural AC anyway.

Uce nerfed it twice at me and hends suggestion (it used to have 50 discipline again top that off with a Bard)

The summon is crit and sneak immune, immune to paralysis, immune to negative effects et al. Its basically a Palemaster with a Cannon attached to its arm.

TormakSaber wrote:

*edit edit*

No he didn't <.<

Yeah I did and for a reason. It's a base class not a prestige class thing. That should count for something. Tormie changed it I presume because there aren't any base classes with no way to protect their summons from dismissal. Besides that it's the one class where you can only summon it once per rest period. I don't count druids because they get other summons and can protect all of them to an extent. The more pure druid they are the better they are at protecting them from this. Ranger not at all.

I'm hearing alot of statements in this thread. Not suggestions, arguments, debates. It's "X" is too high, kill it! That's easy.

Moshing is right, they are glass cannons. You don't want that? Suggest something, don't say "Kill the cannon and leave only the glass". You want to trade some AB for more Durability or resistances to Dismissal or whatever? Speak up.

This is THE defining feature of the Ranger Class.

Bane of Enemies is the defining feature of the Ranger. 25 4 1 Ranger is the best of the stick DPS versus fav. enemies you will ever find where 4 is fighter/paladin/cleric.

I have to say though that Amia seemed to be, prior to the current balancing, balanced towards Summon Soloing.

Which was absolutely retarded.

I -do- not think the AB is to high, I do think its way to high if the Dev and DM team are pushing for a more Hardcore feel and party server.

edit: Cursed drink why must you mock me.

One of the only really attractive features to an epic ranger is it's Companion. I don't think any of them should be nerfed, if anything the other Companions should get a boost to be on par with the bear.

God forbid that classes have strengths and weaknesses.
Everyone should be equal, with some classes more equal than others.

Moshing,
Well, it depends on how you define class feature I guess. I see Bane as a selectable feat and not a class feature. You have to choose it, it's not automatically granted by the class (kinda like Epic Dodge vs Sneak dice for Rogues). Secondly I think of defining as in - how would it be if everything else were the same but you removed "x"? I'd say the impact of removing the companion would be more dramatic than removing Bane both from a mechanical/power and RP standpoint. That's just how I judge it's importance, not saying it's the only way of course.

Dramatic - yes Ranger has it's drawbacks like all other classes, I can make a nice list, which is all fine and well. The companion is one of it's balancing strengths of course, that's the point I'm making. Even the companion itself has it's strengths and weaknesses. Some in this thread are focusing on it's strengths and not adequately considering it's weaknesses. It's all part of the package and should be judged as such IMO. Not looking at a specific feature in isolation.

MoshingChris wrote:

Mr Mago wrote:

Which one is the DD summon?

And no, 55+ AB is never justified on a summon. In fact, 50+ AB is never justified on a summon. 45+ AB is pushing it, even.

If they are glass cannons, they need to be compensated properly by balancing that aspect, rather than allow an AB which 98% of the builds on Amia won't ever get close to.

I'm actuually doubting a Ranger getting those numbers from anything but ferocity and I think a Druid with those numbers is alright given Druids are so far down the build ladder its not funny.

Thats just me though.

DD = Death Domain.

War + Death Domain = the meanest summon Amia if Good Neutral.

Due to the obscene scythe throwing out 250 criticals and such, the fact that the summon can be vestmented, has a high natural AC anyway.

Uce nerfed it twice at me and hends suggestion (it used to have 50 discipline again top that off with a Bard)

The summon is crit and sneak immune, immune to paralysis, immune to negative effects et al. Its basically a Palemaster with a Cannon attached to its arm.

Then I join your ranks, and ask for a nerf to the DD.

For the past year, I've made numerous powerbuilds with the use of ranger in them. And I honestly didn't consider the companion -at all- in any of these builds, yet they were still so appealing that I've dreaded the fact that I have yet to make one of them.

Add the companion with 55 AB to it, and you're looking at something that causes me to shiver in the very core of my spine.

I'll come up with a more specific suggestion once I get a more proper understanding of what exactly the current companions have, and when they get it.

You'll most likely be looking at a complete overhaul of -all- the companions (to address the valid concerns of the OT as well), rather than just nerfing AB on those who peak above 50 atm.

It's amazing how everything turns into a nerf discussion... :roll:

Companions str vs weakness summed up: They hit hard, and they die easier than kittens, and can be unsummoned by any char with 10 UMD and one of those pesky dismissal scrolls.

I wouldnt mind if the AB and dmg was lowered if their durability went up, and they did not get dismissed by those silly spells.

Add also that companions and BOE is the only strenghts a Ranger has (aside from being an awesome class to RP that is). Any of its others nice things can be gained by other classes.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

It's amazing how everything turns into a balance discussion... :roll:

Fixed.

QPR wrote:

Companions str vs weakness summed up: They hit hard, and they die easier than kittens, and can be unsummoned by any char with 10 UMD and one of those pesky dismissal scrolls.

I wouldnt mind if the AB and dmg was lowered if their durability went up, and they did not get dismissed by those silly spells.

Add also that companions and BOE is the only strenghts a Ranger has (aside from being an awesome class to RP that is). Any of its others nice things can be gained by other classes.

Favoured enemies can be taken as bonus feats. Hide, MS, Set Trap skill. Dual-wielding. Ranger spells. Full BAB progression.

Rangers aren't as shitty as some people have managed to portray them to be.

Well, Ranger spells are vastly inferior to any other class with spellcasting abilities. Even Blackguards. The change to Blade Thirst is very velcome, and helps alot, but aside from that one, camouflage, One with the Land and Freedo of Movement are the only spells thats worth the points in wisdom.

All the other skills are easy gained by skills dumps as rogue, BAB from fighter etc. Theese are not defining points, only a nice little extras. Rangers are by no means useless without the Amia changes, but rather inferior in most respects without them. If they were changed to reflect the 3.5 rules however, then its a different matter entirely.

Ranger25+ mixed with some other classes are very powerful. My STR ranger and his boar is the single best PvM DPS machine I ever had on Amia.

Mhmm, if you don't want to feel like a tag-along in battle, become a Melee guy compliments your partner in some way. Such as a backstabber, or a two hander. Something to compliment you pets already impressive killing power.

Imma dual wielding hammer guy...I assure you I outdamge pet, Khan is MY sidekick

QPR wrote:

Companions str vs weakness summed up: They hit hard, and they die easier than kittens, and can be unsummoned by any char with 10 UMD and one of those pesky dismissal scrolls.

I wouldnt mind if the AB and dmg was lowered if their durability went up, and they did not get dismissed by those silly spells.

Add also that companions and BOE is the only strenghts a Ranger has (aside from being an awesome class to RP that is). Any of its others nice things can be gained by other classes.

Actually PvM if you take the average physical damage as 30 + 5 elemental your animal companion has twice the hp as shown. They get 15/- physical DR which is fairly huge.

The Bear is tanky as **** and the Bigdawg has AC pouring out its orifice + 15/- physical resistance (modified dex on the bigdawg is 46 after all or an 18 dex mod)

Out of all of the Animal Companions the Bigdawg is the most broken even though its AB isn't as huge it runs from what i recall 50+ AC on a 25 ranger. Thats unhasted, unbarded, unshielded.

Amia allows Cross-classing. So the assumption that "can be gained by other classes" is wrong since it can be gained by a ranger aswell with only five other levels of investment.

See hendracks dual handaxe wielder with Seven attacks smash its way through the Abyss with his porcine friend. We did the Abyss and Manor with haste potions my Cleric and His ranger.

I'm still not sure why you would want to nerf the summon though. Rangers are at the bottom of the PvP list. Dex based rangers even more so. The class is a PvM specialist class regardless of powerbuilding it will remain so. Extra damage in pvp means shit on a server like Amia and +2 AB can be gained just as easily from a WM who also nabs double the criticals.

PvM we rock
PvP we suck

Ask anyone who has done either with Khan and Rikku...
If you are a mage or caster cleric of any sort with my little tandem of damage cannon out the front all you gotta do is buff and try to keep up. In pvp they are seriously get beaten furiously.

Between me and Khan we have 7 (mine) + 4 (his) Attacks... At about 55-53 ab droppig down to low 40s.... So we are a caster's wet dream. In pvp... Its kd or banish the pig, its dead, hit me with any sort of spell, Im dead.

In that light, because they suck at pvp and pvm doesnt effect 'balance' per se... No fair he levels faster then me! *pout* IMHO they should not be changed... But then again Im biased.

My gelfling ranger has a hawk. He is a lovely lovely hawk. Even with his weak disarm feat he is perfectly lovely.

At just shy of 35ab and 150hp along with 5 regen a round, he's not a wimp but he's far from a tank.

The hawk's not only stronger than she is with 25 unbroken dex ranger levels, he will out last her in most places where she routinely gets curb stomped into the ground. He was chosen for the RP, the fact that he turned out to be an amazing companion is secondary really. Wouldn't trade him for any of those listed above since he complements her well.

A ring of magical denial helps against him being banished along with owl's insight or sage potions/scrolls/casts. Upping anything on your companion's Will -HELPS- them resist being sent away after all.

But Mag's is right. Before I dance salty on any map, I summon my hawk, rest to have a spare means to call him and only then do I buff and leap into the fray. That is after having learned that if I didn't, I'd wind up solo in some unhappy places scrambling to survive until I reached a safe place to rest, or just not offering as much damage as I'd like to aid in a party.

Rangers are highly skilled, versatile and amazing classes.

In low magic worlds.

If anything, rangers need love not nerfing. Even if that love is to not nerf their companions.

Actually, Rangers do just fine in PvM and PvP. You just need to know what you're doing. I've seen some well made Rangers stomp the crap out clerics, fights, mages, Druids, shifters, etc.

Druids are the ones that kick ass at PvM and suck at PvP. That is, unless you've mastered how to work a Druid in PvP.

But seriously, we're probably the weakest class in NWN, over all. Without our companion, we're nothing. That's not the case for a Ranger.

druid/ranger pets

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