AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Gauging interest: FORCED PERMA DEATH!!!!!!

chefwudan wrote:

Why not have the PC's age? After a certain point Death comes-a-knocking similar to that of the Sims, but just not NEARLY as quick. Say an Amian lifetime anywhere from 6 months Real Life time to a year depending on race and whatnot.

So be an elf or suffer? Elves live ten times longer than humans, and an order of magnitude is not an insignificant piece of bias.

I think characters aging/dying on a game is a stupid idea. I play this game for fun. I don't play every single day, and I wouldn't want my character to be forced to age.

Characters age, sure, but let the players decide when that happens.

And for permadeath? Horrible notion for a persistant world server. However harsher death penaltys would be good. Maybe make each scroll/spell of Raise Dead burn 10k gold from the person using it?

Permadeath isn't a "horrible notion", really, is a viable avenue for dramatic emphasis.

Wait, what? Perm-Death is a horrible notion for a Persistent World. A server that is made around a world that lives and breaths, create and destroys.

Um...okay...

I still say Indefinent Death is better.

There's no reason to ignore that even when you're really, really "gone" in FR, there's a way to get you back, even if most of your body is held, be it by true ressurection, Wish, or Miracle. Save all but some magical effects, planar attrocities, or Kezef the Chaos Hound, there aren't as many "You are gone and not anyone in this world save Ao can do anything about it" situations to validate permadeath being offered/enacted often at all.

Why bother with permadeath? Doesn't telling someone OoCly pretty much end the RP altogether? I'd much rather see DMs instead of have ask someone permadeath their character use a marker thing that allows it not to be played until they say so. That way, even if it was a horrible omg-where-did-they-go-theres-not-even-a-fingernail-left situation, people IG could still work towards the end of bringing the person back if the situation calls. No gaurantee that they will get them back though, DM can make that as easy or impossibly hard as they want, but that encourages more RP than just cutting it off at "Youre dead forever, your story ends here." Perhaps even have the characters trying to get the dead person back even risk Indefinent Death themselves.

And IC, it also makes sense. Heroes, I mean true heroes of settlements, the people, their masters who gain reputation with NPC's and PC's would likely have a lot of clout for people to want to bring them back or find their long lost body in Indefinent Death. "Hey, our savior's been missing for 2 fortnights now. The clerics say he's no longer in this world. We must find him, and if not revive him, give him a proper burial. He/she would do the same for us!". At least that's my take on it. And again, no gaurantees that anyone will find anything in the course of it. The DM who gave the ID may even hold it nigh-impossible to bring the PC back, but at least ID doesn't discourage people from trying outright like Permadeath does/would.

If there's a soul, a free soul, and the person died not of old ages/natural causes, and the soul wants to come back... somewhere in the wide, wide realms, there's a way, I say.

Dark, that's been the idea from the beginning. Permadeath is just "no, you don't get up again right away". And those PCs who are left behind can do whatever they want to try to bring you back, including True Resurrection or bartering with the gods or offering to take your place in death or whatever dramatic thing they come up with.

Please stop straw manning the permadeath position.

It was my understanding that a dying in a permadeath situation was permanent, both IC and OoC.

If that is not the case, then I've no concerns et al I suppose.

Well, it'd be permanent insofar as you remain dead IC. That is, it's not up to you to decide that you want to bring back your PC now. If you're lucky, good stuff. If nobody cares about you, I guess it sucks to be you.

So, essentially, you're just saying you're disabling the respawn option?

That seems like it would reward more social RP, than Adventure RP.

What kind of RP are we shooting for improving?

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Wait, what? Perm-Death is a horrible notion for a Persistent World. A server that is made around a world that lives and breaths, create and destroys.

Um...okay...

Look at other servers. Some provide not even a fraction of the goodies Amia has to offer, but are at 50/50 players. Why? A dynamic campaign. Where's a beginning, there's an end. Same with chars.

Dwagin wrote:

That seems like it would reward more social RP, than Adventure RP.

This relates to the "I'll never participate in DM events anymore" thing as well.

If permadeath were enabled for PvM and PvP, then only a few people would stick their noses out of doors. But this is off the table. The remaining option is DM events only, and if people choose to avoid them, that's their option. I know that I for one will certainly think harder about what I do in DM events, but will generally rely on the understanding that if I dont go up against incredible odds or do something incredibly stupid, I'll probably live. And, as pointed out by Yoss & Iron earlier on this page, you can still come back if your friends make the effort.

This works for me.

Now lets get back to talking about IC death penalties.

Xaviera wrote:

If permadeath were enabled for PvM and PvP, then only a few people would stick their noses out of doors.

Not true.

Characters don't adventure any less on permadeath servers. They're just a shitload more cautious, taking sensible risks and gathers an appropriate adventuring party with the necessary preparations before heading out.

what could also be intersting is when one dies it leaves a corpse and puts the player in a state of GS, as if their spirit is hovering watching things in an OOC state, instead of sitting their watching that YOU ARE DEAD screen. The corpse could be picked up into ones inventory (at a high weight value and not allow to be put into bags/boxes) to be transported to the proper temple or whatnot. then upon being raised their could be a % roll and or alignment check to grant raises or ressurections.

Mr Mago wrote:

Characters don't adventure any less on permadeath servers. They're just a (censored) more cautious, taking sensible risks and gathers an appropriate adventuring party with the necessary preparations before heading out.

Even better.

chefwudan wrote:

one dies it leaves a corpse and puts the player in a state of GS, as if their spirit is hovering watching things in an OOC state, instead of sitting their watching that YOU ARE DEAD screen. The corpse could be picked up into ones inventory (at a high weight value and not allow to be put into bags/boxes) to be transported to the proper temple or whatnot.

This is what PotM does, and it's not bad. Combine that with appropriate (nasty) death penalties and certain restrictions on when/where/how raises/rezzes can be performed and I'm all for it.

Mind that I still think the first few "deaths" should be "unconscious", and only when the cumulative penalties add up to a bunch should you actually "die" and have to worry about raises and having your body carted to a temple.

The idea sounds good in theory, but I am far too selfish, die far too often in PvE, and far too often find myself without a group to play with.

So... yes, I get all the possible benefits of "perma"death. If it's just lack of a respawn screen, then that would get pretty damn annoying. I don't want to stand around and socialize in Cordor, but it seems the alternatives in a permadeath situation would be almost never getting to actually play, or dying and losing my character forever because he's not all that memorable to other people.

That said, it's not something I'd leave Amia over. It'd just make me even less inclined to log in a lot of the time. Apparently not all players share that sentiment, though, so if the consensus is that it would be a good move for the server, I say go for it.

One way to deal with permadeath is to offer pc's who volunteer for a voluntary permadeath system something they can only get from it. You would choose at character creation or from the NPC in the entry to get it for existing pc's. You can play with or without it. Once you choose there is no going back. Ever.

Something a PC who doesn't volunteer for the permadeath system can't ever get. Ever. Can't be muled. Can't be twinked. Can't be bought. Can't be traded for. Can't pay DC's for. A nice thing, depending how long you live to be able to use it. I have a suggestion for it but I doubt the staff would approve.

Last edited by Xaviera on Sun, Dec 20 2009, 16:20 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Here, with numbers, is my suggestion for death penalties. Exactly what happens when you die (eg. turn into a corpse that has to be carried to a cleric, or remain dead for 5 minutes, or go to the fugue plane) is not addressed - this proposal applies only to the longer-term consequences of dying and kick in only after you have been raised.

:arrow:

Every time you are 'raised', the system checks each of your 6 principal stats and your level and rolls 1d10. On a 1-4, nothing happens. On 5-7, you lose 1 point in the stat or 1 level. On 8-9 you lose 2 points/levels, and on 10 you lose 3. These penalties are checked each time you are raised and are cumulative.

:arrow:

Every hour (though it could be every reset for more 'oomph') the stat is checked, 1d10 is rolled and if the result is less than or equal to the penalty, the penalty is reduced by 1 (eg. if the penalty is -2, a roll of 1 or 2 will reduce it to -1; a roll of 3-10 leaves it unchanged).

Now, the numbers.

First, note that you'll only go to zero in a stat if you are a minmaxed PC with a 6 in something (likely Wis or Cha) AND you get killed twice in one hour AND you roll really badly for the penalties (a 10 on 1d10 twice in a row for that particular stat). So it would be possible to use this as a 'permadeath' option for PvM and/or PvP, where really serious damage to your ass would require a True Res (griefing of course would still have to be screenied, and DMs could reset the penalties at will if desired). Or the system could simply block all reductions below a 3 stat and 3rd level. It might also allow for people to gang up on someone and beat them into the ground, though there would have to be rules for how this could be accomplished as well since it would probably involve keeping the victim around and beating on him while he's helpless.

The penalties, by the way, are carried on an undroppable item in your inventory and are essentially just the equivalent of an undead level/stat drain. They are unaffected by Restoration and similar spells, however, though there could be other methods to boost your rate of recovery (regen adds 10% to the recovery roll, or a Restoration lets you make an extra roll, or something). AFAIK, applying penalties this way wouldnt cause you to lose wings or shadowjumps or whatever, though someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Assuming average rolls, stat decreases recover at the following (RL) rate:

-1 = 7 hrs
-2 = 11 hrs
-3 = 13 hrs
-4 = 15 hrs
-5 = 16 hrs

and each additional -1 is an additional RL hour. So even if you lost 9 points (3 deaths within 1 hour and horribly bad penalty rolls) it would still only take 20 hrs (less than 1 RL day) to recover, on average. Much more likely is -3 points, which will recover in only 1/2 RL day. Even if you roll terribly on the recovery checks, you're 95% likely to be back to full health in 3-4 times the periods given above. So at worst a -1 might take a full RL day to recover from and even -9 would take 3 RL days. That's not so bad, is it?

EDIT: Please feel free to check my calculations as it's been a long time since I took Probability. My numbers may be slightly on the low side.

I'd vote FOR permadeath. There are many reasons for this, most of all would be realism.

Murderers would be scared to fail and die. Heroes may not be so fervent in their heroism. Everyone will walk on egg shells concerning offending others(as they should).

Death warrants and prices on heads would mean something. Actions taken would mean something.

As it stands anyone can say and do as they like because there are NO consequences.

Plus griefers and other rule breakers would be outed more often instead of allowed to get away with anything because an offense that can perma a character will be taken seriously.

My only problem is that powerbuilders will rule, because they won't want to die. plus sometimes the DMs make events almost impossible to win, at which point there'd be many permas.

But honestly there should be a real death system where people actually die. If they were't so attached to their pixilated characters they wouldn't mind perma death.

I can already see a growth of Assasin/SD builds on the horizon and spell casters and more GS spells to the spell slots

No, you mean "Clerics and sorcerors".

Geld Yaztran wrote:

I'd vote FOR permadeath. There are many reasons for this, most of all would be realism.

Murderers would be scared to fail and die. Heroes may not be so fervent in their heroism. Everyone will walk on egg shells concerning offending others(as they should).

Death warrants and prices on heads would mean something. Actions taken would mean something.

As it stands anyone can say and do as they like because there are NO consequences.

Plus griefers and other rule breakers would be outed more often instead of allowed to get away with anything because an offense that can perma a character will be taken seriously.

My only problem is that powerbuilders will rule, because they won't want to die. plus sometimes the DMs make events almost impossible to win, at which point there'd be many permas.

But honestly there should be a real death system where people actually die. If they were't so attached to their pixilated characters they wouldn't mind perma death.

There's always the option to surrender, or flee, if the DM event would be to dangerous, or Switch side, etc etc etc.
As in real life - Honor means something, But Life means more. Maybe a brainwashed paladin would charge into the maw of the beast to save his comrades, but i recon the mage backing him up would rather turn heel and run, if he saw the odds overwhelming.

What im trying to say is that you have SUPER Valid points, and i support them all. We want to strive for realism, and implenting permadeath would, In my opinion, enhance that.

Edit: Also, i support Didi's "permadeath light".

You would lose conflict creating characters, the battles of good and evil will be eliminated and more of a social server created. High level characters would rule based on their levels and build. The separation between high and low levels would expand greatly because the low level characters would not be able to climb that ladder especially if the other side of their alignment is higher level and decides to kill them for stepping on their toes. With a perm death system you will indeed lose unique characters that are created to be hated, despised and disliked in the IC way.

I know some of you go strait for the win in any PvP battle but there are some of us who are willing to lose for the sake of the character and RP of that character type. There are allot of players here that also play many different characters, I for one do not and put allot in the development of my characters personality, that takes time and many deaths to develop and perma death would prevent that.

Quote:

With a perm death system you will indeed lose unique characters that are created to be hated, despised and disliked in the IC way.

No it doesn't... well. Correction. It can if your character doesn't have any friends willing t put forth an effort to get you ressurected. Unless you died of old age, death is NEVER permanent. There's always *someway*.

Just like in comic books.

Anyways. I am not arguing for or against permadeath. But there seems to be plenty of unique and developed and max level characters on Ravenloft and Arelith despite the fact that they have permadeath systems. While their exact systems would in all likelyhood not work on Amia it's a pretty big hint that it *can* work.

There may be "less conflict", but each individual conflict becomes much more meangiful to the otherall server story weave.

I never played Ravenloft but on Arelith it is on a voluntary basis with 10 lives and comes with 20 exp gathered every 6 min.to offset the lack of risks those characters take to save those lives. Now if a system like that was in place I do not think anyone would mind, especially the voluntary part.

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

With a perm death system you will indeed lose unique characters that are created to be hated, despised and disliked in the IC way.

There may be "less conflict", but each individual conflict becomes much more meangiful to the otherall server story weave.

This. I can't speak for Arelith, but Ravenloft conflict means a lot more, and you actually think twice before you pick on the big bad giants.

Let us use HP to determine whether or not you die forever! I mean, if you get -100 HP, then I would think your body has been completely obliterated and unable to return to the mortal world.

ShortSlasher wrote:

Let us use HP to determine whether or not you die forever! I mean, if you get -100 HP, then I would think your body has been completely obliterated and unable to return to the mortal world.

That's very friendly for the noob that happens to wander into the Abyss unknowingly... :twisted:

Even if the body is gone it's a realm of magic and deities. One good friend that cares, stack of diamonds and a decent cleric with a True Rez will fix that guy right up :wink:

I think that having perma death may be abused. Say I had a 3rd lvl mage character going through the sewers. You meet a 5th lvl figther character who decides, either through proper rping or just for the hell of it , to kill you in a fight. That's it then back to the drawing board. You have no chance of developing a character.
Losing a lvl when you die seems fairer, as it makes more of a struggle to advance. I don't think perma death would work as some people will power build there characters even more than they already do.
I know a couple of people who can build a character to 30th lvl in no time at all.
Having cleric's being able to raise them would make cleric's a vital part of a party. I suggest If a cleric raises a character, less penatlies occur. As apossed to some one reading it off a scroll and not having the faith to back up the spell.
All in all my vote is against perma death.

Don't worry, perma death kinda got thrown out already. For now, anyway.

Scimiter wrote:

Even if the body is gone it's a realm of magic and deities. One good friend that cares, stack of diamonds and a decent cleric with a True Rez will fix that guy right up :wink:

True Ressurection is asking a lot.

We're just nice on Amia.

And it's better to just go with a Ressurection when you can, in that light, as thats where it works if you have bit of the body still.

Torzeng wrote:

And it's better to just go with a Ressurection when you can, in that light, as thats where it works if you have bit of the body still.

A bit of the body at the time of death, don't forget.

True Ressurection resolves you of that particular.

Regards,

3.5 PHB wrote:

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

Yups. So if you have your arm lopped off and still survive and have the wound treated, and then die in a fight a week later one armed because it was your shield arm that got lopped off, and your body is burned, the remaining shield arm can't be used to raise you since it wasn't attached to you at the time of your death.

This is also why cutting off a finger and giving it to someone to use for ressurections doesn't work. Funfact. Same for hair. Or a tooth.

Note, also, that what some hack writes in a sourcebook about how "true resurrections" function is not necessarily any guarantee that that is how they will function in the reality of the game. You may find yourself with unexpected requirements.

And failures.

Just regarding why we may not be attracting as many new players as we used to - I've played some low level characters lately and it's very hard to find a group, because pretty much everyone else is epic level or max level. Also, there's a lot of that cliquish *pokepokegiggle* nonsense but very little in the way of substantial roleplay, at least in Cordor. And I realize that what constitutes substantial roleplay is subjective, but that's how I'm seeing it.

TormakSaber wrote:

3.5 PHB wrote:

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

Yups. So if you have your arm lopped off and still survive and have the wound treated, and then die in a fight a week later one armed because it was your shield arm that got lopped off, and your body is burned, the remaining shield arm can't be used to raise you since it wasn't attached to you at the time of your death.

This is also why cutting off a finger and giving it to someone to use for ressurections doesn't work. Funfact. Same for hair. Or a tooth.

Fortunately enamel and bone are hard to burn, and so long as they don't scatter the ashes you should be good.

Lesquille wrote:

Just regarding why we may not be attracting as many new players as we used to - I've played some low level characters lately and it's very hard to find a group, because pretty much everyone else is epic level or max level. Also, there's a lot of that cliquish *pokepokegiggle* nonsense but very little in the way of substantial roleplay, at least in Cordor. And I realize that what constitutes substantial roleplay is subjective, but that's how I'm seeing it.

Agreed.

The *pokepokegiggle* nonsense makes me want to retch every time I come into Cordor. No wonder I've made my home point Tarkuul on two different characters already. ;>.>

There is more to cordor than "poke giggle nonsense".

Ran into this today, purely by coincidence.

HUG O' WAR

I will not play at tug o' war.
I'd rather play at hug o' war,
Where everyone hugs
Instead of tugs,
Where everyone giggles
And rolls on the rug,
Where everyone kisses,
And everyone grins,
And everyone cuddles,
And everyone wins.

- Shel Silverstein

Perfect for Cordor, and also goes great with Lally's avatar location "On a rainbow cloud with the rest of the care bears" :wink:

Okay, i'll be honest, im way to lazy to read everyone's post about this subject, so if this idea has come up before im not stealing it, just "great minds think alike"

Okay, Im not really a fan of a forced perma-death because i love the rp that happens with my characters, but mostly it involves my PC "dying" cause they're KO'd. If a scripted Permadeath system is on and i "die" even though im not "Dead" it'll be really bad on my end.

SO! Here's my own thoughts on this issue:

Instead of a Perma-death system, why not make raising harder. Now before any of you scream bloody murder, please let me explain my idea.

Your biggest problem with a permadeath system is the raise dead scrolls. But instead of just shooting them out, why not make them more RP-able.
Instead of a Raise Dead scroll being an instant raise, why not script them to react to the dead ones level. Based off their level it would be harder/easyer to raise them ((the higher level you are the harder it would be to raise you, though NOT IMPOSSIBLE, it might take 5-7 trys before you are alive.))

Mostly this stems from the idea that it'd be easyer to raise a Level 1 character because they're younger and not as likely to die of natural causes ((which is what "death" is, in my opinion))

However, on the flip side, a level 30 character is going to be harder to raise cause they're older and more venerable. Dying is a more likely option for them, then going through the pain and suffering ((real PnP raising causes -1 to lvl and a CON penalty, tell me that isnt suffering)) of being raised from the dead.

Im not going to throw out any real numbers because its more of an general idea then a system that i've worked out myself. However based on others opinions i'd be glad to try and put together a number system that would work well.

That's an idea. Feel free to browse the proposals on death/raise penalties and express any thoughts in the thread specifically for those at: http://www.amiaworld.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=43830

Actually, that sounds like a decent idea to me. Add a high failure chance to raising the dead that increases as the person being raised levels up. Perhaps make it slightly less for resurrection than raise dead. Of course, the availability of raise dead scrolls would need to be decreased for this to have any effect.

I think at level 1 there should be a 50% failure rate, and go up progressively to a 100% failure rate at level 30 -- as surely for such a powerful being to fall would mean they are being the reaches of such "little" prayers. They can be handled instead by that player's friends engaging in plots to revive the dead.

Of course, this means removing the respawn system and, save that system, basically being permadeath.

I rather like it. Nobody is permanently gone, and until higher levels it hardly ever even becomes an issue.

As a interest point why is this thread still going after the idea of forced perma was tossed out five pages ago and a penalty system is being worked on already?

Yes. I guess we should call on Kjetta to request a lock.

Because people keep posting without reading. I'm not locking it because I've considered the responses since page 5 or so very telling.

The idea of forced perma was tossed out by the players who have agreed for it to be tossed out. Other players are still okay with the idea & I don't think anything offical has been said about it being tossed out by the DM's.

The average level on perma-death server is also around level 7.

It is also something a server has to be designed around, it wont work on Amia, and doing so will make ALOT of people quit.

Back when I DMed on Necrosis for NwN2, we developed a system called vitality that let players monitor themselves and instill risk in just about everything.

I want to add this notifier here before people start throwing suggestions or criticisms that aren't warranted.

Our server was designed around this system. We were also in Neverwinter Nights 2; where there were many balance focuses were different. Many of scripts were in place to suppourt this. Monsters would have vitality draining attacks. There would be some places that restored vitality at a x2 Rate, and some items could restore vitality. (As well as DMs could take and give vitality.)

Vitality was on a 100 cap which -could actually be raised- through DM events and the like.

Deaths would net you a 10 Vitality Loss.
Spells would incur vitality loss at this rate;
Level 6; 1 Vitality Loss
Level 7; 2 Vitality Loss
Level 8; 3 Vitality Loss
Level 9; 4 Vitality Loss
Epic; 5 Vitality Loss
:EDIT: Using metamagic on spells (5 extended to 6) would not make it incur a vitality loss.
Until level 5, there would be no vitality loss for death.

Spellcasters were penalized because otherwise they could just burst and never have any risk. A lot of the vitality loss from monsters was designed so there was always risk in fighting, not just by dying. Most of the loss was keyed to fort/will.

Cumulative Penalties;
Less than 75 (Vitality); -1 Saving Throws
Less than 50; -1 Saving Throws (-2)
Less than 25; -1 Saving Throws (-3)
Less than 15; 10% Damage Taken Increase
Less than 10; 10% Movespeed Reduction
0 Vitality; Permadeath

Vitality was restored at 1 per 5 minutes. Healing Huts or designated temple areas would restore 2 per 5 minutes. This created a strange clique of grinders that would always hang out in the temples and huts and the like. But it was a nice option if you had to have vitality back faster.

ouble Edit: Gah; I keep forgetting things. Raise Dead would remove 3 Vitality on Raise and Ressurection just removed 1 on Raise (from the person being raised). Using scrolls didn't invoke vitality loss.
:EDIT: This was also a low magic server. So that's why the penalties were rather low. Even low penalties sucked.

That being said. This is all just a suggestion. Our point was to allow the players to put their own level of risk and involvement in their hands.

Gauging interest: FORCED PERMA DEATH!!!!!!

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