AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Death Penalties (no permadeath talk here!)

IronAngel wrote:

Some ideas:

Regeneration rate of 1 life per week, capped at 5. (Someone thought they wouldn't regenerate until you were down to one, but that's not my intention.)

First death (4 lives left): Random ability penalties for 1 hour (2 hours if scroll, 3 hours if Respawn).
Second death (3 lives left): Increased penalties for 3 hours (6 if scroll, 9 if Respawn).
Third death (2 lives left): Increased penalties for 5 hours (10 if scroll, 15 if Respawn).
Fourth death (1 life left): Increased penalties for 8 hours (16 if scroll, 24 for Respawn).
Fifth death (0 lives left): Increased penalties for 18 hours (36 if scroll, 44 if Respawn).
Sixth death: Increased penalties until at least 1 life regenerates.

So, without the Fugue trip you were suggesting the above. (modified based on later comments). What was your thinking about the ability penalties themselves? I'd suggest no movement penalties until the higher death counts. A single mistake or a lag death shouldn't be crippling.

Just throwing out ideas here:
I think whereas it might be possible to go with random ability penalties (either which abilities are affected or rolling die for the actual effect) it's likely more difficult to explain and keep track of them over time. If you logout with a STR penalty you expect to log back in with a STR penalty and not a CHA penalty for example. Why would one pc get a STR penalty and a different one get a WIS penalty? It also makes it more difficult to ensure that eventually the effects it will have an impact on the pc if they happen to get hit with impacts against dump stats or primary stats.

Seems to me the best option is to go with universal ability penalties that scale linearly based on the number of deaths. You also only have to keep track of one variable per pc (# of deaths) to reapply the penalties on login against their base scores. With movement penalties starting later but also linear.

1st Death = minus 1 to all ability scores
2nd Death = minus 2 to all ability scores
3rd Death = minus 3 to all ability scores, 10 % movement penalty
4th Death = minus 4 to all ability scores, 20% movement penalty
and so on.

As far as mechanics, I'm having trouble understanding how the penalties and time relate to the number of lives.

Simple example:
- You die 4 times in immediate succession on 1/1/2010.
- 4 lives are gone. You have one left.
- You respawn and wait 24 hours - it's now 1/2/2010 and you have waited out your ability penalties. Do you return to a 3 death ability penalty state or a no penalty state? Even if you have to wait thru your 3 death, 2 death, and 1 death penalty times, you still are only waiting until say 1/4/2010. At that point you will still only have 1 life since the regen takes 1 week per life and it's only been 2 days.
- Then you die again on 1/5/2010. You lose your last life. Do you go to the 5th death penalties because you used your last life or do you get your 1st death penalties because you waited out all your times and removed all penalties before dying again?

It's confused me.

I think the problem here is that the permanency of death still isn't achieved, it's roughly as scary as losing XP and respawning in the entry room...

Getting killed remains along the lines of a pulled muscle or something. It isn't even as bad as a broken leg, since you can get back up and walk out after.

Perhaps positive encouragements to prevent grinding and soloing could work better, since in a persistent world environment, certain classic DnD standards just don't work.

I've come up with some ideas regarding the job system, and getting jobs to work together to improve the RP of grinding, turning it into potentially epic questing... this might be better, or good in conjunction with (or 100% useless

) a differing death system. In the atmosphere of a PW server, I find that carrots might work better than sticks.

Mag: Random would be more interesting, I reckon. You might end up with a crippled leg, or alternately a blow to your head has made you amnesic. They are supposed to be IC consequences of severe trauma, after all. If there is considerable difficulty in scripting random penalties, then universal penalties would have to do, but I guess that's up to Disco and Terra.

The number of deaths is not the decisive faction. The number of lives left is.

The penalties are not cumulative: neither the duration nor the effects. Your penalty is gone after the time is up (say, after 5 hours if you have two lives in store). Your next death will inflict the penalty appropriate to the number of lives left. If you still only have two left, the penalty will be of the next step. If you've regenerated one life in the meantime, the penalty will be same as before. If you've regenerated more, it will be less. Dying while previous penalties are still running will simply replace them with the next, more severe, stage and start the timer again. No stacking.

Think of it as a tank of life balls. Forget the number of deaths, if it's confusing you. The only thing that determines your penalty is the number of life balls in your tank upon resurrection. When you're raised, you take away one ball. The balls regenerate over time, and your next penalty will be dependant on how many balls you have upon that resurrection.

That's why I prefer mine to Xavi's, though his is more simple: the penalties don't have to be excessively long, but several deaths over a week ago still affect the penalty for new deaths, unless you've regained your balls. So to speak. Long-term consequences, but less time actually penalized.

Iron, I've come around to your idea of scaling the penalties based on number of lives left. I prefer variable penalties since they make things more interesting (each death will have different effects based on a different mix of stat losses), but it does require a separate variable to keep track of each stat and level as well as at least two time variables (possibly 3, I havent figured it out yet). Maglorine's idea (straight -1 to -4 depending on lives left) only requires 1 variable beside the time counters and so is computationally simpler (= less lag) but harsher because you always get the maximum penalty.

I was just playing with how the coding could work, but I havent yet had enough coffee to be that intelligent.

How would this be seen in character, by NPCs and players for instance?

"We need to rescue Joe from the Cyricists!"
"I can't come, I've only two lives left."
"But Joe only as one left, and he'll have major penalties after they kill him."

Essentially, nothing changes, apart from levelling slows a bit, and rematches don't occur so quickly. Nothing major to encourage good RP, or discourage the bad.

You contradict yourself.

You say nothing changes, but you suggest an enormous change in that very post.

Of course, the appropriate IC argument would be:

"We need to rescue Joe from the Cyricists!"
"I have to stay behind, for I am still dizzy and weakened by my recent grave injuries."
"But Joe will suffer an even worse fate! We must plan carefully, and make sure our operation does not fail."

But the very fact that such hesitation and planning will occur is a change. Previously, they would not have given it a second thought: they won't even have to Respawn after PvP, so what could happen? Let's just go in all guns blazing, and hope to beat them.

I may be missing the point, but I don't see that as a real change. I can't honestly see a few level 30 characters caring if they die and then only have to stay in bed for a few hours if they're horribly murdered. It'll stay the same. They can continue as before.

Basically, the system suggested is like death giving you a hangover. Hangovers have never stopped me drinking.

Spending the night puking up a bottle of tequila has made at least some people swear off it. :wink:

I have to ask:

Iron/Xavi: How often do you adventure these days per week?

Maybe once. I try to put myself into the boots of a more frequent player, though. For me, it makes no difference because if I pay attention and get prepared, I generally don't die much. I only do so because I'm reckless and don't care about caution.

Xaviera wrote:

Spending the night puking up a bottle of tequila has made at least some people swear off it. :wink:

These people are what we commonly call 'liars'.

Last edited by Scimiter on Tue, Dec 22 2009, 19:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.

To quote myself:

Scimiter wrote:

Now to this I have to add that ICly it would make sense that the aid of a healer should shorten the healing time. I'm in no way suggesting that a trip to the Sally Temple be a complete fix but have something there in a NPC perhaps to downgrade to the next lowest timer or something

And I'm not saying that IGT makes more sense. Just pointing out that people have to react to it ICly. *shrugs* The time scale in RLT does make sense when scripting the system but it doesn't mean that you can't take IGT into account when making it or the PC reacting to it.

The first time is the base penalty, which is applied if you're raised by a clerical Raise Dead/Resurrection. Scrolls are double the time, Respawn triple.

The times suggested are pretty arbitrary.

Last edited by Scimiter on Tue, Dec 22 2009, 19:42 PM, edited 1 time in total.

-Nulled-

Well, that argument doesn't really work: we go by speed of plot, and virtually no one considers the game timer IC. Official server timeline is along the lines of 1:1 ratio, if you look at the years. Some people say 1 RL month = 1 IC year. Me, I tend to assume an expedition into the wilderness of Brogendenstein takes about a day. We should consider the duration as it will be percieved by both players and PCs, not according to the silly timer.

The server /really/ runs at:

6 RL minutes = 1 IG hour
3 RL days = 1 IG month
1 RL month = 11 IG months

Day to day while playing I agree with "time moves to plot speed" but hover your mouse over that compass and you find the real time. Each to their own for playing but as I said already this is a system and a system needs solid numbers.

As to starting at a half hour not working, pity for the people that want shorter times but the scale that you have now is fine

The system needs solid numbers, but there's absolutely no reason to prefer the game time over any other arbitrary time. Real time is obviously the most simple.

It's silly to use the game time (which is not IC time) as a justification for the IC duration of these penalties. If it takes you an IC day to recover from a given condition, it should take a day real time; not a day game time, which isn't used as IC time at all.

The penalties should be fairly lengthy, so as to allow for fruitful RP. No "oh my god, I am ruined! Take me to the healers!" and once you get there, you're back to full health.

IronAngel wrote:

The Respawn on spot of death should be removed anyway.

YES!

IronAngel wrote:

Maybe once. I try to put myself into the boots of a more frequent player, though. For me, it makes no difference because if I pay attention and get prepared, I generally don't die much. I only do so because I'm reckless and don't care about caution.

That's a problem though.

There are those of us who would adventure 50+ times per week. That's what you need to keep in mind when balancing a proposed system such as yours, Iron.

I still believe that your penalties are too long, and I'm still worried about potential griefing with these penalties in place.

Well, I'm not at all opposed to tweaks to make it reasonable for everyone.

I do think the penalties should kick in from the first, though. Those people who only die once a month should still experience consequences. I suppose that means, in practice, to make the gradual increase less steep.

IronAngel wrote:

The system needs solid numbers, but there's absolutely no reason to prefer the game time over any other arbitrary time. Real time is obviously the most simple.

It's silly to use the game time (which is not IC time) as a justification for the IC duration of these penalties. If it takes you an IC day to recover from a given condition, it should take a day real time; not a day game time, which isn't used as IC time at all.

The penalties should be fairly lengthy, so as to allow for fruitful RP. No "oh my god, I am ruined! Take me to the healers!" and once you get there, you're back to full health.

To quote myself:

Scimiter wrote:

Now to this I have to add that ICly it would make sense that the aid of a healer should shorten the healing time. I'm in no way suggesting that a trip to the Sally Temple be a complete fix but have something there in a NPC perhaps to downgrade to the next lowest timer or something

And I'm not saying that IGT makes more sense. Just pointing out that people have to react to it ICly. *shrugs* The time scale in RLT does make sense when scripting the system but it doesn't mean that you can't take IGT into account when making it or the PC reacting to it.

Though to play devil's advocate for a moment on that first topic the spell Greater Restoration is practically /made/ to be used on PCs suffering from after death effects. Just food for thought

I'm not sure if it's too late to throw my two cents in, but has anyone considered what a PC might DO in the Fugue Plane?

You're talking about just leaving them there for a set time, or taking out the time limit all together. But when one is given a second chance at life, in D & D lore, it isn't -freely- given.

Why don't we make something a PC has to -do- in the Fugue Plane in order to return to life?

We can keep the ideas of certain status penalties on return, because even with the aid of a cleric, an adventurer's soul returning to their body would be a trying experience. One that most wouldn't recover from quickly.

But, could we add a certain number of quests, depending on alignment, in the Fugue, in order for an daventurer to -earn- their right to live? Nothing terrible, and nothing that will take hours, but something to entertain while the PC is dead.

As was mentioned, we're only been talking about -punishing- those that die, when in fact, death isn't a crime. We can make it just another step in the journey of a developing character, as it could, and should, be.

Focus on making the game -better-, instead of coming up with ways to make it less enjoyable. Death should be an awful thing, but for the character, not the player. It is, after all, a game. The player should still be entertained.

I would suggest setting a time limit to be raised after death, a short one, as the soul wouldn't stick around near the body long. Once the time limit is reached, the PC is automatically transported to the Fugue Plane, where they have the choice of moving on to wherever it is they go, or fighting to go back. Then, once this quest of life is fulfilled, they return with whatever status penalties you think is fair.

There. My two cents.

Not a bad idea Davis but maybe something to add later. One thing at a time as they say.

Two NPCs in the fugue:

The celestial who offers you to return into the material plane without much of a penalty, but you stay rather long in the fugue.

The fiend who offers you to return sooner into the material, but with a heavy pricetag on your soul. -insert all penalties here-

I am quite meh on all those penalties being discussed, but those NPCs could be a nice touch alongside with whatever gets decided.

Quests in the Fugue would become a chore once you've done them a couple times.

That's the thing. There are several forum posts that describe the state of Amia. People seem to think it's getting stale. This is one thing that will bring it back to life, make it enjoyable for new characters, as it's not something often done.

If we only seek to solve the one minute problem, we overlook the bigger picture. We -have- to add these penalties, to keep the game more realistic, but we absolutely have to do it in a way that will attract and keep new players. Otherwise, what is it all for?

We can't assume that we can just add one thing, and expect to fix it better later. We can't assume there will BE a later, if we don't fix things right the first time around.

Though I don't think Amia will ever really die, I do think that we have to consider this from every angle, before making any changes, or we could scare off potential players before they ever get a chance to become addicts like the rest of us!

hendrack wrote:

Two NPCs in the fugue:

The celestial who offers you to return into the material plane without much of a penalty, but you stay rather long in the fugue.

The fiend who offers you to return sooner into the material, but with a heavy pricetag on your soul. -insert all penalties here-

I am quite meh on all those penalties being discussed, but those NPCs could be a nice touch alongside with whatever gets decided.

Quests in the Fugue would become a chore once you've done them a couple times.

Yes, they would! But, they don't need to be set quests, like finding an orc's head every time you make a new character. We can make several, relatively easy ones, depending on alignment. The point is only to make the character think twice before throwing themselves at sixteen giants.

And if a character ends up having done each and every quest in the Fugue, I'd think they would -really- not like to go back.

davis114 wrote:

Focus on making the game -better-, instead of coming up with ways to make it less enjoyable. Death should be an awful thing, but for the character, not the player. It is, after all, a game. The player should still be entertained.

I'm all for that. But there would have to be some kind of lore concerning ways in which PCs can return to life without someone in the mortal realm raising or resurrecting them.

Unless of course it would contradict some established lore.

Yus! We have lore monkeys ready to bounce all over for such things. Hell, I'll bounce with them if it was needed. Bringing the old D & D lore into the concept would be refreshing, especially because of how much we're forced to ignore it on a server of this magnitude.

Selmak wrote:

davis114 wrote:

Focus on making the game -better-, instead of coming up with ways to make it less enjoyable. Death should be an awful thing, but for the character, not the player. It is, after all, a game. The player should still be entertained.

I'm all for that. But there would have to be some kind of lore concerning ways in which PCs can return to life without someone in the mortal realm raising or resurrecting them.

Unless of course it would contradict some established lore.

Near enough impossible. It just doesn't work like that. You can't just come back off your own back in Faerun. You need someone to phone God for you. There have been one or two instances of the dead being brought back by a deity's direct intercession, but these are the sort of events that shake the continent with their magnitude. The sort of things whole campaigns revolve around. It basically contradicts whole swathes of the setting.

There are several types of undead that can be created without direct necromancy, though, but they're uncommon, and would likely be a DC request, is my guess.

A lich, for instance, can never be permanently killed until his phylactery is found and destroyed. They also do not need to be created by another, but by one's self. Ghosts are often dead people with 'unfinished business' and generally cannot permanently die until they are left to rest.

However, everyone playing a lich or ghost would get to the ridiculous stage quite easily.

Since permadeath is not an option, the only thing to do is to ignore the lore. It just doesn't mesh properly.

http://www.engel-cox.org/2002/09/dying-in-faerun.html

It's not enough to just be brought back. A soul has to wish it, more than anything else. And we can make a way for them to prove such a wish.

Some numbers I've been playing with, based on Iron's suggestions, assuming initial L = 5 lives:

1) RL time (minutes) before you go to the Fugue Plane after death (time to raise you on the spot) = L^3

(When you lose your first life, L=4 and you go to the Fugue after 4^3 = 64 min. Lose your last life and L=0, you go there immediately do not pass go do not collect $200)

2) RL time (minutes) you must spend in the Fugue Plane before you can be raised = (5-L)^3

(1^3 = 1 min upon going to the Fugue after losing your first life, 5^3 = 125 min after losing your last life)

3) Penalty applied upon being raised = (5 - L) * ( 1 - (T - R) / ( N * (5 - L)^3) ) where T = current time and R = time at which you were raised (where T > R) and N is some time increment

Note that effects are actually checked whenever the system saves your character (every 10-15 min).

For #1 above, this means that you will only go to the Fugue Plane when the system saves you and the time you've been dead exceeds L^3 minutes. So if you die with 1 life left you'll actually stick around until the next save unless it occurs within 1 minute of your death. Only on losing your last life would you go to the Fugue immediately. If you're going to watch the system save time to somehow metagame when is the 'best' time to die, you're hopeless.

For #2 above, the same applies. Your actual time in the Fugue upon loss of your first life (assuming you lie around for an hour or so waiting to be found) could be as long as 10-15 min. If you lose all of your lives it could be as long as 125 min plus the 10-15 min save cycle.

For #3 above, penalties are assessed based on how many lives you have left when you are raised and how long has passed since you were raised. For all 5 lives lost, penalties are -5 to all stats and level for N * 5^3 = 125N minutes, decreasing by 20% in even time increments (125/5 = 25N min). For 2 lives lost, the penalty would be -2 for N * 2^3 = 8N minutes, decreasing by 50% in even increments (8/2 = 4N min). I added a multiple of N in that formula because 125 minutes seems too little - set N so that the penalty for max lives lost is N * 125 minutes (where N~12 if max penalties should last a RL day). Penalties are recalculated every time the system saves you, so they will drop over time.

Enjoy! :twisted:

Mr Mago wrote:

The most simple solutions are usually the best ones, btw.

Just because you make it more complex, Xaviera, doesn't mean that you're making it better.

Na, I don't like the "celestial offers you life" and "'fiend' offers you life at a heavy cost" thing. Kelemvor would destroy both those clowns for doing such a thing in his realm, I recon. Also, it would get veeeery boring to do the quests, as you said.

If fiends and celestials played any true role while we're there, it should be demons raiding the Fuge, trying to steal souls. If you don't run fast enough, you perma-die! Muahahahaha!!! Okay so that last bit is a joke. But seriously, that would probably be as significant a role one of those beings would play in your time waiting in line. Oh, and the devils trying to trick you into selling your soul to them.

I do agree that the Fuge should be made a little interesting some how. So the questions begin to flow after that...

Does "waiting in line" literally mean that you're in a formed line, waiting? I would think not. I imagine it as a mostly empty space with tons of people, waiting. It's more like they're numbered and waiting for their time to be judged. By that, I don't mean they're walking around with ticket that has a number or a little sticker on their shirt with a "Hi, I'm number __". Kelemvor, Jergal and their servant I imagine have a pretty flawless memory and just know who's next. Especially since Jergal keeps track of who died, when, where and why.

Would the souls be able to interact?

Would Kelemvor's guards interact with souls?

Essentially, what I'm trying to get at is, what do we -really- have to work with here to make it as interesting as possible for people who have died? I Have a pretty good understanding of Kelemvor and Jergal, I'd imagine that the wait is pretty gloomy, doomy, boring and plain. That kinda makes it hard to make it interesting. The only real idea I can think of is a place to gather and pass time. Like, an "Inn", "Pub", etc. but not actually that, obviously.

Another idea, but it would probably take too much time, would be to have souls there that speak to you and tell you about who they are and why they died n' such. A nice time to talk about FR lore. Someone who died during an FR canon event so people learn something about FR while there. Maybe even throw in wild cards that died on Amia that would be hard to find. I dunno. ::shrugs::

Oh, I guess I gave a idea and didn't realize it. Devils trying to get you to sell your soul to them in exchange for X. Many different devils, many different situations and all that. It might be cool.

It is also important to not make leveling and whatnot into a "job". Also what needs to be taken into consideration is if we want to make exhisting people stay or get new people.

Any form of more a strict death system is VERY difficult to iput in on a established server, and generally requires the server to be built around the death system

I think isolation on the fugue plane for a set amount of time based on # of deaths would be an interesting idea.

But at the same time, give the player something to DO on the fugue plane. I'm not sure what exactly... maybe running errands for the spirits, reading up on old Amia history by talking to the spirits of old heroes and/or villains...

Something, ANYTHING other than just sitting there staring at a portal to the material plane that you can't enter for 1-2 hours. As someone stated before, that's equivalent to a short-term ban. And it's a bit harsh. If you give the players something worth DOING on the fugue plane, it would be much more fun.

Maybe even some type of fun PvP for them to do that doesn't affect them at all. Such as they become a wisp or whatever the little glowball spirits are and they just run around on the Fugue plane exploring, communing, growing closer to their chosen deities, anything. Be creative with it and make it not so forboding. What's forcing people into "time-outs" for long periods of time going to do? Force them to log out and not return until their short-term ban is up? Start a new character and run the risk of never returning to the original PC, forever forcing a huge gap between the player-base between the epic 30's and the mid-levels.

It shouldn't be looked at so much as a punishment as an opportunity to improve the experience on Amia...

Last edited by Xaviera on Wed, Dec 23 2009, 3:18 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Mr Mago wrote:

Just because you make it more complex, Xaviera, doesn't mean that you're making it better.

It actually isnt very complex. I'm just taking Iron's proposal and putting some hard numbers to it. Again, I'd prefer variable penalties, but this system only requires 3 numbers - the time you last died, the time you last were raised/respawned, and the number of lives you have left.

Number of lives left upon death > Time before entering Fugue:

4 > 64 min
3 > 27 min
2 > 8 min
1 > 1 min
0 > immediate upon death

This means that you can wait around as a corpse for someone to stumble over you. It also means that your body can be carried to an NPC cleric before you go off to the Fugue Plane, if it's done soon enough after death.

Number of lives left upon death > Max time spent in Fugue plane before you autorespawn:

4 > 1 min
3 > 8 min
2 > 27 min
1 > 64 min
0 > 125 min

You have to spend a certain 'time out' in the Fugue Plane if you've been killed and your pool of lives is depleted. While in the Fugue you can be raised - if not raised before the time elapses you autorespawn at your home bindpoint or perhaps a temple.

Number of lives left upon death > Max penalty upon res/respawn > Max duration of penalty > Approx time increments to decrease penalty by 1 step:

4 > -1 > 1N min > 1N min
3 > -2 > 8N min > 4N min
2 > -3 > 27N min > 9N min
1 > -4 > 64N min > 16N min
0 > -5 > 125N min > 25N min

The penalty is applied to all of your stats and your level along with a flat 10% movement speed reduction. The more often you've been killed recently, the worse the penalty will be (except for the speed penalty) and the longer it will last. N is some multiplier which likely depends on method of raising and possibly if you went to the Fugue or not. For example, autorespawn x9, raise dead x6, resurrection x3, +3 if you went to the Fugue - in this case, the worst you could do on your first death would be 12 minutes of a -1 penalty and the worst you could do on your last death would be a RL day of penalties starting at -5 and improving by 1 step about every 4-5 hrs. It's only with the second death in a short period of time that the penalties start to make any appreciable difference.

Note again that because the calculations would only be done as part of the save routine (to distribute the computational load) all times listed might be up to 10-15 min longer (except for the transfer to the Fugue on your 5th death, which is immediate).

IronAngel wrote:

Well, I think the idea is that you're supposed to be screwed if you get in danger again. The Respawn on spot of death should be removed anyway.

I think points 1, 2 and 4 are desireable consequences. It's what I'm aiming at.

3 and 5 are more an issue with idiot players. I tend to play with patient folk who put RP before haste. We can't hope to change that kind of attitude if we cater to it.

So because I got killed, I'm going to be FORCED into dying until my lives hit -1?

And yes. That is my literal concern that a slow speed effect is much too powerful.

Epic-ruin.

*Sits on a stone and becomes one with it.* ... heh... I am stone.

Torzeng wrote:

So because I got killed, I'm going to be FORCED into dying until my lives hit -1?

Hardly. You can go right out and deliberately get yourself killed again if you want to, but nobody is forcing you to.

Torzeng wrote:

That is my literal concern that a slow speed effect is much too powerful.

That's why I suggested a maximum speed reduction of 10% (though if you lose a whole whack of strength and are encumbered, that's another matter).

Xaviera wrote:

Torzeng wrote:

So because I got killed, I'm going to be FORCED into dying until my lives hit -1?

Hardly. You can go right out and deliberately get yourself killed again if you want to, but nobody is forcing you to.

I honestly don't know any zones besides Cordor and I think Kohligen with PVP turned off.

And a lot of people are banned from those; often the PvP'ers too.

So where do they get to hide?

Quote:

Torzeng wrote:

That is my literal concern that a slow speed effect is much too powerful.

That's why I suggested a maximum speed reduction of 10% (though if you lose a whole whack of strength and are encumbered, that's another matter).

Again, monks will laught their arses off as the speed reduction does nothing to them = favoritism.

And 10% is a lot more than you realize. If you've even seen how much faster you go than another with that; it's more than enough to get caught even if you would try to run.

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. I rather doubt anyone's going to force you to PvP, and if you get griefed, there's always screenie and PM.

And 10% isnt a big deal in terms of a movement reduction, I dont think.

Some IC actions cause IC consequences. Regardless of unwillingness to PvP.

If you've gotten to the point where your character gets confronted all the time, you've done something to earn it. I don't feel sympathy for those characters because that's the way their RP has progressed. I really don't find a valid argument there to make me change my mind about harsher PvP penalties. I have a character that isn't shy to confrontation myself. I'm involved in PvP anywhere from once a week to five times a day because of the nature of the PC's RP. Such is the way of the beast. Deal with it.

Indeed, it is.

But it won't be fun for that player if his/her character ends up spending 95% of his/her time in the Fugue plane. Basically making the character unplayable.

I don't really think there is any need for harsher death penalties, as people will still just wait till reset and get a raise.

As for PvP penalities, thats the stupidest idea ever. Given how many people who engage in PvP are gigantic douchebags the idea of being penalised for douchebaggery sounds horrible. Making PvP penalities silly.

Well yes, at the moment anyone who PvPs indiscriminately doesn't really inflict any penalties on their victims. But then they should be getting reported if they actually break the rules in the course of PvP.

Oh, and entry room raises would be disabled.

Obviously. And the penalties would apply even in case of a Raise.

We can't want actual consequences for PvP and, at the same time, avoid anything that might be a tool for griefing. Any consequence can be abused, too. So we can just be afraid of rulebreakers and do nothing, or we can bite the bullet, accept this enhancement of RP and start reporting rulebreakers.

I think PvP penalties are the priority, here. PvM is secondary, and does not have the same positive effect as PvP consequences do.

Xaviera wrote:

Number of lives left upon death > Time before entering Fugue:

4 > 64 min
3 > 27 min
2 > 8 min
1 > 1 min
0 > immediate upon death

This means that you can wait around as a corpse for someone to stumble over you. It also means that your body can be carried to an NPC cleric before you go off to the Fugue Plane, if it's done soon enough after death.

Number of lives left upon death > Max time spent in Fugue plane before you autorespawn:

4 > 1 min
3 > 8 min
2 > 27 min
1 > 64 min
0 > 125 min

You have to spend a certain 'time out' in the Fugue Plane if you've been killed and your pool of lives is depleted. While in the Fugue you can be raised - if not raised before the time elapses you autorespawn at your home bindpoint or perhaps a temple.

Number of lives left upon death > Max penalty upon res/respawn > Max duration of penalty > Approx time increments to decrease penalty by 1 step:

4 > -1 > 1N min > 1N min
3 > -2 > 8N min > 4N min
2 > -3 > 27N min > 9N min
1 > -4 > 64N min > 16N min
0 > -5 > 125N min > 25N min

The penalty is applied to all of your stats and your level along with a flat 10% movement speed reduction. The more often you've been killed recently, the worse the penalty will be (except for the speed penalty) and the longer it will last. N is some multiplier which likely depends on method of raising and possibly if you went to the Fugue or not. For example, autorespawn x9, raise dead x6, resurrection x3, +3 if you went to the Fugue - in this case, the worst you could do on your first death would be 12 minutes of a -1 penalty and the worst you could do on your last death would be a RL day of penalties starting at -5 and improving by 1 step about every 4-5 hrs. It's only with the second death in a short period of time that the penalties start to make any appreciable difference.

Note again that because the calculations would only be done as part of the save routine (to distribute the computational load) all times listed might be up to 10-15 min longer (except for the transfer to the Fugue on your 5th death, which is immediate).

This is rather elegant. I don't understand the difference between the time before you go to the Fugue, and the time you spend in there, though.

How can you still be raised if you go into the Fugue? Do you mean a symbol of your corpse still sticks around, and can be raised to get you out of there sooner?

The idea of "lives" bothers me on a very principal level. You are alive or not, and your soul does not "tire", it does not "strain".

Well, your body could. It's pretty reasonable to suppose that repeated death and resurrection -routine causes damage to your body, and it can't take it every day. It needs rest. (Even if it's basically a new body on Resurrection - consider it a genetic memory!)

Whether we include the concept of "lives" or not, the same problem will still be there with any scaling death penalties. If previous conditions don't affect your current penalties, we have no choice but to go with a flat penalty every time. Which is kinda boring, and punishes the accidental death as much as the daily victim of massacre.

Death Penalties (no permadeath talk here!)

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