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Would a character loose the ability to speak a language if he was to rebuild to a version of himself with either a different class such as blackguard to cleric, meaning the language of Abyssal. or if his intellect was to be reduced slightly.

There's no rule on it but I'd say it depends on how /far/ the INT drops. I'd say if you drop it below 9 for sure he'd lose something but if you are doing a rebuild I'd hope that you're justifying it with RP and that will determine a few things about what happens with things like that. So ask the IC question what is happened that his mind is taking a bit of a hike and then you have your awnser

jimbono1 wrote:

Would a character loose the ability to speak a language if he was to rebuild to a version of himself with either a different class such as blackguard to cleric, meaning the language of Abyssal. or if his intellect was to be reduced slightly.

We don't have a rule to govern languages, it's up to your RP.

While we have no exact rules though if I see human barb with 9 int speaking; drow, drow hand sign, abbysal, celestial, elven, dwarven, infernal etc. I simply take that into account when handing out dcs.

Just because we don't have rules about it doesn't mean it isn't noticed.

Ok Cheer's

From Rules and Lore

Nekhy wrote:

According to the rules of pen and paper third edition DnD, a character can only speak as many languages as your INT modifier, aside from Common or their racial/class language (meaning an Elf comes auto with Elven and Common regardless of intelligence, and an Drow Druid would come with Drow, Drow HandSign, Common, and Druidic).

Do realise that your choice of bonus languages must be logical. A half-ork will be not be in the position to learn Drow Sign language easily, as it's very difficult to master, and it'd be hard to find a tutor.

I thought the DM team wasn't allowing people to drop Blackguard if they had taken it already?

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

I thought the DM team wasn't allowing people to drop Blackguard if they had taken it already?

Sure you're not thinking more RDD?
Then again, I don't know Blackguard so well, does that actually show a racial trait change?

You can theoretically drop any class, but the justification will be reviewed case by case, as a rebuild needs DM approval/involvement in any case.

RDD and PM are the difficult classes to lose. Blackguard may be difficult and require a quest, if you've made a pact with a fiend and want to cancel it. But then, you might instead by a champion of a dark deity, in which case losing Blackguard is equivalent to a Cleric/Paladin Falling and losing faith.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

From Rules and Lore

Nekhy wrote:

According to the rules of pen and paper third edition DnD, a character can only speak as many languages as your INT modifier, aside from Common or their racial/class language (meaning an Elf comes auto with Elven and Common regardless of intelligence, and an Drow Druid would come with Drow, Drow HandSign, Common, and Druidic).

Do realise that your choice of bonus languages must be logical. A half-ork will be not be in the position to learn Drow Sign language easily, as it's very difficult to master, and it'd be hard to find a tutor.

I think that's been ignored for a long time, since it doesn't make sense from an RP point of view.

If that is the case, it should be updated in the Rules and Lore forum, for that is where I look to find the rules and lore concerning Amia, and I try to abide by those.

It explains the general language rules in PnP, though it's not exactly accurate. It's not an Amian rule, just a recommendation (though I don't ever pay attention to the PnP rule myself, because I'm confident that my PC's language skills are reasonable).

The bottom line is: be reasonable and justify your decisions. If you are unsure what this means, refer to the PnP rules for comparison. If your idea of "reasonable" is particularly far from PnP rules and DM ideas about reasonable, we may ask you to reconsider.

IronAngel wrote:

The bottom line is: be reasonable and justify your decisions. If you are unsure what this means, refer to the PnP rules for comparison. If your idea of "reasonable" is particularly far from PnP rules and DM ideas about reasonable, we may ask you to reconsider.

For the love of the gods, this.

If I didn't know better, I'd think that some people's characters spend all their time studying every known language on Toril. A half-orc barbarian with an INT of 8 that knows 9 different languages? Really? *sigh* Sounds far fetched, but I've seen it before.

If you really want to learn languages, then just do it. Yes, you can start the game knowing a set few, depending on your intelligence modifier. But some of the most fun rp I've had was learning different languages from PC's with my fey. Almost anything can be rp'ed, if you're smart, and responsible for it.

No half orc will go learning drow hand sign in a week, but given the proper tutelage, maybe after a year, he could understand it, and speak it primitively. Know your characters limits, and look to push them. Make your character grow, and evolve, with the rest of the Amian population.

If I've learned anything from this server, it's that the things you can do are only limited by what you can think up. If you can justify your half orc wanting to learn dhs, and find a decent pc tutor, then ya know what? I'll talk to your half orc in dhs all day long, and won't bat an eye.

Be responsible, and know that no character is a god. You can learn what you want, but it -will- be learning, and it will take a lot of effort and time. If you're not willing to do that, then kindly shove off, and don't waste anyone's time. *sage nod*

That's true. By PnP rules, you can learn a new language by studying it and then buying a rank in the Language skill. For Bards, it's a class skill, for others it takes two skill points. The intelligence limit is only for initial languages, not what you can learn. (Though reasonably, there is of course a limit to how much a stupid guy will ever learn.)

While I hold you in a high respect, Davis, I don't agree with one point in your above post.

I think that's part of the problem in Amia, is the fact that "anything" is possible.

A drow teaching anyone else DHS would be hunted down and murdered, should it be found out. On Isles like Amia, it would be found out quite quickly, lol.... I absolutely agree with you on the point you made about doing the RP, and not expecting it to happen overnight.. but there are some things that just shouldn't happen.

An ogre learning DHS is one of them!

Regards,

That's the point of our rp, though! The option is there. Could that half orc learn dhs? If given the time, quite possibly. -Should- he? Hell no. You're absolutely right. He'd be hunted down and just...destroyed. But it's still part of the rp...and personally, I'd love to meet the half orc smart enough to learn dhs, yet dumb enough to actually use it. *evil snicker*

Last edited by FA_Frey_XC on Tue, Dec 22 2009, 22:51 PM, edited 1 time in total.

IronAngel wrote:

That's true. By PnP rules, you can learn a new language by studying it and then buying a rank in the Language skill. For Bards, it's a class skill, for others it takes two skill points. The intelligence limit is only for initial languages, not what you can learn. (Though reasonably, there is of course a limit to how much a stupid guy will ever learn.)

Really? Did this change in 3.0 / 3.5? I don't have my7 PDF's open but I was sure the LANG limit (total) was still based upon your INT modifier, which really makes sense.

NOTE- I am NOT talking about PnP trumping our House Rules, obviously, but just to be sure

I'm just asking.

I remember about two years ago the same dicussion came up, and it was relayed that a PC -should- note their initial INT score, pick languages, and then if they wish leave a lang or two open for future learning.

I can't believe that 3.0 / 3.5 allows someone to learn every language, if they have appropriate sources and time... and an int higher than 12.

Regards,

davis114 wrote:

That's the point of our rp, though! The option is there. Could that half orc learn dhs? If given the time, quite possibly. -Should- he? Hell no. You're absolutely right. He'd be hunted down and just...destroyed. But it's still part of the rp...and personally, I'd love to meet the half orc smart enough to learn dhs, yet dumb enough to actually use it. *evil snicker*

Point! +1 to you Sir.

Regards,

I do not know when it has changed, if it has. That appears to be the rule in the PHB 3.5 which is the only one I have, though.

It's not as if you could learn every langauge, given the time and resources. Sure, the rules technically leave the possibility open; but it's the DM who determines whether you get to learn a given language or not. It doesn't work on Amia, where there's no DM to watch over your shoulder all the time, which leads me to my first post:

Quote:

The bottom line is: be reasonable and justify your decisions. If you are unsure what this means, refer to the PnP rules for comparison. If your idea of "reasonable" is particularly far from PnP rules and DM ideas about reasonable, we may ask you to reconsider.

"Reconsider" is a nice way to say "We're going to tell you your PC doesn't really know Celestial, Sylvan and Ignan."

On languages, can a player simply decide which languages their character knows, if this is reasonable?

Normally I would go with INT bonus only, like in pen and paper, and only know Common as my Paladin, but his RP (including his Master Exorcist job, and his apprentice Spiritualist job) would likely involve him, in pen and paper at least, spending ranks to have at least some familiarity with Abyssal, Infernal and Celestial, if perhaps not fluency.

Learning every language is certainly possible , since only about 20 are given in the player's handbook (although Forgotten Realms has the silly concept of having superfluous national languages, as well as having every human fluent in Common, AKA Super Esperanto), and when you get to the point where you can read and memorise spells from half a dozen different tomes in a single hour, with intelligence dwarfing the greatest geniuses to have ever lived, it would be possible, if a complete and utter waste of time for most cases.

The limit on how many languages one knows, I believe, is limited by how many ranks one can spend in Speak Language, although it isn't explicitly stated. A level 3 human bard with INT 10 could theoretically have 6 ranks spent in it, so could know 7 languages including common.

Also note that in pen and paper, you get the 'tongues' spell, negating the need to waste skill ranks, and also, level 17 monks automatically have the ability to speak to anything at all.

Quote:

On languages, can a player simply decide which languages their character knows, if this is reasonable?

Yes, with Iron's caveat:

Quote:

The bottom line is: be reasonable and justify your decisions. If you are unsure what this means, refer to the PnP rules for comparison. If your idea of "reasonable" is particularly far from PnP rules and DM ideas about reasonable, we may ask you to reconsider.

Tongues and ToSaM are PnP and thus require consent of all involved for their use and in the bar'ds case requires you to drop a spell on your list and never use it, in order to cast tongues, since Bards learn all their spells on level up. If you cast Tongues as your bard, I will and do make notes and will expect you to never cast that other level 2 spell again. Such is the woe of sorcerors and bards vs wizard/druid/clerics.

Holy.. it use to just be the + of your INT mod = the # of languages you could know.. so +10 from your INT meant 10 languages total.

How things change.. and become more complicated

Thanks for clearing that up.

Regards,

That is the typical guideline, yups, in lieu of the whole Speak Languages skill being in NWN, and the guideline I personally use for my own characters. I will raise a brow at a 12 int PC knowing 5 languages.

It's not altogether realistic, the Int limit.

Imagine a person knowing 4 languages. Like me. And I'm about to learn a fifth one.

That would require a base Int of 20. That's more than any normal human in D&D could have. That's superhuman intelligent. Now, evidently, you don't need to be particularly intelligent to learn that many languages. It's a matter of work, not talent.

Basically everyone in Finland knows 3 languages, more or less. If the Int rule were the sole factor, that would mean the average Int in Finland is 16. That's already pretty genius.

But be that as it may: I do think your Int is a good representation of your capacity to learn. If you have 10-12 Intelligence, you're probably not going to learn several languages, and you'll have a hard time studying.

IronAngel wrote:

It's not altogether realistic, the Int limit.

Imagine a person knowing 4 languages. Like me. And I'm about to learn a fifth one.

That would require a base Int of 20. That's more than any normal human in D&D could have. That's superhuman intelligent. Now, evidently, you don't need to be particularly intelligent to learn that many languages. It's a matter of work, not talent.

Basically everyone in Finland knows 3 languages, more or less. If the Int rule were the sole factor, that would mean the average Int in Finland is 16. That's already pretty genius.

But be that as it may: I do think your Int is a good representation of your capacity to learn. If you have 10-12 Intelligence, you're probably not going to learn several languages, and you'll have a hard time studying.

I made that point in another thread as well - I, without bragging, would say that I'm more intelligent than my Oma. I speak only English, whilst she speaks Dutch, German, English and French.

So herein lies the argument of RL vs Fantasy. You cannot accurately measure ones Intelligence in Real Life, and so the argument has no validity here.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

So herein lies the argument of RL vs Fantasy. You cannot accurately measure ones Intelligence in Real Life, and so the argument has no validity here.

Yet we know roughly what the intelligence scores of D&D represent and, no offence to my Oma, she does not have an intelligence of 18.

In fact, 18 is as high as humans can go, without slaying monsters and acquiring superhuman intelligence. That's the natural limit.

12 is pretty smart. 14 is notably intelligent. 16 is brilliant. 18 is outright genius. Yet you clearly do not need to be brilliant, or even notably intelligent, to learn several languages.

2 points make a huge difference in D&D, if we're talking about normal people. 10 Intelligence is the average, yet 8 is unable to speak properly.

IronAngel wrote:

8 is unable to speak properly.

I've always thought that's crap, pardonnez mon francais, s'il vous plait. 5 or 4 or 3, maybe, but being stupid doesnt automatically give you a speech impediment.

Lacking charisma could possibly do one's speech in, as could intelligence, but it should be extremes here, and up to the player. 8 INT isn't terribly far below average human intelligence, 12 or 13 isn't that far above it. You probably wouldn't notice that such a person was much different from average.

Regardless, a person of low intelligence can still learn other languages by spending skill points. Effectively, for every point of bonus one would have in the speak language skill, one knows a language.

Someone with 4 ranks in speak language, and 16 INT would know 7 languages on top of common, as 4 ranks+3 bonus from the stat is effectively a +7 bonus.

The INT bonus is not a limit on languages known, although it helps know more to begin with.

how many laguages does the average pope know?

yeah....

I would advise the other way as well. Just because your character has a good INT score doesn't mean you have to cram them full of languages. Think about your character's background, where and how they might learn an extra language, and pick languages that are appropriate for your character.

Consider that some languages are a bit more secretive than others, and less likely to be learned by outsiders, including Druidic, Drow Sign, Dwarven...

Also, instead of starting off your character with four fluent languages, try learning some of them in game from other characters.

The majority of my characters know nothing besides Common, despite the healthy INT scores I try to give them. (I'm a skill whore.)

I agree with Cobbit. Personally, my loremaster PC can only speak Common (and I suppose Chondathan, which is the regional language of Cormyr). And of course the amount of some extraplanar language required for clerical business, but that doesn't count. He can talk a little bit of Elvish, but can't carry on a conversation. He can read all the basic alphabets, and translate both Dwarven and Elvish easily with a dictionary or other reference material. The same goes, I suppose, for the major dead languages of Faerûnian cultures (there are three, I think). But no: he has had no reason to learn to speak other languages, so I'll rather let him be ignorant. More fun RP that way.

I say learn it IG. Lot more fun. You don't have to play every lesson. You can assume RP some of it since the time that you are not on the server technically your guy is still living a life and learning. Like my guy Daniel. He started off, by backstory, knowing common and a bit each of elven, draconic and abyssal. After almost five years IGT and being married twice to elves only his elven has improved at all and he still drops a word here and there and has a /really/ bad accent which is alot of fun to play up when to comes up

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