AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Death Penalties (no permadeath talk here!)

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Dramatic_Prince wrote:

Kjetta wrote:

*Spawns something nasty on Prescia.*

*Hides behind greater sanctuary*
Seriously though, if uncapped I will go with three options:
1. PC Bankers
2. Never go on another hunt
3. Never hit the respawn button

And such choices are your prerogative.

As is your random spam comment.

Merely pointing out that you have every right to hide from events that will cause you to lose gold, whilst such decisions should not have a bearing on the instigation of this rule unless shared by a majority of the player base.

As for spam, why do you mention it, pot?

Yurell wrote:

As for spam, why do you mention it, pot?

Because you are 2009's Best Spammer :lol:

TormakSaber wrote:

That's a rather big punishment for not realizing at creation that we are a server that makes use of a field that few even figure out exists at character creation, or what it meas and does. It would be like permakilling you based on your "Age" field. Does ANYONE take that seriously?

perhaps a warning on how important faith is in faerun, it is rather insane not to follow a god in the eyes and minds of more than 99,999999% of the faerun if im not mistaken

Kraniumbrud wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

That's a rather big punishment for not realizing at creation that we are a server that makes use of a field that few even figure out exists at character creation, or what it meas and does. It would be like permakilling you based on your "Age" field. Does ANYONE take that seriously?

perhaps a warning on how important faith is in faerun, it is rather insane not to follow a god in the eyes and minds of more than 99,999999% of the faerun if im not mistaken

It's rather insane to follow a god, rather than a pantheon thereof.

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

That's a rather big punishment for not realizing at creation that we are a server that makes use of a field that few even figure out exists at character creation, or what it meas and does. It would be like permakilling you based on your "Age" field. Does ANYONE take that seriously?

perhaps a warning on how important faith is in faerun, it is rather insane not to follow a god in the eyes and minds of more than 99,999999% of the faerun if im not mistaken

It's rather insane to follow a god, rather than a pantheon thereof.

its how faerun works, the faithless and punished big time, faith is a reality...many people remember the gods walking the world, not to worship a god is insane...they know they exist

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Yurell wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

That's a rather big punishment for not realizing at creation that we are a server that makes use of a field that few even figure out exists at character creation, or what it meas and does. It would be like permakilling you based on your "Age" field. Does ANYONE take that seriously?

perhaps a warning on how important faith is in faerun, it is rather insane not to follow a god in the eyes and minds of more than 99,999999% of the faerun if im not mistaken

It's rather insane to follow a god, rather than a pantheon thereof.

its how faerun works, the faithless and punished big time, faith is a reality...many people remember the gods walking the world, not to worship a god is insane...they know they exist

No - worshipping a god is just as odd as worshipping none in FR. Almost everyone (with notable exceptions, such as Llothites), worships a pantheon of gods.

I don't see how uncapped penalties are remotely acceptable. Its unequal punishment for the same 'crime'.

Can someone that is for them explain how it is remotely fair?

I also refuse to accept it is the same 'percentage' and thus it is being fair so you will have to do so without that.

For what its worth:

I suggest an xp penalty as follows:

Respawn = 10% XP penalty
Raise Dead scroll, or cast = 5% xp penalty
Resurrect = no xp penalty.

This would fix the "lvl 30 = home safe".

It will not guarentee a level loss, but certainly has the possibility of one, definatly if you are experiencing 5 deaths to kill a single boss.

It would make PvM and PvP deaths bad, but not unplayabley nasty. It would add a little flavor to PvP deaths too. If you were insistant on having it out with another player you could experience a nasty cummalative penalty, but if some one was trying to grief you, well it is fixable with DM and screenies easliy, as well as not permanent, and also has a "preventable" "minimal" loss.. ie don't return for another beating.

Another suggestion I would have is to increasae the casting time on the raise dead and ressurect spell and scrolls to something like 5 rounds and if possible have this break GS and Invisability. This would prevent people from respawning and rebuffing in the middle of a combat as they would likely get killed again and loose more xp. Also, it would deter any caster from using this spell in the middle of combat and putting the dead player as well as themselves in the cross hairs of a ticked off monster/player.

Regarding PvP, Why not forcing the risk of loosing items upon dying? (With excluding DC items)

Lets say that everytime you die.. you drop a random item to the ground? People will think twice before they engage in PvP. I think it'll help the little guys too, those RP builds who can't go solo epic bosses for epic gear could finally get their hands on epic loot. f'course they could loose these items too, buuut.. that's what make it so interesting.

As for PvM, it's hard enough as it is. I think any change made to death penelties there will just encourage powerbuilding.

Note: I'm against escalating death penelties, and I don't think it'll solve the problem it meant to solve.

msheeler wrote:

This would fix the "lvl 30 = home safe".

It will not guarentee a level loss, but certainly has the possibility of one, definatly if you are experiencing 5 deaths to kill a single boss.

De-leveling is not an option. It breaks some classes.

Iron's is the bestest so far.

Proper Raise Dead casting times (10 minutes!!!!) might actually work...

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

Proper Raise Dead casting times (10 minutes!!!!) might actually work...

Anything longer than the instant is better IMO.

Iron - could you please offer some more concrete proposals on numbers & durations?

Increased XP penalties and such won't work: you can't be delevelled anyway, and PvP is a problem. We want PvP to carry consequences as well, but XP penalties aren't very nice in PvP. They make losing a drag, even if it was all in good fun. And they don't have any IC relevance.

As for numbers and durations, I was going to leave that for the community to discuss. Some ideas:

Regeneration rate of 1 life per week, capped at 5. (Someone thought they wouldn't regenerate until you were down to one, but that's not my intention.)

First death (4 lives left): Random ability penalties for 1 hour (2 hours if scroll, 3 hours if Respawn).
Second death (3 lives left): Increased penalties for 3 hours (6 if scroll, 9 if Respawn).
Third death (2 lives left): Increased penalties for 5 hours (10 if scroll, 15 if Respawn). Time in Fugue: 30 minutes (unaffected by method of resurrection).
Fourth death (1 life left): Increased penalties for 8 hours (16 if scroll, 24 for Respawn). Time in Fugue: 1 hour.
Fifth death (0 lives left): Increased penalties for 18 hours (36 if scroll, 44 if Respawn). Time in Fugue: 4 hours.
Sixth death: Sent to Fugue until lives regenerate.

Subject to polishing, of course.

Last edited by Torzeng on Mon, Dec 21 2009, 20:41 PM, edited 1 time in total.

IronAngel wrote:

Increased XP penalties and such won't work: you can't be delevelled anyway, and PvP is a problem. We want PvP to carry consequences as well, but XP penalties aren't very nice in PvP. They make losing a drag, even if it was all in good fun. And they don't have any IC relevance.

As for numbers and durations, I was going to leave that for the community to discuss. Some ideas:

Regeneration rate of 1 life per week, capped at 5. (Someone thought they wouldn't regenerate until you were down to one, but that's not my intention.)

First death (4 lives left): Random ability penalties for 1 hour (2 hours if scroll, 3 hours if Respawn).
Second death (3 lives left): Increased penalties for 3 hours (6 if scroll, 9 if Respawn).
Third death (2 lives left): Increased penalties for 5 hours (10 if scroll, 15 if Respawn). Time in Fugue: 30 minutes (unaffected by method of resurrection).
Fourth death (1 life left): Increased penalties for 8 hours (16 if scroll, 24 for Respawn). Time in Fugue: 1 hour.
Fifth death (0 lives left): Increased penalties for 18 hours (36 if scroll, 44 if Respawn). Time in Fugue: 4 hours.
Sixth death: Sent to Fugue until lives regenerate.

Subject to polishing, of course.

That's good to see, the part I bolded, as that was I who asked on that nitgrit detail.

I think the timetables currently shown are pretty sensable, although the "4 hours in Fugue" and "1 hour in Fugue" make me wonder: Do you have to be logged into to pass that time?
The counter would have to be something that triggers regardless if you are logged in or not. I would say it adds, however, then the question if you have to go to fugue first before you log-out; or if it'll be possible to find a timer system that just calculates regardless; so if you don't play for those 4 hours, it's equal to having sat in the fugue for 4 hours.

I really like how this works off Didi's idea on the life system. So I have bias

I'd get jittery on the 44hours of penalties though if you get bummunched to 0 lives and get stuck with Respawn: 44 hours of penalties. That's 2 days pretty much; really really would hope the counter runs regardless if you're logged out or logged in. Can you imagine being stuck with 44 played hours (logged in for 44) just to recover? I'm just trying to see the difference of "meaning" to "unFun" - what Dwagin has made a very nice post about.

Sixth Death: Are you stuck until 1 life regenerates? (back to 0 from -1) or are you stuck until all 5 lives regenerate? -1 to 5 = 6 weeks!

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

Proper Raise Dead casting times (10 minutes!!!!) might actually work...

Not really, no. As IC time 10 minutes, not RL time 10 minutes. That would just be an "unFun" catagory of annoyance. Expecially as to how it penalizes PvP/PvM if you're in a tight situation. Or makes it so long to pick up your party in PvM that you'll be hit by a mob-respawn. PvP aftermath of providing any required raises just becomes a pain-in-the-bum on time delay...

Big Edit

What happens with PvP Widget raises? Do they reverse having lost a life?
Or will that only apply in marked "Arena" zones so that you can be raised without loosing a life? Or if you die in said "Arena" zone, the system checks the script and cancles the loose 1 life?

What with those non-killing intent PvPs? [Mostly just those training bouts where you wouldn't have the goal to induce penalites for death- or some of those Shadowflame tournaments]

Quote:

uncapped gold penalties

I've mulled it over on the numbers. 40,000 max loss is way too pathetic for Amia's player-base economy.

But at the same time, an uncapped 10% at any level will take away the motivation of the players who are the server's big tycooons.

Which makes this hard because I like the idea of a flat-rate % for any level of lost gold. So if you are a big gold farmer, you risk more if you play reckless about it.

But... Enough numbers go by and I think, for now, a 1,000,000 (1million) gold cap is a reasonable start to increasing without demolishing the sense of reward to those who gold hunt like zombies hunt for brains.

So after your first 10million, you will only loose 1million maximum.

And 10 million is still enough to (usually) buy 3-4 perfect mythals. Which are in my viewpoint the most highly trades million-cost range items. So those make a good bases, because thats a "common good". Rare stuff, obviously, surpases those prices because it is "rare" or "uncommon".

All my time suggestions are based on the assumption that the timer runs even if you're logged out. So, I guess you could not play for a few days, and be back up to full health. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote:

Sixth Death: Are you stuck until 1 life regenerates? (back to 0 from -1) or are you stuck until all 5 lives regenerate? -1 to 5 = 6 weeks!

No. You can return once you regenerate one life. However, if you die alone before you regenerate a second one, you get back into the Fugue again. The lower the number of lives you're running with, the greater the risk. Lay low and keep it cool for several weeks, and you're back to the default condition.

Quote:

What happens with PvP Widget raises? Do they reverse having lost a life?
Or will that only apply in marked "Arena" zones so that you can be raised without loosing a life? Or if you die in said "Arena" zone, the system checks the script and cancles the loose 1 life?

What with those non-killing intent PvPs? [Mostly just those training bouts where you wouldn't have the goal to induce penalites for death- or some of those Shadowflame tournaments]

There's a subdual option for friendly duels. The default option should be death, and it should inflict the penalties of losing a life.

The biggest problem with my suggestion is that it's relatively complicated, mechanically. There are a lot of checks and timers involved. I am not sure if Terra/Disco is willing or even able to script this.

Torzeng wrote:

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

Proper Raise Dead casting times (10 minutes!!!!) might actually work...

Not really, no. As IC time 10 minutes, not RL time 10 minutes. That would just be an "unFun" catagory of annoyance. Expecially as to how it penalizes PvP/PvM if you're in a tight situation. Or makes it so long to pick up your party in PvM that you'll be hit by a mob-respawn. PvP aftermath of providing any required raises just becomes a pain-in-the-bum on time delay...

This would be my biggest point. If you keep my guy in the fugue for four /RL/ hours then I'm annoyed. Six RL minutes is one IG hour on the other hand so why not scale the time spent in fugue by game time instead? Keeping someone's PC from playing for a half IG day is much more reasonable then cutting them off from playing for four RL hours.

Well, the entire point is that you can get rid of a rival PC for a short period, so that you can run around doing all sorts of mischief in the meantime.

The penalties aren't supposed to annoy you, but rather offer some IC consequences that other people can take advantage of. If nobody else notices your penalty, it's pointless.

IronAngel wrote:

All my time suggestions are based on the assumption that the timer runs even if you're logged out. So, I guess you could not play for a few days, and be back up to full health. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Quote:

Sixth Death: Are you stuck until 1 life regenerates? (back to 0 from -1) or are you stuck until all 5 lives regenerate? -1 to 5 = 6 weeks!

No. You can return once you regenerate one life. However, if you die alone before you regenerate a second one, you get back into the Fugue again. The lower the number of lives you're running with, the greater the risk. Lay low and keep it cool for several weeks, and you're back to the default condition.

Quote:

What happens with PvP Widget raises? Do they reverse having lost a life?
Or will that only apply in marked "Arena" zones so that you can be raised without loosing a life? Or if you die in said "Arena" zone, the system checks the script and cancles the loose 1 life?

What with those non-killing intent PvPs? [Mostly just those training bouts where you wouldn't have the goal to induce penalites for death- or some of those Shadowflame tournaments]

There's a subdual option for friendly duels. The default option should be death, and it should inflict the penalties of losing a life.

The biggest problem with my suggestion is that it's relatively complicated, mechanically. There are a lot of checks and timers involved. I am not sure if Terra/Disco is willing or even able to script this.

It does however look to be very good in design. At least.

Scimiter wrote:

Torzeng wrote:

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

Proper Raise Dead casting times (10 minutes!!!!) might actually work...

Not really, no. As IC time 10 minutes, not RL time 10 minutes. That would just be an "unFun" catagory of annoyance. Expecially as to how it penalizes PvP/PvM if you're in a tight situation. Or makes it so long to pick up your party in PvM that you'll be hit by a mob-respawn. PvP aftermath of providing any required raises just becomes a pain-in-the-bum on time delay...

This would be my biggest point. If you keep my guy in the fugue for four /RL/ hours then I'm annoyed. Six RL minutes is one IG hour on the other hand so why not scale the time spent in fugue by game time instead? Keeping someone's PC from playing for a half IG day is much more reasonable then cutting them off from playing for four RL hours.

A bit out of context.

I was arguing against "spell casting time 10 RL minutes".

Death Penatly I should think is in RL time.

Because then you're running a risk.

Of course, the times are still to be determined. A "Half-Day IG time" would be what in RL time? And I know that most players, I myself, generally use "IG days are speed-of-plot".

In my instance of a half a IG day for the highest penalty that would be 72 minutes (6 RL minutes X 12 IG hours) That's still over a hour of time in Fugue. You say that the point is to allow people the chance to keep you down but not annoy people for missing out on to much playing time I think that would be much more reasonable

Edit: And I agree that time moves at the speed of plot but we are discussing a system here and it needs solid numbers

Scimiter wrote:

In my instance of a half a IG day for the highest penalty that would be 72 minutes (6 RL minutes X 12 IG hours) That's still over a hour of time in Fugue. You say that the point is to allow people the chance to keep you down but not annoy people for missing out on to much playing time I think that would be much more reasonable

Edit: And I agree that time moves at the speed of plot but we are discussing a system here and it needs solid numbers

Making me go do something else, or play another PC, for up to a maximum of 1 hour won't hinder me on anything. At all.

1 hour, max? That is much too easy to pass the time with.

Most "important meeting" situations, (assume this caters more than just drow side for the moment) last MUCH longer than 1 hour. So you'd hardly miss anything.

I remember meetings with 12 or more PC's that lasted 3 hours regularily during some big plot stuff. If I only had to miss 1 hour of that, I'd just get caught up in 2 sentences the short-version of what was missed.

Unless everyone typed really fast and effeciently, 1 hour is a pretty short conversation.

Being forced into the fuge plain for hours or days is borring and why I've left many servers. Gear loss on death is more destructive to some characters than lvl loss. Gold loss on death is more OOC than anything else. Stat loss and blindness/slow/ect that are temporary is a decent start but the counter should only tick while the character is logged on. I still prefer the stackable to perminant idea of stat loss, but it would with the way D&D stats work bring about a "permadeath" situation once constitution drops to 2 because 3 is the minimum required to live, unless you can maintain a perminant "life support" of endurance spells or +con gear to keep it above that. Ofcourse, it would still come into effect eventualy, or if those effects wore off for more than an hour or so but it's realy the only one that I think would work right mechanicaly.

Also, extreme gold loss on death to me is worse than extreme permadeath because it just doesn't make sence in character to force the loss of gold unless it's a resurrection from an NPC that costs x gold per lvl... alot of the gods wouldn't take your money while they give you a boon, and the cost of a raise from a PC cleric should be up to that cleric. Your corpse may be robbed or whatever but the goldloss should not be a constant effect.

Scimiter wrote:

In my instance of a half a IG day for the highest penalty that would be 72 minutes (6 RL minutes X 12 IG hours) That's still over a hour of time in Fugue. You say that the point is to allow people the chance to keep you down but not annoy people for missing out on to much playing time I think that would be much more reasonable

Edit: And I agree that time moves at the speed of plot but we are discussing a system here and it needs solid numbers

Wilagins wrote:

Stat loss and blindness/slow/ect that are temporary is a decent start but the counter should only tick while the character is logged on.

Okay, in that system, I can see in-game time working, if the counter is only when you log in.

But now we get people who log in an troll the forums while they wait for the counter to run down.

I'd rather people can log-out and let the counter run down so we're not abusing our limited slots! (Expecially knowing people would log into A-side to do that instead of the more open B-side; since they'd want to hold their spot for hunting as soon as the counter ended)

Bringing me to my second point, once again, that some people only /have/ an hour or two of gaming a day and losing their guy and the little playing time they have is not going to sit well with them.

Anyway that point already got tossed before in the original thread so moving on I still suggest that four hours is far to long and that at least should be scaled back to maybe a full IG day max (144 RL minutes) on loss of all your lives.

This of course is only valid if someone doesn't get to your body with a spell or scroll of course.

I'll also throw a flag up for the potential rise in metagaming here. People with nothing to do are more likely to talk to their friends in tells or MSN about what they are missing. Just a thought.

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

Proper Raise Dead casting times (10 minutes!!!!) might actually work...

I had already suggested something similar. I suggested one minute, since that's how long "Raise Dead" takes to cast, not ten. "Resurrection" and "True Resurrection" are the ones that take ten minutes to cast.

P.S. I like Iron's suggestion, so far. As a rough draft, of course.

Scimiter wrote:

Bringing me to my second point, once again, that some people only /have/ an hour or two of gaming a day and losing their guy and the little playing time they have is not going to sit well with them.

Anyway that point already got tossed before in the original thread so moving on I still suggest that four hours is far to long and that at least should be scaled back to maybe a full IG day max (144 RL minutes) on loss of all your lives.

This of course is only valid if someone doesn't get to your body with a spell or scroll of course.

Somebody who only has an hour or two to play is equally penalized by a 1 hour stop, or a 44 hour stop, when the counter counts based on being logged out as well. Your system, they loose their 1 hour; Iron's system, they loose the 1 hour and are already logged out anyways for the other time. Maybe they lost 2 hours because they must wait a total of 44; but in your system, maybe they loose 30min in 2- 1 hour sessions, so the feel is not a large contrast.

Off-line including timers will not heavily burden people with limited play hours; they will be "recovering" in the time spam they already don't play anyways.

This penalty system actually slightly favors against people with more play hours; but those same people also often have multiple characts to just switch between anyways.

Continued wrote:

I'll also throw a flag up for the potential rise in metagaming here. People with nothing to do are more likely to talk to their friends in tells or MSN about what they are missing. Just a thought.

That Metagame risk is:
1) Already Present
2) DM Reprimandible

I'd say it's a null argument, and peope who try to do that and get caught will be facing far worse penalties than a death on their PC.

Heh, we clearly have completely different ideas as to the desireable caliber of these penalties, Scimiter.

Your opinion is just as good as mine, but I don't think we should try to reconcile the views. My system is based on long-term penalties that make you lay low and if things get really worse, play another PC. To me, that's an additional bonus: we get people playing more than their single PC and hopefully deter excessive attachment.

If the majority are against these kind of penalties, then you should ditch the Fugue Plane from my suggestion altogether. It only serves a point if the duration is considerable. Anything between 1-10 minutes is an annoyance, not an IC consequence. We should do it properly or not do it at all, whichever is preferred.

IronAngel wrote:

Heh, we clearly have completely different ideas as to the desireable caliber of these penalties, Scimiter.

Your opinion is just as good as mine, but I don't think we should try to reconcile the views. My system is based on long-term penalties that make you lay low and if things get really worse, play another PC. To me, that's an additional bonus: we get people playing more than their single PC and hopefully deter excessive attachment.

If the majority are against these kind of penalties, then you should ditch the Fugue Plane from my suggestion altogether. It only serves a point if the duration is considerable. Anything between 1-10 minutes is an annoyance, not an IC consequence. We should do it properly or not do it at all, whichever is preferred.

Agreed on the point of views. I am all for the the long stat penalties on a persistent timer. Those are good stuff. Right now I'm playing Daniel suffering from post-death symptoms even, though those are plot justified and not based on any system, but at least he is still /playable/ in that state. He's trapped in his own body and healing slowly but I can still log on and play him.

I think that the current discussion about death penalties is based more along the lines of "punishing" players as opposed to presenting an enjoyable, fantasy-reality roleplaying opportunity.

In the end, isn't the purpose to make the gaming experience enjoyable for the players? Not frightening or intimidating? I don't know about you guys, but I personally don't get much enjoyment, only frustration, out of being killed and forced into a bunch of negative circumstances after spending who knows how much of my time (both IG and IRL) working on that character just to have my time either wasted or be inconvenienced just because of either game mechanics or a slip-up.

I think the discussion should be focused more along the lines of "what would be fun/interesting?" as opposed to "what would make people scared of going out of town?".

Maybe that's just me.

Well, maybe it is just you. Well, probably not just you, but evidently a great deal of players have expressed that they would enjoy an environment of risk, suspense and realistic caution more than the status quo. Where there is no potential loss, there is no gain.

However: I think we should come up with a consensus on a good death system, see if it's scriptable, and then poll it. If the vast majority do not want a change after all, then that's that IMO. No point arguing back and forth now, because that will only stall the conclusion. Now we should focus on getting the best possible suggestion together, and then deciding if the community wants to use it.

I believe that yours is on track Iron but either needs to remove or minimize the amount of playing time lost.

Kjetta wrote:

There should not be a cap on gold loss at any case, we're already struggeling with getting money out of the economy.

*Spawns something nasty on Prescia.*

Then start fixing it in the right end.

Get to the cause, not the consequence.

I made a huge post some time ago in regards to this. You won't fix the money flow unless you reduce the amount of gold that's coming into the module.

Penalizing those who have more gold than others to "rid" of this problem, is not effective, and flat out stupid.

just to throw another idea out there- what about using temporary level drain effects, like vampires do. this shouldn't break any class and it should be fairly easy to script these to only restore 1 per reset or 1 per rest cycle.

IronAngel wrote:

All my time suggestions are based on the assumption that the timer runs even if you're logged out. So, I guess you could not play for a few days

So we're changing death penalties into the equivalent of short term bans?

Uuuh.

I still don't see how your suggestion could in any way be contributing to the server, Iron.

The only thing I'm seeing from it, is something that could make sense for a drow, yet become a tedious discouragement of playing on the server entirely for everyone else, with the addition of being highly griefable.

The most simple solutions are usually the best ones, btw.

IronAngel wrote:

To me, that's an additional bonus: we get people playing more than their single PC and hopefully deter excessive attachment.

I thought players playing far too many different characters, rather than investing in a selected few, was a major problem in the past, since it never offered any continuous RP and character/plot development.

Is this suddenly desirable now? >.<

Mr Mago wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

All my time suggestions are based on the assumption that the timer runs even if you're logged out. So, I guess you could not play for a few days

So we're changing death penalties into the equivalent of short term bans?

IronAngel wrote:

However: I think we should come up with a consensus on a good death system, see if it's scriptable, and then poll it. If the vast majority do not want a change after all, then that's that IMO. No point arguing back and forth now, because that will only stall the conclusion. Now we should focus on getting the best possible suggestion together, and then deciding if the community wants to use it.

Easy Mago. That is exactly what this thread is about. To find what is going to work.

Mr Mago wrote:

I thought players playing far too many different characters, rather than investing in a selected few, was a major problem in the past, since it never offered any continuous RP and character/plot development.

Though I fully agree with you on this point. I know people who have seven plus PCs and they never get a chance to expand each of them to a living, breathing part of the world. That is /why/ I only play one guy at a time myself

Just another thing to consider...

Can there also be penalties for Deathlogging? Something to the effect of if you log while in a hostile state, next time you come back on your have negative penatlies similar to experiencing death? To deter those from deathlogging, because that'll probably become the new trend to avoid any perma death situations.

chefwudan wrote:

Just another thing to consider...

Can there also be penalties for Deathlogging? Something to the effect of if you log while in a hostile state, next time you come back on your have negative penatlies similar to experiencing death? To deter those from deathlogging, because that'll probably become the new trend to avoid any perma death situations.

A little to soon for that type of talking without a system in place. However I'm guessing that the script for the penalties would activate on entering death just like the EXP and gold loss.

Edit: Reread that again and got it this time. Deathlogging is already frowned on in the rules and if someone does it take a screenie and as pointed out before about metagaming, which is what that is, they'll face worse then just some stat loss

IronAngel wrote:

Quote:

What happens with PvP Widget raises? Do they reverse having lost a life?
Or will that only apply in marked "Arena" zones so that you can be raised without loosing a life? Or if you die in said "Arena" zone, the system checks the script and cancles the loose 1 life?

What with those non-killing intent PvPs? [Mostly just those training bouts where you wouldn't have the goal to induce penalites for death- or some of those Shadowflame tournaments]

There's a subdual option for friendly duels. The default option should be death, and it should inflict the penalties of losing a life.

The biggest problem with my suggestion is that it's relatively complicated, mechanically. There are a lot of checks and timers involved. I am not sure if Terra/Disco is willing or even able to script this.

That sounds really open to people being arsehats. A PvP that ordinarily wouldn't have been complained about would have dozens of screenies (e.g. 'He started buffing before setting hostile!) and a huge amount of complaints since it just cost a week.

Wilagins wrote:

Also, extreme gold loss on death to me is worse than extreme permadeath because it just doesn't make sence in character to force the loss of gold unless it's a resurrection from an NPC that costs x gold per lvl... alot of the gods wouldn't take your money while they give you a boon, and the cost of a raise from a PC cleric should be up to that cleric. Your corpse may be robbed or whatever but the goldloss should not be a constant effect.

The wondering cleric who decided to raise you rather than leave you dead for all eternity decided to take an amount he decided you wouldn't miss much and distribute it to the poor?

You know Iron mentioned laying low for a while and that got me thinking.

Instead of respawning back to your home location, you arrive at a hideout. This will be a safe place for you to recuperate. The door leads to a secret passage which comes up at a random place on Amia. This is a one-way system to avoid the hideout becoming compromised from the outside.

To avoid drawing attention to yourself and potentially get into trouble again, your portal wand will only take you back to the hideout. Anywhere else, you have to walk, or pay for transport.

Merchants will only give you a discount based on race, since if you do venture into town it's assumed that you're going incognito and flashing a Ring of Waukeen is going to get you noticed. Your Appraise score is effectively nullified.

You can join parties, but you will gain XP as if your ECL has been increased by 1. Note that for the purposes of determining if a party is in range, your ECL stays the same.

There's one slight flaw, which is that it will be close to impossible to have a hideout all to yourself. Most people will probably vacate the place straight away, but you could conceivably arrive at a hideout that is occupied by an enemy and because of the No PvP in effect, be unable to harm them or be harmed. That is, unless of course the system cleverly picks different hideouts for PCs who have recently been engaged in hostilities.

Anyway the part I'm getting to is that in order to fully recuperate and be able to use your portal wand normally again and use your beefy Appriase check, you have to re-stock the hideout with food and supplies for the next time you have to go back there. There's nothing complicated about this, you go to an NPC and buy the supplies via a conversation option. But you can only do one re-stocking per reset.

If for example you feel it's likely that you could be killed again, you don't have to go and talk to the NPC. You can stick to your hideout so that nobody can predict where you will be, and you don't waste gold buying supplies that will be used all too soon.

This to me seems like a consequence which makes it a little more difficult for you to get into the situation which earned you the consequence in the first place. The inability to portal to your usual stomping grounds isn't a whole lot of fun, but it does keep your character safe when they need safety.

The part that makes it fun is that your character's recuperation is not assumed, there is an actual place where they do that. You can roleplay it as much as you want or as little as you want, either way you have to make the best of it while it lasts.

I.. don't understand that at all. That's more of a 'I'm a valueable FBI witness and I don't want to get recognized because the mob's going to get me but I still wanna go out and an adventure.'

They're obviously fit enough to go out and adventure, so I don't see the hold up. I don't.. really get it.

Why would someone care if they were seen roughed up a bit? This could make sense if you were a -Drow- I guess. . but makes no sense at all as a surfacer other than trying to save face. If you were so wounded from a situation that also made you want to hide, clearly you'd not be out adventuring where you'd get hurt worse and possibly tracked down/killed while you're already hurt, like you have some clandestine organization after you..

I could see this if you're a political target and wanting to go hunting.. but .. it just seems way way too specific for a general death penalty system.

Good. I didn't understand it either. This is one of those ideas that goes on for several paragraphs and makes no sense except being vaguely tied into something I saw a couple dozen posts back, and I don't ask myself where it came from.

You know the problem with a general penalty is..... well, the problem that exists with the current penalty. It's too general. It's not tied into the world at all, it's just there. Maybe I am barking up the wrong tree, but I am looking at ways to make it seem specific to each PC rather than one-size-fits-all.

Let me put it another way. Do you want a death penalty that fits your character and the way you play, or do you want to (unfairly some might say) take the same penalty that the next guy takes even though both of you play very differently?

Your character is a particular race, and has one or more classes. But these are not your inventions, they're something that were written up by WotC, you just borrow them to make it easier for people to relate to your character.

So the one thing that you can define yourself is what archetype your character is. Your classes give you the ability to do great or terrible things, but your archetype is what you actually do in the world of Amia.

And your archetype determines what sort of death penalty you'll be tied into. This means that you can choose an archetype because your playing style matches it and the death penalty is fair to you. Or you can choose an archetype because it requires you to adapt your style for that character.

There are a number of different penalties proposed and one solution might be to incorporate several. It is more work, granted, but if it gives players choices and consequences that relate to their characters, then that can't be a bad thing.

I have to agree with you. I think what some people find "fair", others find "unfair." Just because someone is mad that a person goes out and solo's and dies 30 times and isn't scared to do it because they know they won't face penalties is no valid reason to force a person who very rarely goes out alone and plays it quite safe to face far harsher consequences just because someone slips up.

Some people play for a risk/danger factor; others play for an enjoyable role-playing experience. I remember one night we went out hunting for over 2 hours and we only killed around 5 spawns because we were too busy role-playing to try and power our way through the dungeon. It may be me being a bit paranoid, but it seems like the main beef that people are having is that it's far too easy and fast to hit level 30. Well, if people played their characters like they should and adequately developed them as a personality in the Amia universe as opposed to "I'm an adventurer! Let's go hunt hunt hunt! //XP GRIND LOL!" you'd find it to be much less of a problem I think.

And I don't think the solution lies in trying to scare those people into playing the way you or I think they should role-play. I think the solution is to let them do as they wish and if they choose to develop their characters as personalities, so be it. If they don't, why hinder their enjoyment? We all play for different reasons and we shouldn't try to force other people to play for the same reasons as us.

Quote:

I have to agree with you. I think what some people find "fair", others find "unfair." Just because someone is mad that a person goes out and solo's and dies 30 times and isn't scared to do it because they know they won't face penalties is no valid reason to force a person who very rarely goes out alone and plays it quite safe to face far harsher consequences just because someone slips up.

Umm, I don't know about you, but I consider dying and respawning to the same creature 16 times absolutely immersion breaking. Something tells me that if you are out for that "Enjoyable roleplaying experience", you would understand this.

After the feedback, I'm leaning towards decreasing or removing the time penalty in the Fugue. I think severe status penalties (to mental stats as well, requiring appropriate RP!) and slight movement speed decrease will cripple an oft-dead PC enough to prevent any rough action anyhow. I'm not sure what the majority thinks, though.

IronAngel wrote:

After the feedback, I'm leaning towards decreasing or removing the time penalty in the Fugue. I think severe status penalties (to mental stats as well, requiring appropriate RP!) and slight movement speed decrease will cripple an oft-dead PC enough to prevent any rough action anyhow. I'm not sure what the majority thinks, though.

Again, movement speed decrease:

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

As in: Horribly more OOC annoying than IC penalizing.

And Monks will laugh like you're stupid given they will still walk faster than anyone else.

Okay, reality check:

I've been revived and have a movement speed decrease. I'm now at risk for these considerations:

1) If I respawn near mobs on death, I am required to be ready to fight, and well, which the penalities + slowness on me now will make harder to fight or flee. I'm being epic-screwed to die again.

2) If I'm a target for PvP, and want to avoid it, I'm stuck to non-PvP areas, but will probably really wish I could cross PvP zones to get to the cart for other towns, and most towns anyone can be in have PvP allowed! If somebody hunting me, finds me, I don't get my fair chance to flee. I'm being epic-screwed to die again.

3) Alright, finally, I'm safe. I'm in town. Lets go RP in the nomad. I'll just take an extra 5 minutes to catch up. What did I miss? Oh, we're going back to the square, hang on, I've to to turn around for that. Need to catch the friend in Cordor North? Oh, sure, fifteen minutes please. (A little exaggerated, but I've seen people really going slow from weight limit breaking!)

4) Oh hey, respawned near mobs to rejoin my party. Two of five of us died, we're too hurt to finish the run. Let's back-track out. Just run ahead of us, run back, run ahead, run back, we're still coming. Like bleeding snails. While trying to get away before respawn mobs.

5) Yeah... Think I'm just more epic-screwed on my safety before I have a chance to get back to being in a safe spot.
And just really annoyed if I'm going to try and RP off that time and I can't keep up with anyone, who get annoyed having to wait on me.
And yes, I know poeple tend to "Stand and talk" but I constantly fight that if my character wants to get someplace; he walks-and-talks!

Torzeng wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

After the feedback, I'm leaning towards decreasing or removing the time penalty in the Fugue. I think severe status penalties (to mental stats as well, requiring appropriate RP!) and slight movement speed decrease will cripple an oft-dead PC enough to prevent any rough action anyhow. I'm not sure what the majority thinks, though.

Again, movement speed decrease:

AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!

As in: Horribly more OOC annoying than IC penalizing.

And Monks will laugh like you're stupid given they will still walk faster than anyone else.

Okay, reality check:

I've been revived and have a movement speed decrease. I'm now at risk for these considerations:

1) If I respawn near mobs on death, I am required to be ready to fight, and well, which the penalities + slowness on me now will make harder to fight or flee. I'm being epic-screwed to die again.

2) If I'm a target for PvP, and want to avoid it, I'm stuck to non-PvP areas, but will probably really wish I could cross PvP zones to get to the cart for other towns, and most towns anyone can be in have PvP allowed! If somebody hunting me, finds me, I don't get my fair chance to flee. I'm being epic-screwed to die again.

3) Alright, finally, I'm safe. I'm in town. Lets go RP in the nomad. I'll just take an extra 5 minutes to catch up. What did I miss? Oh, we're going back to the square, hang on, I've to to turn around for that. Need to catch the friend in Cordor North? Oh, sure, fifteen minutes please. (A little exaggerated, but I've seen people really going slow from weight limit breaking!)

4) Oh hey, respawned near mobs to rejoin my party. Two of five of us died, we're too hurt to finish the run. Let's back-track out. Just run ahead of us, run back, run ahead, run back, we're still coming. Like bleeding snails. While trying to get away before respawn mobs.

5) Yeah... Think I'm just more epic-screwed on my safety before I have a chance to get back to being in a safe spot.
And just really annoyed if I'm going to try and RP off that time and I can't keep up with anyone, who get annoyed having to wait on me.
And yes, I know poeple tend to "Stand and talk" but I constantly fight that if my character wants to get someplace; he walks-and-talks!

That is one major inconvenience.. i like it

I see the point of this to make people more cautiouse of there actions, stop the rush in not caring of the consequences or lack there of. This will do that,and it doesnt break immersion

Well, I think the idea is that you're supposed to be screwed if you get in danger again. The Respawn on spot of death should be removed anyway.

I think points 1, 2 and 4 are desireable consequences. It's what I'm aiming at.

3 and 5 are more an issue with idiot players. I tend to play with patient folk who put RP before haste. We can't hope to change that kind of attitude if we cater to it.

The penalties should be minor... initially. You should be able to turn and fight your way out of the dungeon while only slightly debilitated (and who does that anyway? most people will just port out. If you actually go back on your tracks, you're probably a serious RPer who will work with the penalties).

The penalties are intended to make you more cautious, to add some actual fear to the thought of dying. To make things challenging. You need to watch each others' backs and play smart, because dying will make things harder for the party as a whole (and to encourage you not to solo). And if you've been downed two or three times in a short period... you really need to rethink those plans for a dungeon crawl. If you've been PvP'd, then you either want to lie low or you want to have friends with you when you go out because you're not in peak condition.

As I see it, the penalties will reduce foolhardiness, soloing, and grinding in general, make people more cautious of PvP (or at least when/how they do it) and also give some incentive to try other sorts of RP (plotting, job system, or just bitching in the local tavern about how that shark tried to chew off your leg last time you went swimming). Ultimately it may slightly reduce the money coming into the economy and the rate of level advance. Maybe.

...

As far as movement penalties specifically, I think that my proposal (or Iron's, as they're pretty similar except in the details) would take care of that by having a chance of lowering strength. If you are encumbered, you will be slowed. That being said, I could go with a flat 10% movement penalty, regardless of the amount of injury, but nothing that scales with amount of damage. It should be an inconvenience, not a serious irritant.

"I dont need to outrun the monster, I just need to outrun you" :twisted:

Death Penalties (no permadeath talk here!)

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