AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - ... so you thought permadeath was controversial? HAK time!

Extracted roughly half the thigh/shin/feet parts of CEP, btw. 2.3 MB in total, part of it is animal legs, though. Handy for making critters but certainly not something you'll be able to use.

Goat legs for Tiefers!

*cough* Can we get more Robes please? the Bioware ones look like 2d plastic sheets, and it's really hard to look like a mage using the clothing options.

Thanks!

IronAngel wrote:

It's not acknowledging the possible scenario that's nonsense. It's reading too much into that that's nonsense. You don't know, so it's pointless to declare what will happen if we do this.

If you have new hard evidence, you're welcome to present it. If not, it's about time to stop being so afraid of every change and so negative about our glorious future.

There are a few valid concerns, but they don't seem anywhere major enough to outweigh the good. Potential technical problems will be revealed in the testing process, so that's no argument at this point.

I ask that you remember everyone you are talking to here on the forums and asking opinions of this change is already a member of the community. Asking us if we want new stuff added to our playground that we know and love already is surefire yes.

It -would- be a display of irrational behaviour to think anyone for which this would be a minor inconvienence for downloading would be against it from a personal standpoint on that fact alone. I have no problem with downloading, using them, and installing them in any capacity. I have a feeling Disco and the team will -do it proper- if it is introduced.

... I'm concerned about adding haks because of a different reason. I'm trying to look at it from the 'guy in the other pair shoes that hasn't tried Amia yet' position. I could ask you for the same standard of hard evidence to prove that putting them on won't doom the server, I won't as I feel that saying so is unfair.

What evidence we DO have is that the amount of new people playing NWN these days is limited. Wanting to further restrict possible foot-traffic on an already limited commodity of feet seems.. unwise and illogical to me.

I have seen first hand evidence point to having missed some players if we did have them, even recently. I know I would be one of the ones that would have skipped past Amia if it had been haked.

This does not omit the possibility that we have missed out on others because we do not have haks, or the possibility we would still possess some we do no longer if we had added them sooner.

I will be fair and say I have also seen people say they don't wish to try a nwn server if it lacks CEP, but that is something that seems quite unlikely to come to Amia.

I also will say..I'm not negative on every change, clearly evidenced by my discussion on the Pally/BG saves/Devcrit thread, and Permadeath thread. I am just stubborn about some things. I'll take the hint, and let my point on this one rest with this post.

I'm cool with HAKs, for my input. Bring it on.

If you search for robes on NWVault you won't see much of interest, sorry to say.

Wilagins wrote:

My likey hacks, they make the servers I've played on with them alot more alive. Obviously they aren't required for my enjoyment since I only play here now but I have a couple questions.

1. Where does this $2 for the hacks descussion come from?

My internet connexion >.> To put that in perspective, it's 4c per MB.

Drakos_Vek wrote:

I am fine with HAKs, aslong as they all fit the FR setting, so naturally, I am against the Greek stuff. However, I am fully against most of the helmets mentioned and things like it that give the impression of surrealist weaponary and armor. Say NAY to oversized weaponary like they have in WoW >_>

I definitely agree with this. And some of the female armour *shudders* they'd be better protected with a full-body coat of tissue paper.

Also a question - does this mean fixes to game mechanics that got the answer 'would need a hak' can get done (e.g. Dev Crit activating only on a certain amount of damage)?

All I can say is yes. But.. I think this should be kept 50 MB.. I know we -want- tons of stuff.. But still thinking of those people we might never meet. I love new players, especially when they already played PnP D&D.

Go for it.

Dwagin wrote:

I'm trying to look at it from the 'guy in the other pair shoes that hasn't tried Amia yet' position. I could ask you for the same standard of hard evidence to prove that putting them on won't doom the server, I won't as I feel that saying so is unfair.

What evidence we DO have is that the amount of new people playing NWN these days is limited. Wanting to further restrict possible foot-traffic on an already limited commodity of feet seems.. unwise and illogical to me.

Checklist:

Is it easy enough to find the server on which the HAKs are located?

Is it easy enough to then download them?

Is it easy to install them?

Are there any bugs after installation that could cause a newbie to tear their hear out and delete those HAKs from hard disk, swearing never to play on that server again?

In the end, you have to weigh the amount of foot traffic you're going to retain by passing those checks (i.e. Yes, yes, yes, no) against the traffic you'll lose by having HAKs at all.

Just because a server has a HAK, doesn't mean to say that someone will give up and go someplace else. They may play a server which they have HAKs or CEP for, bookmarking the website to visit later. Hell, it's even possible to play NWN while downloading HAKs, if you aren't saturating your bandwidth. You can also (though I don't recommend it) install HAKs while NWN is still running. How cool is that?

People are motivated to try servers because they sound cool and interesting, or because they've been recommended. Yes, the not being able to get in straight away is a barrier, but given how download speeds have improved since NWN was released, it's becoming less of one. Rather, the inability to get any information at all on what a server is like, that can be a considerable barrier, which is why there are plenty of NWN servers that are empty because they have no forums, or not even a website.

The population of players on NWN may not be huge, but that doesn't mean to say that players statically cling to one server all the time. The new players are not always people that have just picked up NWN Diamond and are playing it for the first time. They are also players who've had NWN since release and continue to get their value for money. As such, they will check out servers, and they won't necessarily have an aversion to HAKs.

HAK! Woo!
100% yes yes yes!

And I also laughed when you brang this up again. Knew it was gonna happen. Just get over it people, let the man have his shinies.

And you know what, I'm gonna say it. Stop using the "I don't want HAKs because new people may not join." excuse. It's a load of bull. You don't want haks because you don't want haks. No other excuse. It has nothing to do with new players, espically given most online games these days require around 100MB's of download to play online. It's only because YOU don't want Haks.

Don't hide behind statistics that have been pulled out of thin air either. There is no way to know that new players aren't willing to download stuff to come on the server. Your no longer new, so you can't suggest that old statistics are still relevent.

Stop hiding behind stuff and front up. People WANT haks for themselves, people DON'T want haks for themselves. It's purely selfish on both sides. I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I get pretty damned fed up with people around here not stating exactly what's the case, and instead hiding behind thousands of other reasons.

After all, you've had your bloody stagnent limited Amia for five years now, it's time for a change.

I agree about online games relying on downloads to keep them fresh and exciting, and they don't suffer a fall-off of subscribers because of it. People even take advantage of standalone patch installers distributed before patch day in order to get things up and running faster.

It's a shame that NWN doesn't have it's own built-in web browser, as that would have simplified the HAK installation process a lot.

As long as it's being added to both servers, I have no objections.

I'll toss in my hat in support for adding more cloths. Also, I'd like to see some more weapon and shield models added, if possible. Those three things are the major three things I'd like to see added, as a player.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

I vote for 100MB, if the extra room means we can have the Deity Cloaks.... :idea:

YES! The first thing that came to mind for me when I saw this topic was "more faith based stuff!" More deity related cloths and/or shield, says I!

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Also, I'd like to see some more weapon and shield models added, if possible. Those two things are the major two things I'd like to see added, as a player.

See first post. There are new weapons and shields there.

I believe browser type automatic installers do exist. It wouldn't take much actually to make up a custom shortcut that open's an application that uploads from the Amia server before starting the game, then connects directly to Amia-A or B at start up.

Okay okay, I finally got the webpage showing the 1,000 new icons being suggested... and I ask "Why?"

"Why should I download a hack to add 2MB for 1,000 icons when I am the only person who's every going to see what icon my character is wearing? Is it really that pathetically difficult to just read the name of an item when you pick it up and check it's description if you need to? A new icon really is not going to change the fact you have to read the name of the item and then check the bio if you need to."

Wasted downloading time, wasted data. It's all eye-candy and nothing you can actually show off. The only visual aid you get from it is on a personal level, or maybe if you show it in a trade window. Adds nothing, nothing at all, to the environment of gameplay.

I consider that far far far less valuable that adding clothing; which I already consider far less valuable than adding Tilesets.

Well, for one, eye-candy is what Disco is looking for I believe. Besides, that also helps him organize things. Though I wouldn't object to leaving that out for more clothing.

I think content in the pack should be left up to the dev and dm team. They seem to have done a very good job as it is, and honestly if it's left up to the community nothing will ever get done.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

I think content in the pack should be left up to the dev and dm team. They seem to have done a very good job as it is, and honestly if it's left up to the community nothing will ever get done.

He speaks truth!

Go right ahead! Never know if you don't try.

... as long as there are like step by step instructions for those who are technology retarded that have no clue about haks and the like :oops:

Haks are no different from your override files, except a different ending title and folder. A hak file will look like, "nameofhak.hak" and will go in a folder labelled Hak, or Haks, I can't remember which off the top of my head.

I see, Well since i've played Amia for 3 years + with out having the Heads and Hands pack thingo I should probably look into that.

I have downloaded CEP2.3 and other haks for other servers. However, I'll only do that if I think there is a chance I'll actually play there on a semi-regular basis. I will only d/l haks on a strong recommendation from several people that I might enjoy the server, which also usually means that people I know play there - that is, I do it for the community. I would not initially d/l a hak if there were hak-free servers with decent player counts, at least for months or more of checking out the 'free' options.

We are getting new players, and they are coming from somewhere, so I dont think it's fair to say they arent out there. I'm sure that Disco or someone could tell us the average number of new logins per week or something. Might it be worthwhile to run a poll for, say, players who have come to Amia in the last 6 months and ask them why they decided to check us out? Options could include:

- high player count
- GameSpy category
- lack of haks
- personal recommendation
- a review (eg. on a website)
- saw our forums
- saw the AmiaWiki
- random choice/Google hit/etc.
- other

I think that adding haks will restrict our accessibility, even if we make it ultra-easy to download & install - some people dont understand haks or are leery of them or just dont want more stuff on their hard drives.

I'm not saying we shouldnt do it, just that we will lose new recruits.

I'd also say no null helms/cloaks/armour and allow helms as hoods. There are lots of good clothing options in the CEP/JenX/Lilista, but there's obviously a lot of ... other ... stuff there too. Still, clothes crafting is fun!

I don't think that argument really holds up in this day Xavi, no offense.

How many of our players never never download anything off the internet? I'm confident in saying that it will be a strong minority. I'm pretty sure that in the end, people will take chances of trying new things when they have to. Otherwise, they won't. Haks are easy, are good, and are commonplace on other thriving, healthy, nwn server communities. I don't think we are at risk of losing people, rather, stand to gain people who have shunned because of our lack of haks.

Xaviera wrote:

I'd also say no null helms/cloaks/armour and allow helms as hoods. There are lots of good clothing options in the CEP/JenX/Lilista, but there's obviously a lot of ... other ... stuff there too. Still, clothes crafting is fun!

Agreed. Also allow hats as helmets. I want hats.

Phearnun wrote:

Xaviera wrote:

I'd also say no null helms/cloaks/armour and allow helms as hoods. There are lots of good clothing options in the CEP/JenX/Lilista, but there's obviously a lot of ... other ... stuff there too. Still, clothes crafting is fun!

Agreed. Also allow hats as helmets. I want hats.

I don't think you can do hats as helmets, but there is a robe option in CEP for hats. Also, Ravenloft has a hak that uses your cloak slot for a hat, no idea where to find it though.

Last edited by ticket on Thu, Dec 17 2009, 2:32 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Is there a hak that could extend what a server could do to classes, feats, and spells?

Something like a one time hak that would give the dev team more control and creativity to be able to create and modify any classes, feats, spells, etc.? Something that whatever X or Y idea we come up with will be possible without saying, "not possible, it's hard coded, or we'll need a new hak"?

Open helms! So you can actually see a persons face when they wear it would be excellent, since we are suggesting idea's I mean.

ticket wrote:

Is there a hak that could extend what a server could do to classes, feats, and spells?

Something like a one time hak that would give the dev team more control and creativity to be able to create and modify any classes, feats, spells, etc.? Something that whatever X or Y idea we come up with will be possible without saying, "not possible, it's hard coded, or we'll need a new hak"?

You'd have to have a hak that has specific specifications for each and every single class, feat, spell, etc. You can't just create on the fly ingame.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Open helms! So you can actually see a persons face when they wear it would be excellent, since we are suggesting idea's I mean.

Also, didnt mean to skip this. I've seen a hak like that somewhere else, but it was really glitchy. By that I mean, hairstyles would clip out of the back of it, and would look really bad with most heads.

as long as you make it incredibly easy to download, I'm for it. The heads and hands were easy, if I remember correctly. If I can click a link and do obvious "next"s, "continue"s, and "save"s, we're golden.

does this mean you may also re-open the debate on Hawsies?

a hak that makes them work the way you want could be made and added to the rest?

Last edited by Logicality on Thu, Dec 17 2009, 3:14 AM, edited 1 time in total.

(On my phone, so not looking past first page - sorry if this has been said before)

I've suggsted this before: add a "gateway" server instance that doesn't use haks, throw a few example areas in it. Gives newcomers something to see, and thus some actual incentive to DL the hak.

maughter wrote:

does this mean you may also re-open the debate on Hawsies?

a hak that makes them work the way you want could be made and added to the rest?

I would never support allowing hosses to run wild on amia... everyone gets one and it becomes a wierd fad. paladin influx... blech...

No horses. Never. No.

Extreme lag death.

Only if you use the Bioware ones. There are ones that have been made by the community which aren't laggy.

Also, Advanced Combat Phenotypes 4.0 must be added. IT MUST.

ok i read most of this
and so far i have to say that I for one would have passed up amia had it required haks. i came from some stupid arena style server and i came to the RP servers. this is the first one i found with people on it that i liked that required no downloading
if haks are added i think that new players will pass this server up
BUT how many new players do we need? rly? not much. any new players we get should be from word of mouth anyway, and then haks will be no problem
will old players want to DL these or rather just walk away? as its seen from the reaction on this thread, were ready! give us de haks lebowski!
I will of course DL them, BUT BUT BUT i demand that the instalation be made SIMPLE and easy. I dont know crap about this and ive only just managed to add the hands and heads modles after hours of yelling at the monitor. so if we can make this easy peasy it will save my head from aches.
I am happy with any content chosen to be added, but i would prefer to see more TILE SETS and PLACEABLES instead of a majority of customizable items for PCs. as was said, we need more enviornment and depth to areas as apposed to items. we already have a pretty great choice to choose from and imagination. I for one have made a great roman looking PC so those saying the greek stuff is needed? not true. and we wont be habing legions of romans anyway. just saying, use your imagination, and for the rest, HAKS!

tsukasa1991 wrote:

ok i read most of this
and so far i have to say that I for one would have passed up amia had it required haks. i came from some stupid arena style server and i came to the RP servers. this is the first one i found with people on it that i liked that required no downloading
if haks are added i think that new players will pass this server up
BUT how many new players do we need? rly? not much. any new players we get should be from word of mouth anyway, and then haks will be no problem
will old players want to DL these or rather just walk away? as its seen from the reaction on this thread, were ready! give us de haks lebowski!
I will of course DL them, BUT BUT BUT i demand that the instalation be made SIMPLE and easy. I dont know crap about this and ive only just managed to add the hands and heads modles after hours of yelling at the monitor. so if we can make this easy peasy it will save my head from aches.
I am happy with any content chosen to be added, but i would prefer to see more TILE SETS and PLACEABLES instead of a majority of customizable items for PCs. as was said, we need more enviornment and depth to areas as apposed to items. we already have a pretty great choice to choose from and imagination. I for one have made a great roman looking PC so those saying the greek stuff is needed? not true. and we wont be habing legions of romans anyway. just saying, use your imagination, and for the rest, HAKS!

Maryn wrote:

Haks are no different from your override files, except a different ending title and folder. A hak file will look like, "nameofhak.hak" and will go in a folder labelled Hak, or Haks, I can't remember which off the top of my head.

Don't be scared of haks people, its just a file in a folder, just like your overrides, thats it.

Horses for the win, I believe...

Besides, they aren't that broken, they're just as broken as Tumble with the Ride skill, no more.

I guess I don't know, but they can't be more laggy than normal summonses.

doooooooooooooo ittttt

Murex wrote:

Allrigh.

Don't know if I should be smiling or frowning.

QFE

Still how I feel on all of this.

Smile, it's change. Change is good. It means new horizons, new challenges and new benefits. A brand new bright future.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

HAK! Woo!
100% yes yes yes!

And I also laughed when you brang this up again. Knew it was gonna happen. Just get over it people, let the man have his shinies.

And you know what, I'm gonna say it. Stop using the "I don't want HAKs because new people may not join." excuse. It's a load of bull. You don't want haks because you don't want haks. No other excuse. It has nothing to do with new players, espically given most online games these days require around 100MB's of download to play online. It's only because YOU don't want Haks.

Don't hide behind statistics that have been pulled out of thin air either. There is no way to know that new players aren't willing to download stuff to come on the server. Your no longer new, so you can't suggest that old statistics are still relevent.

Stop hiding behind stuff and front up. People WANT haks for themselves, people DON'T want haks for themselves. It's purely selfish on both sides. I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I get pretty damned fed up with people around here not stating exactly what's the case, and instead hiding behind thousands of other reasons.

After all, you've had your bloody stagnent limited Amia for five years now, it's time for a change.

Actually its not what you call bull, if I was not already a player on Amia and have found it to be a decent RP server I would not DL a Hak just to try it out, as it stands now I would because I like the server.

Not everyone who plays has a high speed connection, I for one am on dialup and cant get high speed where I live so it still will be time consuming for me to get the hak. Do not dismiss those of us who are in this situation or think this way about trying other servers.

Even with all the new eye candy and a few extra items will not solve RPing content, it will still be the same server with the same problems just with some extra goodies. In time all those extra goodies will become boring to those who are bored now, it’s a temp solution only that will help out those already here but would really have little affect to new comers wanting to RP or learn to RP for the first time.

I am not giving out any statistics at all, just going by what I know I would have done if I seen Amia needed a hak to be DLed before I came to play here and as you have seen I am not the only one who said they wouldn’t have been playing here if it had a hak at the time they joined.

There is no hiding behind other reasons with me, I put it out there how I see it. Its actually very arrogant for you to say otherwise, just because that’s how you think and would do doesn’t mean everyone else does or thinks the same way. There are those who are not selfish and do not go with only what they will like but also look at what others may like or dislike

Will this hak actually improve the overall RP of the server or just be basic eye candy for existing players? What else can be done to improve the RP and excitement on Amia? Perhaps a redo of the job system? The Factions? The shops? The portal system? More player controlled economy or political systems? The hak that is coming may indeed help but if that’s all that’s going to be done then I can see those that are now bored get bored later on after the newness of this hak wears off. Go ahead with the hak but also address some other issues as well.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Smile, it's change. Change is good. It means new horizons, new challenges and new benefits. A brand new bright future.

Means more things I'm required to shove into my computer just to try and kick back and play.

And it's more the:

Disco wants this for tilesets and environment improvements

Players are hounding left-and-right for more space alloted to cram in more clothing options.

I feel like the first post was hardly read though. Even on page 1 you immediately see a spamfest of "add this too for helms" "and this for invisible panties" "and this for themes of aquaman" when that isn't what our Chicken o' Chickens brough up Haks for.

No offense, but Disco isn't the allmighty God of infinite Development-wisdom.

He's good, don't deny that. But let's not make more of it than it is.

Some people are less adoptable to change.

100 mb is shit in today's online world. Computer games included.

Godo wrote:

Selvec Darkon wrote:

HAK! Woo!
100% yes yes yes!

And I also laughed when you brang this up again. Knew it was gonna happen. Just get over it people, let the man have his shinies.

And you know what, I'm gonna say it. Stop using the "I don't want HAKs because new people may not join." excuse. It's a load of bull. You don't want haks because you don't want haks. No other excuse. It has nothing to do with new players, espically given most online games these days require around 100MB's of download to play online. It's only because YOU don't want Haks.

Don't hide behind statistics that have been pulled out of thin air either. There is no way to know that new players aren't willing to download stuff to come on the server. Your no longer new, so you can't suggest that old statistics are still relevent.

Stop hiding behind stuff and front up. People WANT haks for themselves, people DON'T want haks for themselves. It's purely selfish on both sides. I don't mean to sound like an ass, but I get pretty damned fed up with people around here not stating exactly what's the case, and instead hiding behind thousands of other reasons.

After all, you've had your bloody stagnent limited Amia for five years now, it's time for a change.

Actually its not what you call bull, if I was not already a player on Amia and have found it to be a decent RP server I would not DL a Hak just to try it out, as it stands now I would because I like the server.

Not everyone who plays has a high speed connection, I for one am on dialup and cant get high speed where I live so it still will be time consuming for me to get the hak. Do not dismiss those of us who are in this situation or think this way about trying other servers.

Even with all the new eye candy and a few extra items will not solve RPing content, it will still be the same server with the same problems just with some extra goodies. In time all those extra goodies will become boring to those who are bored now, it’s a temp solution only that will help out those already here but would really have little affect to new comers wanting to RP or learn to RP for the first time.

I am not giving out any statistics at all, just going by what I know I would have done if I seen Amia needed a hak to be DLed before I came to play here and as you have seen I am not the only one who said they wouldn’t have been playing here if it had a hak at the time they joined.

There is no hiding behind other reasons with me, I put it out there how I see it. Its actually very arrogant for you to say otherwise, just because that’s how you think and would do doesn’t mean everyone else does or thinks the same way. There are those who are not selfish and do not go with only what they will like but also look at what others may like or dislike

Will this hak actually improve the overall RP of the server or just be basic eye candy for existing players? What else can be done to improve the RP and excitement on Amia? Perhaps a redo of the job system? The Factions? The shops? The portal system? More player controlled economy or political systems? The hak that is coming may indeed help but if that’s all that’s going to be done then I can see those that are now bored get bored later on after the newness of this hak wears off. Go ahead with the hak but also address some other issues as well.

First off, it won't be the same server with the same problems, HAK's allow for fixes to existing problems that weren't possible before. They allow the ability to fix hard coded issues with the NWN game, fix the problems previously in place.

It will also improve how we RP with each other as new systems can be introduced, as well as new environments. It allows us to engage in new areas of RP that we could never do before, and allows us to also solve all these nagging issues in place for so so long.

As for calling me arrogant, sure why not, I am arrogant. I feel I have a right to be, and probably so does anyone else who has sat on Amia for four years and watched progress get blocked time and time again by a few people who simply aren't willing to give even the slightest change a chance. I've seen what happens when the Amia community "Discusses things". They put obstacles in their way, and blab on about it forever, coming up with more and more excuses, ending up with nothing ever being done to finalize the issue. So yes, I am arrogant about this, and I know how this works, having seen it time and time again, and I'd rather cut to the chase so maybe this time we can get this finalized for once.

Edit: Incase you were unaware, this conversation has taken place before. The amount of BS that came out of peoples mouths about HAKS was amazing. It was clear the majority of people didn't know what they were talking about, and were pulling "facts" straight out of their behind. The reason HAKs never went ahead was simply because the amount of sheer uninformed opinion that spammed the thread. That's the way I saw it in that case anyway.

Torzeng wrote:

Okay okay, I finally got the webpage showing the 1,000 new icons being suggested... and I ask "Why?"

"Why should I download a hack to add 2MB for 1,000 icons when I am the only person who's every going to see what icon my character is wearing? Is it really that pathetically difficult to just read the name of an item when you pick it up and check it's description if you need to? A new icon really is not going to change the fact you have to read the name of the item and then check the bio if you need to."

Wasted downloading time, wasted data. It's all eye-candy and nothing you can actually show off. The only visual aid you get from it is on a personal level, or maybe if you show it in a trade window. Adds nothing, nothing at all, to the environment of gameplay.

I consider that far far far less valuable that adding clothing; which I already consider far less valuable than adding Tilesets.

Torzeng, I do not mean to be rude but... I am sorry, you have no idea what you are saying.

When I was making the second batch of deity rings I almost gave it up because the stupid icons were limited. There were like some... 80+ deities* and only some 30 icons*. It got boring for me too fast and I was actualy glad when some people volunteered to help.

I was almost giving it all up because I was annoyed, tired, frustrated and bored of the same icons over and over.

* Mind, I do not remember the exact numbers, but it was a lot of deities and barely half that number of icons.

You can take your arrogance out of the thread then, Selvec. Yes, you disagree with perspectives. Good for you.

Quit the snipes at the playerbase and those who -aren't- enthused about HAK's.

I suppose pointing out that I was replying to being sniped at would land on deaf ears.

... so you thought permadeath was controversial? HAK time!

Who is online