AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - ... so you thought permadeath was controversial? HAK time!

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

So, I'll have to download poo to play Amia? Sounds... troublesome.

You obviously did not check out the links before posting.

:roll:

Murex wrote:

I must really sound like an ass to all of you DMs for some reason.

Nah, don't worry,

Why not just make the CEP a requirement for playing on the server? It's very widely used, so it wouldn't have the 'obscurity' factor of having a specialized hak. Most of the things I saw in those links are included in the CEP, with more to go. It might be a larger set of files but overall it appears simpler to use.

CEp is a tad big, and somewhat buggy from what i hear. thena gain, I already have CEP 2.1 for use on others erevrs, so i personally wouldnt mind. But I bet a whole lot of others would.

Because "widely accepted" doesn't mean that those 1Kb a second Aussies wouldn't have to spent the rest of the year downloading. Besides, I'd deactivate 2/3 of CEP because it's utter crap.

Dev Disco wrote:

Because "widely accepted" doesn't mean that those 1Kb a second Aussies wouldn't have to spent the rest of the year downloading. Besides, I'd deactivate 2/3 of CEP because it's utter crap.

Secconded

http://vnmedia.ign.com/nwvault.ign.com/ ... ullres.jpg
this please

I have had a thought about the Greek stuff. I think I won't add them. It's not just a matter of size but also what you want as a setting and I really don't fancy the image of some Greek hoplites running through Cordor. Our setting is basically a mix between standard D&D fansaty and medieval NW Europe and I think we should stick with adding stuff that augments that setting. And exception is Khem and I do like to add some styles for that.

Btw, this means Disco is fully recovered from his mental breakdown, in case someone was wondering.

Goody <3

Then I guess this is a welcome back thread as well now! It's good to have you back Disco!

Well, Khem is next to Chessenta and the story goes that a good deal of Nes'ek's western population (including the Lathanderites) are originally warriors from Chessenta. Which makes them Greek in style. You'd probably see a lot of Sumer, Egyptian and Greek architecture and fashion on Khem, with a bunch of pirates. But it's a futile hope that the styles would only or mainly be used in the appropriate cultural setting, so it's probably best not to include them.

I'm perfectly fine with this as long as we get...

MOAR CLOTHES PLZ PLZ

*ahem* And everything is extensively tested and only top notch quality.

I doubt that haks are going to change the server in a negative way. So I'm all for some new clothes and customization!

I'll try to review the related links when I get back and offer a more cogniscant opinion then. (going to work out my Cardio now)

Just went through some of the CEP tailoring options... and let's say I didn't get too enthusiastic. What I saw was quite a step lower in quality than the standard NWN stuff. I just looked at chest and shoulder models, though.

I am sorry to disagree with all this but one of the reasons that Amia as well as Arelith are the top played servers is because they are Hak free. New potential players who come to check out the servers to see where they wish to play do not want to waste the time to DL haks just to see if they want to play there, so they will go look someplace else.

Isn’t Amia having a slight problem now with lack of players? Why compound that problem by turning away potential new players? I came here, and am happy for it, when I left Arelith only because it was Hak free, if it had Haks then I wouldn’t have even bothered with DLing a Hak, not knowing if I would like it or not. Now that I am here and like the server I will most likely DL the small haks to keep on playing, small because I can only get dialup where I live, but as a new player I know I wouldn’t have. I am glad at least its not CEP that has to be DLed, 30 hour DL for me, because then I would have had to leave a server I liked.

Dev Disco wrote:

Just went through some of the CEP tailoring options... and let's say I didn't get too enthusiastic. What I saw was quite a step lower in quality than the standard NWN stuff. I just looked at chest and shoulder models, though.

Like I said before:

Small file size.

Tilesets and placeables = Good for enriching the environment!!

Clothes and Customizables on the PC = far far far secondary to look at after Tilesets and Placeables because we already have a crudton and we're going to have horribly slews of this-or-that-and-they-got-this-so-I-deserve-that-because-too ....

Last edited by Dervish on Wed, Dec 16 2009, 19:34 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I just recently downloaded the overrides that were listed in the recent forum topic. That was a big deal for me, and frankly not all that easy.

I've never downloaded a hak and would be nervous to do so. I know that I came to Amia because it didn't require them. I imagine Amia would miss out on a fair number of new players as a result of the hak requirement. I guess that's the price we're willing to pay for this added atmosphere, maybe in the hope that it would attract new players who are accustomed to haks and know the benefits they provide? *shrug*

But I do understand the excitement and desire to enrich Amia thru haks. As long as it's idiot proof, I guess I'd have to go along with it.

Dev Disco wrote:

Just went through some of the CEP tailoring options... and let's say I didn't get too enthusiastic. What I saw was quite a step lower in quality than the standard NWN stuff. I just looked at chest and shoulder models, though.

There are a few really nice things in there though. Also nice necks, representing amulets and necklaces, and look at the robes. Some cool skirts and dresses.

Dev Disco wrote:

I have had a thought about the Greek stuff. I think I won't add them. It's not just a matter of size but also what you want as a setting and I really don't fancy the image of some Greek hoplites running through Cordor. Our setting is basically a mix between standard D&D fansaty and medieval NW Europe and I think we should stick with adding stuff that augments that setting. And exception is Khem and I do like to add some styles for that.

Thisx1000.

Must be setting proper! The costumes need to fit the scenery.

PLEASE. Please. .please..pleasepleaseplease! Keep the artistic feel of the setting in mind if we do this.. I was going to come say some stuff on this but Disco seems to have covered it.

New players generally don't mind downloading something, what they mind is having to look for it.
Guide them straight to the HAK and there probably won't be a real problem.

Dwagin wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

I have had a thought about the Greek stuff. I think I won't add them. It's not just a matter of size but also what you want as a setting and I really don't fancy the image of some Greek hoplites running through Cordor. Our setting is basically a mix between standard D&D fansaty and medieval NW Europe and I think we should stick with adding stuff that augments that setting. And exception is Khem and I do like to add some styles for that.

Thisx1000.

Must be setting proper! The costumes need to fit the scenery.

PLEASE. Please. .please..pleasepleaseplease! Keep the artistic feel of the setting in mind if we do this.. I was going to come say some stuff on this but Disco seems to have covered it.

Already answered to that above, though. We have a huge area influenced by the ancient world, and it's my hope that the Lathanderite faction that may pick up there assumes some ancient Greek flavor. But it's no big deal, the armor.

Murex wrote:

Uncle-Opustus wrote:

So, I'll have to download poo to play Amia? Sounds... troublesome.

You obviously did not check out the links before posting.

:roll:

Far too big of a slob to do that, silly.

Yannickbl wrote:

New players generally don't mind downloading something, what they mind is having to look for it.
Guide them straight to the HAK and there probably won't be a real problem.

To be fair, I did mind downloading, thus I found Amia. I'm not sure where you get your stats that new players don't mind downloading. You might not mind it, but others do.

Stuff like this has a great way of helping people find that "breath of fresh air" that is sometimes lacking. Some one once said it in another topic, all about the feeling you got when you first started playing and seeing the new things was total awesome... the haks are a way of bringing that back into the game.

Some of the stuff posted does look very nice, and some... well, not so nice, but I am all for what ever Disco desides to put in. MHO - something is better then nothing.

My likey hacks, they make the servers I've played on with them alot more alive. Obviously they aren't required for my enjoyment since I only play here now but I have a couple questions.

1. Where does this $2 for the hacks descussion come from?

2. Where does the idea there's a "shortage of players" on Amia come from?
I've been here about a month or so and it's probably the most full server I've played on, the only one I've played on that I can't get into sometimes, it's been a few years and I noticed there are only about 2/3 the servers their used to be, but there's still a pile of 0/65 - 1-/65 servers on the list, those are honestly the ones I'd expect to see saying there's a shortage, not a 2 server server that has on average when I see it between 60 and 90 people.

But yes, the more clothing options the better, I've played on a few servers where everyone would come to me to design their female characters clothes because of the way mine looked, and I do get kinda bored seeing the same old outfits. Llista's crafting system was the best for this I think (Yeah it goes with alot of "adult" haks but the clothing customization is insane and you can disable or remove the X rated stuff)

Yannickbl wrote:

New players generally don't mind downloading something, what they mind is having to look for it.
Guide them straight to the HAK and there probably won't be a real problem.

New players do tend to pass up servers that need a DL, after all how do they even know it is worth the DL and they will stick around. The no Hak but great server is a great selling point to have those new players at the least try it out instead of trying out other servers that they do not need to work at to play. Most new players of NWN are more curious and would pass up servers that they can not just hop into and start playing so please consider that.

It all depends on what your wanting for Amia, lesser player base but more content for the established players or more of a player base with les content. Remember now, newer players to the game do not need the extra content because they will be in awe anyways for what is there and the RP they receive.

If you're looking for a server, are you going to pass on that server which has 65 people online & clearly tells you where to download a (relatively small) HAK? =/
I wouldn't, and I know plenty of people who wouldn't either (If they'd still play nwn that is

)
And, new players to nwn? Those people are quite rare I'd think.

Dev Disco wrote:

Just went through some of the CEP tailoring options... and let's say I didn't get too enthusiastic. What I saw was quite a step lower in quality than the standard NWN stuff. I just looked at chest and shoulder models, though.

I'd disagree with that sentiment.

A character from a CEP server, with all the tailoring goodness.

Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3

As far as I recall was this outfit made with a Robe, the goodyness of some of them were mentioned before already, and the neckpart, which now offers many fun things.

And yes, the hood is an alternate helm Mesh. Looks rather nice too, perhaps implement it as well?

This speculation is nonsense: you simply have no idea what effect it will have. It might make old players return, it might lure new players into a refreshed server, it might make current players excited to stick around and invite others. It may be that some players will pass a server with HAKs, but it's also very possible that others will choose it precisely because it's big and has a manageable amount of custom content.

We have been aware of the potential loss of players for years. There is simply no evidence to show the loss will be greater than the gain. To make a decision based on anecdotes, and refrain from action because there might be negative consequences (the severity of which is unknown and quite likely negligible), is quite silly.

You don't know, we don't know, and there's only one way to find out.

HellScourge wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

Just went through some of the CEP tailoring options... and let's say I didn't get too enthusiastic. What I saw was quite a step lower in quality than the standard NWN stuff. I just looked at chest and shoulder models, though.

I'd disagree with that sentiment.

A character from a CEP server, with all the tailoring goodness.

Picture 1
Picture 2
Picture 3

As far as I recall was this outfit made with a Robe, the goodyness of some of them were mentioned before already, and the neckpart, which now offers many fun things.

And yes, the hood is an alternate helm Mesh. Looks rather nice too, perhaps implement it as well?

That's a robe, those are in. I doubt about this one, though. It's a bit over the top.

I always thought those would be good for Drow, since those look like spider legs <.<

The above post :

IronAngel wrote:

This speculation is nonsense: you simply have no idea what effect it will have. It might make old players return, it might lure new players into a refreshed server, it might make current players excited to stick around and invite others. It may be that some players will pass a server with HAKs, but it's also very possible that others will choose it precisely because it's big and has a manageable amount of custom content.

We have been aware of the potential loss of players for years. There is simply no evidence to show the loss will be greater than the gain. To make a decision based on anecdotes, and refrain from action because there might be negative consequences (the severity of which is unknown and quite likely negligible), is quite silly.

You don't know, we don't know, and there's only one way to find out.

From another thread :

Kjetta wrote:

We believe we are now losing more players to hardcore servers than social/arena servers.
[...]
Anyways, our working thesis is: NWN-players are growing up, and while the arcade aspects of the game is starting to fade, NWN still stands the test of time as an excellent facilitator for RP. This creates an environment where hardcore/mature RP settings are more likely to survive and thrive than easy-going disney-fied "RP lite" servers. Amia is currently struggeling with an (undeserved?) image as something of the latter.

I believe we can reach a useful conclusion here.
As far as I know, Amia got where it is now by being a server accessible to everyone(among other things); No Haks required, friendly player base, encouraging environment for new nwn players/role-players. Amia was the first server I logged on, without having any experience or knowledge about the kind of RP -or even the world- that we are running. In short, I had no idea how things worked; all I wanted was to play a game and have fun. (That is how I define a "New Player". You'll see that used a lot below.)
Now we are "losing players to more hardcore servers".

I think it is quite obvious that nowadays' NWN players have "matured". That means they are now looking for quality role-play and "serious fun", instead of arcade, pvp/"shoot 'em up" action, something with which Kjetta seems to concur. It also means that they are more *dedicated* to find something that satisfies their needs. People are leaving amia because they think they'll find what our server lacks elsewhere; Therefore, they are looking for something specific. Something they know they'll never find without actually playing for some time.We're not talking about "new" players anymore; In fact, the pool of "new players" has now been exhausted - they are all playing a certain popular MMO... What this game has left, is players who are aware of what good RP is like, have some online experience, and already have a concept of how a nwn server works. That's our target group. Their expectations are high, but they are (most of them at least) similar and predictable.

To sum it up: The NWN player base is NOT growing(or at least, it's growth rate isn't sufficient). So don't worry about "New Players", they aren't around anymore. Focus on the experienced ones, try to satisfy their needs (visual, storytelling, factions, ...). Unfortunately, the goal is to convince people to stop playing on other servers and join Amia-Land, because here it's more fun. Your competitors' players, that's the only pool you can draw players from.

Back to IronAngel...

Quote:

you simply have no idea what effect it will have. It might make old players return, it might lure new players into a refreshed server, it might make current players excited to stick around and invite others. It may be that some players will pass a server with HAKs, but it's also very possible that others will choose it precisely because it's big and has a manageable amount of custom content.

Times have changed. I believe that the remaining nwn players will go through a minimal amount of pain, downloading the HAKs, since they are aware that plain old nwn just can't meet their standards.

Quote:

There's only one way to find out.

That's too true. After reading 3 or 4 threads about "changing amia", be it by introducing permadeath, changing more feats and skills, or adding Haks, I expect to see something change. We can only speculate and hope the change is for the best.
The one thing this server shouldn't do, is remain static.

IronAngel wrote:

This speculation is nonsense: you simply have no idea what effect it will have. It might make old players return, it might lure new players into a refreshed server, it might make current players excited to stick around and invite others. It may be that some players will pass a server with HAKs, but it's also very possible that others will choose it precisely because it's big and has a manageable amount of custom content.

We have been aware of the potential loss of players for years. There is simply no evidence to show the loss will be greater than the gain. To make a decision based on anecdotes, and refrain from action because there might be negative consequences (the severity of which is unknown and quite likely negligible), is quite silly.

You don't know, we don't know, and there's only one way to find out.

If you don't know, I'll hazard in saying that that calling any form of speculation nonsense isn't a good idea.

What I know:

1. I've seen people say that if Amia had haks they'd never have come or tried it.

2. 100mb is nothing to big connections, what about people in south america/austrailia/rural USA where they're on small connections? Would you wager the kind of time to download that stuff, or money to, in some cases, just to 'give it a try'? I'd be reserved in saying I would be hesitant.

I seriously doubt people are just waiting on baited breath on other servers saying, 'You know.. If only Amia had hak's I'd be playing there.. -right now!-. People just won't up and switch because of haks. They change because of community, and like Amia for its community and accessability.

I'm not keen on haks, but it seems the majority is in favor.

I would just ask to keep the haks to a minimum, with things that will actually see much use and be enjoyed by a vast majority, as opposed to niche or gimmick haks.

It's not acknowledging the possible scenario that's nonsense. It's reading too much into that that's nonsense. You don't know, so it's pointless to declare what will happen if we do this. Yes, we are aware of the potential drawback. We have been for years, ever since the word "HAK" was first mentioned. You don't need to tell us that again and again. If you have new hard evidence, you're welcome to present it. If not, it's about time to stop being so afraid of every change and so negative about our glorious future.

Also, you will have downloaded more megabytes in NWN patches than this HAK. Any downloading will be an inconvenience, at worst.

The rational reasons for opposing HAKs of this type are rather few. You may "dislike them" or "be leery about them," you may "think they're a hassle" or "not want to install stuff." None of that is very convincing, though. There are a few valid concerns, but they don't seem anywhere major enough to outweigh the good. Potential technical problems will be revealed in the testing process, so that's no argument at this point.

I will state that I would not likely ever have tried Amia if it had Haks back when I was looking.

But, I'm here now, and both as a player (who would love new armor/shield/weapon looks) and a designer (who agrees with Disco that more tilesets and plc's would really brighten up many a designer's day, including mine), I support adding a Hak.

I have no suggestions for content though. I trust that anything Lord Chicken adds will be of quality and use.

If you can find some Mulhorandi themed stuff (ie egyptian) then I totally agree to Haks.

(I actually found a Wiltun like tile set but desert themed can't find it now dammit)

As far as the pool of new players to NWN being exhausted is false, several times a week while in the chat area I have tried to help out a new player get into the game, many come there asking how to join a game online.

The assumptions that are being ignored or put down are from personal experience as well as what is seen from many new players here as well as on other servers, to ignore that is dangerous for the server at best. I am not saying do not add a Hak to Amia but do not ignore the potential damage it could have on drawing in new players. Amia is among the top three servers, one of which is CEP based and it’s a Spanish server, the other is Arelith, based on players coming to a popular RP server what one do you think they would chose? The one where they can jump right in and play or one that they have to DL a Hak?

Again I am not saying do not add one but do not disregard the fact that one reason Amia and Arelith are huge success is because they are Hak free. Go ahead and make it a Hak based server but also remember that once you do so it is harder to change it back if it starts to fail, please make sure you have a complete pre Hak backup just in case the risk you take doesn’t pan out.

Also, it is not being negative to point out concerns and possible problems, its more negative to ignore such concerns and problems as if there can not be one.

I should point out that these collections of haks will be turned into a Amia pack and will all be right there, everything you need in one pack for the faster connections and broken into volumes for the slower. The players wont have to go and collect anything.

I'm all for it. I have a decent connection, so HAKs aren't an issue for me.

I say go for it! Would be nice to add some variety.

Will they be implemented soon? Are they already here? ...I'm a little lost , though I do like the idea of adding them, adds variety. I just hope i can actually DL this stuff, i usually get frustrated or soemthing and it drives me away, I love Amia, just hope this all goes well

I am fine with HAKs, aslong as they all fit the FR setting, so naturally, I am against the Greek stuff. However, I am fully against most of the helmets mentioned and things like it that give the impression of surrealist weaponary and armor. Say NAY to oversized weaponary like they have in WoW >_>

Also. If this gets done, can all the HAKs used be put in one downloadable file that can be linked from the Amia website?

Theres no set date to when this will be done. This is to give everyone a heads up and an idea of whats to come. Probably in 2010 is my guess.

Drakos_Vek wrote:

I am fine with HAKs, aslong as they all fit the FR setting, so naturally, I am against the Greek stuff. However, I am fully against most of the helmets mentioned and things like it that give the impression of surrealist weaponary and armor. Say NAY to oversized weaponary like they have in WoW >_>

Also. If this gets done, can all the HAKs used be put in one downloadable file that can be linked from the Amia website?

Mahtan Tasadur wrote:

I should point out that these collections of haks will be turned into a Amia pack and will all be right there, everything you need in one pack for the faster connections and broken into volumes for the slower. The players wont have to go and collect anything.

I don't see anything wrong with a hak... Provided it's kept around the 100mb, filled with only useful, nice looking stuff and it's one off. It'd be annoying to have a new hak to download every month. But having new tilesets and placables to deal with... Awesome. New clothes would be nice too, and holdable instruments and such.

In summary, nice idea!

Godo wrote:

Again I am not saying do not add one but do not disregard the fact that one reason Amia and Arelith are huge success is because they are Hak free.

On the other hand, it's possible that being HAK free is a bonus feature, and reputation/word of mouth will actually be enough to retain a large player base.

It's also possible that it's new stuff that keeps players interested. Can you think of another server that has such a busy update log?

You'll know within probably a few days, week tops. So if it does mean drastically less players you can revert, re-think the whole thing, and try again at a later date.

In the end, a lack of updates and massive lack of interest from the community will probably kill a server. But custom content, you can't know until you give it a whirl. Who knows, maybe Amia's HAKs will set such a precedent that they become a standard for the whole community because they give the most bang for byte.

O.O Just when I decided to get myself a life! Boo!

Glad to see you're enthusiastic again, Lord Chicken! Thy wish be done!

AlannaMolov wrote:

I'm perfectly fine with this as long as we get...

MOAR CLOTHES PLZ PLZ

*ahem* And everything is extensively tested and only top notch quality.

This, only think I'm reaaaally against is nulling. If you're wearing a fort 4 cloak, you're wearing a freeking fort 4 cloak.

... so you thought permadeath was controversial? HAK time!

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