AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Gauging interest: FORCED PERMA DEATH!!!!!!

To intone that people not liking Forced Permadeath are assmonkies isn't exactly a segway I was expecting.

As far as I am aware, 'Forced' permadeath is not wanted.

More consequences and more events are wanted.

The possibility of very rewarding events carrying a chance of your character being permanently dead, are also perfectly allowable -IF- the players involved are given the warning.

And some people would rather things just be left well alone with death penalties.

Some want more 'sting' to avoid res-scroll chaining in PVP

Some want more 'sting' for pve death to -force- characters to feel affects from it.

Kjetta wrote:

The notion of personally self-imposed death penalties only speak to individualistic approach to RPing which we should want to end: the notion of "my story". The arguement might seem sound at first glance, but it doesn't really work if you think of RPing in a PW as a communal project, where the fate of your PC greatly impacts the fate of other PCs, where acomplishment, tied to risk, impacts your standing in an adventurer (or whatever faction you belong to) community, and where you truly feel immersed in a world where there are greater forces than your creative self at work.

Self-imposed death penalties also does not work as a source of suspense, because "suspense is a feeling of uncertainty and anxiety about the outcome of certain actions, most often referring to an audience's perceptions in a dramatic work. (...) An audience experience suspense when they expect something bad to happen and have (or believe they have) a superior perspective on events in the drama's hierarchy of knowledge, yet they are powerless to intervene to prevent it from happening." - Wikipedia, on suspense.

Self-imposed death penalties is like trying to tickle or scare yourself, or like balancing on a girder on the floor imagining that if you fall off, you descend into an endless abyss. It doesn't create the desired effect. For suspense to happen, there must be a solid distance between the situation where death occurs and the decision to actually bite the bullet. The decision must be baked into the system, so that death is not experienced as imposed by oneself but by the IC environment.

I understand your point, Kjetta. I think it's quite noble to want a more dynamic world. I still feel that permadeath out of the players hands brings more problems to both the playerbase and the DMs. Note, I didn't say Death is too big, nor maiming, nor forced-hiatus.

It's not that players require to control every single detail about the character after creation. No one's saying that by controling when their character goes bye-bye for good that they don't want interaction to the max from DM's, other players, and Amia itself. The institution of maintaining meaningful deaths and permadeath do not have to go hand in hand.

I am still yet convinced that the forced permadeath of my character in a situation better holds up suspesion of belief for other players any better than barring the character from being played for a month. Your solution of permadeath in situations that somehow are "more serious" than anything else in our world kinda suggests to me the thought of "never being able to play this character again" is the only fear Amians are capable of having, showing, and portraying as IC fear. Using permadeath at that point becomes a cop-out to creating IC fear, but rather relying on some OoC fact to somehow make the IC more "realistic". Which is just non sequitor to me.

In addition, there's still the problem of when you offer it in the middle of a plot. You're trying to lead people to taking this approach at RP by giving them an ultamatum. "Go in here, you take the risk of not being able to play this character forever." The situations may be rare, as hallowed and sacred as you care to make them, but if the player says no, they're undeniabley left with the impression that them not being willing to accept the risk of permadeath to progress the story has somehow led to a less meaningful story. That I have also yet to be convinced otherwise about. Does accepting permadeath over other equally harsh, not-necessarily damningly permanent penalties make me a better roleplayer? Should I be ashamed at saying "no" just because I want to keep playing, even if its just somewhere down the line?

Lastly, before I beat my horse even more dead....yes, he's permadead at this point, ironically... I'd like to point out that this is a game. Has been a game. Will always be a game. I'm reminded of kids playing with action figures in a sandbox and one has his hero smack another in the face. The kid with the smacked superman goes "uUuggh" and falls down, for about a minute. Later he gets up and the other kid who smacked him goes "Nuh uh! You're dead! You're dead, I smacked you!". The other goes "Yeah, but now I'm alive again. Want to play again?" "Nuh uh, you're dead! I stayed alive, I'm the winner, you getting up again means I'm not a superman." "But... it's just a game.. and I pretended for a really long time... can we play again tomorrow?" "No! You're dead, I win, you lost."

Is it really that serious?

I will leave this server if, IF, looting of corpses or dropping of loot upon death or upon death one random item removed from inventory. Don't take my stuff! I can live with the present situation where DM may take your stuff temporartily or even permanently for RP but adding any 'looting' type of function on death I absolutely positively am against.

Dwagin wrote:

I'm a role player, not a screen writer. I play the character, not write their story. I may write their backstory, where they came from, their dreams, asperations.. but I never forget that the DMs are the screenwriters and directors. It's my job to act and react to the situations that my role is placed into according to how I believe they would react.

I am not being hostile here I hope, but this is the absolute opposite position to mine. I cannot see how the DMs can possibly provide this level of interaction to a server of this size, given the DM player ratio. I see myself as a plot advancer, much more than a method actress. If Dwagin's is the prevalent attitude on the server, then I am never going to see it become what I would like.

Note I am not saying one way is better than the other, just that I think myself and Dwagin represent two opposite ends of the spectrum here. I would be very interested in knowing the proportions of those who would like (and, more importantly, who think it is possible to have) a much more PnP style, DM plot driven server, and those who are looking for a more player shapeable world.

The truth of the matter, Dwagin and Didi, is that the DM Team wants Amia's story to be pretty much right smack-dab in the middle of both of your wants. Didi, when I am a player, I really get into being a mover and shaker like you - I try to be low-key about it, but my major goals are to shape and mold the world I live in. My main PC even has a long spiel about how bards were originally called "shapers" and how it is their role in the universe to usher in change...

It is a bit of a challenge to balance it, but we want to give players who like to impact the world the opportunity to do just that. You start it, we roll with it.

However, we DMs also have really neat ideas, and there are still players who like the story to descend upon them out of the blue and to be swaddled in suspense and mystery, surrendering control to a DM.

Stories are not always related to each other, and therefore, I see no reason both cannot exist simultaneously. On a large and on a small scale. I think the problem, though, is that players are so used to the DM Team having a draconian command of the Amian universe that they are afraid to really dig their heels in and make changes.

I will admit that part of the problem for me as a player and a DM is that we really only have one Developer. You want to change the universe consistently, you put a huge workload on one dude. This is not to say that every "change" requires a physical module change, but that is the ideal because then the stamp of your success doesn't require a DM to be present - it is there, whether we are there or not.

I just started reading this thread and have skimmed over it, read allot but not all.

I for one am against perma death, mainly because my character dies allot, not because he has to but mostly because he is meant to be beat 90% of the time. You start to perm death then you will only have a few evil characters of high level and high power, you would also create more of the social type server your trying to cut back on because players will then not risk anything and stay around just socializing or gaining exp through the job system.

Yes players get attached to their characters and that is how it should be, attached and grow their characters in its style and personality. Work on things that will help them to give their characters growth of personality more is better then eliminating the characters.

One thing is indeed make dieing a bit more painful, in PvP and PvM, get rid of the free OOC raises all together and have it where you either have to respawn, loosing twice as much as if was raised by a scroll or spell. Also make it where corpses can be carried so they can be taken to someone that can respawn them.

Concentrate on the RP building even with the job system for those who do not become adventurers. The Job system here is fantastic and extensive yet it lacks usefulness, with such a extensive tool that you created here with the job system it should be allot more useful. What is created through it should, in time, be better that what you can find or buy in NPC merchant shops. Give the job system a overhaul and integrate it for more player use and RP.

From what I have seen here, and do not get me wrong for I really like Amia allot, Amia is a adventure server more then a RP server. Players and NPCs alike always mention the players as adventurers, not citizens, not people, not commoners but only adventurers. Create more RP opportunities then adventuring ones, the DC widget only alerts DMs on at the time of good RP going on, how about make it record in a log who is recommended for good RP even when the DM isn’t on, the DM can then read the log and semi watch those players for rewards when they do arive.

There are many more thinks that can be done to help but I do not think Perma death is one of them.

Yossarin wrote:

The truth of the matter, Dwagin and Didi, is that the DM Team wants Amia's story to be pretty much right smack-dab in the middle of both of your wants. Didi, when I am a player, I really get into being a mover and shaker like you - I try to be low-key about it, but my major goals are to shape and mold the world I live in. My main PC even has a long spiel about how bards were originally called "shapers" and how it is their role in the universe to usher in change...

It is a bit of a challenge to balance it, but we want to give players who like to impact the world the opportunity to do just that. You start it, we roll with it.

However, we DMs also have really neat ideas, and there are still players who like the story to descend upon them out of the blue and to be swaddled in suspense and mystery, surrendering control to a DM.

Stories are not always related to each other, and therefore, I see no reason both cannot exist simultaneously. On a large and on a small scale. I think the problem, though, is that players are so used to the DM Team having a draconian command of the Amian universe that they are afraid to really dig their heels in and make changes.

I will admit that part of the problem for me as a player and a DM is that we really only have one Developer. You want to change the universe consistently, you put a huge workload on one dude. This is not to say that every "change" requires a physical module change, but that is the ideal because then the stamp of your success doesn't require a DM to be present - it is there, whether we are there or not.

Hmm, you're right. There's more going on here than whether players can influence their worlds, or whether thats more a DMs job. The problem behind this thread is that neither DMs or players are able to effect consequence as much as they would like. I didn't see that clearly before. In retrospect, I agree with it being desirable to have an even mix of player and DM influence. Thankyou for providing food for thought.

Last edited by Dwagin on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 15:58 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I also see the world itself as an active force shaping the character and do not discount the things within it from it. These are the forces that pen the story of my character.

As a player, there is -no- way I can be in complete control, at all. In my mind there are only two types of situations, and in neither of them do I, nor should I, have any input in the matter as a person.

1. What is 'within my control' should not be controlled by me, but governed by the way the Role would react and respond. It should not be 'shaped' by personal bias, opinion, or what OOC wishes or intentions there may have been. I check my ego, roll with it, or ..role with it as it were.

2. There are things outside of a character's complete control. Why? Because they are played by powers which neither I, nor my character have power over. Some of these are but in no way is this all of them:

Interactions with the NPCs (DM controlled)
Interactions with the environment. (Server controlled NPCs for PvM)
Interactions with other PCs (from PvP to Best friend/Romantic interest.)
The World at Large (Controlled by the DMs, and possibly shaped by the actions of players)

Those four things I cannot control nor should I attempt to do so as a player. To me it seems like the most egregious form of metagaming. This doesn't preclude my role from attempting to do so, if it is in their intent, or being crushed by the fact they cannot enact, or do not have the power to enact the things they wish.

Godo wrote:

Players and NPCs alike always mention the players as adventurers, not citizens, not people, not commoners but only adventurers. Create more RP opportunities then adventuring ones, the DC widget only alerts DMs on at the time of good RP going on, how about make it record in a log who is recommended for good RP even when the DM isn’t on, the DM can then read the log and semi watch those players for rewards when they do arive.

You are probably referencing the citizens of Cordor here referring to most PCs, blanket, as "adventurers". Don't use that as your concept of the server as a whole. On Amia, we have plenty of PCs who aren't adventurers, who are citizens and more common folks, and who now even have options of levelling that don't involve hunting (although it is painstakingly slow). How the Cordorian citizens speak is a matter of profiling and propaganda...

Dwagin wrote:

To intone that people not liking Forced Permadeath are assmonkies isn't exactly a segway I was expecting.

I'm not sure if that was directed at my post, but that is certainly not what I ment. Not all people that do not want perma death are assmonkies.

However, the people that go around greifing other players do so mostly on non-perma death servers because they have a much easier oppertunity to do it there.

It's kinda like the German Shepard and Dpg thing... not all dogs are German Shepards, but all German Shepards are dogs.

I hope that make sence.

Cheers!

I think it is better to have griefers rampage on a non-PD server than on a PD server.

Dev Disco wrote:

I think it is better to have griefers rampage on a non-PD server than on a PD server.

Yeah. I was thinking to myself. "Griefers could have the most ...'fun' on a permadeath server..."

And I would think griefers would be drawn there. And PvP builders would too.. I mean whats a bigger thrill than cutting down opposition.. which really does die. Rule by Force.. RAH!

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

I will leave this server if, IF, looting of corpses or dropping of loot upon death or upon death one random item removed from inventory. Don't take my stuff! I can live with the present situation where DM may take your stuff temporartily or even permanently for RP but adding any 'looting' type of function on death I absolutely positively am against.

With all due respect and the assurance that I share your dislike... saying you will leave the server if xyz happens isn't a good contribution to the discussion. It may cause you to leave, but that doesn't say anything about the big picture.

ps. I pick on you here because I know you won't be too upset, Teufel, but it's directed at a lot more people.

I think permadeath, in principle, is a great idea, since, right now, adventurers are immortal. What they do isn't special. People are supposed to love them, hate them, or fear them, because they do something that most people aren't capable of.

When there is no risk, no matter how good you are at killing monsters, it is nothing special. Anyone can do it. The common folk would probably see this risk-free hobby as something which unfairly pays more than real hard work, like farming.

Therefore, the lack of anything special about adventurers means the successful ones get ignored. Nobody cares if you went to the Abyss and fought a war solo. You're just avoiding getting a real job. Sure, you've tier 3 in the chicken farmer job, but we all know you're jumping the fence to kill monsters when mum and dad aren't looking, you lazy sod. They have to work hard, you know. The weather was bad this summer, profits are down.

Now, if adventurers weren't immortal stars in some strange alternative sport, they might actually become heroes and villains.

If they were seen to be able to triumph over true risk and adversity to help the common folk, oppress the populace or simply get stinking rich, they would become special. People would drop their jaws in awe when hearing of the monk that knocked out a giant with a headbutt. They would come running to Paladins and clerics for aid, since those zombies are now a serious threat that nobody else can handle. They would cower in terror at the forces of Bane, since their threats now carry weight. Clerics raising the dead, paladins removing disease and the like would be seen as true miracle workers, actual manifestations of their deity's will, as opposed to annoying Mormon-esque preachers knocking on folks' doors to preach about morality that nobody cares about, since murder is no worse than assault.

The fact that adventurers could die, permanently, would dissuade many from taking up such a dangerous career over farming or begging or whatever. This would make even low-level adventurers something special and epic-level adventurers truly epic. The sort of person that leads a crusade into the abyss would not be just another mercenary adventurer but a legend for centuries to come. Right now, heading to the Abyss is like playing as the away team in a football match against reasonably skilled opponents, as opposed to combat of plane-shaking proportions.

However, changing to this level of realism, where adventurers are heroes and villains as opposed to sports teams, would require either an immense backlog of paperwork, reducing most epic-level characters (including my own), who gained most of their XP from riskless hunts, to low-levels, to better reflect their status, since not everyone can be a legend.

The other option would be to start afresh. Start over from square one. This would require a lot of work, though. Balancing would need changed to reflect the new paradigm.

DM input would be required on a much larger scale, since the adventurers would actually become important, and this would need to be reflected in-game, since they couldn't be casually ignored by the commoners, or, even more importantly, politicians jealously guarding their positions, which such powerful heroes and villains may crave.

Difficulty levels of nigh-on every NPC would need altered for a lower-level environment. Mythals would likely have to be changed or removed. So many more unforeseen changes would need to be made.

To be honest, in short, this would all be great... but nigh-on impossible to implement.

Not even going to read all the seven pages.

Anyhow, I am all for perma-death. I have never been really attached to any character so I don't care. Plus death would make the world more "realistic".

World without death.. kinda sucks. I left WoW for it's very immature roleplay, people just came back with a reason or not.. I have tried more hardcore servers on NWN. And I REALLY enjoyed the feeling when we gathered a group IC:ly, went hunting IC:ly, were careful as we hunted like send a scout before the main group to know to what we were walking into. (Or quested as it was there) IF we died, we lost all our items, if we respawned, we couldn't be sure if we still had our stuff, for others could steal them as you needed to wait ten minutes before respawning, plus a massive experience strip.

Others could revive you, if they were your friends, pay a fee to the priest/cleric to get you back. ((Was a low-lvl world.))

Anyhow, for first time the hunting was really interesting, intimidating.. real. Can't even compare the feeling of questing/hunting there to the hunting/questing on Amia to speak the truth.

However, in Amia, it is more easy to get a touch with the players in my opinion, both IC and OOC.

People won't play Amia if there are too many strict rules and such. Perma-deth may bring the player base down a bit if it's implimented in a bad way. I like the idea, but I feel that it shouldn't be too easy to die for good.

I think you should go to a limbo area, but be able to do something there instead of wait until reset. People don't want to wait until reset- they will just stop playing Amia for good after that happens a few times. Sometimes I think there is too much junk for noobs to have to deal with allready when it comes to learning how to exist on Amia; they won't like it when they die forever just when they start to understand the systems of Amia and start to flesh out their character.

Other servers are totally broken from my experience. Amia is the totally opposite. I do like the challange, and feel perma-deth can make it more of a challange as long as it wasn't too easy to die.....forever.

I say make limbo a place full of angry souls that come to drain your essense permenantly. The player has to escape to...the light I suppose, to live again. A small maze or something where the character has to dodge evil spirits that cannot be killed (so that a high level char can't just kill them). They can perhaps have a +50 ab and just deal Con damage on hit. If you die in limbo, it bye bye character.

That is a great idea if I can say so myself. Come on, that is a great idea, right? Think about it.

Dev Disco wrote:

With all due respect and the assurance that I share your dislike... saying you will leave the server if xyz happens isn't a good contribution to the discussion. It may cause you to leave, but that doesn't say anything about the big picture.

ps. I pick on you here because I know you won't be too upset, Teufel, but it's directed at a lot more people.

Sorry Disco. Didn't mean to be a jerk. It just flows out of me sometimes. :wink:

I didn't mean it in any blackmail sense, was trying(& failing) to show my dislike for 'looting'.

Sometimes I want to reach in Yoss' brain & steal his writing/communication skills.

Magiros wrote:

Not even going to read all the seven pages.

Anyhow, I am all for perma-death. I have never been really attached to any character so I don't care. Plus death would make the world more "realistic".

An honest question: What makes you want realism in a fantasy game? Especially when the reality of the game setting has always allowed for death not to be permanent?

I'm curious, I've seen this opinion expressed before, and I'm looking for someone to be able to describe to me what the big need for "realism" is. I'd also like to point out that the main reason "death' is feared IRL is that it's both unknown and permanent, but in the setting, well, it's actually quite known what happens after death, as well as known it's not even necessarily permanent with given magics in the setting.

So it's essentially like asking to impose a "reality" that isn't real in the given the setting.

More difficulty = Better.

Amia does lack strategy. Doorways are really the only thing that a character can use to any advantage. It's all mostly just hack and slash. Maybe if there was more focus on strategetic playing with some sort of perma-death, it would be much better. The areas just aren't suited for tactical terrain. Disagree with me all you want, but it's just how Amia is. You go from one spawn to another, not much strategy involved.

I do not however, want 1 life on Amia. There has to be a struggle for survivial rather than a waiting period, and only one life would drive people away from Amia.

If perma-death is implimented, I think a character should be able to get around level 15 on average before they need to start worrying about perma-death (depending on how reckless they were obviously).

How about life coins or something in inventory? Subtract one for every death (at every death). Start with 10, and be able to get them in drops...like as often maybe as boner wands or rollin papers.

As I said before, I'm against forced perma, but not at all against more difficulty, as long as wait times aren't too stupid and I'm not going broke every single time I respawn or get raised. And for the love of God, please don't take out raise scrolls completely...

But I still stand by my "resurrection sickness" suggestion.

Dwagin wrote:

The possibility of very rewarding events carrying a chance of your character being permanently dead, are also perfectly allowable -IF- the players involved are given the warning.

This is a good suggestion though. If there's the warning, then it's not so bad.

Ugh... finally got through all 7 pages and now there's another topic that I haven't even looked at? I'd better spew my comments before I get completely snowed under.

I'd venture to say that the people I know who've left Amia have done so either because they've outgrown it, RL has stolen their time, they've become bored, or they've had issues with other PCs or DMs. I dont know anyone who's left because Amia's not 'hardcore'. Mind you, these people won't have been the hardcore PvM/PvPers, so I cant say anything about why members of that group might have left.

Dwagin wrote:

I believe more -consequences- for DM events would be good step in the right direction here. Long term damage and changes to player's PC's which are -out of their own hands- should be completely possible.

I'd go with the harsher death penalties for PvM at the very least and have expressed my approval of this previously. Zombies and goblins should be scary to most people. Not sure quite how you'd manage PvP as you have to strike a balance between meaningful penalties and griefing.

Kraniumbrud wrote:

just be carefull, act like your chars life actually matter....it actually works, and it sorta gives the feeling that..hey im under a threat..perhaps i should not skip along alone like the big bad banite was just a fluffy pillow with cuteness stuffings

Most people in medieval times never went more than a few miles from home and lived very boring lives. People will avoid events where permadeath is an issue, just like your average peasant will run away from the dragon, not toward it. IMO, the chance of permadeath will widen the divide between the stay-at-home tea-party set and hardcore gamers with throw-away cannon-fodder PCs.

The comment has also been made about factions. Not to toot my own horn, but I am pretty much a faction of one. If Xavi perma-died there would no longer be a Sharessan presence on Amia, and maybe some would see that as a good thing!

I play her as a stay-at-home now because she has, over the years, become ICly very risk-averse. She ran into one of Darthion's Sunrise Sacrifices a week or so ago and would have died if she hadn't pulled an unexpected rabbit out of a hat and buggered off in a hurry.

WonWon wrote:

People need to accept that they aren't the star of the show. No one is. And ultimately bad things do happen in the setting, and sometimes (rather, alot of the time) it's brought by someone's own action.

Which is why, when trouble appears, she generally makes sure to stay well off to the side or even leave the area.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Finally; if a person is 'permakilled' they are sent to the Fugue, where they await judgment. If they wish their character to survive, they cough up 3 DCs - a hefty price - and return to the world of the living. If not... they go away forever. Period.

This might work. It's essentially a 'karma points' thing. However I can see people from DC-poor time zones objecting.

Metalien_XC wrote:

The only time I would be for Permadeath is if a player willingly kills their PC, I've seen far too many people 'Killing' thier PC only for them to be raised again a few weeks later...

If a player chooses the Perma option the character could be deleted from the vault. But only if there is no True Res option available. Which I think there should be.

Dwagin wrote:

I also believe 'Permadeath' should also be an option when a character's status or action of what they are doing would be irrevokably and summarily delt with. Someone that's proven themselves an true danger, or doing something Completely maddeningly brazen, dangerous and foolhardy. That's not to say the person cannot be returned to life via True ressurection, unless they can not. (Soul is taken/stored via necromancy etc).. however then again one can always try to Roleplay recovering it which can lead to more RP, a prospect of recovering the PC that was lost by their friends/factionmates.

In the PnP games I've run/played, it's easy enough to kill off low-level PCs. But it's no fun for players to have a PC with a lot of effort invested die from a single failed poison save or whatever. That's why DMs fudge rolls. An epic character should Perma-die if they do something really really stupid (as in Ron's examples), but otherwise... no. We talked about NWN being a heroic fantasy in the earlier IC/OOC death thread (I think it was).

Make death nasty. Make its effects lasting (RL days of debilitation) and to some degree permanent (eg. a permanent 1 pt random stat loss each time), but make Perma the exception not the rule.

Oh, and <3 Dwagin :lol:

FA_Frey_XC wrote:

Remember when we had the Great Tarkuul Battle, Yoss? I believe it was you who was the Voice of Tarkuul, and I wonder if you remember the players reactions when you , or whomever it was (Darthion you were there too, so were you Xaviera...) that was DM'ing who said as the Voice "Your souls will be fed to the furnaces of Tarkuul, your bodies will burn until nothing but spit and ashes remain."

And people freaked the hell out... almost immediately going OOC with ""//is this permadeath?"

That was one of my top 10 or 20 experiences in the 4 years I've been here and was a significant turning point in Xavi's character development (one of only a few). It wasnt so much the chance that permadeath would result, but that it felt like my character could die, even though I knew OOCly she wouldnt.

Yossarin wrote:

The only exception is if you are me, because even without permadeath, I imagine the risk of permadeath, and the spikes and the pit become as real to me as they should within the confines of the IC universe.

It's those moments where you feel the IC fear of your character that make death meaningful. Granted, some OOC fear might make those moments more frequent, but I believe that widespread (as opposed to very selective) permadeath would do more harm than good.

Some possible poll options:

Permadeath in PvP
Permadeath in PvM
Permadeath in DM events
Perma in PvP or PvM
Perma in PvP or DM events
Perma in PvM or DM events
Permadeath any time
Serious temporary death penalties
Lasting death penalties without perma
No change

Teufel Eldritch wrote:

Sometimes I want to reach in Yoss' brain & steal his writing/communication skills.

Me too. He is one of the few people that can routinely toss vocabulary that isn't technical jargon that my brain doesn't know. My english is also very poor at times.

Dark Immolation wrote:

Magiros wrote:

Not even going to read all the seven pages.

Anyhow, I am all for perma-death. I have never been really attached to any character so I don't care. Plus death would make the world more "realistic".

An honest question: What makes you want realism in a fantasy game? Especially when the reality of the game setting have always allowed for death not to be permanent?

I'm curious, I've seen this opinion expressed before, and I'm looking for someone to be able to decribe to me what the big need for "realism". I'd also like to point out that the main reason "death' is feared IRL is that it's both unknown and permanent, but in the setting, well, it's actually quite known what happens after death, as well as known it's not even necessarily permanent with given magics in the setting.

So it's essentially like asking to impose a "reality" that isn't real in the given the setting.

Primarily the same reason contemporary fiction is a more lucrative and popular genre than science fiction and fantasy, according to publishing house reports. Readers primarily read luxury texts for two purposes: entertainment and an aesthetic edification. Amia is a luxury text, not an educational text, and therefore it would fall under being played for the same reasons, those being entertainment, ultimately, and the possibility of gleaning a unique experience or understanding, penultimate.

Science fiction and fantasy, as a genre, do not as a rule fly in the face of those two goals. They can be constructed to appease both desires. But most people see them as so far removed from any kind of reality or realism about the modern world we all live in that there is nothing to be gained from it save escapism. Escapism is a romantic notion, a dreamer's dream, and as such, mature adults realize that while it has a place in the grand scheme of things (taking a step out of yourself and reality to surrender to the imagination), anything it offers as far as connecting the universe of the imagination to the universe of the real is threatened by inventions that destroy our ability to suspend disbelief.

"Realism" for a writer is really just coaxing the reader (or, in our case, the player) into comprehending their universe as one that parallels our own, because where realism is concerned, readers/players only have one point of reference: what occurs in our world. If we do what you want us to do and pretend death only exists at your whim, it abolishes that connection. The results are varied, but mostly negative - some people get bored with it because they cannot understand or comprehend a universe where people can do anything they want to without consequences (as you champion), some people get irritated because they aren't achieving what they want, consciously or subconsciously, and others buy in full stock, mostly children, young adults, and misanthropic adults who are caught in a depressing spiral of denial and self-hatred, rejecting their own world in favor of a world where they can have their sociopathic whims served.

To answer your question simply, there is no need for realism. That is a fallacy. There is merely a want for it in the majority audience, even if it is subtle and packaged as fantasy...because as I said, even fantasy can have realism, if you incorporate the very elements you are set on destroying.

As far as it being known what happens after death in the fantasy realm, that does, to your credit, rattle our sense of realism regarding death. You are correct, it is a mystery from our point of reference, and not quite the same mystery in the IC setting. Which is a very unique point that makes me intrigued by the Kelemvorites - prior to Kelemvor's era, death was that mystery, but his clergy are on a mission to preach the "truths" about the afterlife to a populace that is, even in these days, rife with strange superstitions and ideas about what happens when you die. Which is in itself an allusion that points to our world, our point of reference, in a clever way.

But that is beside the point. You asked about the need for realism, I explained that it isn't a need, it is just a standard want when you compare luxury roleplaying to luxury reading (both have story elements, which is the critical connection I can draw between the two).

Just one problem-

With perma-death, parties will farm low-level critters instead of challanging ones. In doing so, the lower level characters won't have much breathing room for a challange when difficult hunting grounds are taken.

Another random idea- just make rez scrolls ten times more expensive.

Dev Disco wrote:

I think it is better to have griefers rampage on a non-PD server than on a PD server.

A big reason why I'm against it. I fear the damage griefers could do.

That, and when my character dies permanently, out of the blue, and I have no way to get her back despite having put months of effort into her and not wanting her to die yet...That is NOT fun. That just makes me feel angry at the server, at the dev team, and at everything to do with the server.

I've been on a server like this once before. While it wasn't months I spent on it, it was only a couple of weeks, that was enough for me to say "f**k this" and leave.

The best option is probably to have the "normal" and "hardcore" mode options. That's my favourite one, since it caters to everyone.

However, I'd still like to see SOME sort of penalty for death. Not permanent, and not too much time in the Fugue plane, but some sort of stat penalty. A major one, for an hour or until reset. Like reduce STR and CON to 6 or as far down as they can go without killing the player.

Youthanized wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

I think it is better to have griefers rampage on a non-PD server than on a PD server.

A big reason why I'm against it. I fear the damage griefers could do.

That, and when my character dies permanently, out of the blue, and I have no way to get her back despite having put months of effort into her and not wanting her to die yet...That is NOT fun. That just makes me feel angry at the server, at the dev team, and at everything to do with the server.

I've been on a server like this once before. While it wasn't months I spent on it, it was only a couple of weeks, that was enough for me to say "f**k this" and leave.

The best option is probably to have the "normal" and "hardcore" mode options. That's my favourite one, since it caters to everyone.

However, I'd still like to see SOME sort of penalty for death. Not permanent, and not too much time in the Fugue plane, but some sort of stat penalty. A major one, for an hour or until reset. Like reduce STR and CON to 6 or as far down as they can go without killing the player.

So basically little to no penalties to casters.

Kjetta Wrote: Where we are not just a bunch of individuals freely writing our novels in the same setting, but where true interaction can happen - without consent. This level of control, I believe, leads to a boring gaming environment where stories just roll on forever:

This sums up Amia for me, and is largely the reason I have just gotten bored with it.

Virginia_is_for_lovers wrote:

So basically little to no penalties to casters.

Could work it out in other ways, silence and arcane spell failure for that length of time. But does it make sense to get stupider, less wise, or less charismatic just from resurrecting?

A combination of ASF and Silence works wonders for nerfing spellcasting for a little while.

belgianbonzai wrote:

----------------------
In regards to actual permadeath:
permadeath will make DC's sort of useless, who wants to spend them on a char they can lose 2 days after the payment is made etc.

That's what's wrong with the Amian mentality. If one death would remove your character, and everyone else is just as mortal, it would be even bigger bragging rights to have these DC items. If someone threw you into the wild to fight monsters wouldn't YOU want the best gear available to you?

Makes absolutely no sense to me why people would use the opening logic.

I vote for permadeath as a possibility in a DM event if you do something stupid (by which I mean doing something with a good probability of killing you - though it may not be stupid from your PCs perspective, it should be fairly obvious to the player that the risk is high). That being said, it will certainly make me more cautious in DM events.

Non-permadeath should definitely be made harsher, and my personal suggestions are along the lines of:

A) Allow a significant (10%?) gold loss on death but have a bank so PCs arent carrying all their money on them.

B) Serious temporary resurrection sickness lasting anywhere from a reset to a day or 3 RL and possibly including 1-3 levels drained and stat reduction of 1-3 points in each ability. Losses are 40% chance of no penalty, 30% ch of -1, 20% ch -2 and 10% -3. Chance of partial recovery over time (eg. if you are at -3 you have a 30% chance of going to -2, each stat/effect is checked individually based on real time, perhaps hourly or at resets). Curative spells or regen may increase the rate of recovery. While this may turn some people off, it may (as previously suggested) encourage people to log on with alts, hopefully fostering further RP.

C) Permanent effect of dying, eg. a 1 pt loss in one random stat. Obviously this will affect you most if it's your primary stat, STR or CON. If you take a lot of risks at low level this will bork your PC and you'll need to create another before you get too attached to it. It will also tend to retire high-level characters from the risky adventuring lifestyle and could in a sense simulate aging penalties. This would inhibit epic boss-farming and the resulting inflation and would tend to drive higher-level PCs into more social RP (hopefully more plotting and politics than tea parties). This limits the useful combat life of the heroic fantasy PC, which will probably not be a good thing if you like hardcore hack 'n slash.

Note: B & C can be carried on an undroppable token (that inventory item with all the letters in it?) so that no tinkering with the base stats and levels is required (dont want to have RDDs losing and gaining wings each time they die, or SDs losing jump tokens or whatever). Penalties are applied on raise so server crashes while dead dont penalize you unless you were dead long enough for the server to save you as dead. Both temporary and permanent death penalties would be cumulative.

No strong opinion on exactly what happens to the body at this point.

Auto respawn on reset? Standard penalties would be applied.

No loot or gold dropping.

Oh, and move that respawn button!

Changes to the game world itself could include no more fountains and raises by clerics & druids only. This would probably encourage partying. I like PotM's idea that you have to drag your buddy's 100 lb body to the local temple for the raise if you dont have a cleric handy.

Roleplaying isn't about bragging rights or elitism or ensuring everyone else that they don't matter in the setting. It's about having fun and helping others have fun. Permanent death is not fun. It will not magically enhance roleplay. It will cause problems. It will cause people to leave; far more than anyone who is too 'hardcore serious roleplayer' to leave over Amia's paltry (poultry) death penalties.

I have scoffed and rolled my eyes and laughed behind the backs of other people on the server whom I feel roleplay rather dumbly. However, it would never be my first instinct to punish them for having fun in their own manner. I never once felt so threatened or annoyed OOC that I wanted to come back and smack them in the face, kick them on the ground and say 'HA! You're not as important as you feel you are!'.

I can understand as a DM you see things from a much wider perspective, and thus bear witness to silly roleplay more often than I do. However, this is the worst possible way to reconcile your dislike for the roleplay of some, by trying to force upon everyone the way you would like to play. You should not seek out even an optional method of ways to forcibly segregate people from your events by having a whimsical 'Oh, btw, you'll die if you fail!' button. And yes, that is what you are doing even if you do not understand you are doing so, by suggesting and discussing it with other DMs in an attempt to make it the standard.

There are several things on Amia which have caused me to lose regular interest in playing on it, and no, it was not the last time I died and thought 'Boy, I wish that hurt more!'. They are from a lack of;

regular activity

As a player who has been here for 5 years, I have seen all manner of 'god beast/person', 'super terrible creature', 'evil political guy', and 'WAR/INVASION'. I want to see some new, accessible events with fresh ideas. A real simple way to grab my attention would be mysteries, murder or otherwise. I have had a detective character on the backburner for ages that has not been able to see the light of day!

In short, if you want to rekindle the interest of someone who has lost interest in the server (in this case: me), start by increasing the brain magnets on events. That will draw me in faster than the 'hardcore' RP that would be brought about by any form of permanent death.

Too long of a thread to read but I just looked at the results of this thread in the other thread and one of the options was taking lvls upon death. So If nobody has said this already, it is not an option simply because RDD and PM cannot be de-lvld or else it will completely ruin the character. For example my RDD was docked of his lvls and his strenght score went from 40 to 255. Permamently.

You really should read those posts. It's been said quite a few times.

Only now did I see this article and I wanted to add my opinion.
I understand it is probably irritating should someone find the effort put into killing another character only succumbs them for a bit, then they're back in action. But that is the way of our world.

When I think about it, it is not that much different than say, a comic book.

Sure you have a bunch of side-characters dying off every so often. But the majority of the villains and heroes will be defeated, but return in another book. It is highly fantasy and unrealistic, but for us it works.

To go out of your way and say, "I am permi-killing your character" be it PvP, PvM, or DM. Is a lot like saying, "I don't want you around anymore. Therefore, you need to die." Rather that is what I gather, I could see people going after people they simply do not like, and it turning into a big mess of things and to be honest, we need the villains we have, and the heroes we have. It is those characters who give color to our world.

Now I personally have made it very clear, or at least I hope that any of my side-characters can be killed permanently in game were the circumstances in order, but as for a main character, (as we all have one) I think it should be strictly for the player to decide who of their own lives and dies.

Youthanized wrote:

Dev Disco wrote:

I think it is better to have griefers rampage on a non-PD server than on a PD server.

A big reason why I'm against it. I fear the damage griefers could do.

Has everyone suddenly forgotten there are still PvP rules, even with permadeath?

1: the other has to give you an IC out
2: screenshot a rule breaker and the DM will have a serious discussion with the offender

I really don't get the notion of the big mean griefer who is just out there to get you.

I'm pretty sure most people have actually dropped the idea of Permadeath in PvP by now.

People are just wondering about the PvM Aspect, given the last page or so.

Sunkin Sheep wrote:

Only now did I see this article and I wanted to add my opinion.
I understand it is probably irritating should someone find the effort put into killing another character only succumbs them for a bit, then they're back in action. But that is the way of our world.

When I think about it, it is not that much different than say, a comic book.

Sure you have a bunch of side-characters dying off every so often. But the majority of the villains and heroes will be defeated, but return in another book. It is highly fantasy and unrealistic, but for us it works.

To go out of your way and say, "I am permi-killing your character" be it PvP, PvM, or DM. Is a lot like saying, "I don't want you around anymore. Therefore, you need to die." Rather that is what I gather, I could see people going after people they simply do not like, and it turning into a big mess of things and to be honest, we need the villains we have, and the heroes we have. It is those characters who give color to our world.

Now I personally have made it very clear, or at least I hope that any of my side-characters can be killed permanently in game were the circumstances in order, but as for a main character, (as we all have one) I think it should be strictly for the player to decide who of their own lives and dies.

I offer an interesting counterpoint.

What of characters whom have goals or aims so.. how to put this best.. inflamatory that for whatever IC reason, the character outright needs to be destroyed. No half measures, no prison sentences. They just, need, to be destroyed.

Sure, they can be slowed down, sure they can be crippled for a time, but by the picture you offer, if the character is the person's 'Main' .. it is only by their arbitrary decision, or another condition cited in the more DM event side listings of this that would warrant their death.

I suppose in a sense, that would answer my question in part as at least for the immediate, any examples of the really high end potential threats that would warrant such final measures would more likely then not, have a DM event linked in at some juncture.

Last edited by Dwagin on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 20:02 PM, edited 1 time in total.

In my opinion Permadeath in plain Jane vanilla PvM is just not an option.

No matter how small the chance the dice will screw you.

PvM deaths should have a non-avoidable cost beyond the cost of raise scrolls. Even if its a fraction of xp of the full cost. Think of it as 'forgetting the past training you did today, and trying to get back on track after you stumbled.'

Also gold penalties on PvM death Respawn need triple in high epic for respawn. Also my proposed gold penalty, even if raised of. ((150gp * (ECL Squared -5) )) / 2.

Entry Raises NEED to go. That should also be something we've gotten from this.

One simple way to organise permadeath would be to disable respawns, but still keep raising and the like the same as they are.

Now, people will say 'What of the solo adventurer that goes off and gets killed?'

Well, besides the fact that adventuring solo is silly, anyone with half a brain would leave a note at a friend's house, or their chosen temple, with a message saying where they were going, and how long to wait before assuming the worst.

With PvP it would likely have more permanent effects, when the body gets looted/desecrated/raised as a zombie.

Quote:

Magiros wrote:
Not even going to read all the seven pages.

Anyhow, I am all for perma-death. I have never been really attached to any character so I don't care. Plus death would make the world more "realistic".

An honest question: What makes you want realism in a fantasy game? Especially when the reality of the game setting has always allowed for death not to be permanent?

I'm curious, I've seen this opinion expressed before, and I'm looking for someone to be able to describe to me what the big need for "realism" is. I'd also like to point out that the main reason "death' is feared IRL is that it's both unknown and permanent, but in the setting, well, it's actually quite known what happens after death, as well as known it's not even necessarily permanent with given magics in the setting.

So it's essentially like asking to impose a "reality" that isn't real in the given the setting.

Well, I don't exactly know why, but for some reason I like the game I am playing be as realistic as possible. Perma-Death would bring a certain atmosphere of fear into the game. I for one, want to "experience" feelings while playing. For example, when I faced a banite in a fight, I knew it would most likely lead to PvP, I felt intimidated by this banite. (Not gona name who it was

) And that is perhaps one of the best memories from Amia.

Even in a world where people "know" where they are heading after death, they most likely feel fear when thinking of death. Not all but some. Plus, it makes me wonder how everyone would automatically know that they are actually getting there. What makes them so certain?

Also it might not be permanent, but for most, it is permanent. It's not like in Amia that the clerics, priests, paladins go around ressurecting people they don't know. Plus the god's wouldn't even allow some ressurections. If they would, and theirs servants could, why wouldn't they just raise the armies they just lost in battle.

All in all, this is my opinion on the matter. I want it more "realistic", meaning that I want it as close to "reality" as possible. Realistic in the worlds settings. Never read from FR books that characters there would just march to their death knowing where they go when they die, nor read that they wouldn't be afraid of death (excluding a few, as the most char's don't want to die, which makes them fear the possibility of dying.)

Last edited by StrifeST on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 21:44 PM, edited 2 times in total.

I have read as much of this as I possibly could, however, I have to get ready for work so I am going to post this without really knowing if it has been said or not.

Personally, I am against the idea. There are a lot of people that go for the "powerbuild" while some of us go for the RP build. Needless say, if the RP build and the Powerbuild came into confrontation it’s pretty obvious who is going to win. And *POOF* there goes your character that you spent countless time building up background for, doing RP events and other situations to progress their plotline and character depth.

Now, I am all for perhaps a new death system which has been suggested a few times or something along those lines, however, forced permadeath? Just don’t think so. I think most say that they are all for it now but just wait till your favorite character has been killed because you were having an off day or you just didn’t cast that spell that much quicker and all that "YAY PERMADEATH" is going to turn into "WTF!

Also, I believe that with such an implement that some might easily take advantage of such a situation. The class system is not really all that fair to begin with. Some classes are naturally going to be able to take out others with ease. And of course there are those wonderful Dev Critters as well.

I just feel that such a system is going to really create a conflict with the true RPers and the “builders”. Honestly, you might run the risk of everyone turning into a powerbuild just so they might have a chance at keeping a character that they actually wish to RP. Or, run the risk of player not RPing any type of confrontational behavior at all for fear of losing a character which will make things very “vanilla” when it comes to whole Good Vs Evil or Faction Vs Faction.

Implementing such a system is going to promote fear in a lot of people. Fear causes people to take fewer risks and, in a fantasy world, this is going to really hinder a lot of things.

TheNamelessUnknown1 wrote:

permadeath at the hands of other characters is going to kill the rp on this server. Characters are going to end up with a shelf life of a few weeks at most. It's hard to build and develop a character that makes some sort of lasting impression, if theyre all getting killed and replaced all the time. Amia will turn into any other game, where the object isnt to RP a great storyline, its to live for as long as you can.

Alright, I'm read up through page 4 and most of 5 I do believe. But this thread is jumping and bounding ahead quickly. Let alone the other one was closed (to explain a question there I didn't get to answer: the thought was this thread was on PermaDeath and the other was for "Other Penalities" because this thread was being hijacked; although I see now that it's decided alright as a change on specific topic).

Anyways.

When it comes to Solutions being offered that are NOT Perma-death; but will up the stakes with death and encourage meaning into death so that we can work to: Increase Sense of Accomplishment over Hard Tasks, Increase Sense of Death is Reality, and Increase Ability of Faction Conflict to Stun/Slow/Temporarily disable opponets; my favorite and I believe much said to be a good thought system was Didi's suggestion with a Life Token system.

While I think it would take a lot of tweaking by trial and error; Didi's idea of a 9token system where 1 is lost per death, and 1 is regained per RL week, up to a cap of 9, has very good potential to start testing if changes to up the death system will improve Amia or create more downsides.

It's very inbetween as a PC at 0 tokens must wait through to the end of a week to leave the Fugue plane again by regaining 1 token. It functions without DC, without altering current xp/gold penalty, and would apply for PvP and PvM. Although the 9cap might be upped or downed depending how things go with "griefing" potential put in because the death system now has a limit to it.

People who don't play often will be less affected, as they'll be more likely to regenerate that 1/week as fast enough for when the go on hunting runs and can spend a few down if they want.

People who play more often will definitely work to balance how often they are in PvP or party fo PvM if they're having hard time.

PvP rules of course would remain on "must give outs" so that those low on these tokens do not feel forced to be 'killed to the end of the week'. Griefering penalties would stay the same too.

Of course, not all PvP might be worth risking those tokens on, such as training PvP. Which would beg adding a PvP widget option that would be "no token cost" or be able to return on the Raise effect a life token.

It's got a lot of things to be worked on perhaps in how it would function. But it gives a lot of room for balance on meaning to death (which is why Perma is sought by a few) without forcing people to actually loose PC's forever.

I would do this:

You have a set of lives that slowly regenerate.

Every death will have consequences increasing in severity: first a temporary ability/level penalty, maybe. Then a movement speed decrease. (Both increasing in duration after more deaths.)

After you have few enough lives left, you go to the Fugue on resurrection. You cannot leave there until a certain time has passed. This step is crucial: it allows political assassinations to actually work!

Once you lose your last life, you go into the Fugue and can't leave at all until your lives regenerate.

There would be a cap on lives, and the penalties would gradually decrease as you succesfully lay low: if you just spent your last life and regenerate two, you will have to suffer the second-worst penalty for death, should you die before you regenerate more.

Raise, Resurrection and scrolls would affect this penalty as appropriate.'

Is there any reason this basic idea is bad? Specific numbers need a lot of work, of course.

Last edited by StrifeST on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 21:46 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Quote:

All in all, this is my opinion on the matter. I want it more "realistic", meaning that I want it as close to "reality" as possible. Realistic in the worlds settings. Never read from FR books that characters there would just march to their death knowing where they go when they die, nor read that they wouldn't be afraid of death (excluding a few, as the most char's don't want to die, which makes them fear the possibility of dying.)

In books the characters are at the mercy of the author. The character has no say as to when they die . . .the writer does. In Amia, the player is the writer/author of their character so; it should be our call as to when we feel that their story has come to an end and how their death should be handled.

I think we've pretty much ruled out PvP and PvM for possibility of permadeath at this point. PvP because of possible griefing and PvM becaue of factors such as crashing, lagging, etc.

My main concern still lies with Permadeath possibilities in DM stories. It inherently means that in certain cases, players will be excluded from purely because they don't want to risk Permadeath in any manner; Note: just Permadeath, not death-as-hard-to-get-back-from or IC consequences. Considering when they created their characters X years ago, they were told that Permadeath would always be thier call, it's not really a fair retcon.

I think any decent RPer worth his/her salt would be willing to not play a character for a given amount of time to make a death of defeat seem more meaningful. But Permadeath by no means makes that hiatus or defeat any more meaningful, it's just a penalty after the fact. Until someone explains to me how Permadeath in DM plots does not discourage perfectly fine RPer's OoCly by making them accept a penalty they were originally told they'd always have the call on or not be involved in the plot at all, I call shenanigans on Permadeath.

IronAngel wrote:

I would do this:

You have a set of lives that slowly regenerate.

Every death will have consequences increasing in severity: first a temporary ability/level penalty, maybe. Then a movement speed decrease. (Both increasing in duration after more deaths.)

After you have few enough lives left, you go to the Fugue on resurrection. You cannot leave there until a certain time has passed. This step is crucial: it allows political assassinations to actually work!

Once you lose your last life, you go into the Fugue and can't leave at all until your lives regenerate.

There would be a cap on lives, and the penalties would gradually decrease as you succesfully lay low: if you just spent your last life and regenerate two, you will have to suffer the second-worst penalty for death, should you die before you regenerate more.

Raise, Resurrection and scrolls would affect this penalty as appropriate.'

Is there any reason this basic idea is bad? Specific numbers need a lot of work, of course.

I find this a perfectly fine solution. Death has more mechanical meaning for folk that like that, no Permadeath, just forced hiatus.

IronAngel wrote:

snip

Not necessarily as terrible an idea as forced permanent death but it doesn't have as much of a purpose as it, either. If it's just gaps of time, from the design standpoint of a server/game I'd rather not force people to not play.

Last edited by IronAngel on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 22:07 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Neus: I think it addresses the problem that often comes up with death: it has no meaning to RP. Assassinations are pointless, and avoiding PvP irrelevant. I don't like XP/Gold loss in PvP, because of potential griefing, whereas you will have brought it upon yourself if you get to the point where you have to wait for a resurrection. That doesn't happen by accident.

The majority of people are opposed to permadeath, but want more consequences to death. XP/Gold hits won't achieve that, because they have no effect on RP. If you assassinate/kill someone and they just come back with less XP and gold, you will have gained nothing valuable RP-wise, whereas the target may be pissed OOC. If, however, you actually weaken them or even manage to put them out of the game for a day, you can reap the benefits in politics, faction warfare or otherwise. And I reckon it's going to get pretty exciting and fun for the target, too.

In the meanwhile, the victim can play another PC, boraden their horizons and hopefully grow less attached to a single PC. Everybody wins.

Dark Immolation wrote:

My main concern still lies with Permadeath possibilities in DM stories. It inherently means that in certain cases, players will be excluded from purely because they don't want to risk Permadeath in any manner;

They want reward - they can take the risk.

I know that, if Permadeath were permitted for events - every single event of mine would hold that risk, alongside the pretty heavily heightened rewards.

If people don't like that too much, well, i'm not forcing them to be involved.

IronAngel wrote:

I would do this:

You have a set of lives that slowly regenerate.

Every death will have consequences increasing in severity: first a temporary ability/level penalty, maybe. Then a movement speed decrease. (Both increasing in duration after more deaths.)

After you have few enough lives left, you go to the Fugue on resurrection. You cannot leave there until a certain time has passed. This step is crucial: it allows political assassinations to actually work!

Once you lose your last life, you go into the Fugue and can't leave at all until your lives regenerate.

There would be a cap on lives, and the penalties would gradually decrease as you succesfully lay low: if you just spent your last life and regenerate two, you will have to suffer the second-worst penalty for death, should you die before you regenerate more.

Raise, Resurrection and scrolls would affect this penalty as appropriate.'

Is there any reason this basic idea is bad? Specific numbers need a lot of work, of course.

I can dig that general idea. But I'd put a heftier price on death right from the get go than you. I'd make it so you -have to- stay dead for at least a full minute, real time. After all, it does take a full minute to use a raise dead. This will help in PvP where people raising each other to continue a never ending fight. Not to mention, add sting to PvM death.

Gauging interest: FORCED PERMA DEATH!!!!!!

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