That makes death even less of a pain than it is now, and I don't think that is the goal. At least, I'd put all my money on the bank so I won't lose anything but the small change I have on me at the moment. In effect it makes the gold loss percentage close to 0% for anybody owning more than a few 100K.

So, if you remove the cap the last thing you should do is allowing banking.

Well... or perhaps allow only up to a certain amount of money on your account.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

I have a strong suspicion that if interactions with a DM could cause permadeath, my drunken actions one year ago would have resulted in this already.

I don't really care who is making the decision to kill my character, I'm not going to like it any better coming from a DM than a player. In fact, since my policy on persistent worlds is that the players should shape the world and the DMs provide the "icing", I'd be even more miffed it it came from a DM.

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I wouldn't be adverse to a harsher penalty of some sort but perma-death? Hmm...I'll pass for right now. Tho I may change my mind on it in the future if a good & reasonable system were put in place.

A harsher penalty, as suggested earlier, something like 4 RL days or even a RL week would be pretty nifty imo. If perma-death or harsher penalties are added then I think a person should have the -option- to create a max level toon at character startup.

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YANKEE ROSE
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I think the original idea is something that just needs to be worked on so we don't laught at death, but at the same time aren't locked in a stasus. I see the same people throwing the same taunts and insults at eachother quite often, because both players KNOW it won't effect anything to beat the tar out of eachtoher. I think a counter for pvp/DM event death is a good idea persoanly. If a character gets killed in these circumstances it should effect them greatly, hunting is just some silly side stuff that encorporates some RP but the intercharacter and interfaction conflicts are the actual story of the server and I think it would make characters more like actual people to have a risk of death when dealing with eachother.

Heres some ideas for it:
1. A PvP death counter, you die lets say 10 times in pvp your character is toast. That way you don't just get offed from one encounter you lost (Artemious kept coming back after Drizzt how many times?) but there's still a serious weight to be put behind your actions, one of you is going to get closer to permadeath when your words turn to actions.

2. I like the severe xp loss idea, not necessarily lvl loss but an increased Xp loss on death without it stopping at the lvl. I've died 200 xp from lvling and it's a much more crushing blow than 200 xp after the lvl, because you don't lose lvls. I'm prety sure it's possible to make it straight xp per lvl loss without hitting a lvl and stopping. If you ae supposed to lose 5,000 xp, and you're 200 xp over the lvl you just got, guess what, you're now 4,800 away from that lvl again on the same note, if you're say 200 xp from that lvl and you die you're 5,200 xp away now. Xp loss is explained usualy as the diluting of the soul after death and loss of memory, I've had a lvl 40 character who I lvled 76 times because she died and lost lvls, was still fun, but there was a efinate consequence to her death.

3. Permadeath/XP loss. This is an idea I've never seen implimented and it's probaby going to effect absolutly nothing except for people who realy have a bad string but here it is... You lose a lvl from death 3 times in a week you're dead. Your soul has become too diluded to return to your physical body.

Just some ideas to make things not so heavy, and by the looks of things I might just be able to squeeze out not leaving cause I got an interview tomorrow!!!!!!

I don't care on what people say about Amia or what its gameplay is like. I, for one, do not like the idea of having people perma-dead just because people don't like having others solo-ing monsters or getting all the good loot. You just have to fight hard for it, or get the DC's to buy it through awesome (or atleast average) RP when a DM is around.

Turning Amia into a hardcore RP server will only bring in complaints and probably attract less players. What next? We have to keep eating food like people have to do on Arelith?

So, my decision will stand and always stand: (Censored) no to Perma-death characters unless they wish to do so through RP with other people, or do so at their own will.

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Just wanted to add:

Its discussions like this which offer players the opportunity to speak their piece and be listened to, which make Amia what it is. Bravo.

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Note, though, that in my view of how permadeath should be used, it is always within your hands as the player to choose. There is no such thing as "surprise, you're permadead."

You know, before embarking upon the critical action, that you risk death, but in turn stand to reap the bigger heap of icing from the cake. Therefore, you do shape the world as a player, but you do so with a genuine challenge.

EDIT: And, after reading your suggestion, I kinda dig it, Didi.

Also, good timing, Kjetta. It seems this subject is very topical at the moment.

Amia already has as many people as it does because we're not a "Hardcore" RP server.

Turning Amia into a "Hardcore" RP server will not result in more players gained, only splitting the audience of other already well established "Hardcore" servers and the loss of Amia's own brand of players.

My point is that making any form of Permadeath to reflect a more "Hardcore" server for the purpose of not "loosing" players is futile. We already have a good migration from Hardcore servers just as well as we have a migration to them. That's playerbase osmosis, people find and play what they like. The fact that we have as many players as we already do should speak to that end.

Trying to turn Amia into something else is sorta a slap in the face of everyone who plays it for what it is already, and has played it, and will continue playing it. Be your attempts at realism and OoC fear leading to IC fear as justified as you might make them, the bottom line is we have our niche, and I've personally yet to be convinced why we should shift to reflect otherwise.



And on that point I'd like to say that the "challenge" comes from IC, and playing a character well, not really OoC penalties. In other words, the risk of permadeath is not the "challenge." It is the result of a failing a challenge IC. It is the aftermath of failure, an ad hoc that trifles people OoCly for what may have been perfectly legitimate roleplay IC.

Here's a visual:

We have a gap here. A pit between two ledges, a span of about 2 meters. At the bottom of this pit are what appears to be thousands of sharp spikes. The Challenge is to make the jump across.

The spikes being real are representative of Permadeath. The matter of the spikes comes into play after you have already failed the challenge. The challenge is just as hard, just as difficult without them. They may add fear to that challenge, but nothing to the actual challenge in terms of difficulty. However, the same fear is attainable with fake spikes that represent softer, less harsh death penalties like XP drain and loss. You can still add to the percieved "risk" of the situation without damning those gutsy enough to take the challenge in the first place, should they fail.

A bit of column A a bit of Column B, Mago.

And for the summative record, with WonWon's recommendation I would be for Permadeath. Followed also by Nivo's thought on making certain battles also be considered open for such.

Quoting this because In the DM event permadeath situation, this is where I I see the ideal groove being, not every DM event but moments where you KNOW death is a risk.

Nope, Dark Immolation. Without permadeath, the spikes do not exist. Nor does the pit. There is only a perfect path to victory.

The only exception is if you are me, because even without permadeath, I imagine the risk of permadeath, and the spikes and the pit become as real to me as they should within the confines of the IC universe.

But you are not me, and the playerbase is not me. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion!

Because permanent death, the OoC of no longer being able to play your character, is the only "loss" understandable to the playerbase. At least that's what that would point to.

My PC get's beat up, tortured, killed, thrown under a bridge, and maybe after a few hours(IC or IRL), ressurected. I consider the day a "loss" just fine.

By that reasoning, anything less than permanency is a failure at a "risky" challenge as well. Any healing magic, restoration, all of it is harmful to RP. All healing should be banned as well. Because if you really knew you might get permanently maimed going to fight a goblin, you'd keep your butt in the city. You'd be cautious like you would IRL. You'd be a normal person, playing a normal person. No do overs, no healing, no second chances.

I realize that's strawman, but I'm simply trying to prove the point that permancy adds little if anything to any aspect of the RP you wish to engender. Hyperbole works better than truth sometimes in this situation, because it's the same perception applied to another concept. If those examples seems illogical, then you have to realize what you suggest towards Death seems just as illogical to others, and correct or incorrect as they may be, they're still the playerbase.

So I'll have to say no to your statement, Yoss. The fact that there is no permancey does not gaurantee a "perfect path to victory", nor does it mean it's any less of a challenge to attain victory. It gaurantees multiple attempts to acheive that victory, but so does every other game.

Yossi, much as you're an interesting person and your abilities as a writer, RPer and DM are amongst the very best of this server.. if we were all you, we would not have the range of difference needed to keep things interesting for very long. ^^;

I'll throw my two bits into the pot here.

I do not believe that permadeath is a good solution/course of action here. Personally, I'm one of those loser types who enjoys the freedom of being able to be somebody else for a certain amount of time during the day before I go back to studying and leading an otherwise unexciting life. I spend a lot of time on every character I make, including the minor alts who make the occasional cameo appearance, and my core three alone have developed back stories that are already several chapters long. I put a lot of creative effort and time into developing these characters and their personalities, and I really enjoy playing them with the Amia community.

Do I PvP? Yes. Do I hunt? Duh. Do I occasionally foolishly solo? Yes, I do. But ask anyone who RPs in the Bendir Dale area, and they'll easily tell you that the majority of my time in the server on any of my characters is spent roleplaying rather than hunting. In fact, I only have one level 30 character out of seven or so.

However, that said, I do enjoy the occasional run through a hunting area, and I do often get involved in PvP situations. I know the repetitive triviality of watching the same bad guy get up and come back every single time, as well as watching people run solo through epic areas to get their butts handed to them and pop back up the next reset like nothing happened.

So yes, I do believe there should be a harsher consequence for death, however I don't believe that permadeath is the answer. Personally, if permadeath is implemented, my days of leaving social areas are over. I won't hunt, won't make new characters, and I'll just stay cooped up in a city or other safe location until some incident occurs where my character happens to die, and then I'll leave the server.

Personally, I'm all for the suggestions of resurrection rituals and legitimate spell component usage for raises. Another suggestion which may have been mentioned is that after a certain level, say five-ish, when a character dies in any method aside from PvP, they have to hang out on the Fugue plane for a certain amount of time according to their level or some other variable. Say Player X was bossfarming, accidentally lost his GS bubble and was consequentially pyropwned by the mass of angry spawns he'd triggered. Player X is level 30 and died in a similar fashion not long ago. Player X can't just wait for reset, because they're transported to the Fugue plane (without the respawn option) and must remain there for X number of resets, or until his RP buddies (assuming he has any) perform the proper resurrection spell.

Just a thought.

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Characters I play:
Kira Cottonfoot - Hin Bardess
Kirby Cottonfoot - Arcane Trickster

Okay...If you want my most honest opinion, here goes...

Forced permadeath is (probably) the most stupid idea I've heard in a long time. It's one thing when it's agreed to, but forced? Not a chance...

...Except in certain PvP or DM event situations. THAT I can live with. But still, only in certain ones, not even every one that ends in death.

Harsher death penalties I can handle, certainly. I'd suggest something like "Resurrection Sickness", something that leaves the character actually physically sick and disabled for a while - be it an hour or until reset. Like, reduce all stats to 6 (Or, in the case of CON, as far down as it can go before killing the character) until it's gone.

Also, time waiting to be resurrected (in a matter of minutes, not hours or resets) is also a good idea in my opinion.

But the moment Permadeath becomes forced is the moment it stops being fun for me and a lot of other people.

My honest opinion is this: This was never supposed to be real. It's a game, an alternate world. Realism doesn't count here, and why should it if it sacrifices fun?

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Elvannrae: The Palest Elf
Charrae "Zarual" Swiftshadow: The Amnesiac Monk
Quealé Nirivani: Kin of the Fey
Rue Aridonaire: Wind-Touched Hin

In-Game Login: KestalEluith

I'm against 'forced' perma death, simply becaused it's forced. If you want to off your own character that's entirely up to you. And what is wrong with characters who have been around a long time? I personaly have several characters who are quite old and I find it only gives them more depth.

There are plenty of other ways to make Amia more appealing, forcing perma death is not the way in my opinion.

So I'd give it a "Hell no!"

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Busy old fool, unruly Sun, Why dost thou thus, Through windows, and through curtains, call on us ? - John Donne

I am kind of on the fence now, too.

I permakilled three characters: Rizzen, May'Une and Valkirya (this one is dying "Off Screen").

I have no plans of bringing May'Une or Valkirya back and their deaths had meaning at least to my other PCs. It was not a huge work gone to waste.

I would have kept Rizzen dead even wanting to bring him back because to me the joy of playing him was killed, unable to survive the stress that accompanid leading a faction. However, the members of the faction wanted him back. I resisted the urge perhaps for a month, and then I finally yielded and brought him back.

During Tranny's Plague plot, I told him it was okay if Auron had to die even though I was attached, because I felt that there would probably be a meaning to his dead: whether as a martyr, or the plaguebearer that could have killed an entire race, whatever; there was going to have some meaning either way. I just started changing my mind when I noticed that things were going slow and then I worried his death would be meaningless, when then I was disappointed.

Either way, I am on the fence. I have nothing against it, as long as the DMs can make sure things will not get out of hand and unfair.

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BlackDahlya

Once Upon A Time Played
Adr'ael Ken'rahel, Auron Teken’ath, Aurora Mesodias, 'Daniel' Daoskinaxarijikkym, Eilin'ira, Helena Rios, Layla Faircurrent, May'Une Do'Ndar, Mellinda Tellus, Michael of Cliffside, Rizzen of Twilight, Valkirya d'Claddath

Speaking as someone who has perma-killed a character by choice (a character who had some strong political standing, even, at least to some people), I think it can be a very rewarding experience. When you constantly hear people asking you to bring the character back, or seeming genuinely upset/touched/angered at the death, it makes you feel this sense of accomplishment and meaning.

The problem with the permadeath being forced is that instead of death becoming more feared, it'd become the stagnant route. Rather than "Oh, I'll just be Raised in a minute. No big deal" we'd get "Oh, another character died. Oh, well."

That's probably not a huge problem, but I'm only speaking from my own experience, and as someone who doesn't have to worry about a character dying very often.

Overall, I think I'm rather torn on the issue. I would love to see the impact it could have on many angles, but I dread many things about the idea which would have to remain silent until the way it would be implemented became known. For example, griefing by other players puts a big "Not worth the headaches to come" in this from me, but if PvP is not one of the avenues where permadeath is possible, then that doesn't really matter.

Sadly, I'll have to sit and wait on this one.

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I believe that a happy medium is somewhere between all of this.

Make DM events a pathway where you can have the BIG 'advance' 'growth' 'shaping' moments of your character. IC fame, IC notoriety, IC wealth(Treasure), IC power, IC recognition, IC Political gain, et al can be had. It is also where proportional IC concequences come. Pretty much give a blanket warning that ALL DM events CAN and WILL change your character in some possible way. Big or small, it very likely will occur. Alignment shifts, paradigm shifts, divine recognition for those folk, perhaps unearthing something unique, that can be followed to more RP, more events. These need not be long term, sweeping, hard to plan/maintain things.

We need concequences for just 'Living' in Faerun. DM's can be an eye in a sky and add so much with so little. An alignment nudge, sign from a god, a simple reaction of a NPC to a crowd of adventurors milling about. Things that take minutes, or less to do. A simple reminder of a character's flaw/perks based on their character sheet/bio via npc interaction. Just plain old more interaction between the world and the players, even if they're one off, simple etc.

I believe more -consequences- for DM events would be good step in the right direction here. Long term damage and changes to player's PC's which are -out of their own hands- should be completely possible. And more common. Ergo: The time derrangement my young sorceress and her companions recieved from a certain event.

These could help stimulate rp. They needn't be physical things such as scars or limb loss, but they could very well be. We NEED changes, they could be spiritual changes, emotional changes, or psychological changes. They should offer future opportunity for RP. The type things that can develop even without player/character intention. If the PC wants to 'fix it'. Let them RP their way to a fix, that may never be found.

People also tend to forget our PC's have seen a thing or two, done a thing or two, and should be forced into situations they're not use to. A false sense of safety has cropped up in the cities with NPC guards. Faerun is dangerous.. if it had its teeth back a lot of this too 'social' concept can be changed without losing players. Random kidnapping, abductions by cults for strange rituals, highwaymen besetting you and demanding gold to let you by. Needn't be "haha DM NPCs gank you", but.. more along the line of ransom events. Random, semi 'generic' actions that can give people both fun, a sense of accomplishment, and some IC sense of 'Hey I really should be prepared, evil DOES exist and it DOES lurk around the corner, and I might be next.'

Finally, onto permadeath..

I believe that permadeath should be the 'Ultimate', course of action, not the first not even utilized, I believe it should be something only in a DM hands too. It should be reserved for things of true, ultimate danger and carry with it true earnest reward.

Permadeath should be given a warning. Basically 'Wary ye he all who pass beyond this point: Death Can Come. Maybe not in so many words IC, but.. an obvious 'point of possibility of no return.' As well as an OOC notification by the DM that going further risks far more than just damage, scar, derrangement, but possibly will lead to 'Not existing anymore' and at that point Players can choose if they/their character wish to stay or run away to fight another day.

I also believe 'Permadeath' should also be an option when a character's status or action of what they are doing would be irrevokably and summarily delt with. Someone that's proven themselves an true danger, or doing something Completely maddeningly brazen, dangerous and foolhardy. That's not to say the person cannot be returned to life via True ressurection, unless they can not. (Soul is taken/stored via necromancy etc).. however then again one can always try to Roleplay recovering it which can lead to more RP, a prospect of recovering the PC that was lost by their friends/factionmates.

OOC Documentation of the death warning and player consent must be logged. (Ergo screenshots of people agreeing to it and proceeding.) Any time a PC is 'permadeathed' by a DM there has to be adequate documentation of why/how, it happened as well as the outcome that will be reviewable by other staff members. This should include possible means of recovery of said PC to be returned to life. Simply these things will both be covering the DM's arse and possible future attempts to recover/revive that player character if the DM moves on/Retires/Dissapears/Has Vaction et al.

Some people can react quite negatively even after giving leave that they understand their character can be killed during an event. Having factual proof of agreement and saying: "You agreed. I'm sorry, but you knew of the possibility." Is a very large retardant.

These things allow for permadeath, without it being 'forced', as someone must give leave to the possibility to continue. But as Mago said, increased risk should also hold increased reward proportionally.

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Dwagin [Duh-wa-GIN] N. - 1a. Small and cute thingum, particularly fond of four legged scaled creatures of the metalic and chromatic varieties.

-Extraordinarily ordinary in the mostest of ways.

Hello! I don't play here very often really (Also my grammar/spelling is terrible, dyslexia! Beaaar with me).

But, I did admin another server that will remain unnamed - a friend showed me this topic and I thought I would add my two cents.

Anyway without much ado...!

My thoughts on the subject as follows, permadeath is a big thing and in some ways a good thing - HOWEVER, implementing permadeath to reduce server stagnation and make Amia a hardcore roleplay server will not work, how will placing in Permadeath make the people who you say are 'caught in a glorified msn' suddenly become better roleplayers? (I'll assume that's what we're aiming for here.), if anything it'll will make said players stay in no-pvp zones and shy away from developing as better roleplayers through interaction with some more 'hardcore' and veteran players.

You are always going to have players who treat Amia as a chatroom, in my opinion it doesn't hurt the server and if anything helps it, the only reason I started playing on Amia is because of how many players it had, how popular it is. 65/65 on most nights! Most servers would kill for that amount of players, I know mine would.

In my opinion... if you want Amia to be a 'hardcore' roleplay server you make gaining exp harder so when you see a level 30 you don't say "Oh, so how many epic spells can you cast? 3? Hah! I can cast four!" that shouldn't really be a conversation in my opinion.

That said... most of the players who come here to assert the control they lack in real life mostly keep with cliques of their friends - I don't have a problem with these players and if I find the roleplay is stagnating I go elsewhere.

Now...

Permadeath through PVP can be a good thing. How many characters have nemsises' ? How many characters -bother- trying to kill said nemesis because said character would simply come back next reset?

E.g.

Gorthod: I really want to kill Darthion.
Cera: Why? No one stays dead here.
Gorthod: Somewhere Kelemvor is weeping, but you're right.

However indiscriminately pvping everyone and permakilling them is also equally retarded.

In my opinion permadeath should be something done through DM plots, and PVP if both players consent and take screenshots as proof. Does that mean you're going to die permanently next time you get PVP'd? No, definately not. Introduce PVP through permadeath and why not introduce PNP spells that can make permanent death all that more difficult?

Such as... Clone!

And the problem with permadeath through PVM is simple. Lag. I would lose SO many characters through lagging.

I've got alot more to say on the subject but instead I will quote something on my other forum that may shed some light.

[/quote]

I have another idea to throw in the mix. People say that the loss of effort and advancement from permadeath would be devastating.

So as above with the choices and consequences list, let people who choose the risk of permadeath start at whatever level is reasonable. Chances are, you're going to need that boost up in order to be a real threat.

If you choose not to face the risk of permadeath then you start at the normal starting level.

What this means is, if you want to create a throwaway hero or villian who really dies and doesn't keep coming back, then you can. If you want a character who endures a lot longer, then you can have that too. It's the best of both worlds, with nothing forced on anyone who doesn't want it.

Just to point us back to what is really being discussed here. We are talking about who has the right to tell you to perma your PCs. Of which in my view is nobody. A DM can suggest that you should perma based on lore since it is the task of a DM to maintain the integrity of the world we play in but the final choice is still the player's.

In truth the reason a permadeath /system/ is flawed is that /every/ death has RP around it that is likely to allow for a rez. Such as Daniel handing out diamonds to his friends and making sure they know a good cleric that can True Rez. Each one would have to be taken case by case and that's more work then anyone wants. Hence I repeat myself. It's not broke. Don't try and fix it.

As a side note have you ever been in a sacrifice RP or a PvP and maybe /suggested/ to the person that they should consider a perma from it? Give it a try if you think that they should think about it. Some people don't even consider at the time that it's an opinion. Many will say no and you just go on with it. Doesn't have to be a RP stopping thing.

Edit:

*points down* Amen

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Guys I play:
Finng Meras
Joshua Steel
Daniel Makie
Celub Elubmiire
Tristan
Len'ionel

Well if you ask me, people leaving the server for other server does not necessarily indicate a wish for more rules for death. It could simply be that there are other issues which aren't getting the spotlight.

Sorry if that seems like I'm turning the topic on its head, but unless you interview everyone who leaves, you aren't going to know if a particular feature (or absence of a feature) is what they're looking for.

Regardless, I like Dwagin's idea. I think that our friendly neighborhood Amian dragon has come to a very truthful conclusion. With or without permadeath, what her post suggests would definately increase player effort and loyalty (at least, it would mine).

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Espiel Callahan

What I am reading from various DM posts, I reckon it is not about turning Amia into a hardcore server, rather setting the ground for a dynamic environment. Correct me if I am wrong.

Theres nothing wrong with chars RPing their cup of tea for years. Its troublesome if you want to advance things instead of running in circles. As I said before, all good stories have a beginning and an ending. Not this.

Forced permadeath? eh... iffy...

I like Arelith's hardcore token thing. some added bonus for a 10 death(respawn without raise dead) limit.

Thank you. I was concerned no one read my post. Lol. Loss of time as opposed to character/levels seems a much fairer compromise in my eyes. I would much rather deal with a loss of a day of playing as opposed to feeling like I WASTED a day of playing. You know?

If I know I have to wait X amount of resets to play that character again, I'll either play another character that I have (stimulating more RP) or go out and enjoy my real life (one of the main driving points in another thread I saw in the GD here - something about wasted social lives and trying to make up for it here on Amia). In my opinion, it is much friendlier to take away play time from a character than to tell someone "Hey you just wasted 8 monts or whatever leveling your character. You can't play it now and you have no say."

It just seems like bad manners.

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You could start implementing the old school method of loosing a point of constitution every time you got raised, which you couldn't replace by magical or mundane means.

I am in support of perma-death risks in high stakes DM plots, if the DM who is running the event clearly indicates such before to all involved.

Remember when we had the Great Tarkuul Battle, Yoss? I believe it was you who was the Voice of Tarkuul, and I wonder if you remember the players reactions when you , or whomever it was (Darthion you were there too, so were you Xaviera...) that was DM'ing who said as the Voice "Your souls will be fed to the furnaces of Tarkuul, your bodies will burn until nothing but spit and ashes remain."

And people freaked the hell out... almost immediately going OOC with ""//is this permadeath?"

I think it needs to be an OPTION. I think the DM's need to have that option to enforce something when the situation warrants it. It needs to be communicated to the playerbase that the option is THERE.

So if you're a Evil character who constantly attacks and murders people, to a point of having a large amount of infamy, and a group of good characters gets together to capture you and bring you to trial... and your buddies can't bust you out and your sentanced to DEATH, then permadeath needs to be a real possibility.

There's other examples, but the point is DM's already dictate quite a few things beyond player control..

that's their friggin JOB.

If your a good character who gets attacked once, and sacrificed, then your remains get found and you get raised, don't just get up and be like "Oh yeaaaa, dude, that was gnarly"... use it as a RP opportunity!

Permadeath should be an option available to the DM's. As long as we, the playerbase, understand it is an option, then all is good and as it should be.

Regards,

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"Come under the flag of truce, and brook no treason... for mineself is Death, and care not whom knows mine touch."
- Frey Asaid'De Majere

I've not read this through and through, and I stopped at this, because I have a better idea.

If you want quality, if you want people to know what a wood elf is and does when they create it, you introduce applications, for everything.

Every new character made should pass through a checker, every new player has to know what they're doing, an appication would do wonders in that aspect.

I've been on many forums, I've seen many different ways of attracting and keeping players of many kinds, none have been more successful than application-with places. It's the most efficient way of trimming the weeds, because they never have the will to write an app.

That's my two coins.

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Get Ready for It
Forum lurker.

I would argue it being the most efficient way of weeding out bad apples. Of course, our definitions of efficiency could be a bit different, but I wouldn't say anything that adds extra layers of bureaucracy is efficient.

Mind that we have half that system in place already, so we got some understanding of the workings in practice. It's very good on paper, but the practical application is a bit different. You gotta have this secretary/office fetish to enjoy DMing on a server that has it on every character. The bad apples don't exactly get weeded out by not writing up apps, but they create hours of extra reading work instead...

If people are going to perma-kill their char, this isn't going to start it. They're going to do it anyway.

I'm with Mathias and Mago on this, in a couple of places. "Forced permadeath on PvP", for someone like Mago, who's in PvP /constantly/, just beause of the character concept, you're just going to be encouraging fluffy RP that people like Mago simply are not interested in; the Cordor Snuggle Quad, as we all know so well.

And personally, I feel as Mathias does. If you try to force me into perma-ing (or force me into anything, really), my character, I'm gonna leave. I'm not interested in that. I really don't have an issue with raises. It's been thus forever, and evil people like Darthion, like Frey, and not-evil bad guys like Sharina have made a hell of a name for themselves just the same. Yes, it's taken years. And instituting forced permas, I feel, deprives people like me, or JoeBlow1420 down the way from having that chance.

I like the death system as it is. Leave it be.



Mark of Destiny. Or, the DMs can, for exceptionally bad RP, implement the Mark of Doom. Can be awesome; I've RPed with people that have gone out in a blaze of absolute glory with it. But I've also seen amazing, amazing RP permadeath out of people who DIDN'T have it. (I'm looking at you, Daedin and Arlan Garrinson!) Stories that /still/ make me tear up, and characters that have had impact for real life years after their passing.

It's not about the death. It's about the living.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

One system they used in the early days of Aertheca (H1 as it was known) was the Permadeath zone. During Factional/Guild wars, characters would enter the permadeath zone and knowing when you entered there, the outcome, was well....permanently decided.

That way, permadeath via PvP wasn't forced upon anyone, but you knew that if you wanted an outcome to a conflict, it could be achieved, if both sides agreed to the fight.

There were usually gravestones after such events, with permanent names of members who fell in battle. It was grand!

Outside of the permadeath warzone, there was no Permadeath other than via DM events. Mind that PvP, did cost gold and xp but you could level to 40 in no time anyway there.

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Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell
Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks
Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess

I'm not down for permadeath unless the player decides to.

Bring resurection closer to pnp rules IMO.

-Raise dead costs 5000gp for components alone, and docks a level,a nd takes ten minutes to cast.

-Find a stronger priest and get a resurrection for 10 000 gp, again a 10 minute casting time, but no level loss.

-True Resurrection (Dont know if this exists in NWN, but maybe it can be cast with DM supervision) for 25 000 gp, and it can bring back characters who's body was never recovered (eg they were eaten or thrown into a pit of lava)

All of these methods require other PCs to cooperate and actually care enough about your character to find you a priest and go to this trouble, otherwise you could lay dead for a whole reset.

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Vaylek - The Worst Guy
Pu Liu - Descendant of the Great River Dragon

True Rez was prevalent on my first server (Richterm's Retreat Nordock Epic). Cost 25000 gold and kept you from losing the 10-20% XP loss that raising or respawning cost.

It was a pain in the ass, but eminently preferable to permadeath or the massive lvl hit.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

I've been rather eloquent, but perhaps a little bit more bluntly will express my view, and possibley the view of a few others.

"I decided when my story starts. Why in hell should someone else decide when it ends?"

You can torture my character. You can beat his brains in, defame him, strew his viscera across the Isle and back. Maybe even encourage me to "make him go away" for a while after a traumatic enough event. Maybe implement a system of mechanics that makes him go away for a set time anway. But even though I'm putting my character into a world that's a community, the character at the end of the day is still that: Mine.

It is a selfish sentiment. But rightly so. It's validated by the fact that one may spend hours upon hours hammering out a story, background, the whole nine yards. Am I to beleive that I have to sacrifice my own work to uphold someone else's attempt at having realism in a fantasy game? The fact that someone else's fragile suspension of disbeleif is upheld by my character dying permanently is supposed to console me?

I'm sorry, but the sheer notion of Permadeath in any case but the players' hands shows an unabashed disregard for the fact that DnD, NwN, Amia are all games, first and foremost. Not screenplays, not some simulator for real life, a roleplaying game. A game that intrinsically has the option for "multiple lives".

Even in the case of a DM event, permadeath would still have to reside in the player's hands without somehow discouraging RP. To do otherwise would infer that RPing without the possibility of Permadeath is somehow less richer, less full Roleplay. Which is just not true. Like having a group come upon the tower of a demilich and saying "You can choose to go in, but you have to accept the risk of permadeath." If the PC is ICly valiant enough, but the player OoCly not willing to risk loosing their character, you have a skew. Does it mean because I'm not willing to accept your OoC penalty that I am less apt of a roleplayer? Does the fact that I accept your possibility of penalty in any way mean that I am a better roleplayer?

No and no. Fine to say "hey, if you die in here, be prepared to not be allowed/expected to log in with him for maybe a week or so." But suggesting someone accept random numbers or happenstance to ending their PC's story permanently is almost guilt-tripping them.

Make death as hard as you want. Make a set time to wait to come back from death. That's fine. But I say again, the day when we take the Permadeath button from the players is a day we've made a grave mistake.

In most games there is the very stern possibility of losing. Hence the challenge of a game.

This is especially true in DnD. Characters die for the long term, and usually that's the DM's call.

Not to mention, the supposed 'hours of work' still get their use. Just because a character died permanently, doesn't mean every experience you had with them suddenly stops existing.

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Mostly Retired

I am totally with Dark.

Further, if the RP standard is something you want to encourage, death isn't the place to start.

To be honest, Arelith can think whatever they want about us. I RP both places, and the RP here is LIGHT YEARS above there. And they're considered one of the best RPing places on the game. There are some morons that stagger through. We do lose people to "hardcore" servers. But the vast majority of /this server/, which is full more often than not, don't want "hardcore". It's why we're HERE and not there.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Complete, utter and epic seconded to that

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Guys I play:
Finng Meras
Joshua Steel
Daniel Makie
Celub Elubmiire
Tristan
Len'ionel

I'm full against forced perma-death. Frankly, there isn't anything to change my mind about it. Simply put, if I wanted to play on a perma-death server, I would be playing at one instead of here on Amia. It's that simple.

That said, there's no doubt that there is an issue with death lacking meaning for most people. Perma-death is not the answer to this problem, if you ask me. Optional perma-death, ala Arelith, is fine. As has been stated, since, apparently, Arelith is doing well at gaining players and we're falling in players, an optional perma-death will add to the, so called, “hardcore RP” style some people might crave without alienating the, seemingly, not so hardcore RPers.

Let me move forward as to why I feel forced perma-death is a very bad idea though:

First, the griefing potential in forced perma-death has -major- losses. After all, losing a character is a bigger deal than losing levels (permanently or temporarily), losing gold, losing items and anything else IC, to be frank. So, while it may be true that nearly anything can be exploited, letting the possibility for the ultimate loss to be exploited is a really bad and destructive idea for a server who has existed for years without it.

Second, I agree with Koragi when she stated that perma-death might just become a stagnant route, rather than a way for death to be feared. She said it nicely: “Rather than 'Oh, I'll just be Raised in a minute. No big deal' we'd get 'Oh, another character died. Oh, well.'” I agree fully with her here.

Third, I read Iron mention that this might be a solution to “low quality RP”. What low quality RP? I have heard the outcry, along with a lot of you, about death not being feared and there not being enough consequences to death, but I have yet to hear an outcry from the player base about there being “low quality RP” on Amia. If anything, good RP has been a, generally, good attribute to our server.

Fourth, I have a strong feeling that player run factions will take a nose dive, even more than now. Faction leaders might see an increase in attacks (PvP). With this will come the death of faction leaders and the forced passing of the torch to other players who may or may not be good, OOCly, at running factions and the faction will soon die or become comatose like some are currently. I'd hate to see a poor idea like forced perma-death contribute to the number of dieing or comatose factions. I'm more so worried about faction falling into the leadership of players who sit and let the faction die though, to be honest. While you may be thinking to yourself “deal with it IC! Now you can KILL or threaten to kill crappy faction leaders!” and while that may be true, forcing someone who starts a faction to pass the torch because you've forced perma-death on them doesn't sit well with me. At all.

Fifth, the argument about people who get attached to their characters is irrelevant in my eyes. I won't lie when I admit I've been attached to characters before. But, when I say attached, I mean that I enjoy playing them when I play on Amia. Not that I live through them, they become an extension of me or that I live a social life through them. No way, nothing like that. I have a social life, thanks, I have a great life I like to live to the fullest, thanks, and while a lot of my characters have attributes that might relate to me as a person (making it easier, more enjoyable to play a deep and developed character), they are certainly -not- extensions of myself. For those who have an, arguably, unhealthy attachment to a character, I simply say this: It's not my problem and its not your problem either. This is a game, not a psychiatrist office, psychologist office, metal ward or hospital. We're not at fault, nor should we have to change our gaming experience because of someone(s) mental instability. They deal with that, not me, not you, not us.

Beyond all that, as I've stated, I do believe there's an issue with there being a lack of fear toward death on the server. There's no doubt about it. Because of this, I do indeed support Disco's call for adding consequences to death. Here are some ideas that might work:

1. Temporary level drain for hours, a day or days if you're killed. This level drain wouldn't be negated by anything. Only time will make it go away. If the character dies more times after the first while this drain is in effect, have it stack on itself, allowing for it to stack to the point where they hit level one if they die enough times.

2. Someone mentioned an idea for a ritual being required in order to raise someone. I think it was Disco. This is a good idea to expand on as well, I think.

3. It was announced that the fountains of purification were going to be removed. This will play a big role in adding, maybe not fear, but some meaning, to fighting and dieing. You don't get a free heal anymore. You ask for it or you pay for it. I'm looking forward to this being done.

4. Make raise scrolls and/or heal pots harder to come by. Maybe even to the point where you can only buy them from PC's or at a heavy price through limited NPC's.

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My Characters:
Yuilith Kethil Menaiivan Garadeth

Firstly, I disagree with permadeath being forced. I like the RP that it generates, but character leveling and developing is such a long and arduous process that it doesn't seem like a worthy balance.

If permadeath were to be enforced, I would think that PvM deaths should follow the certain number of deaths system. Maybe a set number of 10 or 15 per character with the option of buying more with DC/request/whatever.

PvP, however, is open to too much abuse. I think a consent option in the PvP wand would make this more viable. If both parties agree to have an epic (and final) battle, then they should both set their wands to "permadeath." Even this could have a set number, though considerably lower (maybe 5).

I dunno, just my thoughts.

EDIT: PvM's experience rates should be increased as a result of the addition of permadeath. More risk, more reward..

Whatever happened to the "RP-Lite" server where nothing was forced upon us?

I second Dark's word, btw.

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Metalien Sikth Wiki Page: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Metalien_Sikth

RP lite, Amia is not. Never has been, last I checked.

Second point , i believe this is why it is an open discussion we are having and not a gripe fest about a rule already implemented.

In PnP that happens iff you have no levels to lose.



Except, ignoring the occasional piece of Deus ex Machina, if you have access to a body part and a Res spell, you can always bring them back (minus a level or con point).


I play Amia for fun. I may be called a casual gamer and not a hardcore RPer, but I like the balance we have in Amia. Having to start all over again is not fun for me, with the occasional exception (I may have more than one character, but I don't have scores). When I play Dragon Age, do I restart the entire game when I get a party wipe? No. Will I restart if I want to try out a new character? Yes. The same thing applies here.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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Hardly. There are plenty of ways you can 'stay dead' in DnD.

Soulgem doesn't kill you, but you'll be damned if you're getting out of it.

Turning someone into an Undead makes it quite a bit trickier to raise them.

The more epic you get, the easier it is. It's a pretty big part of the challenge of playing a game, especially those of the DnD and NWN Chains. The whole "Don't Die" part is a pretty big factor.

And of course, there's also the other point that alot of people miss - In DND, if the entire party manages to get killed, what happens? They're dead, end of game, roll 4d6 for new starting stats.

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Mostly Retired

Interesting point to take note of is that NWN is no longer really attracting people who bought it in the bargain bin, or people who have heard and want to play it. It's attracting hardcore RPer's as it's known throughout the RP community as the real only alternative to PnP RP. NWN2 is an alternative, but lacks a LOT of features.

So really it's true, the new incoming players are here seeking an experience that is alternative to the PnP experience, not a social easy going experience that Amia used to cater for. If you want new players, you will need to cater for this new group of players. Yes some current players will complain about it, probably because they are part of a dying demographic in NWN.

It then comes down to choosing what is more important, sticking with the older players, or attracting newer players.

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I keels u with my axe!

"Do ye know where the Holy-Flamin' Frost-brand Gronk-slayin' Vorpal Hammer o' woundin' an' returnin' an' Shootin'-Lightnin'-out-yer-bum is?"

Indeed, but did you notice that those ways aren't actually permanent? You can release someone from a soul gem, or destroy the undead. As for party wipe - if you give me a dedicated DM and three other players for a dedicated party every time you want me to play, then I am fine with that reasoning.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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Most of what needs to be said has been said already. However, I think it might be prudent to add something about the effects of Perma-Death and how things would need to be altered to accommodate it.

DCs are valuable commodities that players will often times spend on something for a specific character, be it experience or a unique item. The possibility that this character could be killed (perhaps unexpectedly) without any hope of ever recovering said character would discourage the spending of DCs, as I believe nobody would risk 'wasting' such large numbers of DCs on an item for a PC that could very well die the day after they get their brand new and expensive 15+ DC widget.

The DC system would have to be reconstructed or altered in some way to accommodate this possibility, I believe, should perma-death be initiated.

---

All of that aside, this discussion is still quite lively and ideas are still forthcoming. I am a supporter of death penalties which do not result in the 'turning in of your character sheet' after they die.

I am liking the suggestion of a "resurrection sickness" which penalizes those who die and think they can just get right back up again like nothing happened. As to what would be suitable, I was thinking of something along the lines of a substantial CON reduction, perhaps down to 3, in order to reflect your fragile post-resurrection condition. Perhaps find some way to reduce the movement speed of such characters as well... I'd suggest a heavy object which overburdens them, but people with full inventories could probably avoid that.

The tricky part with the above suggestion is "hwhat kind of duration"? You can't make it until server reset since people would likely grow emboldened as the server approached reset. Perhaps fix it to game time? Twenty-four hours of rest would be forty-eight minutes real time. Too much, maybe? Or perhaps not enough? Too much for the person wanting to go back out and hunt, not enough for the people who want to make sure someone doesn't make their appointment to the business meeting.

To address the former: Yeah, dying is obnoxious when it's against monsters. It slows you down, throws you out of your groove. But seriously. Forty eight minutes can't be all that bad. Spend some time in town trying not to die, or use the 'resurrection sickness' to provide a great roleplay opportunity for yourself and others.

To address the latter: This scenario is a PvP scenario, so if someone doesn't want you to make an appointment, or meeting, or public speech, all they have to do is kill you and take you away, perhaps stow you away somewhere until your opportunity passes, after which they really don't have much need for you anymore and cast you into the river, or sewer, or out for the wolves. Player courtesy suggests that you do not hold said person indefinitely, but that selfsame courtesy suggests that you accept the fact that you died and accept the roleplay consequences of such.

Of course there are logistics to consider for such a thing, such as those who click the "respawn" button anyway or people who simply choose to ignore the fact that they were killed in a fight, choose to respawn, and go to their meeting anyway. It's bad RP, but it's not against the rules, really, as far as I know. The purpose of Permadeath is to prevent such happenings mechanically, but I believe that the players should have the responsibility to manage their own RP to some extent, not have the mechanics handle -everything- for them.

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"Worship me, and you shall know wealth. To guard your funds is to venerate Waukeen and to share them well seeds your future success. Call on me in trade, and I will be there. The bold find gold, the careful keep it—and the timid yield it up."

The party wipe logic actually works differently -


In every scenario, someone else has to want to save you. And have the means to do so.

That isn't always (rarely would be far better) the case. Raising is expensive, most people aren't clerics themselves, acquiring the resources to do so while one-man down is even harder.

At times the situation will simply say "You're Dead."


TO which you can either cry a little because someone you'd apparently worked on for years with zero real reward or payout for that effort (since supposedly the multitude of experiences, fun, and excitement you had along the way account for zip)... Or you can smile, nod, and take it with the approach of "Okay, what do I do next?".

People really need to be less attached to their characters.

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Mostly Retired

Why?

If that attachment is there, it makes it easier to create tension when those characters are in danger, it becomes easier to be immersed and they become easier to RP in my opinion.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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