AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Alternatives To Forced Perma Death (Compiled Quotes!)

Last edited by Torzeng on Mon, Dec 14 2009, 17:53 PM, edited 2 times in total.

This is to try and provide the branch of topic already being shown in the other threat about Perma Death.

Here is for the compillation and (in all hopes respectful) disccusion about alternative solutions.

Yes this is based on the assumption of Perma-Death as not an option.

Quotes from the other thread somewhere after 3 pages had formed: [Yes, these are snipped down intent to show presented ideas only]

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1]

'Generic Standard' wrote:

Do Nothing and Leave Amia how it's Death System Is

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2]

Dev Disco wrote:

For instance: raising takes a full day and some ritual, and every time you die another day is added. That would make death quite a bit more involved.

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3] --nulled by The Great Chicken (Technical errors) -- [Was a level-loss suggestion]--
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4]

WonWon wrote:

DM Events - Permadeath a possibility. Up the rewards to being involved in these events.
PvM - No Permadeath. Much harsher death penalties (even when Raised)
PvP - No Permadeath. No harsher consequences.

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5] --nulled as seen at #3--
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6]

Didi wrote:

...idea of having a limited amount of lives, which took time to recharge. Use up all your lives, and you have to wait until you get some more. Say you have 1 life added to your pot every week, with a maximum of 9 lives in total.

If you don't pay attention and lose all your 9 lives, then every death will take you a week to recover from.

DM events could deduct more than the base 1 death, if you wished.
Leaders of factions could either have less lives, or regenerate them more slowly.

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7]

MoshingChris wrote:

... docking levels/xp on death...

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8]

bluntpencil2001 wrote:

...removing XP from grinding, only giving it for true achievements.

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9]

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Perma-death scripting fires not on death, but on raise attempts. A raise dead scroll purchased from a store has a 20% chance of failure. A Cleric/Druid casting Raise Dead has a 10% chance of failure. And a Cleric/Druid casting Resurrection has a 5% chance of failure. All those coincide, and perhaps if one is failed the others are allowed to be attempted (but not the same method twice).

Finally; if a person is 'permakilled' they are sent to the Fugue, where they await judgment. If they wish their character to survive, they cough up 3 DCs - a hefty price - and return to the world of the living. If not... they go away forever. Period.

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10]

Kezman wrote:

* worst one, the chance to lose a item currently in your inventory meaning people use item banks and not carry all good gear at once. thou you do have chance to regain your loot or lose it, as it would be sitting where you died at. (wont happen through pvp thou)

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11]

Kezman wrote:

something like first time (maybe second, have free respawn and warn players, mostly new what death penalty is) you die you cant play char for a week, next time two weeks and then make it a month everytime after that.

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12]

hendrack wrote:

Instead of PvM permadeath I'd propose loss of complete inventory to drop on the floor.

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13]

Kraniumbrud wrote:

...is request systems...you have a big personal grudge and i mean HUGE..you can file a request to permakill another char, then you get, i think it was a month to kill him 10 times...and he gets the same wish granted so to speak and is informed that he is under the threat of permakill from another char...and he can kill him 10 times in a month and the permakill the requesting persons...

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14]

QPR wrote:

- Stricter multiclassing rules. For example Pal/sorc could be banned. or one could demand that yu must have minimum 5 levels of each class before a certain level, or divide between dual-classing and multiclassing

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15]

QPR wrote:

- Less aviability of potions, items etc that makes things easier. This will strenghten mages, true, so impose costs on spell casting for example.

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16]

QPR wrote:

- IC punishment; for example someone sneaking into Ultrinan and caught will be prisoned for x days, or level docked in x time to represent its imprisonement

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17]

QPR wrote:

- Soft xp caps. This was one of the most succesfull implementations on The Three Kingdoms server in my oppinion; a system where only x amount of levels or xp could be gained in x days, depending on level. Faster progression at low levels, slower at High levels. This could be tuned that it would be impossible to reach epic levels in less than 6 months.

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18]

QPR wrote:

- Make prestige classes request only; you would need DM approval after a request to take them. Mandatory mentoring could also be included, and perhaps extended to certain multiclass examples

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19] --Removed as I accidentally duplicated #18--
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20]

Metalien_XC wrote:

Perhaps a system like I've seen on other servers where a PC's stats <snip> are dropped on a temporary basis when they die?

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21]

Torzeng wrote:

No Entry Way revivals

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22]

Torzeng wrote:

XP Loss/Gold Loss on death- "Instant Respawn" to the fugue plane

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23]

Torzeng wrote:

XP Loss/Gold Loss on death; small deduction that cannot be avoided, but doesn't "Instant Respawn" so that being raised where you died still has some penalty you died at all. [[More penalty totaly if you are solo and have to take a respawn]]

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24]

Torzeng wrote:

"Instant Respawn" if showing up dead in entry way ((works same as not entry way revivals))

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25] --nulled for seen as #3--
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26]

Jyro X wrote:

You are transported to a fugue/afterlife plane while your "corpse" is left in the material plane, to be found and either looted or resurrected by whosoever comes across it.

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27]

Jyro X wrote:

Only one of the player's EQUIPPED items can be looted
And it can ONLY be looted if a sufficient amount of time has passed since death (1-2 hours I'd say)

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28]

Selmak wrote:

four days of being unable to return to the mortal coil ((translation: forced-death of 4 days))

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29]

a normal person wrote:

change the casting time on the spells raise dead and resurection to be longer

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30]

a normal person wrote:

a limt to the number of respawns you get per reset

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31]

Yurell wrote:

... time penalty, and also remove the gold cap lost from death (so a straight 10%). That way the penalties are grievous, but the character is not lost

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Quoting myself from the other topic. I would also add removed gold cap to these:

I do not have a practical suggestion for handling permadeath smoothly; I just believe it should be acceptable in principle. I think there have been a few good ideas worth developing. Each of them has some aspect that I might include:

Dev Disco wrote:

I wouldn't mind a death system that's more severe. For instance: raising takes a full day and some ritual, and every time you die another day is added. That would make death quite a bit more involved.

Didi wrote:

Its much like my own idea of having a limited amount of lives, which took time to recharge. Use up all your lives, and you have to wait until you get some more. Say you have 1 life added to your pot every week, with a maximum of 9 lives in total.

If you don't pay attention and lose all your 9 lives, then every death will take you a week to recover from.

If you are super careful, but run into some hectic trouble which is unusual for you, it wont have much effect, so long as you don't make a habit of it.

PvP 5 times a day? You're going to have a lot of down time.
PvP once a month? No real effect.
DM events could deduct more than the base 1 death, if you wished.
Leaders of factions could either have less lives, or regenerate them more slowly.

Its like Permadeath Lite.

Swallow the Stars wrote:

Perma-death scripting fires not on death, but on raise attempts. A raise dead scroll purchased from a store has a 20% chance of failure. A Cleric/Druid casting Raise Dead has a 10% chance of failure. And a Cleric/Druid casting Resurrection has a 5% chance of failure. All those coincide, and perhaps if one is failed the others are allowed to be attempted (but not the same method twice).

Finally; if a person is 'permakilled' they are sent to the Fugue, where they await judgment. If they wish their character to survive, they cough up 3 DCs - a hefty price - and return to the world of the living. If not... they go away forever. Period.

I like this because it is both a system for permanent death as well as a system for 'more severe death penalties' at once. At the same time this method makes death a serious issue (I might be burning through my precious, hard-earned DCs just to stick around); and, as well, allows for people to 'disappear' forever, giving characters a dynamic feel which is necessary for a good story (that's right, not an Social Server with Action/RP involved - a true roleplaying, story telling server).

In this way, no death is 'forced' - simply suggested to be a possibility, as well as encouraging more RP, more use of that DC wand, etc.

From Disco, I would take the increasing time it takes to be resurrected, and apply it to PvP. From the female Didi, I would take the idea of a limited number of lives, and apply it to both PvM and PvP: only PvP deaths inflict a delay to resurrection, but both PvM and PvP deaths eat your lives and may ultimately result in temporary downtime - until you regenerate your lives. Those who've died more in PvM would face greater risk in PvP, too, and repeated PvM deaths alone could send you in the Fugue.

And finally, I would take into account whether you're raised by Raise scroll, Resurrection scroll, or the spells as cast by a cleric. The exact maths would be done last, but I imagine getting raised by a scroll takes longer or eats more lives than getting a clerical Resurrection.

Any ideas to take this further?

Level loss is a technical horror (RDD, monks, etc), so that kinda cleans up the list.

Right, so, above is a nice long list that demonstates we all have some ideas and interests in how to improve the death system (assuming it is changed) without neccisarily having forced-perma.

I also recognize not all solutions I quoted over adress all perceived issues, then again, it's hard to cover all topics with 1 change.

I realize the other thread by the time I completed the first post had begun to branch into this section of dicussion. My purpose of seperating these out was that Kjetta's topic is based on finding the opinions of a perma-death solution/change. The goal here is to find and discuss the ideas of other solutions/changes.

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Things I've really liked that ideas in seeing, as I read though 3 long pages of discussion already, are those that are made to cater across the board. Basicly ideas that:

1) Don't favor low levels avoiding penalities high levels have
2) A flat rate of change (so 10% for any level of loss xp or gold or other)
3) If forced loss but that x-variable lost is something that can be regained
4) Create real-life time limitation potentials (IE: if you are jailed, we really can keep you in jail for 2RL days)
5) Don't use the DC system in any way

That being, I've enjoyed reading the ideas:
#2, Disco - Raising takes 1 full day and a ritual with increasing delays

#4, WonWon - Don't touch PvP to avoid the griefing fears and potential, up PvM penalties, and DM events become lethal (although must be very well justifiable)

#6, Didi - A "rechargin lives counter" if you will that can be charged to x-vaule. This promotes lying low when you're low on back-up revives but allows you to stock up if you want to go play some good risk by getting ready for it. (Although I would alter that the x-value max cannot be altered for any reason)

#16, QPR - If you're put in jail, you made the risk of that penalty, so we really can put you in jail x-time (limited to how frequently it can be done as to not be a griefing tool); or you take a level penalty to represent that time if you don't want to wait RL time limit out

#23, 24 *cough* My own - small penatly on death regardless to xp and gold (possibly advising a gold bank so you carry less to loose less, more often death meaning less gain for that run) & not being able to lie dead in entryway

#30, a normal person - Specifically I like the limit to repsawns per reset

Well, as far as I understand there are people who leave because there is no permadeath on Amia (or the consequences it leads to). Unbelievable as I find this claim... let's work with it.

Let's assume there are indeed two groups of people: the sissies and the hardasses. I think we should go for something that doesn't make the sissies run away and invites hardasses to join the server. I guess we all agree that you should do upon others as you expect others to do upon you, so I guess hardassess should be able to let other hardasses push the daisies in a permanent fashion, but not the sissies. And vice versa. The logical step (it has been mentioned before, I think) is to implement something akin the hardcore mode of Torchlight: better/more xp/stuff, but dead is dead.

The way I see it for me you'd get a question the first time you login after implementation. You get two options:

1. Do you want to play Amia in casual mode? This will give you a 10% XP and gold drop penalty, but you do not risk permanent death.

2. Do you want to play Amia in hardcore mode? If your character dies and is not raised before reset he/she is permanently dead.

The actual effects are negotionable, of course.

Mind that I personally like an incremental death 'pause' better, including raises taking longer.

Dev Disco wrote:

Level loss is a technical horror (RDD, monks, etc), so that kinda cleans up the list.

Edited 1st post to reflect this.

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Dev Disco wrote:

<snip>

The way I see it for me you'd get a question the first time you login after implementation. You get two options:

1. Do you want to play Amia in casual mode? This will give you a 10% XP and gold drop penalty, but you do not risk permanent death.

2. Do you want to play Amia in hardcore mode? If your character dies and is not raised before reset he/she is permanently dead.

The actual effects are negotionable, of course.

Mind that I personally like an incremental death 'pause' better, including raises taking longer.

My disagreement with this choice system is that we have the Soft-Core players mingled with the Hard-Core players now, think Diable 2, where you got choices like that, but then you played different servers...

My disagreement expanded: Your hard-core players are constantly harrassed feeling by the soft-core players because of favoritism feelings. Those playing soft-core may play the same PC for 2 years and get "everything" and boast and brag; but the moment they do it with a hard-core players, everyone's parade is rained on because the hard-core player feels like it's unfair (favoritism) and the soft-core player gets constantly harassed with comments like "oh yeah? toughtguy? why are you not perma-deathable then? (and vulgar language)"

Last edited by Gers on Mon, Dec 14 2009, 17:59 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Is it possible to add temporary negative levels to someone that A) aren't cured by resting, B). aren't cured by scroll-cast restoration/greater restorations, and C) will hold across resets on a timer?

Might be a good way to penalize people some for PvP/PvM losses. You have a chance % per death of getting 1-4 negative levels applied per death, scaled for your current level. They'll go away eventually, but unless you find a cleric or druid to cast some form of restoration on you, they'll stick around for a few days. And, multiple deaths during that time should be cumulative.

Edit: Oops, forgot to put PvM in there too.

2]

Dev Disco wrote:

For instance: raising takes a full day and some ritual, and every time you die another day is added. That would make death quite a bit more involved.

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4]

WonWon wrote:

DM Events - Permadeath a possibility. Up the rewards to being involved in these events.
PvM - No Permadeath. Much harsher death penalties (even when Raised)
PvP - No Permadeath. No harsher consequences.

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6]

Didi wrote:

...idea of having a limited amount of lives, which took time to recharge. Use up all your lives, and you have to wait until you get some more. Say you have 1 life added to your pot every week, with a maximum of 9 lives in total.

If you don't pay attention and lose all your 9 lives, then every death will take you a week to recover from.

DM events could deduct more than the base 1 death, if you wished.
Leaders of factions could either have less lives, or regenerate them more slowly.

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11]

Kezman wrote:

something like first time (maybe second, have free respawn and warn players, mostly new what death penalty is) you die you cant play char for a week, next time two weeks and then make it a month everytime after that.

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16]

QPR wrote:

- IC punishment; for example someone sneaking into Ultrinan and caught will be prisoned for x days, or level docked in x time to represent its imprisonement

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QPR wrote:

- Soft xp caps. This was one of the most succesfull implementations on The Three Kingdoms server in my oppinion; a system where only x amount of levels or xp could be gained in x days, depending on level. Faster progression at low levels, slower at High levels. This could be tuned that it would be impossible to reach epic levels in less than 6 months.

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21]

Torzeng wrote:

No Entry Way revivals

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Torzeng wrote:

XP Loss/Gold Loss on death; small deduction that cannot be avoided, but doesn't "Instant Respawn" so that being raised where you died still has some penalty you died at all. [[More penalty totaly if you are solo and have to take a respawn]]

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Jyro X wrote:

You are transported to a fugue/afterlife plane while your "corpse" is left in the material plane, to be found and either looted or resurrected by whosoever comes across it.

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a normal person wrote:

a limt to the number of respawns you get per reset

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Yurell wrote:

... time penalty, and also remove the gold cap lost from death (so a straight 10%). That way the penalties are grievous, but the character is not lost

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These summarises those i like.
And i would also like to Add Disco's latest Post, that you are given a "Choice" if you want to play a Risky character, or a Normal character. Naturally, the Risky Char should have some bonuses

Gers: That would only penalize you in terms of PvP, though. If you're assassinated, who cares that you get negative levels? You can still show up in that important meeting. But if you can't be raised for, say, 10 hours, you might miss your opportunity and your political opponent can use it to his advantage.

If we were to introduce a time limit to resurrection after PvP, we could even offer high-level Assassins the means to increase that time somewhat.

Expanding on number 8:

If there were more DMs available, I would suggest making XP DM granted only.

I would also suggest dropping the levels of many epic characters to levels suiting their position and achievements. My own character, a level 21 Paladin, would likely drop to about level 11 or 12. Epic is average, and nothing special, really.

The big problem here is the large amount of paperwork.

I wouldnt go that far, DM xp only is a big invitation to cries of favouritisme and lack of DM coverage on timezones.

What could be done is a hardcap; you need approval to pass level 10, 15 and 20, for instance. I do not like that much either however, as it too opens up for accusations and actual favouritisme.

I do however believe that a combination of slower xp, atleast level, gain through a soft cap system, coupeled with harsher penalties on death and capture would improve some of the problems with the "i dont loose anything if I die" mentality.

And i would also like to see prestige classes requests only and certain mulitclass options banned, but that is just my private ... typical it isnt an english word for it... Kjepphest!

The favouritism thing is a good point, actually, as is the time zone thing...

However, XP from grinding is a major part of the apparent problem.

Well, I don't really post often, but I have some thoughts to share on this subject that may be insightful.

I personally ran a perma-death server for several years, and this is what I found to be the general opinion of the players- All the characters are much more cherrished, and there is a general fear of losing them to some random act of violence. (IMHO this gavbe everyone much more incentive to RP and party up). On the flip side, there were many people who played for a month or two, and when they finally experienced that random act of violence, they left the server, to disapointed in the time investment they had put into the character and now lost... forever.

I also have played on a large number of servers, and for what ever reason I have returned to Amia time and time again. Here is what I found to work in my experience that is a very good compromise between , as Disco said, the sissies and the hardasses:

[*] All inverntory that is currently carried by the character is dropped on the ground. It is there to be looted by another player, or regained by the dead player. To compliment this there needs to be a "gold bank" and "item" bank that is usable by the players to store items.
[*] no oppertunity to return to the "spot of death" as ther is currently, rather you return to a designated spot... say a temple, or shrine and have to work your way backto the spot of death.
[*]If you are not raised by another player, then you can not respawn until a server reset... say all dead bodies showing up in the startnig area are auto raised.

While, there are some other good and workable ideas here (such as the 9 lives bank) I have found that one or some of the above in combination works very well at pleasing both the sissies and the hardasses.

That is my 2 cents.

Gers wrote:

Is it possible to add temporary negative levels to someone that A) aren't cured by resting, B). aren't cured by scroll-cast restoration/greater restorations, and C) will hold across resets on a timer?.

This could be done, but it would involve resetting them every rest/log out/scroll cast/reset. So it would involve intensive scripting.

msheeler wrote:

[*] All inverntory that is currently carried by the character is dropped on the ground. It is there to be looted by another player, or regained by the dead player. To compliment this there needs to be a "gold bank" and "item" bank that is usable by the players to store items.
[*] no oppertunity to return to the "spot of death" as ther is currently, rather you return to a designated spot... say a temple, or shrine and have to work your way backto the spot of death.
[*]If you are not raised by another player, then you can not respawn until a server reset... say all dead bodies showing up in the startnig area are auto raised.

I don't like the first since it's an open invitation for ninja-looting and griefing of a sort. Someone has something you want? PvP em!

But the other two are awesome suggestions.

Dev Disco wrote:

The way I see it for me you'd get a question the first time you login after implementation. You get two options:

1. Do you want to play Amia in casual mode? This will give you a 10% XP and gold drop penalty, but you do not risk permanent death.

2. Do you want to play Amia in hardcore mode? If your character dies and is not raised before reset he/she is permanently dead.

The actual effects are negotionable, of course.

Mind that I personally like an incremental death 'pause' better, including raises taking longer.

The two opinions, if something is going to be done to fix what is not broken, are not a bad idea but on the topic of pauses on the other hand i'm absolutely against. The people that can't sit around and play all day lose the two or three hours they are all ready limited to and people like myself that only play one guy at a time are more likely to go and kill the time on another server and then you risk some of those not coming back.

I left Arelith for Amia cause Amia had just about everything over Arelith and now people want to change exactly what I came to the server for.

what about arelith's hardore token thing?

you choose to give your character 10 lives until permadeath with some kind of bonus. Since we don't currently have the xp timer thing like Arelith, perhaps it could be a blanket +1 to skills/saving throws or something.

and a DC to revive beyond that.

I think there should be something minor'ish, though something that would still harm the character. Like.. Say for instance you die, you lose ability points for x amount of time depending on your classes taken. Also, they stack.

So.
Barbarian -1 strength and constitution
Bard -2 charisma
Cleric -2 wisdom
Druid -2 wisdom
Fighter -1 strength and dexterity
Monk -1 wisdom and dexterity
Paladin -1 strength and charisma
Ranger -1 dexterity and strength
Rogue -2 dexterity
Sorceror -2 charisma
Wizard -2 intelligence

PRESTIGE CLASSES
Even more loss.

Arcane archer -3 dexterity
Assassin -2 intelligence and -1 dexterity
Blackguard -2 strength and -1 wisdom
CoT -2 strength -1 charisma
DwD -2 constitution -1 strength
Harper Scout -2 dexterity -1 intell
Pale Master -3 intelligence
Purple Dragon Knight -1 strength dexterity and constitution (Don't know..)
RDD -3 strength
SD -3 dexterity
Shifter -3 wisdom
Weapon Master -2 strength -1 dexterity

None of these are reversible and last one RL day since death. Die again while penalties are in place, your health is halved. Die again and you cannot be raised/respawn until a day or two has passed.

Going to quote my response to the other thread in here:

Quote:

Harsher death penalties I can handle, certainly. I'd suggest something like "Resurrection Sickness", something that leaves the character actually physically sick and disabled for a while - be it an hour or until reset. Like, reduce all stats to 6 (Or, in the case of CON, as far down as it can go before killing the character) until it's gone.

Also, time waiting to be resurrected (in a matter of minutes, not hours or resets) is also a good idea in my opinion.

For those of us whose deaths aren't necessarily because of PvP, but crap luck in PvM, upping the "price" of a respawn /sucks/. Like Scim said, it's why I prefer it here, one of the reasons, anyway.

I'm pretty happy with things as they are, don't go mucking about with it...

Maybe we shouldn't change much of the death penalties for PvM but I think PvP death penalties should definitely be upped. The resurrection sickness youthanizer said goes pretty much hand in hand with my suggestion, and I think they would be fun to implement for PvP. PvM would be pretty suckish, because then you wouldn't do much epic hunting for the rest of the day.

Like the rules say you don't do PvP without RP, so wouldn't death sickness give -more- post-death RP? You can RP the weakness, and be taken care of by clerics or just material healers, so on and so forth.

Perhaps this sickness could be mostly or completely nulled if raised via an actual Cleric with Resurrection?

Last edited by Dwagin on Tue, Dec 15 2009, 0:18 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I disagree fundamentally at a 'Hardcore mode' and 'Softcoremode' switch. This will lead to elitism, schisms within the community. No way will I ever appreciate this, or stand for it fundamentally. I will go down fighting, kicking, screaming before I would condone this.

Uncapping gold drops on PVM death, I will never support, it is not because I have a wealthy PC, which I do. It is because I believe death should be equal based on ECL. The gold cap loss on death was instituted for a reason. My PC would not carry around Millions upon millions upon millions of gold. It does not follow logically She's not stupid. If you feel the current penalty of 40,000 gold is too small, then increase it to whatever number makes you happy. I suggest 100,000-125,000 at 30, for PvM.

I will never support monetary/item/XP loss/Long lasting effects as a result of PVP ever. This puts too much power in the hands of other players. What I would support as an automated 'Sickness' after pvp death applied on raise of any means. If I would reccomend anything to come from PVP raises it would be:

5 minute status penalty at most. Spell failure penalty, Max HP reduction, a circumstantial penalty of -5 to all rolls attack/saves, and -5 AC penalty, as well as a 1 minute snare/slow effect placed on the PC after raise.

I will not condone any death system that will ruin an entire night's play for anyone because of a PvM death. Hardcore players or not that is not going to be -fun-for the vast majority of the playerbase.

Entry raises MUST go away, it is blatant Metagaming in my mind. If you die, you are either raised by a PC before the reset, or you bite the respawn cost/death penalty.

Heavy penalties for Death should result from DM events only. As in, something that takes away an ability to play a character away. Something that takes away a player from viable Combat for a modest time is one thing, but to put or simply keep them unable to play at all is Punishing you OOCly for something that happened IC. IC actions should result in IC punishments. The punishment doesn't fit the crime.

Some penalty for a PVM death seems acceptable even if you're raised from a scroll/cleric. This seems most fair to me. A fraction of the full cost for xp/gold is more than acceptable, and I lean more towards making it hit the pocketbook a bit larger of that fraction. ((150gp*(ECL -5 squared) )) /2. Ergo. before ECL 6, raise from a scroll has a penalty of 0. At lvl 6 its 150gp. (Also keep in mind cost of scrolls.) At level 10 the penalty is 1,875 gold from being raised from a scroll. 20 its 16,875. At 30 its 46,875 gp. I'd also suggest a bare minimum of 2.5% level worth of xp loss from any PvM death.

Catering to people who already have left for anything seems unwise to me. I'd rather find the happy medium and carry that forward for those who remain.

Dwagin wrote:

Catering to people who already have left for anything seems unwise to me. I'd rather find the happy medium and carry that forward for those who remain.

This is very important.

Anyway, a week or so ago, on Mago's thread about fearing death, there were a lot of suggestions at possible death penalties. Some are being repeated here, others are new, but they all aimed for keeping the fun without OOC punishing the player.

I remembered suggesting that Raise Dead scrolls were removed and not readable by any character with UMD and no divine class; only druids and priests could read from those scrolls if they did not have the spell, in which case they could just cast the spell.

It would generate RP when trying to find and convince a priest/ess to call a friend back to life and would make cleric PCs more useful than for self-buffing. There would be plenty conflict RP here. You would have to do your best to convince whatever priest/ess you found as to why your friend should be called back to life.

The dead PC could drop some sort of token where it could be registered all information about his inventory and the corpse could disappear. This way, you could RP bringing the body to the Salandran temple and have it be carefully preserved by the Salandrans spells, for a symbolic fee that you could later charge from your dead friend (if brought back to life).

It would generate a lot of RP and maybe the dead PC could be stuck in the fugue with other possible dead PCs and they would not be left without RP, though they would be left without all their gear. The sooner that PC was called back to life, the sooner it would leave the fugue. The longer it would take, at least the player would not have to go do something else until such a day his PC was finally resurrected.

If you could not convince the priest, tough luck. You could always try finding another or think again before going out hunting or going taunting someone like our resident biggest baddest villain.

Probably, not feasible. But one can dream, right?

EDIT: Oh, right, once the PC was resurrected, his original gear would be back to his inventory.

EDIT 2: There the DMs would have it, the possible increment of fear of death and the PCs/Players starting valuing (sp? o.O) life more.

To Dwagin: Your character would not HAVE millions of gold, TO carry, "realistically". Therefore your argument is circular.

As such, I support removal of gold caps on death. It is much much more painful for a level 5 who has minimal gold, and has likely spent it all on crappy gear, to respawn, than it will likely *ever* be, gold cap or not, for an epic to respawn. Even if you lose hundreds of thousands of gold, a quick spin through an epic zone will recoup losses pretty well, and, other than auctions, which likely would go down in price, there is very minimal need for the levels of gold you are talking about, or for gold at all.

After all, epics tend to be pretty decently geared (with the exception of epic loot), while lowbies are in dire need almost constantly, of gear upgrades.

--------

Also, I personally support more hardcore death rules, but absolutely am against permadeath being forced. Absolutely.

The first change I'd make, would be the ooc raise from pvp. Remove it. It's more metagaming than anything else ever could be. If you don't take the "out" required in pvp, and you die, and the other pc doesn't wish to raise you, then hit respawn, or pray someone else wanders by, and rp with them. IC consequence for an IC action. PvP rules didn't get followed? There's rules for that. Screeny, report to a DM, and screeny your losses (gold/xp). I'm sure if the DM's rule that you were a victim of griefing, they could and would give you back your gold/xp losses, whilst ban hammering the offending rule breaker. This nonsense that the ooc raising is required because of griefing doesn't take into account that rules exist, and goes too far, in my opinion, in trying to make death easier and removing consequences.

I DO support some sort of resurrection sickness.

I've gotta go grocery shopping, I'll write out something to you when I get back Cori!

Cori wrote:

As such, I support removal of gold caps on death.

I think this could have a side effect of making GP even more worthless. See Diablo II.

Gers wrote:

Is it possible to add temporary negative levels...

It indeed is possible. I brought this possibility up a while back and brought it up again in the other thread. This was a fact of death in a server I used to play in. Temporary level drains that would stack if you should continue to die while it was in effect. How to do it? I haven't the slightest clue. But I know it's possible!

What happens if the negative levels end up equalling the character level?

When you say its a circular logic, I do not understand. If she does not have, she can not drop. Makes sense to me. I do not understand the inference of 'Not having in the first place' that you make. Can you explain?

Dwagin wrote:

Uncapping gold drops on PVM death, I will never support, it is not because I have a wealthy PC, which I do.

Before this is done, a bank system must be set up.
Failing to do so will force people to twink gold to "bank" PCs.

I suppose if there's a bank system you can tax people out of it, Disco. That way you get to choose - do you carry your worldly possessions with you, or do you put it where the tax man has free access?

Alternatives are silly. Whoop, I've got TEMPORARY negative levels. I'll just wait till they go, play another character. Still no fear really. So your out for a bit, I'm out for a bit when I die in the Skull Crags and get Raised at entry to, still little fear unless I'm addicted to playing Amia constantly.

Most alternatives of a temporary nature won't do anything scary, because it's temporary. If you make something permenant, then at least people will be scared of getting it, because it never goes away.

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Gers wrote:

Is it possible to add temporary negative levels...

It indeed is possible. I brought this possibility up a while back and brought it up again in the other thread. This was a fact of death in a server I used to play in. Temporary level drains that would stack if you should continue to die while it was in effect. How to do it? I haven't the slightest clue. But I know it's possible! :D

It would be a very good idea. But as Disco said, it mess up the character due to the LETO and/or scripts used to customize the RDD and PM PrCs to the server.

Yurell wrote:

What happens if the negative levels end up equalling the character level?

Your corpse should turn into a ghoul and begin biting people out of your control.

I like Wow's death system. How about a system where you can only come back to life in the spot you died. You can talk to people after you have died, but cannot get gold or xp and cannot sell stuff. That way you can only come back if you can handle the enemies that killed you. You could also put a no healing timer of a few seconds to stop people from sculling a heal pot straight away.

This also means in PVP where you die has a lot to do with it. So if a banite kills you in his temple, things could become very interesting when trying to get out. Of course they could keep your corpse there, but they also risk the spirit of that corpse being able to haunt their base and let people know all their secerts and the location of the base, and the corpse and all those good things.

WOW steals people souls and nothing of it should /ever/ be suggested to /any/ NWN server

BlackDahlya wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Gers wrote:

Is it possible to add temporary negative levels...

It indeed is possible. I brought this possibility up a while back and brought it up again in the other thread. This was a fact of death in a server I used to play in. Temporary level drains that would stack if you should continue to die while it was in effect. How to do it? I haven't the slightest clue. But I know it's possible!

It would be a very good idea. But as Disco said, it mess up the character due to the LETO and/or scripts used to customize the RDD and PM PrCs to the server.

No, I'm pretty sure what Disco was referring to was taking levels away. Level drain and taking levels away are two different things. Taking levels is what it is, where level draining is a spell effect.

Yeah, you don't have that problem with level drain, since you don't actually lose the level.

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Level_drain

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

BlackDahlya wrote:

o0GuNz_N_RoSeZ0o wrote:

Gers wrote:

Is it possible to add temporary negative levels...

It indeed is possible. I brought this possibility up a while back and brought it up again in the other thread. This was a fact of death in a server I used to play in. Temporary level drains that would stack if you should continue to die while it was in effect. How to do it? I haven't the slightest clue. But I know it's possible! :D

It would be a very good idea. But as Disco said, it mess up the character due to the LETO and/or scripts used to customize the RDD and PM PrCs to the server.

No, I'm pretty sure what Disco was referring to was taking levels away. Level drain and taking levels away are two different things. Taking levels is what it is, where level draining is a spell effect.

Oh, right. Sorry. I must have misread. Otherwise, what little times Auron got level drained he would have been forever bugged.

*slaps self*

Yes, level drain works wonders and is a great idea.

Scimiter wrote:

WOW steals people souls and nothing of it should /ever/ be suggested to /any/ NWN server

I'll take that as a joke, as dismissing a perfectly good suggestion because you hate where it's from is silly.

Selvec Darkon wrote:

Scimiter wrote:

WOW steals people souls and nothing of it should /ever/ be suggested to /any/ NWN server

I'll take that as a joke, as dismissing a perfectly good suggestion because you hate where it's from is silly.

I agree with that notion, Selvec. Although I don't think the WoW death system should be introduced because I don't like it. Having to run as a ghost halfway across the server is very tedious, and having your items damaged sounds like it would be ridiculously annoying. Especially since there are areas that you can be locked out of, so if you die there you are screwed.

Harsher Death penalties in PvP leads to more effecient powergaming in making perfect character builds, mostly in people taking Devistating Criticle.

Actually if the death penalty becomes so harsh that it'd be easier to create a new character altogether to deal with it, perma death for example, people would just roll up wizards and sorcs. They aren't item dependent and also happen to be the strongest classes with sick (I'd argue broken) spells. They don't even have to reach epic to be able to kill level 30s. Oh they could also solo Amia and still be safe.

I'm going to keep track of the numbers over the next couple of weeks.

We are catering to a minority over an issue that, until previous, was all but verbotim.

Make Permadeath an option, something the DM's may wield, but never, ever allow any type of PvP permadeath, because it will be abused, and even more people will leave.

You'll be left with the very small minority you're making this change for.

Regards,

Catering? We haven't done or changed anything, geez. The sky is not falling, and if it were the resident chicken would be telling us so. I am sure of it.

Ups wrong topic.

Quote:

The destruction of the Fountains of Purification (don't know if this has happened already).

We are waiting on a certain DM's stuff....

I think that part of the reason this is embraced by some, is becasue the fear of something bad happening to your beloved character makes them that much more cherrished.

I personally like heavier penalties with PvM because it just may stop people from doing "epic loot" runs. IMHO watching some one run from epic boss to epic boss looking for the 5% epic loot drop is pretty much the same as watching people to Ba'al runs in Diablo II looking for elite loot.

It is my belief that heavier PvM penalties would deter the lone wolf epic loot runs becasue of the fear of losing out on what you already have. ie> Would you epic loot run for the 5% chance of an epic loot drop when there was an equal chance you may loose the epic gear you already have? Heavy PvM penalties that concern "re-spawns" in particular would encourage people to party up, especially if there were no penalties for using raise dead scrolls like there currently is.

My personal favorite penalties are:
1. All carried gear dropped at the spot of death when playing PvM
2. Permanent level loss when you "respawn" rather then have a party member use ressurection or raise dead.

I am not entirely sure one can differentiate (game mechanics wise) the difference in a PvM and a PvP death. Which means that this would be open to abuse. Perhaps there would be a way to use some sort of subdual wand mode that when activated would allow a PvP death, but when not activated would only result in subdual damage or some such... ie Player A sees Player B. Player A activates "sudual wand" and set PvP mode on... if Player B does not also activate the "subdual wand" then Player A can not PvP kill player B. However if Player B also activates the "subdual wand" then they are giving concent to the PvP combat and the possible concequences. I think you may be able to do something where all PvP damage is set to subdual unless the player sets their mode to "real damage" mode in which case other players can damage them as well.

Anyways... I guess I am all for seeing people say "WOW, you are level 30? That's like WAY cool. It must have been hard to get there!" rather than... "Yeah this is my Epic Mage. I got tired of playing my epic Shadow Dancer since he has all his epic loot already, and my other buddy is not on so I dont want to play my epic RDD because they hang out togeather. You know tomorrow I think I'll start working on an epic monk, I can prolly have that done in a coulpe weeks."

I guess this means I've sunk 4 cents into this topic now

.

Loot dropping doesn't function well on a server that wipes the slate clean every 4 hours, and has occasional crashes, I'm afraid.

msheeler wrote:

1. All carried gear dropped at the spot of death when playing PvM.

Oh I love this one.
I'll just bigby victim X then release a dominated coven leader to maul his/her helpless body. Then I get everything he/she owns. Better than loot farming for a measly 5% chance any day :lol:

Alternatives To Forced Perma Death (Compiled Quotes!)

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