the only perma death system ive seen actually working..is request systems...you have a big personal grudge and i mean HUGE..you can file a request to permakill another char, then you get, i think it was a month to kill him 10 times...and he gets the same wish granted so to speak and is informed that he is under the threat of permakill from another char...and he can kill him 10 times in a month and the permakill the requesting persons...

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

Far harsher death penalties. Far, far harsher. Harder to ressurect as well. Not gonna go into what these should be as thats not the point of the topic.

Permadeath - maybe keep it reserved for special occassions with a DM present.

My sentiments exactly.

If it's forced, it should not be permanent. If permanent, it should not be forced... you know, like what we already have.

I'd like to add the whole thing of "loosing players to hardcore servers" is rather a futile war to fight. We "loose" as many as to them as we gain from them, actually.

I played Arileth shortly before coming to Amia. Wasn't my cup of tea, so to speak. Came to Amia and said "Hey, here's a balance that works for me." I've the feeling that this is the story of some fellow players as well. Besides, we have a niche. We have a good stock of playerbase who've invested hours into their characters, etc etc here. Let's not go making the same mistake that was made with 4th Edition.

The only time I would be for Permadeath is if a player willingly kills their PC, I've seen far too many people 'Killing' thier PC only for them to be raised again a few weeks later... other than that... I vote a very stern NO against Permadeath.

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Metalien Sikth Wiki Page: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Metalien_Sikth

I took no offence, and offer you none, but I think QED is far too strong a statement to make in this instance.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

That seems like legalized greifing to me.

You mean if I don't like someone, IC or OoC, I can file a request to try to kill them as many times as I can over a given time, and if i succeed, they go away forever?

That kinda... speaks for itself.

I would have to agree with this.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Nobody is asking you to sign a blank cheque. We are discussing the idea that you are not the one who gets to control the fate of your character. I think that should be the number one premiss in RP.

Your strawman arguments miss the point. There's no reason permadeath has to be introduced in a way that means the accidental, unprovoked and unforseeable destruction of your character by (un)lucky dice. You also make exaggerations about churning out new characters, which does nothing to promote your case.

The sentiment that your character should live on (more or less safely) for as long as you want, because you invested countless hours into him or her, is exactly what I object to. It's harmful to a dynamic setting. You're not supposed to labour for hours developing a character so that you can enjoy a virtual life of safety and control. You're supposed to enjoy every minute of the journey, including the end. I suppose it is a matter of taste, but that's what this is about: imposing one's taste over the other, and trying to find an option that pleases the most.



This is the kind of mistake I was referring to, earlier. By letting some people suffer harsh consequences if they want to, and giving others the option not to, you don't change a thing. It's an implicit choice in favor of the latter group: if consequences aren't enforced, if suspense, fear and danger don't hold everyone in their clutches, we will have won nothing as regards shaping server culture.

Having control over the fate of your character undermines the point of RP.

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I definitely agree with DI on that one. "I don't like you, so I'm going to hunt down your character and kill him, I don't care how long it takes or how man times I have to try,but you're going to be killed forever."

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

How exactly had the DMs foreseen permadeath to be implemented, if it were to be?

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

Problem with taking levels upon death is RDD and PM's.

Taking levels from them screws things up. Big time.

And I personally am Against forced Permadeath, especially since there is no way to subdue someone in pvp. So you want to take someone prisoner? Only thing you can do is beat them down to an inch of their life, and they will still keep fighting (Everything about 1 hp means I am ready to go!).

Only if they get to 0 and less Hp can you actually capture them. IF you get them that low or right to these numbers.

Dropping items on death and so using a bank? Not possible since the current bank hand outs scriptures which you can trade in for the items again. So they will be dropped too on death.


Also, if there will be PermaDeath I am quite sure I never ever would've started playing a rogue or any other melee class. Why? Because mages can sit safely behind their summons and have a quick escape button if things go wrong.

Melee's not so much.
In the end you'd have a few high level mages and several low level fighters, if any at all.
I think I also said it before, but how do the DM's decide if a death was justified? So you get killed by an asshat and your character for which you worked hard for months is gone forever.
How can you prove that you just don't want to avoid death and get a second chance?
The answer: You can't.

And that would give griefers tremendous power.
Remember that guy who hacked the game and insta killed other PC's in Cordor, a non pvp zone, and Wiltun?
Yeah, now imagine that happened to your character.
I am quite sure that if that would've happened to mine that I'd have screamed out in anger, shed tears, and never ever touched Amia ever again.

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"Most assume that all the followers of Lathander are great morning people. They're very wrong."
"I think we are the only group where AD&D stands for Attention Deficit Disorder."

We haven't planned anything. We didn't discuss it in any detail before bringing it up here. An attempt to design anything specific will be futile, if the majority of the playerbase is of the opinion that they should be in control of their characters.

It's a matter of attitude and principle, IMO. Details are easy to work out, if there is a consensus that we give up our complete control of our characters' fate. It does not even have to be a question of permadeath: the sentiment of control is much more determinal to Amia than the lack or presence of permadeath, specifically.

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ONLY IC REASONING...did you read my post at all..it was a request if you have SERIÙS grudges against that char, a request is dealth with and judged by dm's not you, your request will be denied if it isnt solid

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

I have to say that this is probably the worst idea I've ever seen a DM post or discuss, sorry Iron, nothing personal, but permadeath is a terrible idea.

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Metalien Sikth Wiki Page: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Metalien_Sikth

Well, I am opposed to forced permadeath, mostly because, in my experience, it doesent really solve anything.

Amia has been succesfull because it has catered to the large mass of "casual" players who fall in between "hardcore RP'ers" and "hack n slash" players, due to a rather "liberal" set of rules when it coes to gaining xp, multiclass combinations, etc. Now, if it is teh case that the mass of casual players is starting to dwindle because the game is old, it would perhaps be fruitfull to xcater more towards the hardcore segment of the player base. I do however not think forced permadeath is the way to go, because of several reasons:

- Some may like it, but people who wish to play thier characters for an extended period of time will be discouraged from playing because of the risk
- Those who loose their chars due to reasons they feel are unfair ro random will loose interest because its just a "meh" way to go.
- Conflict RP will be significantly less attractive. You risk ending up with most people chatting in the No PVP zone of the citys quare.
- It may be counterproductive because people will take less risks, and be much less inclined to do "adventerous" things with thier chars, because they are afraid of loosing them on an OOC level
- And finaly, i can see alot of frustration and drama coming from this.

Now, I agree that there are changes that could be made to Amia to suit the more hardcore segment, and I now take the oppertunity to propose them:

- Stricter multiclassing rules. For example Pal/sorc could be banned. or one could demand that yu must have minimum 5 levels of each class before a certain level, or divide between dual-classing and multiclassing

- Harsher death penalties in PvM.

- Less aviability of potions, items etc that makes things easier. This will strenghten mages, true, so impose costs on spell casting for example.

- IC punishment; for example someone sneaking into Ultrinan and caught will be prisoned for x days, or level docked in x time to represent its imprisonement

- Soft xp caps. This was one of the most succesfull implementations on The Three Kingdoms server in my oppinion; a system where only x amount of levels or xp could be gained in x days, depending on level. Faster progression at low levels, slower at High levels. This could be tuned that it would be impossible to reach epic levels in less than 6 months.

- Make prestige classes request only; you would need DM approval after a request to take them. Mandatory mentoring could also be included, and perhaps extended to certain multiclass examples

- And as many others will say: more DM involvement in events, politics etc, though i can understand that the DM Team has other things to do.

_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

Do you have a better solution to address the stagnation, low quality of RP and the infection that is a want of control, though?

I am not at all convinced permadeath is a good idea. It may very well result to nothing good. But the problem is real. We have to try something new, if we are to reach new heights.

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No, it is exactly what you are asking. The question is whether permadeath would be acceptable, and you gave a number of examples of in the middle of the post suggesting ways it could be achieved, but how is that different to signing the blank cheque after being told that it may cost between x and y? z is stil an option they can just write on. If I choose permadeath, where is the guarantee that the one chosen is one I'd prefer over non-permadeath? There is none. I can imagine that there would be specific ways of doing permadeath that I may find attractive, but if I vote 'yes' to permadeath in general, how do I know I'll get one of those and not something that I disagree with strongly?
Much like the Republican movement here, many people want a Republic, but they all disagree about what form it should take - to many, the Monarchy and Commonwealth is much more preferable to some of the options presented. An example is that I'm pro-Republic, but if it would mean we ended up with an American-style Republic, I'd vote no any day.



How is that a mistake? With forced level loss the consequences are there. The consequences are enforced, just not in a way that involves the permanent removal of the character ... or is that the only consequence that matters? What are you trying to say with this last paragraph? That level loss is no punishment? Everyone would be held equally to that, just as they would with permadeath, the only difference is that one isn't forced to create a new character at the end. The sense of suspense and fear is still there, because you are still losing something major, but not the acrid taste of losing everything you have worked so hard to achieve.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I don't think I'm in favor of perma-death, at least not yet. I am in favor of harsher penalties for death, both pvm and pvp. One thing I'm curious about though is this argument against perma-death being bandied about based on the hours of rp and development one devotes to a character. Does death automatically negate the rp that came before? Was Shakespeare's life for nought after he died?

Now, as for my personal view on death in Amia. I think the server would be better served with the elimination of raise scrolls. And of course, that would add some more importance to clerics, but I don't think that is anything but a positive side effect.

yes it is a real problem, seconded big time.

_________________
-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

Oh, another suggestion; Prestige classes could be made requestable only. ie. you would need DM approval for taking a prestige class, and perhaps even to multiclass. Pre.approved excemptions could ofcourse be amde.

_________________
"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

No and I don't believe there is to be honest mate, but permanently killing a PC that someone has put months (if not years) of work into is just a terrible idea.

Perhaps a system like I've seen on other servers where a PC's stats or levels are dropped on a temporary basis when they die?
I feel that implimenting this would turn more players away from Amia than it would bring into it, people would get tired of leveling up a PC and having to constantly start again, people would grow frustrated at their super well built, high end epic PC suddenly becoming trash because of a Griefer, PvP or PvE death... I know I for one would never, ever play Amia again should this be brought into effect.

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Metalien Sikth Wiki Page: http://amiawiki.shatuga.com/index.php/Metalien_Sikth

Yes, but change for the sake of change could do just as much damage as leaving it the way it is, or accepting an alternate albeit less drastic idea.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I'll take my bic file and leave too.

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Prescia the Pristine Voice

I'd like to point out, that the player controls the character. If you fo not want to see a permanent death then you are welcome to walk away, showing those aspects of respect and fear that this is trying to establish.

If you believe your character would stand up and defy, and become a martyr for their cause your welcome to roleplay that and suffer the consequences.

Be the character good or evil, your in control you can walk away you can not involve yourself in the roleplay that will risk your form of entertainment.

Currently amia consists of a large portion of players playing a happy family, living a game life as if it is there own, and every so often deciding to step forward into a wider picture and become defiant.


I dont see a perma death system changing the family roleplay, what I do see it changing is the family that consists of retired adventuers, who grow bored and decide that because the banites are taking hold again there going to rally up and take on the hordes knowing full well there is no risk to that family rp. Showing no fear or respect to the months of hard work these players have done to achieve this status.

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Ray's song! Thanks to Amarice, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ujzp9ffPwPM

How many years did Shakespeare live? And nice of you to chose a famous person. How about James Taylor, how many of you have heard of him? Born sometime in the 1700s, he lived a quiet life and died. He was forgotten until my Opa found him whilst doing genealogy (he was doing my pedigree at the time). How about the other ~60 billion people that have ever lived? There lives are gone, and most of them are forgotten. Sure, they had their impacts, and if it weren't for them the world wouldn't be as it is today ... but I doubt many of them could see the impact they had, even were they alive today.

_________________
2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I think what is happening is that a lot of characters lack ambition. A lot of characters are created and made on Amia simply to 'get to level 30' or 'interact'. Romances spring up... and then the character does nothing. Factions are join, a few PvP encounters happen... and then the character does nothing.

What Eary has recently done In-Character has given rise to some of the most intense, rewarding, fun roleplay I've experienced in a long time. Why? Because:

1. There were risks involved. Still are.
2. The dynamic aspect: His actions had an effect on other players and the world around him.
3. There is risk that either Eary's character or others could suffer longterm, even permanent, repercussions to this - and not just 'death', but damage in the social / political corners as well.

That's what makes roleplay fun. That's what makes something 'real'. That's what makes a game immersive... makes roleplay valuable and meaningful and worth the time. Risks and the ability to cause something to happen.

I like permadeath, but under the stipulations I've already listed. I also, personally, like the idea of strict OOC banter rules. I've had a lot of RP screwed up due to people being distracted by party chat.

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Espiel Callahan

Like it or not, that's what we're dealing with Iron. And I'm not saying this view is wrong.

But most people, doubting myself as well I'll admit, aren't "big" enough to accept roleplay in that manner. There is a level of work that goes into creating a character that just warrents some say in the major things that happens to them in their story. You get to decide where they're born, who they met, where they lived, what they beleived and learned up to the point where you put them in Amia. It's easy, and actually encouraged to "let go" on some of the smaller things that happen to the character after that, and even some of the larger things like fighting and Falling... but Permadeath as in where-you-story-must-end is just too huge of an aspect to be left completely out of the player's hands.

You can't hope to wish people to put great thought into their characters, possibly hours, research, and put themselves in their character's shoes, but be willing at any moment to accept that that all goes away. In an unforseen way. Unforseen to them, at least. Most people just aren't able to be that objective. If people put hours of thought into a character, they expect hours of enjoyment back from it. It's human nature and it's equivalent exchange.

Indeed


I think you cut quite a few logical corners here. It starts that I doubt we have a uniform idea of what undesirable, and all the other premises you make are no premises at all but conclusions of questions that haven't been asked yet.

I see the top quote as my ultimate goal when I do stuff for Amia, and it's kinda like keeping multiple balls up in the air. On the one hand you don't want to be too conservative because progress is needed. On the other hand you don't want to be too progressive because people have expectations that need to be met. However, there's some rule of the thumb:

* if a change may cost you players: be as conservative as possible
* if a change won't cost you players: be as liberal as possible

I guess my take with permadeath is clear. I highly doubt it adds to the ultimate goal (it's certainly not something I'd advertise with), and the chance on issues is .. well, it's not really a chance at all, it will cause issues. So, be as conservative as possible, ie: don't do it.

I think we do have a problem with the second rule of the thumb, though. This community is very good at becoming upset about changes that don't even hurt them. I remember the fuss about the player who became a Wiltun knight. The rental housing that may not have been equally available. The HAK discussions, in a way. In all these cases people retreat in dogmatic trenches and just go "Nyet", whatever the arguments and ignoring the fact that there's little need to do so. That sort of sentiment actually kills any progress, and in the end a server.

So, I'd not simply brush away arguments because they seem reactionary. Conservatism isn't bad when rash suggestions are made. It's a very wise position to take. You can argue left, you can argue right, but in the end this plan is a gamble. You don't have a clue what the results will be, and I'd rather have a better explanation of how it will aid the ultimate goal than currently given. This is just piling assumption on opinion.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

You're going to find this everywhere that there are people who trade RL for Virtual Reality. There is an entire developing psychology for "internet personalities".

My main thought to how you dicussed this is: By who's right are you my Parent, Peronsal Councilor, or to decide what is Best For Me when you only know me as online?

Yes there are things unhealthy about attachments to PC's. But it's not all the apples in the basket that are bad. I'm sternly offended that you would argue that my character should die because you decided I have a problem that you have no true grounds on which to base it. You don't have:
1) Real Life experience with my behaviors in off-line social settings.
2) [Unless you're going to mail me a certificate I can check with the government] You don't have the expertize to make a medical proffessional choice about my mental health.
3) In-depth 1-on-1 discussions with me to understand my personality, viewpoints, or comprehension of my own self.

So at this point I will admit I am extremely attached to my PC Weston Carter as I have devoted over a RL year to his growth and developement. I will also admit that at times I feel like I am living vicariously through him. What you never see though is my participation efforts with a dance club, rock-climbing, fraternity life (greek life), and more [which I have dropped RP to make sure I spend time with friends even to play ping-pong for 2 hours and talk about whatever the hell comes to mind].

I enjoy Amia's current system because I am allowed to relax with a semi-alternate life that I cannot physically have. I don't get to wield magic, travel across deserts and forests by foot on a regular basis, or find myself deciding if I'd rather try cooked mouse of fried seagull. I get to relax in an imaginary creation and portray fantasy like I was reading it from a book; but here I'm the author in some ways too.

People can get just as overly attached to TV-characters, Band-Members they've never met or will see in concert, Story-Tale Personas, and so on. Otherwise "Fan Clubs" wouldn't exist. It's arguably human nature to find something to attach ourselves too even though it is "illogical".



The grind for me is not extremely boring. It's plenty of effort because I'm not a pro-hunter that solo's everything. I enjoy trying other zones and do not mind going at slower XP paces to hunt someplace more astetically pleasing or less competitive to have permission to run through. Sometimes it's a little less interesting, but nothing outside of that natural up-and-down to life.

People who find "the grind" extremely boring and unrewarding have caused that for themselves. I know I found the last levels to take a much longer time and it was hard. But I found a huge sense of reward about making it and persisting over time and not letting myself give up.

Lack of acomplishment in general:

It's been discussed time and time and time again. We have to Roleplay to feel those senses and acknowlegde what the PC's managed as something heroic as a feat.

If you're not feeling that sense of accomplishment, it's probably because you're not RPing that sense yourself or trying to help show it to others that your PC views it as a sense of accomplishment for others too.

Summon a dragon? Weston will jump most of the time. How do you act about it? When somebody ran around excited that they could finally summon a dragon via EDK; Weston clapped and congradulated them. If you run around with a dragon chasing your arse like it's a daily thing; then you're not showing me you feel that sense of accomplishment with yourself (IC and even OOC) and I'll react the same.

You: "I finally got the dragon!"
Me: "Well done!"

OR

You: "Yup. It's a dragon."
Me: "Okay."

It's not easy. But it's a 2-way thing. If you're doing "I finally got the dragon!" and the other people are blowing you off about it; that is their fault and their shame. And this just comes back to people having to themselves change.

So if you solo beholders, ignore death penalties or not, and just go "yeah, I can do it," then I don't have the clue to go "WOW" *Makes a :O!! face*

With death penalties, I'm not going to be any more impressed if you're not going to show me ques that it's meant to be a sense of accomplishment with your own character.



Hence why faction zones have been demolished, relocated, and rebuilt huh? No meaning? I see meaning to that when the lay of the land is altered by who's got what territory.

That through DM assitance when things are demonlished you have to both win fights, use the right in-game available sources, and toss dice? Or vice-versa, to rebuild or build places up now you have to bring in more than gold but hire PC's and haul in resources with the new job system? I think it shows meaning that we have to provide really strong effort to see the map changed.

It looks like Cyrists group is having to lie low right now, if there are many left. I remember feeling like they were the #1 trouble a year ago.

Eternal Order? From my perspective that faction had many players make a personal choice to Perma' their PC's with nobody telling them they had to. And since then the faction has clearly shown to be slowled down by that.

The Dawnguard literally dissolved just a while after I started playing Weston Carter. In the last 2 moths they've had a leader come in and re-install the faction.

Where are the Defenders? I hear about those PC's like anchient stories. Another faction that's waned over time that clearly once had glory.

The Banites are making a huge push to get a lot of attention. And they are definitely getting a lot of attention. And they are reaping the conflict for that attention that they can jsut short of be intantly hostiled and assaulted.

There is plenty of meaning to those who are showing the commitment.



I do not feel any lack of suspense when I'm working with a DM event. Sure, I know my PC might not be able to die. But that doesn't stop that he can be imprisoned for a while [although people say don't to that to them, sometimes I think that should be allowed forced like how a day ban from a town is 1 reset].

Ressurection of Johnathin Leohnard? Cripes, I felt strongly that if that went worse or entirely failed that my Weston Carter would find a city very much unhappy with him, a failure in the temple, dissapointment from other PC's, a very strong sense that I put a lot on the line- I was Role Playing for a lot to be on the line.

When I'm RPing with others without DM's I can get a nice feeling for supsense. I've had discussions that turn hotile and you know that any moment you're risking a PvP encounter (and I prefer strongly to avoid those, mind you, so this is different than somebody who loves to PvP). Or the times with crossing hunting zones are realizing that you're catching up to another party. That might mean you'll come across allies to team with; or maybe a few elves will cross the path of a few drow. Or just factional, Weston Carter fled many encounters on sighting of a known cyrist because he'd been targeted by them before.

If there is a lack of suspense being felt; I accuse the player of having lost their "grip to IC realism" and "falling back to the OOC". I work very hard to remember that Weston Carter is living a real life; in his IC world (which is our fantasy). I owe him living without my OOC knowledge. That is where I get a feeling of suspense- by staying true to the thought that, for my character, interactions "are real to him".



One of the big reasons I play on Amia is because it's more relaxed and simple. That there is pentalties for death, but I cannot be forced to die.

I Have Never Enjoyed Any Games That Force Death.

I may not be a man of the majority; but I know if Weston Carter was killed off because some (vulgar-name-calling) decided to PvP grief me... Well... I would leave one of those undesirable angry letters on the forums and quit for good because DM's were not providing a fun-friendly environment but a "world where the best builder and biggest jerk wins because they get to pick who plays".

That's being honest, to which some people might think I'm now a violent person or somesuch; I'll go back to my first points:



... Weston Carter knows 8 generations of a single PC family from mother-to-daughter repeated over and over.

A lot of PC's are "short lived" either by fast run plots and deaths or being made and not being stuck with (for any reason).

Plus, a forced Perma-death means I'll probably try to have a 4-year developed character by never actually doing anything that risks them dying. Probably a nice level 3 town recluse that stays where they cannot be PvP'ed or DM killed by dodging events entirely.



I think your own argument here clearly states why NOT to force-permadeath. I stronly believe we'll have countless issues with griefing.

This is, as you already argued it, an extreme drawback.

And 100% not fun for me. Which is why I don't play servers with it.



It's not too late to keep making changes, we make changes all the time.

This change is too extreme in itself however.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;
My Final Verdict:

Forced Perma Death? Never. This is against one of the root designs about Amia's environment that makes it open to a larger playerbase and fun for those who want to make honest commitment to good roleplaying while just looking to relax.

[[Those who want to make honest commitment -- we do have some bad apples who don't make honest commitment.]]

You're hurting a larger percentage of the player-base than you're solving any problem.

However.

I am willing to be pro-increase death penalty.
Examples might be:
1) No Entry Way revivals
2) XP Loss/Gold Loss on death- "Instant Respawn" to the fugue plane
3) XP Loss/Gold Loss on death; small deduction that cannot be avoided, but doesn't "Instant Respawn" so that being raised where you died still has some penalty you died at all. [[More penalty totaly if you are solo and have to take a respawn]]
4) "Instant Respawn" if showing up dead in entry way ((works same as not entry way revivals))
5) "Mark of Dying" = collect x-value (1 gained per death) and you are de-leveled 1 or 2 level(s).

Increasing the Pentalty for Death: Good Potential to resolve the majority of the problems and "remove" the "worst apples" (unlikely we can ever be rid off all bad apples).

Increasing the Penalty to Forced-PermaDeath: Kills the Intergrity and Basis of Amia's design. Ruins one of the leading factors to "why Amia is fun".

_________________
Weston Carter ~Salandran~ : Retired
Carters Leave Amia

[/quote]

How many years did Shakespeare live? And nice of you to chose a famous person. How about James Taylor, how many of you have heard of him? Born sometime in the 1700s, he lived a quiet life and died. He was forgotten until my Opa found him whilst doing genealogy (he was doing my pedigree at the time). How about the other ~60 billion people that have ever lived? There lives are gone, and most of them are forgotten. Sure, they had their impacts, and if it weren't for them the world wouldn't be as it is today ... but I doubt many of them could see the impact they had, even were they alive today.[/quote]


I'm failing to see your point? Is your point that some people will be less famous than others? What exactly does that change?





P.S. I nominate my self for least capable forum user, as evidenced by my ability to f up a quote.

I still love Three Kingdoms for their soft cap on XP. It was the best... evuh.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

ICly:
Amia is in a realm where magic and Gods exists and death very rarely has to be permanent. Under the spell True Resurrection a cleric can raise someone 10 IG/years per level on a hand full of diamonds and a solid thought of that person. My guy Daniel spent a IG year in death and as such is paranoid and pointedly is avoiding going back there by making sure that his friends have a stack of diamonds each and know a really good cleric. A system put in place would void the fact that the realm we play in death is /not/ a solid fact.

OOCly:
I'll openly make the statement that I'm selfish. I'm here to play for me and some for the friends here. To play out the life of one or two guys and not be making a new guy every three months cause some system tells me to. If I wanted that I'd go back to PnP. I say no to this question and suggest even the penalties for death be left alone cause as pointed out they are not the real issue here and enforcing a system on something that is not the problem is only going to compound it

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Guys I play:
Finng Meras
Joshua Steel
Daniel Makie
Celub Elubmiire
Tristan
Len'ionel

That's a rather different discussion, though.

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Say 'no' to JSBF!

You brought up an example where after death someone's name continue on. I just brought up about sixty billion examples where they didn't. For some, their RP will continue after their character dies, but for others, the RP will end, all the hours they put into their character lost.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

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Naw, it was a suggestion as one of many alternatives to forced permadeath to improve the "feel" of progress and development

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

How about lots of DCs for voluntary permadeath instead of forcing it? i.e. the result of some rp (like a spy being captured).

Though, this would be a rather DM time intensive idea and I very much doubt there's that much spare time floating about.
I'm also probably fishing for DCs here, considering Fey is IC a rather bloated corpse floating somewhere in the Underdark after meeting a sticky end :p and I haven't thought of a good enough story for her resurrection yet.

Anyway, back to the topic. I'm not fully opposed to permadeath as it would add a much larger element of fear and having to plan where's out of bounds for you character for fear of death. However, given that I'm prone to building rather poorly constructed characters with weak attacks, low saves and badly thought out feats (sometimes for fun, though often through ignorance) rather than a powerbuild...I'd find the idea of stepping outside of Cordor a near no-go. My current character is so weak by themselves that they press a lot of juice to level up. Yes, I sometimes get to be part of a great party....but if a sweeping permadeath came in he wouldn't step outside an orchard. When things go wrong (doublespawn, a key party member has some bad rolls) he tends to die pretty fast.
He's a fun character to play, and to hunt with. Maybe I should just stick to populated areas and not hunt if I'm worried about dieing because of a bad build. But should I be penalised because NWN hates crossbows, but I think a hin with a penchant for massive crossbows is an amusing, fun build?

If permadeath comes in though I won't winge, I'd just have to corner the juice business and hire people to kill others who would steal my apples .

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Feyeira Zilsha'rel
Cheny Lightfoot

from what ive seen on this topic so far, seems alot of people dont want perma death (im still on fence) which i thought would be the general opinion but it does seem alot of people are open to harsher death penalties.

I do think disco has point in that if perma-death is gonna be forced, then is the cost worth having it. Hell i do think something needs to be done badly concerning peoples reaction to death. i'd happily accept no raise-scrolls and heavier death penalties as a simple reaction.

I think it is horribly unfriendly towards newer players and/or players that really just aren't that good at grinding/building a character - such as myself. I can tell you right now I have a hard time leveling up simply because I've been out of the game for soooo long. It would be rather annoying in all honesty.

I think a good system would be this:

Perma-death only applies to-
Level 25+ characters involved in the following:
Boss fights, RP-sanctioned PVP, and/or solo'g (cuz who's going to rez you if you're by yourself? your body is left there to rot)

And what I've seen a lot of successful RP servers do with perma-death is this: You are transported to a fugue/afterlife plane while your "corpse" is left in the material plane, to be found and either looted or resurrected by whosoever comes across it.

I think this would be a fair compromise. It would encourage team-play, good RP, and above all else: a real sense of danger and suspense.

The reason I suggest the 25+ requirement is because in all honesty, it's quite easy to die at the much lower levels, especially as a new player who doesn't know the server and/or the areas. How horrible would it be to be a new player spending almost 2 weeks just trying to get to level 10-12 (I've done it) and have some "evil baddy" -trick- you into going into a death trap and perma-dying? I know I personally wouldn't enjoy it considering people have given me misinformation ICly and OOCly on this server before and it's quite annoying enough to waste my time without having to permanently say goodbye to my character as well. I don't believe in a fully permanent death. I like the corpse system the best. It's what we used to have on our old PW Story realm and we weren't even very strict on RP. And it seemed to appeal to players quite well.

A few rules should apply to looting a player's corpse though:
Only one of the player's EQUIPPED items can be looted
And it can ONLY be looted if a sufficient amount of time has passed since death (1-2 hours I'd say) - IC: The character still clings to life at least enough to defend his/her personal items and/or the spirits of the fugue plane are keeping protections over the recently deceased. idk how you'd like to RP it.

But yes, the idea of perma-death is very noob-unfriendly. And how else are you going to foster a dwindling population other than looking out for your new players? Retaining players is pretty easy if the RP quality is good enough. Recruiting and keeping NEW players is a whole different ball game.

That's just my $0.02.

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Perma-death might be trendy now, but trends change. I don't think you guys want a new ruleset every six months.

I'll give you a compromise suggestion. Four days.

Four days being equivalent to the average amount of in-game time it will take for your characters remains to be located, exhumed if need be, and taken to a priest. Or a Goa'uld sarcophagus. Either way you're going to be a bit crankier when you come to.

Obviously this will be subject to appeals in the event of grief-killing. It also won't stop you from logging on as different characters. But four days of being unable to return to the mortal coil gives some meaning to death. It gives some meaning to life, too.

It may be a little simplistic. It may still present you with some of the problems of the current system. But I'm thinking of whomever has to realise this whole new system, and simpler is probably going to work a whole lot better for them than complicated.

IMO players being able to force perma death is not a good idea. i see that as a DM only power and only when the player agrees or there is a -very good- reason. my reasoning being that i have sem many power or PvP biult character who's RP have been PvP. also it gives even more power to high level characters. i would also point out it woould be a pain in the arse for DMs seeing as they would get countless complants and would be ask every time somone trys to do this to supervise.

now i do think that the death and injury system should be fixed. i think that resing should be fixed so that either the resd character losses a level or XP. also i think it would be a good idea to change the casting time on the spells raise dead and resurection to be longer. also i think the respawn system should be changed as well, i think it that there should be a limt to the number of respawns you get per reset and i think you should loss a level for respawning. i think that the fact that missing a limb or being crippled shouldn't be fixed by a visit to the salandrans (although i will admit i have gone to them to get my characters hand back).

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Eldon Strongarm, Strongheart hin

I really cant believe some of what I am readng here.

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Siggy by Maryn

I do not have a practical suggestion for handling permadeath smoothly; I just believe it should be acceptable in principle. I think there have been a few good ideas worth developing. Each of them has some aspect that I might include:







From Disco, I would take the increasing time it takes to be resurrected, and apply it to PvP. From the female Didi, I would take the idea of a limited number of lives, and apply it to both PvM and PvP: only PvP deaths inflict a delay to resurrection, but both PvM and PvP deaths eat your lives and may ultimately result in temporary downtime - until you regenerate your lives. Those who've died more in PvM would face greater risk in PvP, too, and repeated PvM deaths alone could send you in the Fugue.

And finally, I would take into account whether you're raised by Raise scroll, Resurrection scroll, or the spells as cast by a cleric. The exact maths would be done last, but I imagine getting raised by a scroll takes longer or eats more lives than getting a clerical Resurrection.

Any ideas to take this further?

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Level loss and time penalty, and also remove the gold cap lost from death (so a straight 10%). That way the penalties are grievous, but the character is not lost.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I wouldn't necessarily go for level loss. Mostly because PMs and RDDs are problematic. Gold cap removal, absolutely.

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Could there not be a script made on death to check that the stats changed properly, and if it didn't boot them to auto do it (like gaining one level of monk or SD)? I would much prefer that to Perma, and the gold I've wanted for ages.

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

Then let us store money in a bank.

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Darthion Illys

Join the Banites!

I do believe that would be a reasonable expectation too (something else that I've asked for before).

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2009's Second Most Overall Contributing Player

يمكنني استخدام مترجم جوجل

I vote YES because we 'are' loosing players, We 'are' slowly and gradually loosing players.
We 'are' slowly fading.

I have an opinion in this - "prehaps" give players the ability to -Choose if they want to play a PermaChar, or Not. Give "Benefits" To those who wants to play a Char that might permadie.
AWARD The risktakers, and prehaps we can turn the tide to our favour.

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

I agree with Ron here, for the most part. We have discussed the possibility of permadeath intermittently over the past couple of years, always concluding that it isn't the time, that it stands contrary to what we've always done to keep the server population high and competitive.

This only changed recently with the revelation of people actually leaving to pursue a more hardcore experience elsewhere. I am of course dubious about the truth of those claims, but regardless, there is something about the server that doesn't sit well. And I think it is very obvious what it is.

We've always opened ourselves up to any and all players. We are very fortunate to have long term players dig in their heels. But if you want to cut it down to simplicity, there are two kinds of players with opposing expectations out of RP and a very, very fine line separating them.

That line is permadeath.

Therefore, you see that when we come down for permadeath, we side with one group of players. If we continue to deny it, we side with the other. No matter what the outcome, there is going to be disappointment.

In my personal opinion, I am with Ron in that permadeath is a deadly thing to put in players' hands. I think you all roleplay well and have great fun in Amia, but abuse and exploitation continue to run rampant with other rules. I should think that will have to cease before the playerbase can be trusted to off each other permanently at whim.

I would agree - very grudgingly - to have my main PC permakilled. But it would end my career in Amia. I do not have what it takes to create another worthwhile character on this server, and the death of my main PC is literally the game over. Going through my ridiculously complicated process of creating another successful character would then become more chore than fun, especially if that character will be slaughtered shortly after walking into the server.

I am for permadeath in only a very limited sense. Within DM Events.

The counter was "oh, then people will stop coming to DM Events!"

That is not how this works.

I believe a DM has a responsibility to inform you about the threat of permadeath. Permadeath should be a story-appropriate consequence that the player is aware of before ever undertaking actions that would lead to it. I think it should be a risk vs. reward thing.

You want to assassinate Mark Dorne? Ok. But here's the rub: if you die in battle, you die for realz. If Dorne goes down, the server will react accordingly (and likely in your favor, because you took a great risk).

It isn't so much forced permadeath as, I suppose, threatened permadeath. Where permadeath is the differentiating factor between whether you succeed, or whether you succeed with flying colors. (The more risk you take in your endeavor, the bigger the reward you reap, and permadeath is the ultimate risk.)

Beyond that, and judging from many responses in this thread, I don't know that Amia can palate permadeath.

Sorry to say, but if you want to allow for permadeath, you're going to need a wipe beforehand, as what will likely occur is there will be a considerable gap between those who own (those who have high-level characters or have been around a while) and the owned (the low-level characters and relative newcomers) - or rather, the gap between the two will widen considerably.

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Effelin of the Mark - Halfling Sneak